Resident Draw Frustration

W

wymoosehunter

Active Member
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134
I had to wait a little while after the draw before posting as I probably would have written something I would regret later.
I have not drawn an elk tag in 10 years as a resident and I am not putting in for units with sheep odds. The odds are generally around 25%-35% for the units I apply for. Almost the same with deer, however, I did draw a deer in 2005. What is really torquing me off is the antelope. I have drawn two 1st choice tags in ten years and draw odds are way better than deer and elk draw odds-about 50% for the unit I apply for.
Luckily, I draw a second or third choice antelope every year-but those units generally sux for quality goats. I can buy a general elk tag and drive halfway across the state to go to a general unit (which has never let me down) and hunt every year. However, deer general areas even remotely near me suck! I won't even think about buying a general deer tag ever again, let alone kill one of the three or four bucks that inhabit territory that should harbor hundreds. WY G&F is still issuing doe deer tags and wondering why they are still declining in numbers.
I guess the point of my rant are the following points:
1. WY G&F is not biologically driven, but driven by the $$$$$$$$$ and WY G&F just gives lip service to healthy herds. Just sell more NR tags, "we can fund something with the revenue" is their new motto. Example, Unit 102 deer, WY G&F issued 370 total tags. There aren't 370 three-year old bucks in that whole unit-we just keep killing off our future.
2. WY has to get with the program and do unto others as they do unto us. Start limiting NR tags to 15% max, and enact reciprocity for every state. For example, California limits NR's to one elk permit across that entire state, therefore, only one Californian could draw an elk tag in this state-be it a regional or LQ. Don't get me wrong, I like NR hunters and I like to hunt other states too, but the playing field needs leveled.
3. To support the above assertions, in the units I applied for, NR's received 22% of all antelope tags, 16% of all deer tags (actually, in my opinion, that is a good ratio), and 23% of all elk tags went to NR's.
I know I just don't have the mojo or something to draw in this state, but this is ridiculous.
At least I feel better now, getting this off my chest, but we do need to fix our G&F biologically speaking and enact reciprocity.
Okay, rant over. Those of you NR's that did draw, I will help you out with info if you pm me.
WyMo
 
i put in for 12 years for a late season bull tag. now we dont even have late season tags since the game and fish took them away. but when they did hand them out some guys got them every other year. its a shame i never got to harvest a bull in the late season. i hunted with others and it was a blast.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-12 AT 09:37PM (MST)[p]"I had to wait a little while after the draw before posting as I probably would have written something I would regret later."

Really! IMHO you should have just kept it to yourself because blaming all your problems on us nonresidents is a bunch of BS. It's always the fault of nonresidents for every GD thing that comes up in the western states when somebody has a problem like you expressed. FYI, if it wasn't for us NRs and our expensive licenses, application fees, PPs fees, etc. you'd be paying twice as much for your license as what ours cost or wouldn't even have a G&F Dept. to manage the herds. My buddy in Sheridan drew a LE antelope, LE elk, LE deer, and a cow elk tag and all of them together didn't cost what one friggin tag of mine would cost, so go cry somewhere else!!! Sorry, but these kinds of posts piss me off when somebody doesn't get drawn in a random draw for a number of years. This happens to some now and then because that's just why they call the draws random, but please don't blame it on NRs! If you want your problem fixed, have the G&F enact a provision so that a resident gets a first choice license very three years or something like that. It's either that or cut way back on NRs and be prepared to pay three digit numbers for each of your tags to make up for the loss of revenue to keep your G&F in business if we get cut out like you want. Are you prepared to do that because most residents don't even like what they're paying now. IMHO your low license fees are outright ridiculous for what you are getting for the money outlay!
 
I like your idea. I live in WA where there are no nonresident tags set aside, nonresidents and residents have the same chance of drawing a tag out of the same pool.

"Go hunt for meat at Wall Mart."
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-12 AT 11:29PM (MST)[p]Well, if you want to see NR quotas decreased, you'd best be talking to your elected representatives. Or better yet, call Wyoming SFW. They represent Wyoming hunters don't they?

At any rate, I couldn't imagine NR quotas ever being cut. Too many ranchislators are lining their pockets with out of state hunter bucks. I've only drawn one limited quota deer tag in my life. Rather than fight it, I've started sucking it up and begin saving cash every January. Booked another guided deer hunt in a general area at 8am the day of the draw...
 
Well look at it this way...You(as is in residents) could always make up the difference(as in $$$$$$$$) I always tell the Idaho guys the same thing(where I grew up) Quit your whining or move to a different state and put in as a non resident. I feel your pain but at the same time I feel the draw is a just that a draw. They are not discriminating against you because you are a resident, and since you are helping the non residents out where are the 90' speed goats in unit 80?
 
Well, lets see. Im a non rez and have never drawn elk or deer and only antelpe tags i have drawn are doe/fawn tags. Never have i drawn a buck antelope tag. So hows those odds for you.
I have put in for bull elk, buck deer, buck antelope, and bighorn sheep in my home state and never have drawn. Only tags in my home state i have drawn is cow elk with a 90% draw rate.
You can complain all you want, but there are just going to be some of us that dont draw. I dont. Sucks. But i make due with what i am given and make the most of it. Its all ya can do.
 
I think every state has some bitter residents that feel it is always the non-ressy fault for drawing 'a ressy ' tag.

I am very pro non-ressy as we all are a non-ressy in all but 1 state.

In my home state when fellow ressy's get all fired up about a non-ressy drawing and they didn't and how we should cut the non-ressy tags.....

I remind them that we are in different draw pools and not really competing for the same tag allocation.

I try to explain that even if they did cut non-ressy tags it would only increase a ressy odd to draw by about 1 maybe 2 % to draw a given unit/species.

To me, I don't see any real value nor benefit in having 2-3 more ressy tags and 2-3 less non-ressy tags in any given unit/species in my home state.

Robb
 
If it bothers you that much then move to another state. Seems many believe they have it the worst and the grass is always greener elsewhere. Not true. Research some into what other states have for issues and you'll soon find they all have problems where the residents feel short changed. Its just the nature of the beast. Maybe you need to pick a different unit? I know I have had to change up and still have come up short. I am learning and playing the game and staying diversified.

BTW Topgun? You may need to step away from the coffee or Mountain Dew a little. Hell you got my blood pressure up! :)

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
 
Oh yeah, got em all fired up! Maybe I wasn't articulate enough-but one of the main points of the post was that WY G&F is a money whore. I did throw in reciprocity as just a basic fairness issue, but the main point is that WY G&F just wants the NR $.
Look at NR sheep and moose, $100 point fee, close to the highest sheep/moose tag costs once you have invested thousands of $ to get the points to draw, guide requirements, giving out way too many tags (biologically speaking),...the list goes on. IT simply is about the NR $ to WY G&F.
I am actually in the NR corner on this one.
I do believe WY has to come to market costs for Resident tags, WY can't treat the NR as a money bag to the detriment of the herds, WY has to charge Residents enough to cover costs (subsidies don't work in any business), and the playing field has to be level.

