PP's for residents

A

alaska_bou

Active Member
Messages
161
Why won't the G&F start a preferece point system for resident elk, deer and antelope? I support the idea, it would be great to know that I WILL draw my favorite areas every X years and can plan over-the-counter hunts between draws.

Especially in "premium" areas such as 82 late deer, 100 elk, etc, residents would, in time, actually have a chance to hunt the best of their own state rather than throwing their application away each year at <2% draw odds having nothing to show for it the next year? Go compare resident odds to max point non resident (especially non resident special) odds...

Considering MOST areas can be drawn in 6 years or less, this would be a fair system for hunters of all ages, IMO. What is everyone's opinion here?
 
Its brought up on a couple of occassions and shot down. Not sure why, but do agree with you. I think numerous items should get address that would make things run smooth. I think if are applying for Moose, Sheep, and Mt. goat they shoud keep your intial amount and then keep paying the processing fee until you draw. If you want to pull out your money down the road you can do so. It would be a lot easier on most to front a few hundred dollars one time then every year. Plus Game and Fish would be able to live off the interest on all that money. Also I think its high time that they separate archery and rifle. Folks needed to pick the weapon choice versus get a rifle tag and get to be able to hunt with a bow. Archery hunters can't hunt the rifle season.

Don't know just a couple more thoughts
 
The main answer to the OP question is because the majority of residents want the same chance as the next guy each year to draw a tag, rather than waiting for a number of years to even have a chance at drawing like nonresidents do in many of the LE units. The Wyoming F&G has those animal draws set up basically the same way as many other states do. The demand is out there and when they can take in thousands of dollars every year in application/license fees and keep it for any length of time they are getting a lot of interest on all that money before they refund it to the unsuccessful applicants. I'm sure it would be much more than doing it the way you mentioned, even though it would be easier for some. Again, supply and demand is the key and as long as they keep getting the numbers I imagine it will stay the way it is. Wyoming, IMHO, probably has as fair a way of doing the nonresident hunting opportunities as any western state. Also, I doubt that there is that big a percentage of nonresidents who draw a tag and hunt out there with both a bow and during rifle season in the same year because most people can't make two trips. It is, however, possible if the seasons run back to back and a person has the time to take a week or so with each weapon. Residents really should have as much opportunity in their state as possible to enjoy the sport and being able to hunt with both weapons if they draw and then buy an archery permit is a way some can do that. IMO it's not doing any big harm to the game populations through overkill. If it was I would imagine restrictions would be forthcoming.
 
The absolute last thing I'd want to see is a resident preference points.

The late deer 82 tag and unit 100 elk permits would not cycle through and allow you to hunt every 6 years.

If you look at unit 82 for an example...8 permits issued to residents and 360 people applying. You arent going to draw that permit in 6 years...matter of fact to cycle 360 people through that unit will take 45 years. So there will be people with 40 points and still no tag. Point systems create a "one and done" siuation of tag distribution.

Plus, with a point system, everyone is going to keep their max points for the very best units. I can assure you that there will be significant point creep as max point holders will only be concentrating on very few units.

Adopting a point system is a joke for the hardest to draw units, odds dont improve except for the max point holders. Further, it takes those with less than max points basically out of the drawing all-together for the best units.

Also, I dont believe its legal for the G&F to draw interest off the money sent in for application fees/licenses.
 
BuzzH--- I had hoped you would weigh in on this becasue after reading your reasoning a number of times on this PP stuff, I have sure gone into your camp! Your last sentence does surprise me though, because I always assumed that all that money went into an interest bearing account in all the state F&G Departments. If that's not the case in Wyoming, what would your reasoning be for them even taking in all that money and then having to return refunds to those who don't draw a tag? Would you, by chance, know who to contact to find out where that money goes until it's refunded to unsuccessful applicants?
 
Preference points make it tough. Especially on hard to draw units it turns into if you can live long enough to draw. But if your lucky you may draw a great area several times in a 10 year period or you may put in your whole life and never draw. I think if you talk to people in states that have preference points most do not like it, but not all.
 
TOPGUN,

I'm pretty sure most states are the same...and I dont believe they are allowed to draw interest off that money.

The reason most states want you to front the money is so they're assured before the drawing that the permits are paid for. I think they weed out those that are writing hot checks to pay for their permits...
 
