my kids just reached legal hunting age so they can now apply for tags. as every parent knows u only have a few years before their gone or uninterested. theirs no way with point creep they will draw any good tag before their grown. new mexico has youth hunts but odds are so low non res won't draw(at least theres a chance, i applaud idaho and new mexico for that) we hunt gen units and drive from louisiana a couple times each fall just because i love hunting out west and didn't get to do it as a kid. (have even considered moving but work,relatives,etc complicate matters) my point is u should read ryan hatfield article on last page of recent western hunters magazine about preference point system. no one , new to the sport, young or old can draw a decent tag with the current system. anybody have any suggestions. i know theres random draw in some states but it doesn't present a reasonable opportunity for most. I'm a fan of straight random draw but i realize it has flaws too. i think the system is broken and some new ideas and implementations would be refreshing to the sport as a whole.
pref point system fix
- Thread starter patea
- Start date
Your definition of a "decent" hunt may be different than your kids. If we weren't so focused on trophy hunting, maybe our kids would be just as happy with general season or non trophy hunts. Kids are being sent the wrong message. It's less about the kids and more about dad, quite frankly.
It's too bad there are so many people wanting a slice of the pie. Kids are at a disadvantage entering a large pool of applicants with many points built up. As a young man applying for hunts when Utah had a random draw, I remember seeing the same names almost every year drawing LE tags. That was equally frustrating to me as what kids face now I never drew a tag in the old system. Since the new PP system I have finally drawn tags.
The current Utah system is really not broken so don't fix it. If you pay your dues, eventually you will get a tag. There is also the random element as well. Perhaps things could be done to help youth out, but there are many many many youth opportunities if we take advantage of them. Let's keep the kids enjoyment and experience in mind, not those of the parents looking to live a trophy hunt through their kids.
It's too bad there are so many people wanting a slice of the pie. Kids are at a disadvantage entering a large pool of applicants with many points built up. As a young man applying for hunts when Utah had a random draw, I remember seeing the same names almost every year drawing LE tags. That was equally frustrating to me as what kids face now I never drew a tag in the old system. Since the new PP system I have finally drawn tags.
The current Utah system is really not broken so don't fix it. If you pay your dues, eventually you will get a tag. There is also the random element as well. Perhaps things could be done to help youth out, but there are many many many youth opportunities if we take advantage of them. Let's keep the kids enjoyment and experience in mind, not those of the parents looking to live a trophy hunt through their kids.
sticksender
Active Member
- Messages
- 999
Bonus point system, preference point systems, hybrid systems, or random draws, doesn't matter which, the basic issue with high-demand hunts is that there are too many people wanting too-few tags. Plain and simple, there is no "fix" for that. When you have 500 people wanting 1 available tag, not everyone can draw in their lifetime.
On the other hand, even with no points in any state, this fall I could do a DIY hunt for any or all of the following species, in multiple states: Elk, Mule Deer, Whitetail, Blacktail, Coues, Javelina, Cow Moose, Pronghorn, Bear, Lion, Wolf, Hogs, and all kinds of small game & fowl. And with a couple points here or there, do some other decent hunts. That should be plenty to keep one busy for a looooong time, during which time one can luck out and maybe even draw a couple premium hunts.
Might as well stop gnashing our teeth trying to solve the unsolvable, and instead, use a glass-half-full approach and take advantage of the massive amount of hunting opportunity that's out there! Good luck!
On the other hand, even with no points in any state, this fall I could do a DIY hunt for any or all of the following species, in multiple states: Elk, Mule Deer, Whitetail, Blacktail, Coues, Javelina, Cow Moose, Pronghorn, Bear, Lion, Wolf, Hogs, and all kinds of small game & fowl. And with a couple points here or there, do some other decent hunts. That should be plenty to keep one busy for a looooong time, during which time one can luck out and maybe even draw a couple premium hunts.
Might as well stop gnashing our teeth trying to solve the unsolvable, and instead, use a glass-half-full approach and take advantage of the massive amount of hunting opportunity that's out there! Good luck!
I think PP systems suck and wish they went away. Glad Wyo does not have them for Resident Deer, Elk and Antelope. That being said, if you think your children cannot draw a decent tag unless they wait years then you have not done even the most basic of research. I have drawn tags in CO, NM, MT and WY with only a year or two wait on several occasions. I cannot remember one of these hunts being anything more than a great time. Cut the crap about thinking the only decent tags are for 200" bucks or 400" bulls. If this is what you are teaching your kids then expect them to be disappointed with hunting. They could be hunting Antelope in Wyo this year, and every year there after if you really wanted them to. They could be hunting deer in CO every 2 to 3 years on great tags if you really wanted them to. They could hunt CO elk every year if you really wanted them to. They could hunt elk and deer every year in MT or ID if you really wanted them to. These hunts are typically harder and demand more effort than the highly sought after tags but what are you looking for, an easier hunt or a great adventure with your kids.
BrowningRage
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,459
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-16 AT 08:54AM (MST)[p]Thanks for the post patea...
I live in Utah. Here we have Premium Limited Entry units/hunts, Limited Entry units/hunts, and General season units/hunts. The public builds Bonus Points for the Premium and Limited Entry, and Preference Points for General Season.
