Outfitter nonres tag quota??

I hope they do not decrease NON-Resident Tags. In regards to Non-Resident Tag Quotas New Mexico is right in line with most States and Less generous than many other States like Wyoming and Colorado. They do not have bonus points and it is very difficult to draw as a non-resident. I have applied for Deer, Elk, Antelope, Big Horn Sheep, oryx and Ibex for 12 Years in a row without drawing a single tag. My wife is from New Mexico and we had the opportunity for her to hunt Antelope when we first got married. It was a lot of fun and I would like to hunt New Mexico at-least once or twice in my lifetime. I have put a lot of $money into New Mexico just trying to draw a tag however, if they were to get rid of the 12% it would make it almost impossible for a non-resident to draw and I would most likely put my money into other states that are more reasonable with non-residents. Over the next 10 years me, my wife and my dad will put $3,600 into New Mexico with the $20 non refundable fees.
 
JFWRC I suport your draw by choice idea! PM me if I can help you get that passed!!!!!WE are on the same page and yes it WILL change the draw for the good if anyone sits down and does the math they will know it would fix 80% of this mess!!!That was in place in the 90s and everyone drew tags then!Let me know I got your back on this one!!!!!!!!!!
 
Jim,

Thank you for answering those questions. I am surprised, but guess I should not be, that you do believe it is right for a non-resident to have better odds of drawing a license in most hunt codes than a resident does.
The future of hunting that we need to be most concerned about is about local opportunity. The 90 percent quota would mean 3,500 more big game licenses for residents. It does not go as far as Oregon or some other states, but it is a fairly standard quota. Right now the low 78 percent means that non-residents get better odds than New Mexico residents do in over two-thirds of hunt codes.

NM Paul,
The New Mexico Wildlife Federation is older than the National Wildlife Federation by about 20 years. NMWF was founded in 1914, NWF in the 30s. We are separate organizations, separately funded. NMWF is completely autonomous. NMWF is an "affiliate" of NWF, which only means that we pay $37 per year to NWF and get one vote on resolutions passed at an annual meeting of all the affiliates. If you want to compare NMWF to other orgs I suggest you look at other western, southern and some of the midwestern state wildlife federations, like Montana Wildlife Federation, Wyoming Wildlife Federation, etc. Our place tends to be as a policy voice for the average hunter and angler who often gets left out of decisions, in favor of catering to just the wealthy and elite. Examples of NMWF work would be to stop the precedent of charging $7,500 access fees for us to hunt our own public land, etc.

Someone asked about my personal hunting experience. I've hunted as long as I can remember and in eastern Montana you can hunt big game at 12, and I have harvested big game animals ever since then. In New Mexico, since I've moved here, I've hunted pretty much everything and absolutely love the state. Someone asked my favorite type of weapon...hard to choose. I hunt with bow, muzzleloader (primitive and inline), rifle and shotgun. If I had to pick a favorite it is a 45-70 Shilo Sharps made in Big Timber, MT that my dad bought me as a graduation present. quite some time ago.
Do my kids hunt? I have a daughter who is six and in first grade and another who is three. Both have been hunting with me frequently. My three-year-old mostly for ducks. My six year old has been with me on all types of hunts. This year she was even with me when I got a bull elk with my bow, and also for spring turkey. I am going to try to embed a picture, but do not often post on discussion forums and may need advice if it does not work.
I'm happy to answer questions, but don't check the forum every day, so please do not be offended if I do not immediately respond to questions.

Jim, Can't remember if I said this here or over on bowsite, but I asked Garth and Bob for a write-up of suggested compromise from the outfitter perspective so I could present it to the membership/board before the legislative session began. Did not get it.

Thanks,

Jeremy
 
165josie_elk.jpg
 
Okay, I think I've got this figured out. Here is my six-year old (when she was still five, this spring). On a turkey hunt with me. Just me and her. She has learned how to work a push-button yelper pretty well.