TG, perhaps you should read critically, not topically. As to the contention that I blame NR's-that is crap- I blame WY G&F. I host more NR hunters every year than most outfitters, and provide tons of help to those that ask for info. But the NR's I host are guaranteed tags every 1-3 (4 for deer) years for all species, I put in for the same units, and have drawn 2 goat and one deer-come on, even you can see the logic to that feeling of frustration. So what really happens, is every year I set up camp, provide most of the equipment, and play host to lots of NR friends/family/acquaintances who get to hunt my home units far more often than I do.
 
tailchasers---Not to worry on the coffee or MD as I don't touch either. I'm a Pepsi freak and have more in the pantry than most C stores, LOL! Sorry, but the OP just hit me wrong when I hear stuff like the NRs are screwing the Res in the draws, the NRs are road hunters and trespassers, the NRs are shooting all dinks and not letting the bucks grow up for the trophy hunters, etc., etc. It gets old after a while!
 
"Wyoming G & F wants the NR $ "
Tell it like it is they need our $
To me it's an easy fix implement a P.P. system for Residents and eventually you will get to hunt the unit you want.
 
Every one of your rants is a result of state law, not a WGF regulation.
The state legislature establishes the license costs, the license allocation, and the WGF funding model. If you want changes to these you need to change state statutes. Its not the department's fault you can't draw a license.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-12 AT 09:10AM (MST)[p]You were articulate enough and many don't agree with you, as evidenced by the responses to your post already! Where do you expect the G&F to get the money they need to operate? They only get General Fund money if they are in dire straights and have to go begging to your Legislature to build a new fish hatchery, office building, etc. Then it's not assured it will be forthcoming. They sure can't rely on the resident hunters who get pissed if they think there is even a chance their license fee might go up 5 or 10 bucks in a ten year time frame! Your G&F is no different than any other G&F agency out in the mountain states that relies on the NR hunter for the bulk of their operating revenue. Money whore---I think not! Cheapo residents--you damn betcha! People want to hunt sheep, moose, elk, and mountain goats that are only in a very few states and it's going to cost them for the priviledge of drawing one of the few tags available. I don't disagree that they have screwed up and given too many tags for certain animals in certain areas, but it's not just NR tags. Look at the way residents can still hunt deer in Regions G & H on a general tag and the cry I keep hearing is cut way back on the NR LE tags! It appears the G&F people have now listened to sportspersons and this Spring, as I'm sure you're aware, cut the heck out of tags for deer and antelope in a lot of areas where the weather wacked them year before last. You gripe about not drawing a tag, but when it takes me at least 6 years and well over $1000 just to be in the running for one bull elk tag where I want to hunt, it's hard for me to shed any tears for you. I would also argue your statement that your NRs are guaranteed a tag every few years. None of us are guaranteed a tag unless we have enough PPs to get drawn because there aren't enough applicants for the available tags. Look at the draws this year with the tag cuts and there are tons of people crying all over the internet that they had a lot of PPs and didn't get drawn when they thought it was a sure thing. The only sure thing, as the old saying goes, is death and taxes! I'm sorry you have terribly bad luck drawing a tag, but they are drawn at random and it doesn't favor any one particular person. To blame it on the G&F when the only way they can exist is from NR money the way it's set up right now is just not right IMHO. Just be happy you can get out and enjoy the outdoors as you say you're doing. I do the same as you, since I can truly say I have just as much or more fun helpng others than pulling the trigger myself. That may be because I've hunted for 60 years and seeing as I don't know your age and how much you have been able to get out like I have, maybe that is what is causing your frustration. Anyway, good luck in the future and if you're not happy with the way things are being run, I would suggest you contact your Reps. and try to effect changes to the system.
 
I agree with wyomoose, WY gives more of our tags to non residents than most any western state, plus non residents are guaranteed to eventually draw the tag they want, residents obviously are not. I too know a guy who has applied unsuccessfully for seven years in an area that has 1:3 odds. That just isn't right when he has nothing to show for seven years of bad luck (no point system) while selfish ignorant a$$holes who have been more fortunate tell him to quit whining...

Wyoming SHOULD cut the non resident quota back by at least 5% but as everyone knows they are driven by dollars, not fairness for resident hunters or quality bucks.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-12 AT 11:18AM (MST)[p]alaska_bou stated: "That just isn't right when he has nothing to show for seven years of bad luck (no point system) while selfish ignorant a$$holes who have been more fortunate tell him to quit whining...Wyoming SHOULD cut the non resident quota back by at least 5% but as everyone knows they are driven by dollars, not fairness for resident hunters or quality bucks."

The only person that fits that language is the one who posted it! Unless you're a clairvoyant, how in the he** do you know how fortunate us selfish, ignorant a$$holes have been? He could always move up here and be able to buy 2 OTC whitetail buck tags for $15 a piece, but if he wants to hunt our elk he might not draw a resident tag in his lifetime. That's the only big game we have, so is that fair? Sure it is because he would be just like everybody else with the same chance of drawing. Cutting the Wyoming NR tags by 5% won't do squat in changing his chances in his draw when it's all done randomly. Please get off your highhorse and if you don't like what's happening get it changed or move!
 
bou---Why don't you tell us the answer to your question since you appear to know everything and also feel the G&F doesn't know squat and are money whores!
 
Topgun, sounds like you get all hot and bothered if someone expresses a different opinion than you do? IMO WY should cut NR tags by 5%. IMO WY should implement a squared bonus point system for residents. Nonresidents are guaranteed to eventually draw tags that RESIDENTS are never guaranteed to draw, how is that right? Most of us don't live on this forum like you do, but that does not mean other people's opinions are invalid... Deal with it.
 
What does a 5% cut in NR tags accomplish?

Residents can hunt OTC every year...Non Residents don't have that option.

Also, if you want to be able to guaranty residents eventually draw, you need a preference point system, as the squared bonus point system never guaranties anything.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-12 AT 12:12PM (MST)[p]alaska_bou---I have no problem with anyone expressing their opinions on anything. However, I, and I imagine the other members who were stating their opinions, have a problem with and don't care to be referred to as "selfish, ignorant, assholes!", especially when it's merely because we live in a different state than you! Also, since when does it matter how often a person is on a particular website? Some day maybe you'll be retired like I've been for 10 years and be able to do whatever, whenever you like to such as hunt 4 states over 11 weeks like I did last Fall! Deal with it man because life ain't fair, LOL!
 
whitwell; The 5% NR cut should go back to resident hunters, IMO, thus improving resident draw odds.

There are many leftover licenses in WY for regional deer, elk and antelope every year for non residents. Your options are listed in the G&F website...
 
bou---So what's your problem with my first post? I told him IMHO his blaming his problems on the NRs like a lot do is BS and suggested some reasons why and what he could do if he didn't like the present system. Nowhere did I use any foul language or call him anything like you did when you came on with your first post. Just maybe you're the one who should read the first you put up! A 5% cut in NR tags that would be put into the resident pool would do little to basically nothing to cure the problem expressed by the OP because he would still be in a random draw. It just sounds like he's snakebit and we can't help him on that, but I do understand his plight.
 
alaska_bou

How many handles your got here on M&M?

Welcome back to the blog though....as ---alaska_bou

How is your scouting going for this fall?

Robb
 
It sounds like some people are stupid enough to think the NR is the the reason they don't have enough points to draw a tag. maybe you need a point system?