You are correct, the system is completely broken. While there are a few general season hunts/units in Utah that can be drawn every year, opportunity for deer in those areas is limited. Most general season hunts now take a point or two to draw. And they will experience point creep going forward as well.
When I say broken, let me give an example. The Book Cliffs is the Limited Entry unit that is largest, has the most deer, and gives out the most tags. This makes it the "easiest" LE unit to draw. If you have a 14 year old that is putting in for the first time for that unit, let's say the North unit, with a rifle, he will have 2,520 people in front of him/her in line for that tag. As there are about 150 tags for that hunt, it will take 17 years before all of the people in front of your child are gone. In fact, even that is not quite right as with the random draw tags, people "behind" your child will start drawing tags as well. Because of that, the higher your points, the more people behind you there are to draw tags. Anyway, it would not be unreasonable to anticipate that, though it only took 11 points to be guaranteed that tag in 2015, your child will take more like 20-22 years to be guaranteed that tag, relatively speaking, for the 'worst' Limited Entry Rifle tag in our state.
Anyone who doesn't think that is a broken system, is nuts.
There are a few ways to completely obliterate the point creep system.
First: Utah DWR will have to do away with allowing people to put in for BOTH a limited entry AND general season hunt. Since our state now has both bonus points and preference points, everything is technically 'limited entry' anyway. By doing that, individuals have to make a choice as to whether they want to hunt more regularly on general season units, or less frequently, but on LE units. This would also likely eliminate, from the Premium/Limited Entry draws, thousands of people who hunt on private lands that are equal to some limited entry units in game quality. Those individuals would likely choose to hunt more regularly on the private land they are used to (with general season tags), rather than wait for LE tags. And, because others are opting for the LE draw, the private land hunters would likely be able to draw their general season tag where they hunt every year, offering them increase opportunity to hunt where they always have.
Second: Purchasing CWMU tags is commensurate with putting in for and drawing a general season tag. What I mean is, if you put in for an LE draw in February, you are ineligible to purchase any CWMU tag for that same species that same year. This will require thousands of hunters (deer and elk) to choose between putting in for LE, or purchasing their CWMU tag. I think the majority will opt out of the LE hunts in favor of their CWMU hunts. If not, and they opt out of CWMU tags, then CWMU operators will have to do some advertising, and maybe even lower some prices in order to sell their tags. But I don't think that would be a problem. CWMUs get their money, those hunters get their yearly trophy, and the rest of us have increased opportunity at the LE tags. WIN-WIN-WIN.
Third: No more buying bonus points/preference points. Being required to actually put in for the hunt will help reduce point creep as well. If an individual has chosen the LE path, they must put in for the hunt each year. I would not have a penalty of losing your BP/PP if you don't put in, but if you don't put in, you don't accrue a point. There is already a mechanism built in for turning tags in if your circumstances change and won't allow you to hunt, but if you put in for a tag in February, you better be planning on hunting that hunt, that year.
Fourth: In order to really reduce point creep, Premium Limited Entry and Limited Entry units would become Once-In-A-Lifetime for all species. With this change there would be a couple thousand people that would only be able to hunt general season from that time on, but because it opens up the LE unit to be drawn more frequently, people from the general season pool would opt to wait several years for the LE tag, and could even out those numbers. I know some will say, "look at current OIL tags, their point creep is ridiculous!" Yes, I know, but with deer and elk it is different because of the option for general season hunting. Currently, OIL tags like Bighorn and Moose also allow you to put in for general season deer or elk, etc. As I have outlined above, my plan doesn't allow for that. You choose to put in for the LE tags until you draw them, and then you hunt general season forever after that. Or buy CWMU tags.
Now, I don't exactly agree with the steps I've outlined above, but they are four tough steps that I think would "fix" the point creep in Utah. Tag numbers would stay the same, but people will have to start choosing what and where they want to hunt, and would not have "fall back" options when the better option doesn't work out.
Also, because my plan would keep tag numbers relatively the same as they are now, the state can still manage for trophy animals in order to sell off tags at auctions and banquets and things. Nobody gets hurt there. And, those few hundred tags do generate a lot of money. And those people tend to pull a lot of strings... So... give baby their bottle.
So, the super-rich get their cake (Auction tags). The rich get their cake (CWMU and private lands), and the rest of us can have increased opportunity for LE tags if we choose to. And we can all enjoy general season hunting more often.
"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
I live in Utah. Here we have Premium Limited Entry units/hunts, Limited Entry units/hunts, and General season units/hunts. The public builds Bonus Points for the Premium and Limited Entry, and Preference Points for General Season.
You are correct, the system is completely broken. While there are a few general season hunts/units in Utah that can be drawn every year, opportunity for deer in those areas is limited. Most general season hunts now take a point or two to draw. And they will experience point creep going forward as well.