6734img_4069.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-11 AT 06:26PM (MST)[p]Jeremy, thanks for finally responding.

Cute pics of your little girl. Hunting with my kids is the highlight of my life.

The question I have is WHY would NMWF be affiliated with the NWF. They are an extreme environmentalist group, and those rarely if ever side with hunters, or those that make their living off the land?

One vote as an affiliate cannot be that significant.

Second question, what is the game plan to replace the revenue that will no longer be received from the Non Res?

I see a much bigger problem than a few non res tags not going to residents. That is the lack of funding currently for the G&F. Not enough wardens in the field. Rampant poaching, over hunted units (because of the need for funds), dwindling deer herd, a landowner elk tag system that needs major work...etc.

How did NMWF determine that going after a few thousand non resident tags was more important than some of the above issues?

If this bill passes, we will be throwing the baby out with the bath water. We will take a G&F department that is not funded enough to enforce game laws and put them in worse financial straits.

Dont tell me the state of NM is going to step in and save the day.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-11 AT 11:32PM (MST)[p]Hi Jeremy,

Glad you and your Girls have had some great hunting here in New Mexico...great pictures!

Thank you for returning and answering some of our questions...if you don't mind, I might bother you with a few others?

What is NMWF's position regarding dissolution of the Game Commission, and absorbtion of G&F by EMNRD?

What is the reasoning behind specifically singling out the Outfitter Quota? In the context of your apparent interest, wouldn't it be fair to cut the allocations for each pool by half, arriving at a Resident quota of 89%, with 6% and 5% going to the respective NR pools?

Apart from the quite substantially increased (roughly 5-6x per tag) lisence fees paid directly to our Department by quota species Non-Resident hunters, what is your perspective on how our state's economy will be otherwise impacted by the the NR reduction, and elimination of the Guided allocation?

What is your thinking regarding establishment of quotas for New Mexico's 'premier' big game species?

And again, would you mind clarifying NMWF's position concerning the Mexican Wolf in New Mexico?

Thanks for your consideration Jeremy
 
Great Western,

NMWF is strongly opposed to doing away with the Game Commission and absorbing the Department into EMNRD. We have a fairly longstanding problem of the Commission not listening to the voice of average sportsmen, but doing away with the commission would take our voice away completely. It would also further politicize the agency. Lastly it would mix sportsmen dollars in with general fund money. All bad ideas across the board. We put a report out that basically says problems can be fixed by just running the commission like it is supposed to be run, get the pay-to-play out, honor the sportsmen seats, etc.

The quota should be applied to oryx, ibex and bighorn...if that is what you are asking.

The big bad wolf...you can look up my old post where I went into this in detail. But in short the North American Model should be applied and a hunting season held and state management (including hunts) upon hitting the recovery goal. If you want another long and emotional discussion about the 10 wolves or so in NM, have at it, but please keep me out of it. It is an issue decided at the federal level.

On the economic impact of more licenses going to residents: there will not be a reduction in the number of hunters in the field. Sporting goods stores are over 95 percent dependent on resident hunters, so they would be better off with more residents hunting. Non-resident hunters simply do not come here and buy guns, bows, ammo etc. A lot of shops are struggling from the steady reduction in resident opportunity we have been seeing. For a gas station or motel in Reserve or Grants, a resident of albuquerque pays the same rates as a resident of Amarillo, but residents spend more days in the field, scouting etc. In terms of outfitters...the NMCOG put out a report in 2003 that says they had 20,504 clients a year. The draw permits from the 12 percent set-aside that year were a little over 2,000. So according to the NM Council of Outfitters and Guides, the 12 percent mandate makes up about 11 percent of clients. Most outfitter business comes from clients who choose to hire them, not those who have to hire them through the set-aside. Also keep in mind that we are including the unknown percentage of hunters who are just paying an outfitter for better odds to get into the 12 percent pool. It is impossible to track how many are just paying an outfitter for better odds. I tried to ask this question of Jim, but my phrasing was not very clear, so I will not quote his answer. Also, the percentage of licenses being used by non-residents mandated to hire an outfitter has not gone above four percent in at least the last four years.