If you cut the NR quota by 10% it would give you a 10% better chance of drawing as a resident. if you haven't drawn in 15 years that 10% isn't going to make you draw every other year any way you figure it.

Wyoming is very generous to the NR hunter and I appreciate it, by the same token we're very generous to Wy. my wife and I have finally drawn some tags and quit applying for some species because we'll never draw again but we used to pay WY a total of $630 in draw fees and preference point fees and most years didn't hunt a thing there.



I've hunted in WY and I'd be the last to gripe about the hunts or how I was treated by the residents. all I can say is you don't know how good you have it, give us a break .








Stay thirsty my friends
 
As a resident Wyoming hunter the draw is not that big of a deal to me. Last year on a general elk unit I saw a 350 bull in archery range after I shot my cow. I saw a 200+ inch buck on a general unit and had shooting opportunities at numerous 180 + bucks. I ended up with a 165 buck that I thought was a bit bigger. I also had a shot at an 82 inch lope in a general unit. The 12 year old kid I was hunting with was more than excited when he got first shot and dropped it in its tracks.

I put in for the draw but this was the first year where I was actually afraid that I might draw a LE tag and not be able to hunt general units. With a little work the general units are great.

That being said I wish all Western States would standardize their non-resident tags. It might stop some of the BS. I try and hunt as many other states as I can! it's all about the adventure for me.
 
Utah400Elk---After reading your post, I have to make one more comment here and you really hit on it as a Wyoming resident. I'm more than envious that you guys can buy a general tag for elk and deer every year out there and hunt some fantastic country ans see animals like you mentioned in your post, especially for such low fees compared to the NR fees we pay. A guy may not be able to draw those great units on a regular basis, but to be able to be guaranteed licenses every year like you are is hard to beat and one of the main reasons I was upset at the OP and his statements.
 
Look how Idaho handles their NR system. Non residents only receive 0% (zero) to a maximum of only 10% and of course no PP's to build on. If you remember correctly WY adopted a PP system for non residents because so many NR complained. Most (most does not mean all) of the people that would think I am being unreasonable by suggesting WY gives too many licenses to non residents are non residents. Go figure.

Topgun, most western states have virtually guaranteed tags. You too could draw a bull elk tag EVERY YEAR in WY, CO, MT, ID, NM, etc if you wanted to hunt those areas.
 
It is a privilege to live and hunt in Wyoming. I don't begrudge the non residents or my neighbors. There are some great bucks (deer and antelope) and great bulls. Of course I think the deer hunting is far better here than the vast majority of resident and non-resident hunters do, so what do I know...?
 
"Topgun, most western states have virtually guaranteed tags. You too could draw a bull elk tag EVERY YEAR in WY, CO, MT, ID, NM, etc if you wanted to hunt those areas."

I'd really like you to expand on that statement because I believe you are incorrect when you say guaranteed in all those states as I'd be doing it if that were the case. There are only two states you named that have any OTC elk tags (CO and ID). You would have to be darn lucky to draw one in WY every year, but it could be done in the random draw the way it's set up. The same thing would be true in MT because you have to draw for a general tag and then put in again to try for a much harder to draw LE tag. The same would be true in NM unless you bought a landowner tag like that state has available.
 
I hate to shoot holes in your argument but right now there are leftover bull elk licenses here in WY and if you do your research you will find there are areas that offer 100% draw odds for 0 points to non residents on an annual basis. The same is true with antelope and deer tags. There are many available on a first-come first-served basis starting July 10th. If you wanted to you could hunt elk, deer and antelope every year in WY as a non resident.

I would be happy to give similar detail in other western states.I am not talking about expensive landowner tags.
 
Yes it is about the money. WY is a revenue poor state without a large tax base. Is the legislature still a part time winter job, perfect for off season ranchers and outfitters? It is what it is... Still pretty good opportunity for all.
 
Yes, we are all very fortunate for what we do have, no doubt about that. Although WY is THE most tax-friendly state in the US (not even a state income tax!) our state is pretty well off from the taxes generated from the energy industry. The last I read our state's tax surplus was more than 500+ million that isn't getting used...
 
Here is the thing. You live in a state that a lot of sportsman want to hunt.(Lucky You) But most of us live in states that(like you) attract people from other states. The fact of the matter is the F&G make there living(pay the bills) from the guys dumb enough to pay the fee's. We all want a supreme tag. So we are willing to pay the money(the bills for the F&G) to hunt any where and every where. Do you put in for Utah or New Mexico, Arizona? If not you are obviously not like the rest of us who just want a supreme tag. And if you do then you pray for the odds the wyoming non-res. get. If you dont than hunt general season every year and be content.
 
Hey all. I'm pretty new here... Reading these posts are very interesting. Being a resident of Wyo, I feel the frustration of never drawing premium tags. But on the other hand it has given me the opportunity to research and hunt many areas that I never would have if I would be drawing the tags I wanted. I don't think there is a simple solution to any of it. I dont blame the NR's and quite enjoy having them come to our state, as I enjoy opportunities to hunt other states. The only thing I can contribute here that isn't a secret is the fact that WY G&F definitely needs to do something to start managing our herds statewide. I wouldn't mind paying quite a bit more for a quality hunt every few years here at home. Every state has their problems..... Unfortunately no state will ever be like it was in the good old days.... Guess I better build a time machine!
 
"I wouldn't mind paying quite a bit more for a quality hunt every few years here at home."

And therein lies the problem. You're not going to get a quality hunt "every few years" because there are too many people. It's no different in WY than any other state. The notion that points will somehow make that happen isn't the case. The only hunts that happen every few years in "point states" are in the scrub units and those "quality" hunts are more than a decade away, provided you are in the max point pool. When guys are a cpl points behind you'll see them wanting to morph the system in the name of "getting kids involved".
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-12 AT 12:08PM (MST)[p]That's basically what I was trying to get across when I made that last post in regards to what alaska_bou stated. I would suggest that a Wyoming resident could do the same as he's telling me I can. I'm well aware of what is left over in the WY draws since I normally buy some leftover tags every year, but I was talking about trying to draw other than a general elk or deer tag as well as an antelope tag in an area that's not either no good or is overrun with people. I guess my point is that unless it's an OTC tag that I don't think anything should be considered "guaranteed" when you have to draw or wait until after the draw to see what's left. However, I will definitely agree that alaska_bou is correct that if a NR just wants to hunt what I call the "big three" anywhere he can get a tag if he's not real picky and isn't looking for a trophy. Also, I would agree with the previous post that sometimes you can find some darn good spots in general units or even easy to draw units that are darn good if you have time to do a lot of searching.
 
I always read these posts with a bit of laughter and also frustration. Here are the issues to me:

1. Fairness. It might be statistically vaild that every resident has a RANDOM chance to draw a quality deer, elk or antelope unit every year. But it just does not work out, as has been mentioned above. Some sort of point system would help alleviate that problem. (And G&F could make $$ in the process.) I tried to draw an antelope area that had 30-40% success for 15 years. Never got a license, while some others had 4-5 licenses. That's not fair. We need some sort of fairness in the distribution of our resident licenses.
2. Quality. Regardless of what is said, there are some areas of our beloved state that have higher quality hunts than others. I'd really like to have a hunt in a quality area every few years. Good management and a point system would help that issue. And as has been montioned,. Wyoming is not like every other western state. We still have under 600,000 people in the whole state, so we would not likely have to wait as long as residents of other states.