That makes sense! I think I'll try to follow up on this when I get time, but even if they do put in to draw interest, what you mention would definitely eliminate problems in the draw because you have already committed by sending in the money---thanks!
 
Area 82 deer was an example, obviously an applicant cannot expect to draw every six years.

Lets use elk area 7 type 1. Resident odds are about 1 in 3, or 33%. With preference points you could expect to draw the tag every three years, granted an equal # of tags are issued with an equal # of applicants. I know many guys who applied in this unit for 5+ years with no success, while others seemingly draw every other year...

There is a difference between preference and bonus points. With a bonus point system everyone has a chance to draw, simply put those with more points have a better chance. Would you support moose and sheep solely on a random draw?

I disagree that most people would collect points to use on the "premium" units. Look at other states, the applicantions in each area balances out because hunters want to draw tags...

The fact that our Wyoming G&F is diven by dollars is true and beside the issue.
 
alaska_bou,

The draw odds for the so-called "premium" units would actually drop for following reasons:
*points will be very cheap ($7 or less).
* deer and elk points will not cycle through quickly because a resident can apply for a "premium" unit, gain a point & still hunt every year on a general license.
* online applications & the ability to buy points-only will increase the number of people holding points.

The thing I really dislike about points systems is they favor one group (max pointers) over the majority of applicants.


Here's a question for you, Bou. Do the odds for those NOT in the max point group get better or worse? If you look at the sheep points, I think you'll find that those not in the max point group will see their chances of drawing a tag drop exponentially.

The so called "premium" units in SW Wyo (30,31,100 elk; 101&102 deer)have such low draw odds that there will be 25+ years of applicants in the max pool. Those not in the max point pool will, most likely, never make it out of the random point pool.

I've said it before, but the only fair way to distribute high-demand, PUBLIC hunting licenses is on a purely random draw.
 
Here's another thing to think about. What happens when the Game & Fish cuts the quota substaintially in the "premium" units? Last year elk areas 30, 31, & 32 saw cuts of 30 to 60 percent. That shoots down any assumptions on how many years it will take to draw, and will dramatically add to the time it will take to cycle through points.
 
I think its pretty selfish to start a point system so you can draw a 30% odds tag...meanwhile trashing odds for all others.

If a person has applied for 5 years and not drawn unit 7 for elk...too bad. Keep applying and you'll draw.

By the statistics, its not that uncommon for someone to not draw a 30% tag for 5 years straight. Also not uncommon for some to draw 2-3-4 years in a row either.

I had a streak of 3 years in a row that I failed to draw my first choice antelope tag with over 80% odds of drawing. My wife, on the other hand, drew a deer unit with around 10% odds 2 out of 3 years...thats going to happen too.

But, the bottom line is, the drawing was EQUAL for everyone, every year.

I'm not if favor of preference point systems and not really in favor of bonus point systems either. In particular in states like Wyoming where residents have so much opportunity, including being able to hunt most of the state every year with general elk and general deer tags.

Rather than pi$$ing and moaning about not drawing a tag and trying to come up with a preference system...spend the same amount of energy scouting general areas, you'll not need to worry about drawing a LE unit.
 
I personally suppot a BONUS point system, go research the difference between bonus and preference. With bonus points, everyone has a chance.

If your opinion is correct, why did the overwhelming majority support a pp system for moose and sheep rather than a once in a lifetime, equal opportunity?

Why did they favor a pp point system for non residents?

Why are Idaho and New Mexico the only two western states with no pp or bonus point system?

I hunt a few states every year, what is being suggested is just not happening in other states like Colorado. Most areas take a point, good areas take a few points, premium areas take 10+. The difference is by applying for a great unit your not throwing you app away every year without anything to show for it.

Hey buzzh, do you apply for moose and sheep? Do you apply in other states? Is that selfish of you to accumulate points?

By the way, you cannot program a computer to do anything that is truly random.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-12 AT 03:57PM (MST)[p]alaska_bou,

Try thinking before you type, suggesting that bonus point systems are the way to go. Most WY residents are not in favor of one for elk, deer, and antelope.

Trying to compare Colorado to Wyoming is a fuggin' joke. There arent any general OTC deer areas in Colorado. Most every unit has 3 or 4 rifle seasons, archery, and ML seasons as well.