When I say broken, let me give an example. The Book Cliffs is the Limited Entry unit that is largest, has the most deer, and gives out the most tags. This makes it the "easiest" LE unit to draw. If you have a 14 year old that is putting in for the first time for that unit, let's say the North unit, with a rifle, he will have 2,520 people in front of him/her in line for that tag. As there are about 150 tags for that hunt, it will take 17 years before all of the people in front of your child are gone. In fact, even that is not quite right as with the random draw tags, people "behind" your child will start drawing tags as well. Because of that, the higher your points, the more people behind you there are to draw tags. Anyway, it would not be unreasonable to anticipate that, though it only took 11 points to be guaranteed that tag in 2015, your child will take more like 20-22 years to be guaranteed that tag, relatively speaking, for the 'worst' Limited Entry Rifle tag in our state.
Anyone who doesn't think that is a broken system, is nuts.
There are a few ways to completely obliterate the point creep system.
First: Utah DWR will have to do away with allowing people to put in for BOTH a limited entry AND general season hunt. Since our state now has both bonus points and preference points, everything is technically 'limited entry' anyway. By doing that, individuals have to make a choice as to whether they want to hunt more regularly on general season units, or less frequently, but on LE units. This would also likely eliminate, from the Premium/Limited Entry draws, thousands of people who hunt on private lands that are equal to some limited entry units in game quality. Those individuals would likely choose to hunt more regularly on the private land they are used to (with general season tags), rather than wait for LE tags. And, because others are opting for the LE draw, the private land hunters would likely be able to draw their general season tag where they hunt every year, offering them increase opportunity to hunt where they always have.
Second: Purchasing CWMU tags is commensurate with putting in for and drawing a general season tag. What I mean is, if you put in for an LE draw in February, you are ineligible to purchase any CWMU tag for that same species that same year. This will require thousands of hunters (deer and elk) to choose between putting in for LE, or purchasing their CWMU tag. I think the majority will opt out of the LE hunts in favor of their CWMU hunts. If not, and they opt out of CWMU tags, then CWMU operators will have to do some advertising, and maybe even lower some prices in order to sell their tags. But I don't think that would be a problem. CWMUs get their money, those hunters get their yearly trophy, and the rest of us have increased opportunity at the LE tags. WIN-WIN-WIN.
Third: No more buying bonus points/preference points. Being required to actually put in for the hunt will help reduce point creep as well. If an individual has chosen the LE path, they must put in for the hunt each year. I would not have a penalty of losing your BP/PP if you don't put in, but if you don't put in, you don't accrue a point. There is already a mechanism built in for turning tags in if your circumstances change and won't allow you to hunt, but if you put in for a tag in February, you better be planning on hunting that hunt, that year.
Fourth: In order to really reduce point creep, Premium Limited Entry and Limited Entry units would become Once-In-A-Lifetime for all species. With this change there would be a couple thousand people that would only be able to hunt general season from that time on, but because it opens up the LE unit to be drawn more frequently, people from the general season pool would opt to wait several years for the LE tag, and could even out those numbers. I know some will say, "look at current OIL tags, their point creep is ridiculous!" Yes, I know, but with deer and elk it is different because of the option for general season hunting. Currently, OIL tags like Bighorn and Moose also allow you to put in for general season deer or elk, etc. As I have outlined above, my plan doesn't allow for that. You choose to put in for the LE tags until you draw them, and then you hunt general season forever after that. Or buy CWMU tags.
Now, I don't exactly agree with the steps I've outlined above, but they are four tough steps that I think would "fix" the point creep in Utah. Tag numbers would stay the same, but people will have to start choosing what and where they want to hunt, and would not have "fall back" options when the better option doesn't work out.
Also, because my plan would keep tag numbers relatively the same as they are now, the state can still manage for trophy animals in order to sell off tags at auctions and banquets and things. Nobody gets hurt there. And, those few hundred tags do generate a lot of money. And those people tend to pull a lot of strings... So... give baby their bottle.
So, the super-rich get their cake (Auction tags). The rich get their cake (CWMU and private lands), and the rest of us can have increased opportunity for LE tags if we choose to. And we can all enjoy general season hunting more often.
"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
Zeke
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,605
>Your definition of a "decent" hunt
>may be different than your
>kids. If we weren't so
>focused on trophy hunting, maybe
>our kids would be just
>as happy with general season
>or non trophy hunts. Kids
>are being sent the wrong
>message. It's less about the
>kids and more about dad,
>quite frankly.
>
>It's too bad there are so
>many people wanting a slice
>of the pie. Kids are
>at a disadvantage entering a
>large pool of applicants with
>many points built up. As
>a young man applying for
>hunts when Utah had a
>random draw, I remember seeing
>the same names almost every
>year drawing LE tags. That
>was equally frustrating to me
>as what kids face now
> I never drew a
>tag in the old system.
>Since the new PP system
>I have finally drawn tags.
>
>
>The current Utah system is really
>not broken so don't fix
>it. If you pay your
>dues, eventually you will get
>a tag. There is
>also the random element as
>well. Perhaps things could be
>done to help youth out,
>but there are many many
>many youth opportunities if we
>take advantage of them. Let's
>keep the kids enjoyment and
>experience in mind, not those
>of the parents looking to
>live a trophy hunt through
>their kids.
100% correct!