Our general areas are fine, but there are better hunts - IF YOU CAN DRAW THEM.

All the nonresident stuff aside, these are the things that matter most to many of us that live here. I'm not going to discuss the % license allocation to nonresidents. I'd pay more for a quality hunt and apply in other states for that opportunity every year. I can't speak for everyone, but I am confident that most people in Wyoming would like to see greater fairness in the drawings and more quality hunts available.

The heck of it is, no one can agree on how to accomplish that goal.
 
ICMDEER---I understand where you're coming from as far as your statement regarding the random draw possibly screwing some of the people year after year. I think that may be okay for us NRs along with the PP system we have up to a point where turnover takes more than 7 or 8 years. Insufficient turnaround within a decent number of years really screws the people starting out, especially youngsters, as are they are efffectively screwed out of quality hunt areas for long periods of time. Therefore, since the hunting population of residents is fairly low in Wyoming, it would seem like they could come up with some system where a person could only draw a first choice every three or four years, thus giving the guy like you're talking about his chance to draw the better tag while the guy who already did might have to hunt another choice or the general tag for several years so that things equal out. It would be sort of like some of these tags that are already that way and you have a waiting period to apply after drawing that license, but this would apply just for your first choice and allow you to keep hunting other lesser units every year. Do you resident guys think something like that would work and eliminate what the OP and others are rightfully objecting to right now? It seems like a program could be set up in the software to monitor and control it withour resorting to PPs, which I understand most residents are against.
 
Well I am a resident and the discussion on this will be never ending and no one will be completely happy. I understand where ICMDEER is coming from, I have went through that with antelope and elk and my wife has went 11 yrs at one point without drawing an elk tag (but there are lots of General areas in Wyoming that have great hunting). Odds say you should draw sooner than that and some do and some don't, it is what it is. TOPGUN, your idea seems to be something a person could look at and could work, but when it comes down to it, there is nothing more fair than the Random Draw. The Random Draw ensures that everyone who applies is equal and we all know what the odds are of drawing that LE tag before we put in. When odds are less than 50%, we all know we have Better odds of Not drawing, that is a choice we all make when we put in for quality tags. But we as hunters and outdoorsman have to ensure that our kids and new comers have a chance to draw a quality area (they are the future of our heritage) and the random draw lets them have an equal opportunity to draw a quality area every year. If we went to a PP or BP system all that ensures is telling our future hunters that it will take two or five or ten yrs to draw that tag, (see moose and sheep) that's what I see as not fair. If someone comes up with a way to make it more fair than a random draw let me know, I just can't come up with a better way, IMO...
 
WY residents have it pretty good IMO. An OTC deer tag valid to hunt any region in the state. Must be nice to skip from region H to G if you wanted to. Then skip on over to another region and hunt. Also a general elk tag.

I can agree that WY should try some sort of resident point system or something. It would be nice for the residents to have somewhat of an idea when and where they could draw some of the limited quota tags.
 
Talk like this turns up every year after the draw. It does none of us any good. We need to understand and support each other if quality hunting is to continue in Wyoming and other western states.
There are not enough of us residents in Wyoming to fully support quality game management programs with out help from Non resident dollars. That said it is probably safe to say that the average non resident in any state probably hunts harder than the average resident. He has more money invested in his hunt and is probably more serious a hunter evidenced by his willingness to invest more. There are those rich hunters who aren't very skilled but make up for it by hiring local outfitters. Residents in any state include the whole range of the hunting public from the exceptional to the beginner. Some residents get frustrated but if fees were increased substantially many would not hunt which means less political influence in local land use decisions. As it is it is already difficult enough for Wyoming resident hunters like myself to compete politically with agricultural interests and energy interests. We need to maintain this support base. On the other hand hunters across the country are critical for conservation programs by such groups as RMEF and such. They are also critical for support in land use decisions that impact federally owned public lands.

Lets work together for the common good and stop the bitching
 
I agree with WB that discussion is good as long as we don't start calling each other selfish arrogant azzholes, LOL, and you never know when someone might just hit on a better plan that will work!
 
Its easy to come up with a better system than a plain random draw, simply give a point for not drawing, an extra number in the hat for next year.
It wont assure a tag next time, but you will have a better chance, and it won't be so heavily weighted against those without any points.
Thats how Nevada did it for years, no gimmics, just a good way to make things better for us not so lucky folks.
 
That would definitely be simple and may just be the answer. I wonder if that suggestion has been presented to hunting groups and the G&F to see what would be said about it.
 
Well alot has been said here but I'll make a comment. As a non res wy has been good to me. I think residnets have it pretty good with the gen tags. If I were a res I would be pushing for a point system of some kind. Not true preference like Colorado, but not true random like it is now. The only tags I seem to get are when I have 100% of getting it in the max point pool. I am that guy like wymoose that never seems to have the random odds work in my favor. I am not the lucky guy. The one that has only a 10% chance of drawing every year and has hunted the unit 8 of the last 10 years and is mad that he didn't get it on 2 of them.
 
Piper, I have to say that may be the best way to do it! would be interesting to see this implemented in a few LE areas that are hard draws and see if it does work....
 
I can't argue with that suggestion. Gives everyone a chance and gives preference to those who deserve it.

I also think youth should get preference. Maybe a special pool or even an earlier start date. As has been mentioned, we need to recruit and enthuse the future of hunting. Nevada also has a special way of handling that and it seems to work pretty well. I think AZ and NM have youth hunts as well. Gota be soem way to help out those younger hunters.
 
I notice the residents that always draw a tag are pretty quiet on this subject.The last time I drew a deer tag in Wy was 2000.My last LQ elk tag was '88 or '89.Any non res would have drawn a tag in that period of time if they had points.Once again,I get the shaft,while the "lucky few" continue to draw the best tags.I just don't see how that system is fair.I wouldn't be complaining if I actually drew a deer or elk tag once every 6-8 yrs.A friend of mine drew the same deer tag as he did last year.The odds on that have gone from 6.6% last year to 5.4% this year.Another guy drew his 3rd elk tag in the last 10 yrs in a unit that hosts draw odds of around 12%.Can anyone tell me why I can't draw one of those tags?Is the random system really fair?Or is it just fair to the lucky few?
I feel the frustration of the OP on this one.As crappy as my luck is,I know many who have even worse luck than I do.Since I drew my last LQ deer or elk tag in Wy,I have been able to hunt LQ deer in Utah,Colorado,Nevada(this year will be my third).I've hunted whiteys in Iowa twice since 2009,and had an Arizona elk tag once.No,I'm not luckier in those states-they all have a system that helps out unlucky guys like me.Why shouldn't I be able to hunt LQ in my own state once in awhile?IMO,the "random" system SUCKS!
Yes;I am whining.I don't feel that pref pts are the answer,but maybe a squared B.P.system like Nv has;along with a 2-3 yr waiting period after you draw.Maybe general units would provide better hunting if Wy made you pick a region or unit when you purchased your license.But IMO,something needs to change here,because the present "random" system SUCKS!!