In other words, they issue a $hitload of permits...of course you're going to have some areas/seasons that dont require points.

Thats not the case in Wyoming, theres only a handful of LE permit areas. I'd rather not see Wyoming turn into Colorado where you pick one season, usually a week or less in length. I'd rather have the option to apply for a LE permit, if I get lucky and draw, fine...if not I'll just hunt the General areas with long seasons and many options.

I'm well aware of bonus and preference systems, play the games in 8 or so states every year. Its not selfish, IMO, to play by the rules that already established. It is, however, extremely selfish to want to implement a NEW bonus/preference system just to sastisfy a few whiners with an entitlement attitude. Further, you're pi$$ing in the wind if you think Wyoming will ever adopt a bonus point system for residents. It wont happen, it will be a preference system just like it is for Non-Residents.

I'm not sure a "majority" supported pref. for moose and sheep either. These point schemes usually are the result of poor losers thinking they're somehow entitled to LE tags. Same type who couldnt hunt their way out of a wet paper sack in a general unit who want to shoot a decent buck/bull out of the truck window in a LE unit.

The only "fair" thing in any drawing is 100% random....period. Like has already been stated, most states that have point systems wish they didnt.

Go ask the Utah Residents how well they like preference systems...
 
>The main answer to the OP
>question is because the majority
>of residents want the same
>chance as the next guy
>each year to draw a
>tag

Actually yer wrong. Approx 60% of resident hunters support a pref point system per the G&F's research. Problem is the minority who don't are extremely vocal. And since the State legislature would have to pass a law to create resident pp's, it ain't gonna happen without overwelming support. Fact is most folks are ignorant about possible pp system's. Everyone is worried about point creep and never drawing a tag like in Colorado. Fact is they could set it up where 50% of the tags stay random draw or whatever percent you choose. They could also cap max points at some number and/or add in bonus points or weighted points, etc. Would it guarantee that you'd draw the hard to draw tags like elk area 100, no. Unless maybe you lived to be a 100 or so. Would it improve your odds in many areas, yes. Would people still be able to draw random tags and have a shot at drawing a tag via pp's, you bet. So why not do it. Lot's of folks with not much more than a high school education in this state don't understand simple statistics and don't like change...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-12 AT 04:31PM (MST)[p]The problem is, "they" arent going to adopt a different system. It will be a preference system, just like it currently is.

I understand stats just fine, exactly why a random draw is the most fair to everyone.

Why some feel entitled because of how long they apply is a mystery???
 
Buzzh,

I have hunted five out of the six huntable continents with the exception of Europe. I worked as a licensed guide here in WY for the better part of 10 years, received a BA from UW and now I work as an international hunting consultant for one of the longest-running booking agencies in the US. So the next time you pretend anyone who favors pp's "cant hunt there way out of a wet paper bag" you might remind your ignorant self I have more under my belt in 29 years of life than you will achieve in a lifetime.

The more you comment the angrier and less educated you come across. People who don't know how to process internal thoughts/feelings generally resort to anger and foul language to express themselves, just like a little baby. You obviously have a hard time dealing with anyone that shares a differing opinion.

Please name a single state that has ALWAYS used a pp system from the beginning...I'll help you, it doesn't exist. Every state that uses pp's implemented pp's over a random draw to improve draw odds at one time or another. You do not know what you are talking about and are a hypocrite in your "facts/logic." You are suggesting that you yourself are selfish and entitled if you apply for or accumulate moose/sheep points here in WY.

Take a guess what the statistical probablity is of drawing at least one license over the course of 35 years if the odds every year are <2%?

I agree with triple_bb, it tends to be those with nothing more than a highschool education who oppose change because they fear what they do not understand.

Obviosly, this issue is very subjective and there is no definative right or wrong answer. I had simply asked for other's opinions and not a war of words that some are aparently looking for. Anyway, I certainly carry no ill-will towards anyone who prefers the system the way it currently is. I agree that it is not likely in the foreseeable future that anything will change.
 