Zeke
>may be different than your
>kids. If we weren't so
>focused on trophy hunting, maybe
>our kids would be just
>as happy with general season
>or non trophy hunts. Kids
>are being sent the wrong
>message. It's less about the
>kids and more about dad,
>quite frankly.
>
>It's too bad there are so
>many people wanting a slice
>of the pie. Kids are
>at a disadvantage entering a
>large pool of applicants with
>many points built up. As
>a young man applying for
>hunts when Utah had a
>random draw, I remember seeing
>the same names almost every
>year drawing LE tags. That
>was equally frustrating to me
>as what kids face now
> I never drew a
>tag in the old system.
>Since the new PP system
>I have finally drawn tags.
>
>
>The current Utah system is really
>not broken so don't fix
>it. If you pay your
>dues, eventually you will get
>a tag. There is
>also the random element as
>well. Perhaps things could be
>done to help youth out,
>but there are many many
>many youth opportunities if we
>take advantage of them. Let's
>keep the kids enjoyment and
>experience in mind, not those
>of the parents looking to
>live a trophy hunt through
>their kids.
100% correct!
Zeke
lostinOregon
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,011
No one is entitled to anything, even kids. I don't understand the thought process. Do you want to teach your kids that your now 12, so you get the best tags out there and you will skip ahead of folks that have been waiting years, or there maybe some value in teaching your kids that there are some things in life waiting for or that you earn.
It is absolutely hogwash that good tags can't be drawn by kids. No, they won't draw a Henry's tag or a sheep tag, but neither will most. If you are putting your kids in for the best of the best hunts, they probably won't draw. A quality hunt with your child shouldn't be judged because they won't kill a 180 inch buck.
So you know, I have 6 kids. Three older and three that are just coming of age to hunt. My oldest son is now 30 and we have been on great hunts that were easy draw tags. If your mindset is that your kids need a opportunity at a trophy animal to have"opportunity" you are missing the point.
We have raised a generation of "trophy" kids where everyone is a winner. That's not how it works in real life or in hunting and these kids are in for a big shock someday.
Rich
It is absolutely hogwash that good tags can't be drawn by kids. No, they won't draw a Henry's tag or a sheep tag, but neither will most. If you are putting your kids in for the best of the best hunts, they probably won't draw. A quality hunt with your child shouldn't be judged because they won't kill a 180 inch buck.
So you know, I have 6 kids. Three older and three that are just coming of age to hunt. My oldest son is now 30 and we have been on great hunts that were easy draw tags. If your mindset is that your kids need a opportunity at a trophy animal to have"opportunity" you are missing the point.
We have raised a generation of "trophy" kids where everyone is a winner. That's not how it works in real life or in hunting and these kids are in for a big shock someday.
Rich
"The current Utah system is really not broken so don't fix it. If you pay your dues, eventually you will get a tag."
This is the fallacy that keeps point systems in place. Not everyone gets a tag for many hunts.
"No one is entitled to anything, even kids. I don't understand the thought process. It is absolutely hogwash that good tags can't be drawn by kids. No, they won't draw a Henry's tag or a sheep tag, but neither will most."
Rich made some good points I agree with about kids hunting, but don't point systems impart a sense of entitlement for those at the head of the line for tags most will never draw? Why should someone with 20 points be able to wait those 20 years and draw, yet another might wait 50 years and not draw?
--------------
Here are some of my thoughts on it--
Any tag that takes 1/2 a lifetime or more to draw should be random at some point. This could be easily accomplished by capping the maximum number of points at say 20 or 25. Once you reach the high level it all becomes random.
If you are going to do points then I like something along these lines-- A unit that takes 0-5 points allocates on preference points. A unit that takes 6-20 points is allocated 1/2 to preference and 1/2 to random (bonus system). A unit that takes more than 20 points is random.
Point systems are great for the applicants that are eligible to apply at the arbitrary point in time when the point system is implemented. Point systems stink for the people who come along later and can never reach the top levels unless they out-live the competition.
This is the fallacy that keeps point systems in place. Not everyone gets a tag for many hunts.
"No one is entitled to anything, even kids. I don't understand the thought process. It is absolutely hogwash that good tags can't be drawn by kids. No, they won't draw a Henry's tag or a sheep tag, but neither will most."
Rich made some good points I agree with about kids hunting, but don't point systems impart a sense of entitlement for those at the head of the line for tags most will never draw? Why should someone with 20 points be able to wait those 20 years and draw, yet another might wait 50 years and not draw?
--------------
Here are some of my thoughts on it--
Any tag that takes 1/2 a lifetime or more to draw should be random at some point. This could be easily accomplished by capping the maximum number of points at say 20 or 25. Once you reach the high level it all becomes random.
If you are going to do points then I like something along these lines-- A unit that takes 0-5 points allocates on preference points. A unit that takes 6-20 points is allocated 1/2 to preference and 1/2 to random (bonus system). A unit that takes more than 20 points is random.
Point systems are great for the applicants that are eligible to apply at the arbitrary point in time when the point system is implemented. Point systems stink for the people who come along later and can never reach the top levels unless they out-live the competition.