Also,Wy G&F will be applying to the legislature for res fee increases very soon.IMO,this is overdue.
 
nontypical,

I can see why you are frustrated. It has certainly been awhile since you have drawn a tag. That being said I still think the random draw is fair. To me fair does not mean getting a tag every year, two years, decade or century, but rather having the same equal chance as everyone else in the draw. Since we all have our own opinions we can agree to disagree. Best of luck to you this season.

I agree with you on the fee increase. At 10X the price it is still the best deal around.
 
I can see the frustration too, but I look at it this way. My buddy just drew LE antelope, bull elk, mule deer, and a cow tag for the total cost of $186. My cheapest license in that whole bunch is $286 and the total for the four if I drew all of them would be $1505, so it's hard to cry too much when I see that kind of disparity and who is paying for the bulk of the G&F budget. Maybe if all the resident hunters were willing to pay a much greater percentage of the budget the G&F would change the tag allocation to favor you---just a thought!
 
I agree with nontypical, something has to be done with wyoming's current random system. It truelly does suck. I have been a wyoming resident my entire life. I have been applying for limited quota tags for 23 years. And guess how many deer and elk tags I have drawn? One of each, and that little miracle happened last year. I drew a deer tag that had good drawing odds, I guess I just wanted to draw something. And I drew a area 100 elk tag for bulls. Yes I was a happy camper. but should it take 22 years to draw a tag when guys are drawing good tags 3-4 times in a ten year span. I think it sucks and something should be done differently..... Just my 2 cents worth
 
So change the whole system again so those once max point holders that already drew premium hunts get their names thrown back in the hat again? No thanks.

Residents get to hunt the general units for huge periods of time, every year, until Wyoming changes that I would not be in favor of any other changes.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-12 AT 08:45PM (MST)[p]Lots of good comments on this thread...and lots of whiners as well.

For starters, WY doesnt need any special youth hunts. Any sorry excuse for a parent that cant find a minimum of a boatload of opportunity for youth now...couldnt find oil with a dipstick.

As to the draw, no need to create a "system".

Life isnt fair and point systems dont make it any more fair.

I've not had "good" luck in the draws, but through applying for multiple states for many species for many years, I've stumbled into some tags.

I think how you apply and what you apply for will largely determine how often and how many tags you draw. For example, I've had 3 bull elk tags in Arizona the last 5 years, drew a good unit last year, and drew the same tag this year. I also drew a Missouri Breaks bull elk permit in MT last year after applying for 20+ years. I applied for a musk ox tag in AK last year for the first time ever...and drew one of two NR permits. I applied for goat in MT for 20 years before drawing...but drew moose within about 10 years. I also went through a stretch several years ago of NOT drawing a first choice antelope 3 years in a row in Wyoming applying in an area with 90% plus draw odds. It happens. I also remember applying for a turkey permit in MT in a newly opened area many years ago with 25 tags available...28 people applied...take a guess who didnt draw?

This year I drew all my first choice picks for Wyoming...type 6 elk tag, type 6 antelope tags, type 1 LQ elk, type 1 LQ deer, and type 1 LQ antelope as well. Last year I drew a second choice antelope tag.

It all balances out...and I'm in favor of keeping the WY resident drawing random.
 
If you are putting in for areas with the draw odds of area 100 then you should expect to get a tag every 22 years.
 
BuzzH---Sounds like you and my buddy in Sheridan had the same great luck in the draw this year as he also drew all 3 LQ first choice tags he put in for, as well as a type 6 cow tag. Last year he didn't get squat and had to hunt deer on a general tag, so I guess it does even out for the most part over time for most people. He more than made up for Wyoming though by drawing a great archery elk tag in AZ and a great rifle mulie tag in NM. I do think that if a person wants to hunt every year that you can't beat the general tags the residents are privy to in case they don't draw their LQ pick. I think you're probably right on the youth comment too. I am one of the old school philosophers in that I think you need to earn what you get and it seems like many younguns nowadays seem to think they are entitled to a paycheck or whatever else they want/need without doing anything to earn it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-12 AT 10:29PM (MST)[p]We are talking about a point system for resident Antelope, deer and elk, not about changing the nonresident point system,
and a random draw does suck because it only favors luck, it doesnt favor effort, loyality or anything else, and thats the reason most other states have developed point systems, there was a lot of discontent among all the unlucky folks who would try and try and never draw, I mean life is only so long.

Im on my third year of no buck antelope tag and never have drawn a limited deer tag yet im no better off next year for the years of effort, at least I know that in Colorado,Arizona and Utah I will get a tag someday, not so in my home state, In Wyoming a little bad luck goes a long ways, and a person may never get to enjoy that area they have always wanted to hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-12 AT 07:49AM (MST)[p]piper---I think everyone on the thread knows we're talking about the resident system. I guess there are what you would call some "unlucky" people, but in a random draw everyone is equal. I don't know how you might help an "unlucky" person, other than maybe doing what was suggested by dropping their name in the hat once for each year they don't draw a first choice. With the limited number of residents in the state, I would think the turnaround would be sufficient to draw a good tag in less than 5 years in most of the units. However, it might not if you're talking about the cream of the crop units where there are a ton of applicants an also possibly not many tags. Personally, if I resided in Wyoming, I believe I would vote for the draw to remain the way it is because of the many great areas a deer or elk general tag is good for if you don't draw your LE choice. Also, I find it hard to see why you don't hunt buck antelope every year with the tons of tags that are out there even after the draw. I think most units that have accessible public land have some decent animals and even some really good ones if you do your homework.
 
TG,

You hit the nail on the head. In my opinion you can find a quality hunt for elk and deer every year in Wyoming as a resident with minimal effort and an antelope hunt every year with minimal expense. Now drawing that dream unit once every decade, that is another story but with the random draw at least you have a chance.
 
Piper,

I know you're talking about a WY resident preference system for elk, deer, and antelope.

I'm a WY resident and have been for 12 years, and I dont want a preference system.

I think you should also take a good close look at the "other states", and how well their point systems work.

In the best units in all the states you listed, there are units that are statistically impossible for many applicants to ever draw.

How much good are your points in Utah doing you on Desert sheep? How about a Henry Mtns deer tag?

Care to explain how those with less than max points will ever draw an Arizona Strip Deer tag? How about an early elk rifle rut hunt in unit 9?

The systems created often times eliminate ANY chance of drawing a tag for anyone other than those in the max point pools. Please explain how that creates a more "fair" system to those with less than max points?

The bottom line in Wyoming, there are lots of antelope areas that can be had on second choice tags that regularly produce B&C sized animals. The general areas for elk and deer are VERY good hunting.

Its also fair to note that a VAST majority of the animals taken in the hard to draw units are no better than those taken on general tags or even on leftover tags.

I suggest spending more time hunting and less time worrying about creating a bogus point system thats clearly not needed in Wyoming.
 