So what brought that last post on? BuzzH has his opinions and you have yours. Who gives a rip how many years you've done everything you stated you've done? You maybe, LOL! Sounds a little bit pompous to me when a person has to spout off a bunch of credentials that don't mean squat to any of us in order to make people think you're right and everyone who differs is wrong. It doesn't make you any more an expert on what we're discussing than any of the rest of us! You made a statement about why the various states came up with PPs and I see no way you can back that statement up. It couldn't just be that most of the states were looking for another way to make more money could it? Naw, couldn't have anything to do with it!!! As BuzzH stated, the only truly fair way to dole out tags is to have a fully random draw with no PPs, Bonus Points, or any other type of BS! I would say that some of the animals, because of their low numbers(sheep, goats, moose, etc.), should be a once in a lifetime tag or possibly once in a certain number of years that a person could apply for that particular tag. Just because BuzzH or I put in for PPs for some of those animals sure doesn't make him or myself a hypocrite or selfish either. You seem to be saying that because he/we don't like the system that we shouldn't apply. That is absolutely pure BS because all we're doing is working with the cards we've been dealt! Also, as BuzzH stated, I would hate to see Wyoming go to short seasons like Colorado and New Mexico have. IMHO it's not even worth going out from where I live here in Michigan for a five day hunt with the money you have to invest in just the tag itself in those states.
 
Topgun,

You obviously did not READ buzzh's last two posts before commenting, if you can't read then ask someone to read each post to you s l o w l y in their entirety. He clearly states that anyone who supports the idea of a pp system must be a lousy hunter (compared to MACHO HUNTER buzzh, of course...), they must be poor losers, they must feel entitled to a license every years, etc, etc. Did you miss that somehow? I think you did, otherwise you would understand why I wrote what I wrote...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-12 AT 07:15PM (MST)[p]alaska_bou,

First off, I never said you where a whiner or that you couldnt hunt your way out of a wet paper sack...just many that want a point system are. Which, IMO, is true...they whine like babies because someone else is hunting 102 for deer, 100 for elk, etc. etc. etc. and they arent.

Please show me where I specifically referenced you to either of those statements...I'll save you the trouble, I didnt. Apparently though, the shoe may, very well fit judging simply by how you erupted in that post. I cant help that.

Answer me this, if point systems are so fair...hows it working for hunter recruitment? How are point systems working for youth hunters?

I tell you, not worth a $hit.

Look at Arizona, a NR hunter without max points is statistically out of the draw for the Arizona strip deer, most early rifle elk hunts, and Antelope permits.

How about WY?

Take a look at these odds and answer why anyone more than 2-3 points behind max in sheep points even bothers? They'll never reach the max point pool where they're assured a permit...ever.

http://gf.state.wy.us/web2011/Departments/Hunting/pdfs/TOTAL_PREF_POINTS_MS_110000852.pdf

Say you're new to hunting or just turned 12 and started applying this year...you will never draw any of the above I just mentioned in the current preference draw.

You call that a "fair" system? What a fuggin' joke, systematically eliminating odds for those without max points and any new/youth hunters.

Real nice that a bunch of greedy old ba$tards are worried about their "right" and sense of entitlement to hunt a LE unit at all costs, including adopting preference/bonus point systems that totally eliminate a large portion of hunters from ever having the opportunity to hunt many units.

I will personally fight any resident preference system in Wyoming...its an unfair system and does nothing to promote youth or to encourage new hunters to the sport.

Its a ponzi scheme only benefitting the max point holders.
 
I can read and did read what BuzzH wrote! I have learned to let some stuff go right by and not get my panties in a wad, just like I will your smartazz statement about me not being able to read! You see, it goes both ways brother, so don't do what you don't like other people doing!!! BuzzH can come off as you say sometimes, but he has a pretty good handle on most everything he speaks out on (except wolves, LOL!) and I guess that's what I like about him because we are both pretty opinionated and tell it like it is. Anyway, if you don't like a person's response, why would you basically do the same thing in your last two posts? Think about that a little bit BEFORE you make your next post!
 
"I agree with triple_bb, it tends to be those with nothing more than a highschool education who oppose change because they fear what they do not understand."

Wow, what a statement. No sense in debating an issue with you because your intellect is obviously superior to mine. Wait a minute.....I have a B.S. degree from the U of Wyo, too.

Buzz brings up some very valid points in his last post. Point systems have statistically locked out the majority of applicants in most of the so-called best of the best units throughout the West.