Iowan
Active Member
- Messages
- 534
Pretty simple really - work together to improve habitat and control predators - unless we create more game and public land or access to private land this problem will persist. Limited number of 'quality' tags and lots of hunters that want them. We have great hunts every year and if you work hard and have realistic expectations I really do not understand how anyone could complain. I am never going to draw the San Juan elk tag or any sheep tags for that matter - simple fact - but that does not mean I do not have access to very good hunts.
I think sometimes people focus on the success/harvest rates and size of animal- there is all kinds of opportunity to go hunting out there - you may just have to work harder. I think all the system are as fair as can be and I also like the diversity of systems (New Mexico versus Colorado for example). Does a youth hunter really need to harvest a 350" bull to enjoy their hunt. I have seen dozens of kids shoot their first deer (almost all does) and they get more excited than I do shooting a huge buck.
I think sometimes people focus on the success/harvest rates and size of animal- there is all kinds of opportunity to go hunting out there - you may just have to work harder. I think all the system are as fair as can be and I also like the diversity of systems (New Mexico versus Colorado for example). Does a youth hunter really need to harvest a 350" bull to enjoy their hunt. I have seen dozens of kids shoot their first deer (almost all does) and they get more excited than I do shooting a huge buck.
mevertsen
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,276
Everyone has the opportunity to draw a decent tag in their lifetime. For example here in Nevada a person who drew a 5th choice deer tag last year has the exact same chance as a person who first applies this year. The reason being that if you get a tag at all for that category your bonus points revert to zero. It is not a perfect system but neither are any of the western states. You have to get your name in the hat,find out if quality or opportunity is most important and roll with it.
The real problem is not the system it is the lack of high demand game. i.e. quality elk and deer tags. Back in the 60 s and 70s this just wasn't an issue because of the sheer number of deer. Since then several things have happened to affect the deer numbers and put the supply demand out of our favor: 1. Habitat has been gobbled up by development. 2: Ban and expense and funding of logging and dragging cedars (deterioration of prime habitat) 3. Introduction and increased support for predators. Now you have hunters (wolves, bears, coyotes, bobcats, cougars) hunting 365 days a week like not seen since the 1800s. All nearly eradicated by our forefathers caused a game boom. So unless some of those things are tipped back into our favor, the hunting opportunities will continue to deteriorate for our children. Unfortunately, those who are in control of this tend to take the disney bambi approach and not the plentiful game approach. So its not the system guys, the system is trying to put a bandaid on a leaking artery.
T
T
TheBoneCollector
Active Member
- Messages
- 166
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-16 AT 05:15PM (MST)[p]I honestly think you can set your kids up to hunt often and with good tags. Here is his point total after this years draws for my 15 year old son. He is a freshman in high school and has killed 7 bucks, 1 lope and a bull elk. He may not be able to draw the top LE hunts, but he will hunt some great units. Arizona offers some good hunts for 7-10 pts, as well as Colorado, Wyoming and good odds for Nevada. Throw in a tag or two for New Mexico or Idaho or Montana. I know this isn't cheap, but some states are cheap for the kids, excluding Nevada.Throw in the states where you can average your points with theirs and it's even better. I know most of the states systems and would be more than happy helping anyone that needs info for their kids points. I have started building them for my daughter, as I'm optimistic about her future hunts as well. I'm not saying these point systems are great, but there is opportunity out there.
2016 DEER ELK LOPE SHEEP JAV
AZ 7 7 7 7 8
CA 3 4 4 0 0
CO 4 4 4 0 0
NV 3 3 3 0 0
OR 3/4 0 0 0 0
UT 0 0 0 0 0
WY 5 5 5 0 0
BC
2016 DEER ELK LOPE SHEEP JAV
AZ 7 7 7 7 8
CA 3 4 4 0 0
CO 4 4 4 0 0
NV 3 3 3 0 0
OR 3/4 0 0 0 0
UT 0 0 0 0 0
WY 5 5 5 0 0
BC
Great post Rich you hit the nail on the head.
It took me 18 years to build enough points in WY to draw my sheep tag. in my home state of OR we have no sheep points and after 41 years never missing a single drawing I've still not drawn a tag and probably never will. don't tell me points don't help.
Patience and dedication and lots of fees should should have rewards.
Stay Thirsty My Friends
It took me 18 years to build enough points in WY to draw my sheep tag. in my home state of OR we have no sheep points and after 41 years never missing a single drawing I've still not drawn a tag and probably never will. don't tell me points don't help.
Patience and dedication and lots of fees should should have rewards.
Stay Thirsty My Friends
wanabefishcatcher
Member
- Messages
- 35
I seem to draw a good tag most years. Some would say a great tag. They may even change the rules so that cannot happen. But the rules are there and if you abide by them you get good tags. One thing for sure is that you can complain about it or you can put your name in the hat. You will not draw if you do not apply. I like to take the kids hunting. I will turn in a good tag and keep my points if one of my nephews draws a great tag and I can help him.
Now back to drawing every year. This is applying in many states. Not just my home state.
Nothing like making sure you are applied and waiting for the draws. Helps keep some excitement in our lives.
Never miss the chance at a hunt of a lifetime.
Now back to drawing every year. This is applying in many states. Not just my home state.