"Personally, if I resided in Wyoming, I believe I would vote for the draw to remain the way it is because of the many great areas a deer or elk general tag is good for if you don't draw your LE choice. "

As a resident, this reflects my way of looking at it. I live and hunt in G. Does the area have a potential for a lot more monster bucks? Absolutely. That being said, if you can't enjoy a deer hunt in this region, maybe you've lost sight of what the pleasures of hunting are. As is, residents can hunt it annually, nonresidents can realistically probably draw every couple or three years. There are other general units for elk and deer that may not warrant a good chance at a 200" buck or 360" bull, but still afford great hunts. I don't know that any of us living in Wyoming really have much room to complain. I've had years where I didn't get drawn for antelope, though could've if I'd put in for other areas. There are always trade offs. I would settle for never shooting anything bigger than a 155" muley to hunt annually over a better chance at a 200" muley, but only a chance every few years. I love to hunt to hunt, not because I need bigger animals to enjoy it...

For those that need bigger bone to have a satisfactory hunt, keep putting in in Nevada and Arizona and... I still think opportunity to hunt far and away needs to trump opportunity to shoot a monster if we want to maintain hunting as general privilege for the masses rather than an elitist opportunity for those with time, money,and the luck to hunt several states year in and year out.
 
mmwb---Excellent post from my perspective, as I share that same philosophy! I helped a buddy in NM and AZ last year and had just as much or more fun than if I had drawn the tags. The mentality that many have nowadays that you have to draw onr of the top tags and shoot a booner to have a good hunt is really more of what we're talking about than just enjoying hunting for what it is. I think a large segment of hunters are missing the real reason for being out there. If the members complaining about not drawing tags want to hunt, there is plenty of opportunity to do so all over the state. I'm happy to have a chance at a 150" buck every year on a leftover tag since there aren't many bigger than that where I hunt. Does it bother me? Nope, not in the least!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-12 AT 11:35AM (MST)[p]Once again, the "points debate" rears its ugly head. Buzz is so spot on when it comes to Preference Points, but there are still people who think a random draw is somehow inherently unfair.

Why do we need to create more areas in the West that will remove the opportunity to hunt for those not fortunate enough to be in the max point pool? Our youth will never make it out of the random pool in sheep and moose draws in Wyoming, why add the hard to draw deer and elk areas to the list? Even if a point system was put into place, many of us middle-aged guys wouldn't live long enough to see the benefit, as the areas with 5-15% draws odds would take YEARS to cycle through the backlog of points.

This year we didn't draw any limited deer or elk, but got our first buck antelope tags in 5 years. I guess we'll just take our general tags and enjoy the hunt! DId I mention that if I add in the archery seasons and my late season cow elk I can hunt big game from Aug 15 thru Dec 14th? What's not to like about WYO?
 
Don't mis-read what a lot of us are saying.I love being able to hunt on a general tag in Wy.While the opportunites may not be as good as they once were for quality hunting,the opportunity is still there to at least hunt.
Those of us complaining(whining)about rarely drawing an LQ tag are not talking about general hunting.We are talking about LQ hunts.General tags have nothing to do with this discussion.
By the sound of it,BuzzH has drawn more tags in Wy in 12 yrs than I have in my life.Of course,I put in for harder to draw units most of the time than he does.But these units are where I live.It's where I want to hunt.As many of you feel,I too enjoy going along with friends who draw good tags.I will accompany a buddy from Idaho who drew a good deer tag this year,and enjoy every minute of it!
I usually try to help most who pm me in regards to a unit they have drawn.
DWalton,the random draw HAS been inherently unfair to me and many others.The odds for the nonres in the pref pt pool are getting pretty good in many units after 6 yrs of having it in place.I'm not sure you can compare Wy to the other states regarding a resident point system due to our lower population base.Many of us would be elated to draw a tag once every 10-12 yrs!!BTW,I am past middle age.I am looking at just being lucky enough to draw one more tag before I'm too old to hunt the unit properly!
Also,let me point out that I HATE the preference pt system for moose and sheep for precisely the reason you stated.That system leaves youth and new hunters in the dust.But there are other ways that could help tilt the odds slightly in favor of an unlucky guy.Personally,I'm sick and tired of hearing the old "tough luck" crap from everyone.
The guys who draw love the system,and the guys who don't draw hate it.I guess I'm a hater.
 
I think we understand the situation is basically in regards to the harder to draw LE tags. The only way I can see to give everyone a shot at one of those tags every few years is to disallow a person from applying as a first choice in any LE units for a number of years once he has drawn a LE tag. It may even take a rule that one can't apply for any LE tags for so many years after drawing one. The number could be placed in the statute as five or whatever it would take to have a decent turnaround in most of the hard to draw units. That should accomplish what you guys want and still not be a PP system. A youth or anyone else applying for the first time could have a waiver and be able to apply for any of them from the getgo and once he/she draws a tag, then the same rule would apply. That would seem to be the only way to move people through the system and not shut out the youth, new residents, or new older hunters wanting into the system. All the while the system would still alow everyone to be elligible for general tags every year like the current system. I really have changed my philosophy on the PP issue after sitting back and listening to BuzzH and others state the way it hurts more than helps in many situations, especially the real low percenage draw units and anyone who is not in on the ground floor of a PP system.
 
nontypical,

How do you know what units I apply for, or the draw odds of same?

In the 12 years I've lived here I've drawn my first choice tags probably less than 25% of the time.

Statistically, I've probably had no better than average luck in Wyoming the last 12 years. I've drawn 2 LQ elk tags in an area with 15-20% draw odds. One LQ deer tag in a 20% odds area. I've drawn 7 first choice antelope tags (odds of 40-95%). Interestingly enough, I've not drawn first choice antelope tags 3 of the 5 years when I applied for units with 90%+ draw odds.

From a pure statistical standpoint, I could make a pretty good arguement that the random draw has been pretty unfair to me, in particular on antelope tags.

But, rather than whine, b itch and complain, I research and find good second choice options, closely check the leftover lists, etc. Further, I like the idea that nobody has any better odds than me of drawing a tag each year in Wyoming, which absolutely is the case.

There is nothing more unfair than a preference system (of any kind)...and conversely, nothing more fair than a random draw.

Any preference system will create EXACTLY the same scenerio that is happening with moose and sheep in Wyoming. Its already happening with the Non-resident system in what people think are the "best" units in Wyoming.

I'll pass on the preference system and take my chances on a fair random draw...every time.
 
If anyone has been successful 25% of the time over the last 12 years for deer and elk consider yourself VERY lucky. The fact is, many of us will never live long enough to get one of the most sought-after tags here in WY without a bonus point system.

I too do not like the current preference crap we are using for moose and sheep. A bonus point system would work much better without shutting out those with less-than-max points. BP's would not guarantee a license but would favor those who have put in the time to draw a tag like wyomoose and nontypical are talking about. It would simply be an "extra name in the hat." General areas would not change, no reason they would need to, and each year residents would likely still apply for the areas they always have.

Yes, WY certainly does offer great opportunities in over-the-counter areas. People must understand that not everyone has access to horses to reach areas such the Thoroughfare or may no longer have the physical ability to hike into the Wyoming range, etc. Or maybe a guy needs to work six days a week to support his family and cannot afford to invest days upon days to scout public/general areas... Examples like these should be considered before we call "BS or pretend they are all bad or selfish hunters" towards anyone favoring a BP system. Surely we are not ALL that narrow-minded?

To tell a person who has been religiously applying in an area with 30% odds to "quit whining" after unsuccessfully applying for 12+ years is not thinking clearly.. The "random" system only works for those lucky enough to be drawn. There IS a credible argument from wyomoose regarding the current system.

