Percussion Ignition?

Horniac · Sep 19, 2002

This may be a stupid question, but is a 209 primer considered a percussion ignition for purposes of muzzleloadding regulations?

I am going to be hunting Nevada, and a recent issue of Blackpowder Hunting had a state by state chart stating what was legal and what wasn't. The magazine apparently sent standard questionaires to all the state game agencies which they used in filling out the chart. The chart indicated that a 209 primer was not legal in Nevada. The NDOW regulations appear to have no prohibition against a 209 primer, and just list the legal ignition systems,which include percussion ignition systems. Am I missing something, or do you think this is just a typo?

Thanks.

bluelk · Sep 20, 2002

Horniac: The 209 primer is used on inline systems only. That is what they are referring to I think. A percussion system is generally considered a sidehammer rifle.

Horniac · Sep 21, 2002

Bluelk:

Thanks for the response.

My Knight MK-85 has an in-line ignition and uses #11 percussion caps.

My Remington is also in-line but I changed out the #11 nipple to a 209 using the conversion kit because of the hotter flame. It still uses a firing pin (i.e. percussion?).

I looked in my Lyman Black Powder Handbook by Sam Fadala and the 209's appear to fall under an old re-invented technology called a primer ignition system.

I think I will call the NDOW and get their interpretation. I know that Idaho specifically precludes the use of 209 primers for muzzleloader hunts.

If 209's are not legal in Nevada as well, that may be something for a guy to consider before changing over from a #11 cap to the 209, since you perhaps just eliminated using your muzzleloader in two states.

Geez, all these different regulations are confusing...........

bluelk · Sep 22, 2002

Horniac: You know what's causing all these different regulations don't you?

azbiggame · Sep 23, 2002

BLAKE:Let ME guess what N.D.O.W.told you about 209 Primers and Muzzeloaders---NOT LEGAL,during a Muzzeloader Hunt.In the Nv. Hunt Book,it mentions Percussion Ignition System,I believe this is ment to say #11 caps or Musket Caps,not 209's.In the EARLY proclamations it mentions something about only "Exposed Nipples"on INLINES.Get your Knight ready for 115,it will work just Fine in November.Oh yea,just got through "Digesting" MY 231 Muz. Deer tag,oh well out of the DEER MODE and know ready for N.M. Muz. ELK---Bruce

fiercecrow · Sep 23, 2002

If you are asking about the NV hunts on the 22nd of September you are a little behind the eight ball for deer - That was over the 22nd. I had a NV tag for muzzle loader actually three of us residents did and all three of us did very well - I took a 27 inch 4x4 and my buddy took a 26 inch 5x6 (oh yeah he shoots a T/C Omega, it has a 209 ignition system) I shoot a traditional style rifle in the T/C renegade. I am relly good friend with several of the Wardens here in the Elko area and have never been told that the 209 ignition is against the law. Hell one of the Wardens went to the range with my friend and I because he couldnt believe the three shot groups we were shooting at 100 yards.

Horniac · Sep 23, 2002

AzBigGame:

I know to well how hard those tags go down........I'm sure you will make up for it in New Mexico with lots of elk meat for the freezer.

Fiercecrow:

I am hunting the late muzzleloader season in 115 in November. I already have my Knight dialed in. I was just getting another gun dialed in with the 209 using 777 and thought the ignition system might be better for the wet/cold weather we are anticipating.

Bluelk:

I am glad I am not the only one confused. AzBigGame and Fiercecrow, both Nevada residents, have different interpretations as to whether the 209 is legal. It appears that the intent of the NDOW may be to prohibit the 209 from being used, but their regulations appear to be poorly written. I think they would have a problem citing you for it and making it stick in court since it is not very clear. It sounds like something that you may get different answers on from different people in the department depending on who answers the phone or who you talk to. The author of the chart in Blackpowder Hunting stated that some of the people responding to the questionaire didn't even understand some of the questions - for example, when posed with questions such as; is a a closed breech legal?, are sabots legal?, the answer was "what's that?"