Nothing like making sure you are applied and waiting for the draws. Helps keep some excitement in our lives.
Never miss the chance at a hunt of a lifetime.
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-16
>AT 08:54?AM (MST)
>
>Thanks for the post patea...
>
>I live in Utah. Here we
>have Premium Limited Entry units/hunts,
>Limited Entry units/hunts, and General
>season units/hunts. The public builds
>Bonus Points for the Premium
>and Limited Entry, and Preference
>Points for General Season.
>
>You are correct, the system is
>completely broken. While there are
>a few general season hunts/units
>in Utah that can be
>drawn every year, opportunity for
>deer in those areas is
>limited. Most general season hunts
>now take a point or
>two to draw. And they
>will experience point creep going
>forward as well.
>
>When I say broken, let me
>give an example. The Book
>Cliffs is the Limited Entry
>unit that is largest, has
>the most deer, and gives
>out the most tags. This
>makes it the "easiest" LE
>unit to draw. If you
>have a 14 year old
>that is putting in for
>the first time for that
>unit, let's say the North
>unit, with a rifle, he
>will have 2,520 people in
>front of him/her in line
>for that tag. As there
>are about 150 tags for
>that hunt, it will take
>17 years before all of
>the people in front of
>your child are gone. In
>fact, even that is not
>quite right as with the
>random draw tags, people "behind"
>your child will start drawing
>tags as well. Because of
>that, the higher your points,
>the more people behind you
>there are to draw tags.
>Anyway, it would not be
>unreasonable to anticipate that, though
>it only took 11 points
>to be guaranteed that tag
>in 2015, your child will
>take more like 20-22 years
>to be guaranteed that tag,
>relatively speaking, for the 'worst'
>Limited Entry Rifle tag in
>our state.
>
>Anyone who doesn't think that is
>a broken system, is nuts.
>
>
>There are a few ways to
>completely obliterate the point creep
>system.
>
>First: Utah DWR will have to
>do away with allowing people
>to put in for BOTH
>a limited entry AND general
>season hunt. Since our state
>now has both bonus points
>and preference points, everything is
>technically 'limited entry' anyway.
>By doing that, individuals have
>to make a choice as
>to whether they want to
>hunt more regularly on general
>season units, or less frequently,
>but on LE units. This
>would also likely eliminate, from
>the Premium/Limited Entry draws, thousands
>of people who hunt on
>private lands that are equal
>to some limited entry units
>in game quality. Those individuals
>would likely choose to hunt
>more regularly on the private
>land they are used to
>(with general season tags), rather
>than wait for LE tags.
>And, because others are opting
>for the LE draw, the
>private land hunters would likely
>be able to draw their
>general season tag where they
>hunt every year, offering them
>increase opportunity to hunt where
>they always have.
>
>Second: Purchasing CWMU tags is commensurate
>with putting in for and
>drawing a general season tag.
>What I mean is, if
>you put in for an
>LE draw in February, you
>are ineligible to purchase any
>CWMU tag for that same
>species that same year. This
>will require thousands of hunters
>(deer and elk) to choose
>between putting in for LE,
>or purchasing their CWMU tag.
>I think the majority will
>opt out of the LE
>hunts in favor of their
>CWMU hunts. If not, and
>they opt out of CWMU
>tags, then CWMU operators will
>have to do some advertising,
>and maybe even lower some
>prices in order to sell
>their tags. But I don't
>think that would be a
>problem. CWMUs get their money,
>those hunters get their yearly
>trophy, and the rest of
>us have increased opportunity at
>the LE tags. WIN-WIN-WIN.
>
>Third: No more buying bonus points/preference
>points. Being required to actually
>put in for the hunt
>will help reduce point creep
>as well. If an individual
>has chosen the LE path,
>they must put in for
>the hunt each year. I
>would not have a penalty
>of losing your BP/PP if
>you don't put in, but
>if you don't put in,
>you don't accrue a point.
>There is already a mechanism
>built in for turning tags
>in if your circumstances change
>and won't allow you to
>hunt, but if you put
>in for a tag in
>February, you better be planning
>on hunting that hunt, that
>year.
>
>Fourth: In order to really reduce
>point creep, Premium Limited Entry
>and Limited Entry units would
>become Once-In-A-Lifetime for all species.
>With this change there would
>be a couple thousand people
>that would only be able
>to hunt general season from
>that time on, but because
>it opens up the LE
>unit to be drawn more
>frequently, people from the general
>season pool would opt to
>wait several years for the
>LE tag, and could even
>out those numbers. I know
>some will say, "look at
>current OIL tags, their point
>creep is ridiculous!" Yes, I
>know, but with deer and
>elk it is different because
>of the option for general
>season hunting. Currently, OIL tags
>like Bighorn and Moose also
>allow you to put in
>for general season deer or
>elk, etc. As I have
>outlined above, my plan doesn't
>allow for that. You choose
>to put in for the
>LE tags until you draw
>them, and then you hunt
>general season forever after that.
>Or buy CWMU tags.
>
>Now, I don't exactly agree with
>the steps I've outlined above,
>but they are four tough
>steps that I think would
>"fix" the point creep in
>Utah. Tag numbers would stay
>the same, but people will
>have to start choosing what
>and where they want to
>hunt, and would not have
>"fall back" options when the
>better option doesn't work out.