Another thing; to be honest I think a NR quota of 20% is very fair, I only wish other states would follow suit and be as generous with their NR tags (especially Idaho) as Wyoming is.. Its tough to see NR have much better odds than WY residents.

Topgun said himself " many younguns nowadays seem to think they are entitled to a paycheck or whatever else they want/need without doing anything to earn it ". Sounds hypocritical since your against any sort of a point system.. A point system does exactly that, it gives better odds to those who EARN it!


BuzzH, if I had your luck I would probably oppose a point system too. Call me selfish I guess...
 
"Topgun said himself " many younguns nowadays seem to think they are entitled to a paycheck or whatever else they want/need without doing anything to earn it ". Sounds hypocritical since your against any sort of a point system.. A point system does exactly that, it gives better odds to those who EARN it"

Please read what I said in my idea on how to help the youth, newcomers, and those who have been applying religiously year after year and not drawing the difficult tags. I think that would solve what all the NRs are talking about and not go to a PP system where if you're not in it the first year and from then on you're screwed!
 
Alaska-bou,

I havent drawn 25% of the elk and deer tags I've applied for...I'm 3/24 or about 12.5% successful. Most of the areas I apply for have better than 12% draw odds, so I'm not real lucky.

If I include antelope I'm 10/36, just a bit better than 25% draw odds.

Not sure how applying every year "earns" you anything...

The random system works because nobody has any better odds than you do for drawing a tag, real simple.

I admit that I used to fret over not drawing, wanted a more "fair" system, etc. I've found after applying for over 30 years for tags that they best...and most "fair" system for everyone is a pure random lottery.

Point systems of any kind discriminate against a vast majority of all applicants, just a simple fact.

As to the rest of your arguement, it takes effort and time to hunt the LQ areas, same as a general area. Many live in the make-believe world that drawing a LQ tag means automatic success and a trophy animal. Hate to burst their bubbles, but it doesnt work that way.

Hunting isnt supposed to be about "fair" or making it easier for those that arent committed, have physical limitations, or 6 day a week jobs.

Those are personal problems and personal choices...and frankly I'm not going to change the system to put the screws to the majority to make things "fair" for the few.
 
Agreed, a preference point system would do that until the pool turns over. A bonus point system would not. There is a big difference in the two. Nevada uses a system like this, it works and a friend of mine drew a desert bighorn tag after only six years.

Besides, if you take an area that has 1:6 odds, the pool would turn over every six years.
 
alaska_bou,

Besides, if you take an area that has 1:6 odds, the pool would turn over every six years.

Not necessarily true...you need to look at odds and how areas fluctuate over time.

Take an area that has 1:6 odds and publish it in the hunting fool or have Eastmans list it as a blue chip or whatever system they use. For that matter have the word get out locally that a couple B&C sized animals were taken in your 1:6 odds area.

Watch those odds drop like a rock and take 10-15-20 years to draw.

Plus, as people build points, they get in so deep, they look to only cash them in on the very best units. This creates much longer waiting times, and drops draw odds significantly.

Go back and check out the draw odds for some of the best antelope areas prior to the NR point system...check out the odds after the point system.

Tell me that anyone, except those with max points, have better odds NOW than they did prior to the NR point system.
 
That is true, but realize as one area goes down others would consequently go up in odds. Unless the number of total applicants dramatically rises, it is impossible for ALL areas to go down in odds.

If people would hold out for the very "best" units there would be fewer applicants in the "good" units, hence the "good" units would be much easier to draw and provide additional opportunity.

Just like with Nevade sheep, with a bonus system everyone would have a chance, it would not be limited to the max point holders.
 
Those with max points arent going to hunt "good" units...they're holding out for the "best".

Precisely why theres still 1858 people with max antelope points in Wyoming.

I'd bet most are waiting for red desert tags...and it will take a long time to clear them all with how few tags are given out there. The unluckiest of them could take 10 or more years for them to draw...

One antelope tag in 16+ years?

I still like my random odds better.
 
Perhaps they need to explore more options that may not have the publicity featured in hunting publications? I apply for pronghorn in an area that has 80%+ odds and have killed four bucks between 80-84 inches out of the last five tags drawn. Yes there is credibility to many of the areas these magazines write about, but people should not act like "sheep" without doing their own homework.
 
I agree with you that people need to explore their options, point systems or not.

I will oppose any point system for Resident antelope, deer, or elk in Wyoming.

I'm sure you would support one.

Most of the people I talk to like the random draw, most fair, no doubt about that.
 
BuzzH,
One thing you need to realize is that as Wyo's human population increases tags are going to be tougher and tougher to draw for Wyo residents. The current system is definitely the most fair to everyone that applies but I'm sure there are a lot of Wyo residents that complain every time they find out that someone has drawn several back to back tags. Obviously you don't feel that someone that draws a tag should go to the back of the line and those that have waited the longest have a little better chance to draw?

It is obvious to everyone that Wyo's current pref pt system for sheep and moose is a total failure! I believe that is the main reason most Wyo residents are apposed to any type of pref/bonus pt system. Not all pref/bonus pt systems are a failure. If you take a look at NV's draw system it awards applicants that have applied the longest a little better draw odds and those that have drawn tags or just starting out less chance of drawing. Every applicant in any given year has a chance to draw tags. If I was a Wyo resident I would certainly start researching success and failures of different draw systems because Wyo limited tags are going to be tougher and tougher to draw as Wyo's populuation continues to grow!

I am actually glad I am now a Wyo nonres because I am pretty much guaranteed EXCELLENT antelope, deer, and elk tags every few years with the Wyo nonres pref pt system. I have actually drawn a lot more tags the past few years than I ever did when I lived in Wyo.

I now live in Colo where we offer 40% of most limited antelope, deer, and elk tags to nonres. Colo also offers unlimited elk tags to nonres in the majority of elk units! I would be glad to see Wyo recipricate 40% of limited tags to me and also the opportunity for me to hunt unlimited elk every year in Wyo's general deer and elk units! Now that I moved from Wyo I also must hire or be accompanied by a guide to hunt the same wilderness I used to hunt every year as a kid growing up...not to terribly fair to Wyo nonres is it?
 
>One antelope tag in 16+ years?
>
>
>I still like my random odds
>better.

The current random system sucks. And I'd like to know how you figure one tag in 16 years. I've drawn several good second choice antelope tags in recent years including this year. Seems like the guys who whine about having preference pt system are the ones complaining about a pure pts system like Colorado. Just as jims noted, there are some crap systems out there and their are some good ones. I'd like to see them them take Wyoming's sheep and moose system and make 40% of the tags go random draw and the balance pref point. Then no one would be able to pizz & moan you'll never draw, or its unfair to kids, blah, blah. You could also do the same with a deer, elk and antelope pref pt system where some percentage of tags still went random. Personally I'd like to see a 2 or 3 year waiting period. If you draw, the only thing you get for the next several years is a general or second or third choice tag. That way the kiddies can still go kill something. If it improves the odds even a little bit, its better than what we have now and is long overdue...
 
