Paunsaugunt Tag Cuts Peaying Off?

[Kingsdeer]

Here?s some pretty good evidence that the efforts to recover the Pauns ARE paying off. Check out the ?VIDEO? link on www.llotp.com . We haven't seen deer like this in these numbers for a while. All bucks on the clip were filmed in the last month. All live within a mile of each other and all of the best bucks on the clip will probably die the first week of September. While none are great, some are pretty good and given another year or two would be downright nasty. Not only that, given another couple of years to breed, our Paunsaugunt recovery would be well on it's way. This is by no means a representation of all of the bucks on Seives bench or in the Alton area, just a tiny cross-section.

Credit must be given where it is due and our hat is off the Adam Bronson and the change of heart shown by the Fish and Game in managing this particular deer herd. SFW definitely had a role in applying the political pressure to get tags cut and a new management objective established. Now, somehow we need to finish the job. The Utah big game board, SFW, local sportsmen and anyone really interested, need to demand the Alton CWMU step up to the plate and take tag cuts like everyone else ? not just glut themselves on everyone else?s sacrifice. At $11,000 per tag and with a new fence to keep deer off the Alfalfa, five or six tags a year had ought to be fair compensation? After all, the deer were there first.

Don,
I guess what I am saying is that YES, the Paunsaugunt recovery has begun and our thanks is sincere - but from my point of view (and lot's of other average guys) WHY GROW THEM IF IT IS JUST TO BE SHOT IN SEPTEMBER BY THE RICH. We don't even get to hunt these deer on our premium, limited entry Paunsaugunt rifle hunt. What's left after the CWMU slaughter are safely locked away during our rifle and archery hunts even though they will migrate down later to spend most of the year on public land.. Our public land means nothing given our hunt dates. Our public land that is habitat for OUR PUBLIC DEER for most of the year. Is habitat that big of an issue on the Pauns? So big that we have to pay for it with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Utah?s best deer year after year. Most of us don't think so. Hope we can talk in November. Hope we can get some thinking changed.



Sincerely

Lowlanders

P.S. : Don?t shoot the videographer. We are amateur?s but learning.


Trivia: Do deer wink? Check it out???.

 

[30inchbucks]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-04 AT 09:46PM (MST)[p]Kingsdeer,
I'm with you. They need to cut their tags too. And the season dates need to be changed on both sides. They have no business hunting with a rifle on September 1st. The nice deer in your video don't have a chance. They'll all die come September 1st. I agree something needs to change. If they could only survive a couple of more years and breed, that would be sweet! Everyone take a look at the video and while your watching it think to yourself, "if I had 11,000 dollars I could shoot one of these deer" as it stands now I have no chance. Notice I said "shoot" and not hunt.

 

[Tuffbucker]

All the politial stuff aside........THOSE ARE SOME AWESOME BUCKS!! I didnt see any problems with the video....amateur or not, thats some AWESOME footage.


TUFF

 

[RACKMASTER]

WHEN I DREW a PAUNSAGUNT TAG in 2000 and scouted I saw BIG BUCKS LOWERLAND AND THEY HEADED SOUTH IN TO AZ A FEW DAY BEFORE MY HUNT!
I did see A MONSTER buck better than any in that video and I walked due to a bad shooting angle(would have had to shoot his ass). SAW ALOT OF "OK" BUCKS BUT ONLY 1 MONSTER! MONSTER MULEY VIDEOS RUINED ME! LOL!
rackmaster

 

[fin little]

Good Tunes. Im stuck with an antique computer and 33k, but I can here the tunes. Like I've never heard it before. Oh! and Don lets cut those conservation tags in half too. Give us a sign! It's about the deer and not raising money. Right?

 

[AZBuckSnort]

How do you guys feel about the increase in permits in AZ Unit 12B due to the supplemental tag drawing held in AZ after the regular draw? Do you have concerns about the potential for over-harvest or is it nothing to worry about in regards to that part of the Paunsaugunt deer herd?

 

[conch]

I wonder if most folks understand that the Heaton Ranch known as the Alton CWMU is populated by PAUNSAUGUNT deer. The deer summer in the Alton area and migrate in the early fall. The deer spend at least six months on mostly public held lands inside the Paunsaugaunt unit. In other words; this is not two separate deer herds. They are one in the same. This fact seems like a no brainier for all us folks that live near, but after reading other posts, I'm surprised how many well-schooled muley fanatics don't understand this.
Mr. Peay,
It's time to stand up and use some "political" clout to influence the Alton CWMU to do their part in restoring the Paunsaugunt deer herd to its potential. Lets put "management" back into the Cooperative Wildlife MANAGEMENT units? Fair and equitable, I believe was the terminology used when selling Posted hunting units to Utahns's about fifteen years ago.
Just for grins lets calculate a few numbers. A conservatives estimate of about 30 tags per year for the Alton CWMU, times about $11,000.00 per tag times about fifteen years; that's about $5,000.000.00
Don, give us some small clue that SFW does care about wildlife and not just the "buck!? I don't think anyone is trying to take away the Heatons cash cow. We just want what's fair! Currently, it's far from it!