In terms of your ideas about compromise, keep in mind those have all so far been rejected by the Council of Outfitters and Guides. When Senator Munoz ran that online survey which was taken by over 1,700 people (resident and non-resident), the largest area of agreement was that the 12 percent set-aside is not fair. People want to be able to have the option to hire an outfitter or not based on services. If NMCOG is going to fight any change no matter what, why should NMWF try to preserve a highly unpopular subsidy program that makes up a tiny portion of outfitter business? We've asked NMCOG to bring forth compromise ideas in writing and have gotten nothing.

As far as Game and Fish, the bill going to a 90 percent quota actually increases revenue for the Department. You may already know that.

NMPaul,

The bill increases revenue for Game and Fish by creating a general "game license" like Arizona, Utah and other states have, but it is cheaper than those states. Pretty simple and good solution that also brings in more federal revenue from the Pittman-Robertson funds that are based partially on how many "licensees" a state has. As I'm sure you probably know the PR funding is from the dedicated tax we pay on guns and ammo, that goes to support conservation.

As far as NWF, the closest regional office is in Colorado, most of the folks who work there hunt. And they have helped us on some things like with legal assistance on getting the White's Peak land trade reversed. The trade lost thousands of acres for the public, lost a lot of quality, and shifted over 40 elk licenses away from the draw. NWF's help was key in turning that around. We are separate organizations as I explained above, we can choose whether or not to affiliate as you point out. I could go on...but if you have specific concerns I am happy to bring them forth. Stop by the office any time. 121 Cardenas NE, Albuquerque or call 299-5404.

Totally agree with you on not enough wardens in the field. Richardson wrongly applied an across the board hiring freeze to the department, even though our money is separate and it did nothing to help the general fund. Martinez promised during the campaign to restore those positions. NMWF and other sportsmen groups have written asking for this to happen. The quota bill for the reasons explained above, is revenue-positive.

Lastly, one thing I forgot to say about my hunting experience earlier in response to the questions. Something I've done the last few years is try to introduce at least one new person to hunting each year. For instance in the last few years I've helped four people get their first elk.

Hunting and fishing and getting outdoors (but primarily hunting) has enriched my life and I'm really lucky to be able to work on ensuring that our great american tradition of public ownership of wildlife and hunting for the average person can continue. I also only buy beef, pork etc for special occasions. I grew up on wild game and my girls are too.

If anyone on here who reads this has any questions, feel free to call the office or stop by any time. The main goal of NMWF is to give average sportsmen a voice for themselves in issues affecting the future of hunting and fishing in NM. We don't try to go behind closed doors and make deals for sportsmen, we ask for the doors to be thrown open and public comment taken seriously. Everyone should share their opinions with their senators and reps on this issue and where you personally stand on going to a 90 percent resident quota. It does not go as far as some states like Oregon (with a 95 percent quota on deer and elk and 97 percent on antelope and black bear) but 90 percent is a widely used quota. And the current law gives residents worse odds than non-residents in over two-thirds of hunt codes, that needs to change.

Jeremy
 
Being a life long resident of NM I support the new SB196 in the legislature. For one, I have not drawn a single NM cow Elk tag much less bull Elk tag in the last 7 years. I have been drawing NR Deer tags in Colorado for the last 8 years Because the NM Deer Draw is as bad as the Elk draw. If Iam lucky I get to help my friends Daughter out on her youth cow elk tag but this will be her last year I hope because she'll be off to college. I would hope future Legislation would include all big game tags in NM under the 10% quota for all NR hunters. Have you ever been on a NM Antelope hunt and theres just 2 residents and 15 Non-Residents on a privat Land owners ranch hunting.ITS just not fair because the Antelope belong to the people of the state of NM, not the Private land owners.
 