It is a statistical fact that once draw odds drop to 10% or less that it is impossible to improve draw odds for everyone. In addition, those areas become once in a lifetime for those in the max point pool. In some cases it will be 15 to 20 years for a person to get that permit from the max point pool (reference Buzz's link to the sheep points for clarification).

Once again, I must say that the reason I'm against Wyoming's point system is that it takes the wildlife that belongs to EVERYONE in Wyoming, and gives the majority of it to one select group (the ones who did nothing more than get lucky enough to get in on the ground floor of the pyramid).
 
Actually, every WGFD employee that I've spoken to about this issue has told me that somewhere near 50% support, 50% oppose, and that the margin for error could throw the results either way, not the clear majority that is implied.

I would also point out that it could easily be those that really don't understand preference or bonus points systems are the ones that SUPPORT these proposals. Arguing that someone who supports/opposes either system is either a borderline idiot or "fears" change doesn't lend credibility to any argument.

A random draw for limited quota big game licenses is the only truly "fair" system. Everyone that applies has the same chance, every year. This is why I support the current system for residents, I feel that it offers the best opportunity for myself and my children who are beginning to hunt.
 
Geezz.....

A guy with under 50 posts comes on and starts bad mouthing folks?

That is pretty dang rude.

Sure many of us do not agree on every single thread but we have been around each other for many-many years--very seldom does it get so disrespectful right out of the under 50 posts input.

Using a sheep and moose points system that was put in place --- what 16-17 years ago certainly isn't a very valid example to bad mouth folks for applying under the only system available.

Points are meaningless----they are for guys that do not want to draw.

If the Bonus point system with 50% to max point holder is so great then how come a state like Utah is at 18 points in every species point pool?-----Yeh that is a 'better' system than equal for all like Idaho and N. Mexico.

Robb
 
You asked for opinions so here goes. I do not support PP's for residents. It will not lead to anything positive. Look at other states that are now caught in the point creep nightmare with no good way out. Wyoming has a great system given the resource and the demands on that resource. Each state has to be able to make a determination given those two factors. Wyoming has great opportunity if you don't draw a LE tag. Other states do not. I don't fear change I just don't see anything postiive coming from that change. You use Area 7 elk as an example thta with PP you can plan on hunting it every 3 years. You can plan on that only working for the first 3 years after the implimentation of PP's. Then plan on it working its way to 4, then 5, then well you get the point. PP's work great for Outfitters and Licensing services because you can lock a guy into a long term commitment. Not nocking either of those businesses but I don't want to see Wyoming start amanging its herd to suit outfitters and licensing services. Just look at Utah to see the end result.
 
Pleasedear,
I suppose I don't have thousands of posts becuase I just don't have that much time on my hands...

I certainly can respect people's opinions agains a PP system, but when people say things like this below it comes across as just plain ignorant and in my mind they loose any and all credibility.

>>>"These point schemes usually are the result of poor losers thinking they're somehow entitled to LE tags. Same type who couldnt hunt their way out of a wet paper sack in a general unit who want to shoot a decent buck/bull out of the truck window in a LE unit." ,buzzh

This ignorant mentality is why I wrote what I wrote... So am I going around "bad-mouthing" everyone? No. If you think PP's are a horrible idea, great, I respect that.

Utah is the worst example anyone could use. Some states did it right, Utah did not.
 
Point systems look really nice till you end up one less than max. They tend to lose their luster at that point. Then the "hybrid" schemes start coming out of the woodwork. Guys one or two down start throwing crap against the wall to see if it will stick.

Regarding Sheep points, I'm not sure why any state would do something that stupid. Miss a year and you just as well quit. We don't have points for Sheep or Goats and it works just fine. We all learned right off the bat that nobody is "entitled" to one of those tags so the "i can never draw a tag" comments don't come up. Just like Powerball and everybody know it.
 
Agreed. I am in that boat myself. I am down from max and who knows if i will ever be among those with max points. My only chance as of now is in the 25% random pool. This is another reason why I like a bonus point system over preference points.


Alaska does it relatively well with sheep points. Areas like TOK are on a point draw, other areas are still availilbe for over-the-counter tags (that will probably change soon). I could not draw a TOK or unit 14 tag so I opted to hunt a "general" sheep unit and for me it worked out well. Obviously WY cannot offer a general sheep tag, but the moral of the story is that options are good. If WY ever went to any type of point system it would be wise to keep our regional and general options open.