 

[conch]

In my opinion, few Pauns deer make it all the way into Arizona, for extended periods of time. I doubt that the additional tags issued by AZ will make much of a difference. Realistically speaking, except for a few hunters crowding the Utah line, I doubt more than a hand full of Utah bucks are taken off the 12B hunt each year.

 

[ktg]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-04 AT 01:40PM (MST)[p]Did you notice in the video all of the very short points, no really deep forks. Each year the greatest bucks have been killed, not hunted, killed, on the Alton, leaving the 'crab claws' and other unwanted bucks to breed. Every year it's getting worse. I didn't see any truely monsterous bucks but give them a couple years and they would be. Too bad they'll all be killed next month. And by the way, remind me again why the Alton gets any tags at all. So that a public hunter or 2 can have access to these bucks in sept? I think it was a poor idea from the beginning.

 

[RACKMASTER]

I thought all(well most) unit 12b were from up north!
RACKMASTER

 

[Kingsdeer]

Hey Jim,
Enjoyed your article in MC. Yes, we are concerned about some Arizona issues and hope to get the gap bridged with the Alton boys and get together to ask for some changes ? especially with doe hunts on the Kaibab. One of the CWMU?s arguments for taking so many big bucks early over the past decade has been that if they don't, Arizona will with their late hunts and they would just as soon the money stayed in Utah. Problem is, they take theirs, Arizona still takes theirs, public hunters have taken theirs of course and pretty soon the deer are gone. We are working with Wade (our chapter head of SFW) to get some more signs up on 89 both on summer range and down between Page and Kanab where the migration mortality is so high.
Just a couple of more things ? we fully understand that it was the public who shot the hell out of the Pauns. It wasn?t their fault and was a natural consequence of many things. Some of these are outlined on our ?numbers to consider? link on our site. Mostly, as Don points out, there was no management objective in place that allowed the DWR to manage for trophies. Buck to doe ratio on the P has always been great so tags were upped and upped. Deer were killed and killed ? and you can only kill them each once. Hunt dates were changed disallowing public rifle hunters to hunt deer that summer on the CWMU so they were relegated to half the herd - and they kilt em.
Now, with the political help of SFW and some aforementioned knowledgeable local gurus, there is a new management objective in place that allows for tags to be cut based on an average-age-at-harvest management goal. And it's working. Thanks to Adam Bronson and the DWR?s new mindset on management of this unit, there is a good chance of recovery. But recovery for what and who?

While we are very excited about this, we still feel that giving 35-40 tags EVERY YEAR to the Alton CWMU over the past decade or more has also been a contributing factor in the unit's decline and at $11,000 a pop has more than bought the right for our mule deer herd to exist partially on their land as they always have. In fact, it should have bought us the next century! How come they can charge us soooooo much for the use of habitat while they pay a pittance to run cattle on our state sections or public acreage?

When this thing started tags were $1000 per. Now they are ten times that. Have tag numbers been cut as their value escalated to maintain a fair compensation rate or is there greed and politics involved? Compensation should be fair and the system should give average hunters more of a chance. Most of all, bucks that grow up on the Alton CWMU should all have a reasonable chance of surviving a hunt or it is not hunting. They don't. Fair chase? I guess fair is the question and there are many differing opinions. We are just getting ours out there because we believe that most Utahns who put in for the vaunted Paunsaugunt don't really know what they are getting? compared to what they should be getting.
Thanks to Brian for this forum. I am sure it takes a lot of effort and judgment. Hope we aren't ever too far out of line but we would like to complete the recovery. We would like to see whoever is in charge quit doling these huge bucks out to the wealthy like candy. At least for a while.

kg Lowlanders

 

[ktg]

Well said Kingsdeer. IMO, the Alton should receive regular landowner tags for regular season dates. This should be fair compensation for their land ownership. The number of tags should be based upon the acres owned, as I believe it is for other landowners. Why do they get such special treatment? I realize it's because of the CWMU program. Again, bad idea to begin with. It may work great on other areas but not this one. The cost has been too great for the public compared to the reward.

 

[azwildcat1952]

A friend of mine from AZ drew the archery tag after a 12 year wait. I will going with him on the hunt and any information on where some good bucks are would be appreciated. He scouted 3 days a week ago but did not see too much. He is an excellent hunter and we are looking forward to a real good hunt. We will stay 3 weeks if we have too. A hunt of a lifetime as you know since it is very difficult to draw a tag in Az and will probably get worse. Hope it does not happen to Utah as well. Thank you very much.