>
>
>Also, because my plan would keep
>tag numbers relatively the same
>as they are now, the
>state can still manage for
>trophy animals in order to
>sell off tags at auctions
>and banquets and things. Nobody
>gets hurt there. And, those
>few hundred tags do generate
>a lot of money. And
>those people tend to pull
>a lot of strings... So...
>give baby their bottle.
>
>So, the super-rich get their cake
>(Auction tags). The rich get
>their cake (CWMU and private
>lands), and the rest of
>us can have increased opportunity
>for LE tags if we
>choose to. And we can
>all enjoy general season hunting
>more often.
>
>"Therefore, wo be unto him that
>is at ease in Zion!"
>2 Ne. 28: 24
I agree with most of this....although I don't live in planet Utah. When it comes to LE drawings it should be once in a lifetime per species and one choice a year. Idaho has it part right in that any controlled hunt drawing you must chose 1 species to apply for that year...do you really need to be allowed to put in for a moose, sheep, goat, trophy deer etc all in the same year, do you really need or even want to draw all those tags.
>AT 08:54?AM (MST)
>
>Thanks for the post patea...
>
>I live in Utah. Here we
>have Premium Limited Entry units/hunts,
>Limited Entry units/hunts, and General
>season units/hunts. The public builds
>Bonus Points for the Premium
>and Limited Entry, and Preference
>Points for General Season.
>
>You are correct, the system is
>completely broken. While there are
>a few general season hunts/units
>in Utah that can be
>drawn every year, opportunity for
>deer in those areas is
>limited. Most general season hunts
>now take a point or
>two to draw. And they
>will experience point creep going
>forward as well.
>
>When I say broken, let me
>give an example. The Book
>Cliffs is the Limited Entry
>unit that is largest, has
>the most deer, and gives
>out the most tags. This
>makes it the "easiest" LE
>unit to draw. If you
>have a 14 year old
>that is putting in for
>the first time for that
>unit, let's say the North
>unit, with a rifle, he
>will have 2,520 people in
>front of him/her in line
>for that tag. As there
>are about 150 tags for
>that hunt, it will take
>17 years before all of
>the people in front of
>your child are gone. In
>fact, even that is not
>quite right as with the
>random draw tags, people "behind"
>your child will start drawing
>tags as well. Because of
>that, the higher your points,
>the more people behind you
>there are to draw tags.
>Anyway, it would not be
>unreasonable to anticipate that, though
>it only took 11 points
>to be guaranteed that tag
>in 2015, your child will
>take more like 20-22 years
>to be guaranteed that tag,
>relatively speaking, for the 'worst'
>Limited Entry Rifle tag in
>our state.
>
>Anyone who doesn't think that is
>a broken system, is nuts.
>
>
>There are a few ways to
>completely obliterate the point creep
>system.
>
>First: Utah DWR will have to
>do away with allowing people
>to put in for BOTH
>a limited entry AND general
>season hunt. Since our state
>now has both bonus points
>and preference points, everything is
>technically 'limited entry' anyway.
>By doing that, individuals have
>to make a choice as
>to whether they want to
>hunt more regularly on general
>season units, or less frequently,
>but on LE units. This
>would also likely eliminate, from
>the Premium/Limited Entry draws, thousands
>of people who hunt on
>private lands that are equal
>to some limited entry units
>in game quality. Those individuals
>would likely choose to hunt
>more regularly on the private
>land they are used to
>(with general season tags), rather
>than wait for LE tags.
>And, because others are opting
>for the LE draw, the
>private land hunters would likely
>be able to draw their
>general season tag where they
>hunt every year, offering them
>increase opportunity to hunt where
>they always have.
>
>Second: Purchasing CWMU tags is commensurate
>with putting in for and
>drawing a general season tag.
>What I mean is, if
>you put in for an
>LE draw in February, you
>are ineligible to purchase any
>CWMU tag for that same
>species that same year. This
>will require thousands of hunters
>(deer and elk) to choose
>between putting in for LE,
>or purchasing their CWMU tag.
>I think the majority will
>opt out of the LE
>hunts in favor of their
>CWMU hunts. If not, and
>they opt out of CWMU
>tags, then CWMU operators will
>have to do some advertising,
>and maybe even lower some
>prices in order to sell
>their tags. But I don't
>think that would be a
>problem. CWMUs get their money,
>those hunters get their yearly
>trophy, and the rest of
>us have increased opportunity at
>the LE tags. WIN-WIN-WIN.
>
>Third: No more buying bonus points/preference
>points. Being required to actually
>put in for the hunt
>will help reduce point creep
>as well. If an individual
>has chosen the LE path,
>they must put in for
>the hunt each year. I
>would not have a penalty
>of losing your BP/PP if
>you don't put in, but
>if you don't put in,
>you don't accrue a point.
>There is already a mechanism
>built in for turning tags
>in if your circumstances change
>and won't allow you to
>hunt, but if you put
>in for a tag in
>February, you better be planning
>on hunting that hunt, that
>year.