Great post Jeremy, I may not agree with you on everything that yourself and NMWF stand for, but, I also do not agree with everything (for lack of a better term) the other side stands for either.

I am sure that hunting will survive what ever happens in the next few weeks in NM.

I would like things to do better than survive. I would like them to improve, and not just odds.

I hope that we have a better funded G&F, more wardens in the field, and steps are taken to rebuild our deer herds.

I plan on re reading your post and digesting it a little better. I am sure I will have questions, but, I may take you up on the offer of a phone call.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-11 AT 10:00PM (MST)[p]Hey thanks Jeremy,

Glad to hear NMWF is in opposition of the 'consolidation' of our wildlife agencies into general administration

Thank you for stating you position regarding quotas for our native Bighorn, and the unique opportunities NM provides for the imported Oryx and Iranian Ibex

I asked again about the Wolf because I was not clear about your previous post...am not sure about how the NAWM applies to an introduced race of proven livestock killers? not sure about the impact these "10" wolves have on wild ungulates during calving/fawning, or under otherwise compromised and vulnerable conditions? or about their potential impact to hunters and trappers in the Greater Gila?

But I'm not really interested in some 'long and emotional dicussion' either, so I'll just leave it at that

As far as NR vs Resident spending DURING respective hunt periods...well, we have been discussing that topic a little bit here, and it remains somewhat moot as to who it is that actually contributes more to the State's concurrent economy PER LISENCE...neverminding the 'NEW' money NRs bring in

Also, the inference that the NR allocation reduction will generate MORE revenue for the Department has never been quite convincing, to me anyway...it is just much too speculative

Finally, in the spirit of the "doors thrown open" philosophy you profess, I would invite you to come around and visit with us more often...and share NMWF's agendas with the very wide readership of your fellow sportsmen here, who would most certainly be appreciative of knowing what your federation is pursuing with concern to our collective wildlife interests; the reasoning and logic behind such; and what NMWF would suggest regarding ways we might ALL work together to ensure that New Mexico remains one of the premier big game states in the West

Thanks again for your time, Jeremy
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-11 AT 09:39PM (MST)[p]A comment was posted on another site regarding the 78/22 split. It was said that ever since the split, it has gotten harder and harder for residents to draw a tag.
I'll post my response for your evaluation and commentary:


"If you've had the same 78/22 split since 1997, yet the resident draw gets harder over time, I have a hard time believing the 78/22 split is the problem.

What have the tag numbers and resident draw pools done over that time?

let's look at the numbers:

*Elk 2002 resident

41,707 applicants

25,712 successful; 61.65%

*Elk 2010 resident;

41,089 applicants

16,400 successful; 39.91% [36.21% reduction (9,312 tags)]

//////////////////

*Elk 2002 non res

12,943 applicants

5,607 successful; 43.32%

*Elk 2010 non res;

14,074 applicants

3,910 successful; 27.78% [30.26% reduction (1,697 tags)]

It would appear your decreasing Elk draw odds is a direct result of a declining tag allotment. Obviously, the residents took a bigger hit "over time" from the Commission. That seems a little odd at first glance."
 
Yes but it is still easier for them to just blame us non res for the problems.Most will not even look to see why the draw odds are better for non res in some areas.LIke that fewer non res are applying for tags so of coarse the odds will look better.Easier to fake it and get people on there side by telling them what they want to hear.Its amazing to me how some have figured it out how to draw tags and some have not.Then people come on here try to help show the people how to draw tags and they just blow them off.Because they can not show them how to draw that 16d tag they dont want to know how to draw any other unit.The good thing is alot of residents do understand and are great people.They make coming to new mexico a fun trip and enjoy sharing what they have.
 