I have sent an e-mail to the enforcement division of NDOW and will let you all know what they say if they respond.

bluelk · Sep 24, 2002

Horniac: Very poorly worded regulations seem to be the norm amongst bureaucracts. You're right about many hunters not knowing the difference between an open breech and a closed breech, but I find it difficult to understand how someone, at this point in time, doesn't know what a sabot is!

The reason for all this confusion is simple: there have been so many changes in the muzzleloading industry, and so many wild claims from manufacturers, the hunt regulating officials are terribly confused. Let alone the hunters.

I have preached and preached, and predicted and predicted, that these wild claims and advances are going to have a DRASTIC affect on muzzleloading hunting in the next few years, and these changes are not going to be for the better.

fiercecrow · Sep 25, 2002

I stand corrected, Good luck on your late hunt! I will be speaking with the Warden tomorrow 9/26/02 and will ask him face to face about the the 209 ignition - I will get back with you with a correct answer straight from the Elko field Office!

One more thing - BE PATIENT on that late hunt! Do not shoot the first one you see they are bringing some GREAT animals out of that area!

Horniac · Sep 25, 2002

Fiercecrow:

Thanks for asking the warden about the 209 ignition. I sent an e-mail to the enforcement division as well asking them for an interpretation. Haven't heard back from them yet. Will keep you posted.

Thanks for the advice for the late hunt. I definately don't plan on shooting the first buck I see as I have heard the same thing. Just hope the weather cooperates.

Bluelk:

The regulations seem to be changing every year. I don't think it is so much the hunters as it is the people that work at the state fish and game offices who are continuously modifying the regulations to keep them abreast of the newest technologies. I think they are more confused than the hunters. I wouldn't rely on any interpretation from the fish and game unless it was in writing. Heck, the 209's are even illegal in Oregon according to Black Powder Magazine.

fiercecrow · Sep 26, 2002

Horniac,
Good news! I spoke with Warden Walt Campbell here in the Elko field Office and he said that the 209 ignition is fine to use because the regulations do not specifically state that they are not a legal ignition. Hey I noticed you read Black Powder Hunting, You may have seen some of my work in there for Parker Hydra-con Conicals. Keep you eye out for the next issue and the Parker ad the picture of the deer in the ad was my Buddy Sterling's buck that was taken this year in area 6. Sterling and I hunted together he took his 26 inch buck on Thursday the 12th and I took my 27 inch buck on Friday the 13th! Who said that is an unlucky day? the two bucks were shot at 1:30 in the afternoon less then 500 apart. Sterling shot his for about 10 yards and I was inside 6 FEET when I shot mine in his bed. I was abouve him and shot him between the shoulder blades. I actually saw the sabot bounce off his back! Well I hope I was of some help to you! Anyway good luck! and Check out the Parker Hydra-Con bullets the accuracy is amazing and the expansion is awesome!

Happy Hunting!
Crow

Horniac · Sep 26, 2002

Fiercecrow:

Thanks for talking to Warden Campbell and clearing up the confusion.

I have seen the ads in Black Powder Hunting and read some of the articles about the Hydra-Con bullets. I have read lots of good things about them but have yet to try them out...Congratulations on both yours and your buddy Sterling's buck. Those are two awesome bucks for a muzzleloader! I am amazed that both of you got that close - 6 feet is truly astonishing. I will definately be on the look out for the next issue to take a look at the picture of the buck.

Thanks again for your help.

fiercecrow · Sep 27, 2002

Horniac,
6 feet was a fluk as you and I know but I will tell you that it was so hard to maintain my sanity I was trembling and struggling to just breath. Everything was perfect, the wind the sun and the time of day - it was 1:30 pm that ol' buck was sawing logs, just dreaming of "sweet November" any way i would like to chat with you some time about the Hydra-con it is a fantastic bullet - from 6 feet to 200 yards it will do the trick! Anyway good luck my wife is hollering better run!

crow