Buzz seems to have a one track mind, he doesn't understand anything but extremes, to him its either a random draw or a total preference point system where only the top point holders ever draw.
Actually there are many options, one more number in the hat is one and that helps the unlucky, one more number in the hat and then squared, Nevada does that, one more number in the hat and 50% of tags going to the top, Utah does that, one more in the hat and 20% going to the top, Arizona does that, Just the top point holders drawn, Colorado does that for deer and antelope, and it works well for most units.

I agree that Wyomings point system is the worst, yet their resident random draw is just as unfair.

Like I said before, these other states have been dealing with more people and less tags far longer than Wyoming has and most have come up with different ways of making sure a larger number of people draw limited tags, because its well known that in a pure random draw more people draw multiple times and fewer people ever get to draw a tag.
 
Triple_BB,

You need to do more "figuring"...with 1858 people in the max point pool for antelope, they wont be applying for unit 42 with those points.

They'll be applying for units like 60, 61, 57, 58...and its already been 7 years since the beginning of the NR point system.

Its a sure bet that there will be people holding out for those units that wont draw tags for 7-10 more years. Do the math. Look at the number of NR tags issued in those units VS the number of people with max points.

Its damned likely that there will be a few of the unluckiest with 14-15-16 antelope points and still no tag even though they've faithfully applied for all those years. Its going to happen with deer and elk as well.

You also bring up another "great" thing about point systems. When people suddenly realize that the point systems they cried about getting...arent working, the first thing they do is change them. Thats even more unfair to the people who have applied faithfully under the original point system. You apply for 17 years for sheep under the 75-25 split and suddenly the split is 60-40 to make it "fair" to those without max points.

Thats your idea of leveling the playing field? Thats a fuggin' joke as those with max points have been set back another 5-15 years.

The ONLY, and I mean ONLY thing more unfair than a point system to start with, is changing one.

Finally, if anyone honestly believe that WYG&F is going to make a resident preference system any different than the Moose and Sheep system and the NR elk, deer, antelope system...they better wake up and smell the coffee. The only system that will ever happen is the exact same as whats currently being utilized...and you can take that to the fuggin' bank.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-12 AT 10:21PM (MST)[p]What's great about Wyo is the turn over rate of applicants is quick...especially for antelope and deer. With the nonres pref pt system the process is even quicker because the largest chunk of tags goes to applicants with highest pts and those that draw tags go to the end of the line. Every nonres still has the chance to draw tags in the random draw.

BuzzH,,lets look at the Wyo res antelope draw in detail! Currently 75% of all units have greater than 50% draw odds. Only roughly 10% of WYo antelope units have less than 25% draw odds for Wyo res. There actually aren't any Wyo res antelope units that have under 10% draw odds! Turnover rates for Wyo res would be even quicker than for nonres applying with the current pref pt/random draw system. BuzzH...take a look at the Wyo nonres antelope draw odds....your odds as a res would be much better with the same system....and you would be guaranteed tags in great units in only a year or 2!

Unfortunately even with those incredible draw odds there is no guarantee Wyo res will ever draw an antelope tag with the present system unless they apply for a unit with 100% odds. It may take a lifetime for a Wyo res to draw a unit with 25% draw odds while his neighbor may draw 3 tags in 3 years with the current system. If you believe this is fair...great...but if you believe those that draw tags should go to the end of the line and have less chance of drawing....the system probably should be changed. As pointed out in the posts above there are a number of draw systems that work well and give everyone a chance to draw in any given year.

Montana just changed to a draw system similar to NV this year so...yes it is possible the WG&F could change to any system they believe works. I have a feeling the WG&F is currently researching draw systems to replace the present moose and sheep systems...they are a joke! I actually have no problem with change...and believe it or not BuzzH change can be good!

If I was a Wyo res I would be doing everything in my power to change the current res draw system! The present moose and sheep system is a joke and the resident deer, antelope, and elk system could be improved.

Believe it or not BuzzH there are draw systems out there where everyone that applies has a chance to draw tags similar to 57, 60, and 61 with pretty darn good draw odds for those that have applied more years and everyone that applies still have a chance to draw the same tag!
 
Buzz, if you have a points system that isn't working as you reference, I guess you'd need to go ask the 1000 people at the top or the 10,000 at the bottom what's unfair. Maybe you didn't live here the last time the G&F changed the pref point system for moose and sheep, but I don't recall seeing a long line of people crying it was unfair.

Also, yer arguments about antelope 61, 60, etc. are complete BS. The resident draw odds in many high quality goat units aren't that low to begin with. Depending on what pp system was used, they could implement a system like jims noted that does nothing more than improve draw odds which is contrary to the pure points system you seem to have ingrained in yer skull.

I don't want a pure preference points sytem and I don't need a system that guarantees a tag. For elk, deer and antelope, I want improved odds like the waiting period I described above. Please, in yer pessimistic manner tell us how a waiting period is unfair, keeps the young from hunting, won't work, won't improve odds in elk area 100 or whatever bullchit you can think to argue...
 
Wyoming is a great state and a hunters paradise. I wish I lived there, if I did I would not be complaining. I also would not try for insanely hard to draw hunts. Units like 102, 128, etc are nearly impossible to draw and its not like there is a 200 or even 180 buck behind every bush.

I ran into an old man years ago while hunting unit 53 in Colorado. He told me he wished he hunted more while he still had his health. That has always stuck with me. We used to hunt unit 53 every couple of years but now that its all the rage with the magazines it takes years to draw. I still go to Colorado nearly every year and I still enjoy every minute of it, I just do it in another unit.

Enjoy living in Wyoming, get out there and hunt, there are those that would love to be in your positions.
 
I Want the EXACT OPPOSITE of you. I want every State to be more generous with Non-Resident Tags. I think every State including my home State should be like Wyoming and give out about 20% of their tags to Non-Residents. If States keep reducing the number of Non-Resident Tags to almost nothing they are going to run out of money and I am never going to get to hunt.
 
They aren't going to run out of money. Everyone will continue putting in and the state will continue to receive millions of dollars from preference points alone.

I was just looking at the amount of hunters with preference points and it amazes me how much money is being dumped into the state for prefernce points alone. Then you add all of the successful hunters and those fees and you've got a decent amount of money to fund F&G.

I know it's off topic, but it was a reply to the last post. States run their systems based off of money. I'm pretty sure they are not going to change anything unless the cost or benefit will be extreme.
 
America voted for "Change" in 2008. How's that workin out for us?

Wyoming is the best western state for the avid big-game hunter - BAR NONE. One of the main reasons I live here!

I for one won't vote for any 'change' to our drawing system............. History has proven over and over that it won't be better than what we currently have (even if our current system is flawed).

- Cade
www.HuntForeverWest.com
 
I also like the way it is here for residence. As for not making enough money without NR applying, didn't New Mexico take tags away from NR? Doesn't seem like they are hurting when it comes to money. I wonder how many from New Mexico have posted about not changing WY??
 
IMO the way NM can get away with what they did is because they have so many short 5 day seasons and that allows them to run a lot of NRs through their system compared to the way the seasons are structured in Wyoming. I don't believe they take in much money from antelope either compared to Wyoming, but they have transferrable landowner tags, etc., so it's hard to compare their system to Wyoming. I do agree with you that Wyoming is number one for residents and NRs.
 
New Mexico hasn't felt the affects yet!

Not to worry though, watch out next year. They will recoup the missing funds, wait and see.
 

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