Personally, I like the idea of a once-in-a-lifetime harvest for sheep, moose and goat. Idaho uses this idea. Draw a tag and harvest a sheep and your done for life. Draw a tag and strike out and you can get back in the pool at a later date. No one needs to draw two or three sheep tags while others go a lifetime without one.
 
I'm from Utah. I thought I'd better get that out of the way right off the bat.

I like a PP system, 50% random & 50% to max type system.

I like working toward a goal rather than leaving my hunting totally to chance.

I hate random crap in my life (but I like to get lucky sometimes).

I like statistics and the ability to calculate approximately when I'll have a tag.

It does NOT take as many years to draw in Ut as PleaseDear stated. 10 or 12 points and you're good, even for some once in a lifetime tags, in all but the "top" units. My wife will draw Mtn Goat this year with 12.

I don't apply in NM or ID on a regular basis. There is no incentive to do so.

Oh, and I don't care whether Wyo Residents have a PP system or not since I have no dog in the fight.

The one HUGE down-fall to the system is the negative impact to the youngest hunters. This makes the system a total bust if it keeps even 1 youth from becoming a hunter, IMHO.

Just my 2 cents,
Zeke
 
Considering the youth and senior hunters pp's can be a real problem unless implementing a specific "youth" season as some states have done. Young hunters entering the sheep system only have the 25% random pool to rely on. I am not suggesting young hunters should be entitled to the premium units but unless they get to hunt good ground they may loose interest all together and thus leave the lifestyle.

I feel as of now the biggest threat to recruitment is a lack of places to hunt. WY is fortunate that we have a good amount of quality public land, other states, especially in the East, are not so fortunate.

I remember hunting with my father when I was young when landowners would be greatful to allow a person to hunt only for the landowner coupon, now if their property isn't leased to an outfitter they want hundreds, if not thousands to hunt. Can't say I blame them, many landowners are dirt rich and dollar poor.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 01:45PM (MST)[p]Preference Point systems Are tough.

If permits are low in quantity and high in demand the Preference Point System ONLY benefits those who are eligible to apply at the time the system is implemented (or within a few short years- a small window). For example- My 12 year old son (Non-resident) would really like to draw unit 102 in Wyoming, but last year was his first year applying. Just going off the general numbers for 102 apps and 102 permits, he will draw sometime in his 60s -maybe. But my friend drew it the first year they started the point system and now has one behind max and he will draw the permit again in 5-15 years. I have max and could draw it within 5-10 more years. (I know 102 is down, but you guys get the drift).

Preference Points work when the quantity of permits is high enough that it only takes 0-5 years to cycle through the demand. If it is taking 10+ years to cycle through the demand then I view it as a failure simply because those types of permits always have a point creep.

Utah Bonus Point system is kind of ok, but still provides the advantage to those who are eligible when the system started. I drew a moose permit with points. Someone 4+ behind max will NEVER draw (unless they beat .01% odds). My sons will NEVER draw a moose permit, nor a sheep permit, nor a bull buffalo permit in my state because they came along 20 years later than me. I will be honest in saying I felt guilty receiving preference for my OIL Moose permit just because I was around to apply when they started the game.

If a point system is desired then Nevada's system of added chances the longer you apply, but never having the preference over someone else is a good road.

Why should someone born prior to 1999 benefit from a point system, while someone born 2000 or after is at a disadvantage?
 
One thing which we must remember in the "points v random" discussion is that chances are "better than really good" that an applicant will NEVER draw the choice permits with a random application!

Yup, random means most folks will NEVER get drawn in a lifetime!

Points do reward an applicant for dedecation to the system whereas random is... well... random.

So, pick yer poison.

Zeke
 
While random is random, at least all play on the same level. Under Utah's current BP system, those who were able to apply in 1993-1997 will probably get what ever tag they want (Like you and I have done), while those (like my son and your grandkids) who can't apply until 2010 or after will (most likely) never get one of the high-demand tags.

I say any tag that takes longer than 15 years to draw should not be awarded by preference points. Nevada/Colorado weighted systems would be a better way for hard to draw permits.

No perfect answer for sure.
 
>Alaska does it relatively well with
>sheep points. Areas like TOK
>are on a point draw,
>other areas are still availilbe
>for over-the-counter tags (that will
>probably change soon). I could
>not draw a TOK or
>unit 14 tag so I
>opted to hunt a "general"
>sheep unit and for me
>it worked out well.