If my numbers are correct, the residents took too big of a hit and some tags from the NR pool need to be moved over to the resident side to get back to "parity".
I'm guessing it's from an "accounting error" in the way they allocate the NR tags "from" the resident pool, after they have reduced the total allotment, rather than reducing the resident portion and the NR portion equally.

If residents want to change the split to 90/10 I don't have a problem with it. It's a resident issue. Just drop the spin on all the numbers, give everyone the "whole story" and let them decide.

I don't care for the divisive tactics of NMWF, but I doubt the Outfitters and LO's were real receptive to dropping their tag allocations. I'm sure it's a "good ol' boys" network but it could have been handled differently in my opinion.

This whole hunting fiasco, from the Antelope deal to now, has gotten enough attention, and pissed off enough people, that there are two Bills to ELIMINATE the Game Commission. Is it really a good idea to have some desk jockey deciding your hunting future? In my opinion, these two bills are a direct result of the contentious tactics used, putting residents against the landowners and Game Commission during the APlus meetings.

I could actually join and support NMWF if they changed the way they approached these desired changes.
 
Bob, thanks for posting a direct link from my other post NM Attorney General Opinion. I think it is directly related to this topic. It appears from the letter, NM Game and Fish must of had some concerns over the quotas to request an opinion from the AG's Office just before the Legislative session started for 2011.

This letter had some insight to include putting Bighorn, Ibex, Orxy into the quota mix.


http://www.nmag.gov/Opinions/Opinion.aspx?OpID=1133
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-11 AT 08:17PM (MST)[p]"support the nmwf if they changed the way they approached these desired changes"

i would suggest that there is most probably a very specific reason as to why the federation uses such 'approaches'

i would again caution EVERYone to take a fresh perspective and have another good look at what the federation's communications have (or have not) been, here on this forum and otherwise, before offering ANY support to the NMWF

people living in a predominantly bi-partisan culture are often under the rather mistaken conviction that they MUST support either one side of a contention or the other...which is certainly NOT necessarily true at all, though it appears that NMWF would intend to appeal to that misguided tendency

as you said somewhere before Bob....'divisive tactics'

so please, Everyone...eyes open, and keep sharp!
 
NMWF
QUESTION: HOW MANY WOLVES??????????????
So what is the limit number on the RECOVERY of the Wolves is it 50 a 100 I'm sure alot of hunters,ranchers, livestock owners wildlife lovers would like to know. How many more then the ten(10) that are here already are going to be show up in the next ten years or so,Because I'm just wondering how long those extra tags will be available for the resident's to use before they are taken away to feed those wolves that are coming with your blessing to New Mexico or are they going to be on welfare and live around the cities.Sorry But you can lead the ones who want a change by promising them it all nice and you're going to help them in their quest for more hunting time, BUT we have seen that before too Obama maded promises too. I'm sure it will be a fun time to be a ranch or livestock owner in NM when all those "Mexican wolves" show up from up north show up.

Ask Wyoming and Idaho how their Wolf season is running.Ask them if they could take it all back 15 years to those levels of wolves they promised to stay inide of those limits(What limits)they found out that that number could and will moved to what ever the courts said they will be and who was there backing it NWF
Ask a Idaho or Wyoming hunter how great it is to hear those howls at night and then hunt all the next week just trying to find a animal to hunt. Yep that is what is headed your way.

I guess that a reason the Landowner are being targeted by NMWF for their tags and their outfitter who sell those tags for them is NMWF has to start think several years in advance to feed hungry mouths that will on their way to NM if you sheep don't pull you're heads up for air. Hell instead of wolves trade us some elk and deer and you can have some of our lions from here.
Wait until the populations in those cities start voting against the hunters with the backing of these groups then you feel the pain of loss like we did out here. Guess because we lived we don't want to see it happen to NM the same way,The sad part we did the same thing we see you doing,Sorry but it's headed there even if you don't see it yet. Hope those kids will get to be hunting when they are my age.I doubt it will be even close to what you see in your mind and what reality will give you.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 

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