>
>Fourth: In order to really reduce
>point creep, Premium Limited Entry
>and Limited Entry units would
>become Once-In-A-Lifetime for all species.
>With this change there would
>be a couple thousand people
>that would only be able
>to hunt general season from
>that time on, but because
>it opens up the LE
>unit to be drawn more
>frequently, people from the general
>season pool would opt to
>wait several years for the
>LE tag, and could even
>out those numbers. I know
>some will say, "look at
>current OIL tags, their point
>creep is ridiculous!" Yes, I
>know, but with deer and
>elk it is different because
>of the option for general
>season hunting. Currently, OIL tags
>like Bighorn and Moose also
>allow you to put in
>for general season deer or
>elk, etc. As I have
>outlined above, my plan doesn't
>allow for that. You choose
>to put in for the
>LE tags until you draw
>them, and then you hunt
>general season forever after that.
>Or buy CWMU tags.
>
>Now, I don't exactly agree with
>the steps I've outlined above,
>but they are four tough
>steps that I think would
>"fix" the point creep in
>Utah. Tag numbers would stay
>the same, but people will
>have to start choosing what
>and where they want to
>hunt, and would not have
>"fall back" options when the
>better option doesn't work out.
>
>
>Also, because my plan would keep
>tag numbers relatively the same
>as they are now, the
>state can still manage for
>trophy animals in order to
>sell off tags at auctions
>and banquets and things. Nobody
>gets hurt there. And, those
>few hundred tags do generate
>a lot of money. And
>those people tend to pull
>a lot of strings... So...
>give baby their bottle.
>
>So, the super-rich get their cake
>(Auction tags). The rich get
>their cake (CWMU and private
>lands), and the rest of
>us can have increased opportunity
>for LE tags if we
>choose to. And we can
>all enjoy general season hunting
>more often.
>
>"Therefore, wo be unto him that
>is at ease in Zion!"
>2 Ne. 28: 24
I agree with most of this....although I don't live in planet Utah. When it comes to LE drawings it should be once in a lifetime per species and one choice a year. Idaho has it part right in that any controlled hunt drawing you must chose 1 species to apply for that year...do you really need to be allowed to put in for a moose, sheep, goat, trophy deer etc all in the same year, do you really need or even want to draw all those tags.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,577
Sticksender said:
"Bonus point system, preference point systems, hybrid systems, or random draws, doesn't matter which, the basic issue with high-demand hunts is that there are too many people wanting too-few tags. Plain and simple, there is no "fix" for that. When you have 500 people wanting 1 available tag, not everyone can draw in their lifetime"
Dem is da facts gentleman. You want to solve the point "problem"? Just make all tags OTC. Poof problem solved. What, then there is no quality? Hmm.
You can't have it both ways. As someone mentioned, don't solve the unsolvable. Build for a couple of really good hunts in your lifetime, and otherwise take your kids hunting and JUST HUNT.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
"Bonus point system, preference point systems, hybrid systems, or random draws, doesn't matter which, the basic issue with high-demand hunts is that there are too many people wanting too-few tags. Plain and simple, there is no "fix" for that. When you have 500 people wanting 1 available tag, not everyone can draw in their lifetime"
Dem is da facts gentleman. You want to solve the point "problem"? Just make all tags OTC. Poof problem solved. What, then there is no quality? Hmm.
You can't have it both ways. As someone mentioned, don't solve the unsolvable. Build for a couple of really good hunts in your lifetime, and otherwise take your kids hunting and JUST HUNT.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
cbeard
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,458
I agree with txhunter58.
The states can't solve the problem of not enough supply for the demand. Although they are not perfect, each of them try to deal with it as best they can. IMO they strike a good balance. (All but Utah - that's another thread.) I, too, like the diversity of the different state systems.
The system is not broken. It's just trying to deal with an impossible situation as best it can. Bottom line is this: if 500,1000, or 2000 people all want tags and there are only a handful available - then a lot of folks are going to be left out. That's not the fault of any draw system.
There are lots of hunting opportunities to be had every year. With a little homework, everyone can put in place a plan that will give them quality hunts every year, great hunts every few years, and a chance at a OIL hunt or two during their lifetimes.
The states can't solve the problem of not enough supply for the demand. Although they are not perfect, each of them try to deal with it as best they can. IMO they strike a good balance. (All but Utah - that's another thread.) I, too, like the diversity of the different state systems.
The system is not broken. It's just trying to deal with an impossible situation as best it can. Bottom line is this: if 500,1000, or 2000 people all want tags and there are only a handful available - then a lot of folks are going to be left out. That's not the fault of any draw system.
There are lots of hunting opportunities to be had every year. With a little homework, everyone can put in place a plan that will give them quality hunts every year, great hunts every few years, and a chance at a OIL hunt or two during their lifetimes.
LAST EDITED ON May-03-16 AT 08:03AM (MST)[p]If you attended last Thursday wildlife board meeting and stayed the entire time, or watched the 6+ hour meeting til the end on YouTube, you would have noticed that Bair brought up the loophole and the PP system. The division plans on addressing the system further in some upcoming meetings. If a change occurs, I'm guessing it might be in 2017.
"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