FYI, areas like the Tok and 14c are on a random draw. That's why I was able to draw a tag on my first try (just like you could), as unfair as that might be.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 03:05PM (MST)[p]Mr Packout,
I agree to a point.

The youngest hunters will have a crack at the good tags because guys like me will be dead and gone by the time the kids are old enough to appreciate a great tag.

The little (big) thing called attrition is a real factor in allowing the younger hunters to have good tags. Also, for everytag drawn the applicant gets closer to a tag of their own.

I was making applications in multiple States since 1971 with little success prior to the points systems. The points system has worked great for my kids too. One even drew a random tag! Oh, my wife drew a random tag too.

You summed it up. There is no perfect system but I like a reward for dedecation to the application process.

Zeke
 
Correct COLOoak, I have been typing the words preference, points and pp's too many times in the last 24 hours. Alaska issues numbers to all applicants similar to the WY bison application. The point action was shot down in Alaska mainly becuase of the impact on the youth, the deficit of guides and the unlikelyhood of getting more than one TMA tag in a lifetime. Alaska proposed to set aside a fraction of the tags for "specie specific" point holders and the majority of tags would go to random draw.

Regardless the idea was that I had an option after not drawing a high-profile unit such as 14c. Becuase of that option I was able to buy an over-the-counter tag and kill a good ram. In most situations, there are always over-the-counter tags or leftover licenses to allow people that did not draw an opportunity to hunt.

Any computer guru will tell you that even the most advanced computer software cannot do anything that is truley "random." The random draw is not as random and "fair" as some would like to believe.
 
"The point action was shot down in Alaska mainly becuase of the impact on the youth, the deficit of guides and the unlikelyhood of getting more than one TMA tag in a lifetime."

Seems a little contradictory you would post this 'bou, and then you expect things would be different with a point system in Wyoming for the high demand units.

Your second paragraph shows exactly why a point system in Wyo wouldn't cyle through nearly as quickly as you think. People could build points and still hunt deer and elk every year on general tags.

.
 
No, that was the state of Alaska's reasoning and one TMA tag in a lifetime is plenty in my opinion especially when other's don't get any.

A while back I asked a WY G&F employee if the current point system for moose/sheep screws over the youth and his response was "They need to put in their dues just like everyone else."

I would bet the majority of hunters here in WY ALREADY apply for LE areas and hunt general when they don't draw. Unless the population of WY tripples the number of applicants in each area would remain closely the same and yes, drawing a license would cycle. If people exclusively applied for "premium" areas, consequently less people would be putting in for "good" areas and the odds would go up...
 
Zeke---ya mis-read me.....I didn't say ya had to have 18 pts to draw a tag in 'tardville...

"If the Bonus point system with 50% to max point holder is so great then how come a state like Utah is at 18 points in every species point pool?-----Yeh that is a 'better' system than equal for all like Idaho and N. Mexico.

Robb "

No-biggy...as I get in enough trouble for what I do say let alone for what I don't say! ha

a--'bou---Utah is the only Bonus point state there is that has the 50% to max---Az. 20%, Nv. no- & and Mont. no-- % that is the reason I used it as an example of a 50% state.....

Robb
 
Yup Robb,
My error. I get what you're saying and I just mis-interpreted what you wrote.

You're right, we're (Utah) at 18 max points but most tags are being drawn with far fewer points.

Zeke
 
'morning Zeke,

You are correct--

"You're right, we're (Utah) at 18 max points but most tags are being drawn with far fewer points."

50% of them certainly are......kinda strange to look and see someone in the 13 pt pool drawing one of the max 50% tags----granted~~unit/species/weapon certainly play a major role in points need for a max pt pool tag.

Out of all the draws I am in --I do like the percentage split....if it is a pref point like Wyo max 75%/random 25% or like Utah max 50%/everyone 50%.

Robb
 
I'm with ya,bou.Wouldn't bother me to see a bonus pt system here.Couple that with a waiting period.Trouble is,you'd pretty much have to make the whole state LQ to make it work.I think our lower population base would keep point creep down.Call me selfish,I don't care.The condition our deer herds are in right now in sw Wy merits extreme measures,IMO.
 

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