Residents in Outfitter Pool

Zim

Zim

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 12:26PM (MST)[p]Well there are a lot of changes, and this is one of the biggest question marks for me, if I understand it right.

Prior to this year, the outfitter pool was for NR only, correct? If that is the case, what do you think will happen to the outfitter pool draw odds this year? I am thinking a ton of resident friends & family will jump in this pool by simply arranging a fake contract. However, every time they do that they may be cutting out a potential fat cat client. So how do you think this will play out? Maybe their clients who don't draw just fork out more $$$ for landowner tags so they even make more??? I have no clue myself as I am not in that income league.

Sorry if this question has come up previously. I bet it has, but I couldn't find a thread with it.
 
New regulations for outfitters, so they have to show income for anyone that draws a tag, which means taxes charged, ect. If faked could loose license.






Outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 12:30PM (MST)[p]So what's to prevent them from signing a $10 contract? I see no limits for that in the regulations.
 
I can apply thru an Outfitter for $0.00 There is no requirement to charge a fee.

Zim, the odds would need to be beneficial for a resident to be drawn to the Outfitter pool tags. In addition, the hunter needs to spend two periods of time, each on separate days, with the Outfitter or his licensed guide. The logistics will prevent "robo signing" of contracts, which need to be signed before applying.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 01:14PM (MST)[p]The draw odds for my archery elk hunt last year were significantly higher in the OF pool (100%) than the regular R pool (24%). Don't know how anyone could possibly enforce the 2 day thing. How is NMG&F going to prove there was no meeting at any time on any particular day? In the event of a dispute, it would be their responsibility to prove such a claim. Do they have the time and money to pursue that? Also, if they are family, many would live at the bottom of the same mountain so meeting the 1st and last days would be nothing anyway.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 01:37PM (MST)[p]Zim...
http://www.nmcpr.state.nm.us/nmac/parts/title19/19.030.0008.htm



19.30.8.9 GENERAL OUTFITTER REGISTRATION REQUIREMENTS:

B. New Mexico outfitter qualifications for special draw hunts:

(4) Hunter-client contract: A New Mexico outfitter shall execute a signed contract with each special draw applicant prior to the applicant applying for any special drawing pool licenses.

(c) A New Mexico outfitter shall ensure that the hunter-client is accompanied by the outfitter or their registered guide for at least two days in the area where the hunter-client's license is valid. There is no specific time requirement per day, but shall be specified per the outfitter?s contract with the hunter-client. Failure for an outfitter to specify this allotted time requirement in their contract with a hunter-client shall be considered misconduct.
.

J-
www.#####.com
 
Speaking from a nonresident perspective i think the outfitter pool will be flooded by nonresidents. At 6% for NR pool we have virtually no chance of drawing in the quality units. All of this means more business for outfitters.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]

Outfitters won't be providing "minimal" services for a few hundred dollars as some did in the past; the cost to apply for the minimum will be closer to 1K. Nor will any outfitter that actually generates income, risk losing his license by not complying with the two day clause.
Time will tell but I don't see much of an increase in guided applicants. No more NR outfitters either. Just to remain, or to become an outfitter, you need to have been a tax paying resident for three years prior.
In reality, how many Outfitters provided a "minimal" drop camp/orientation style service? I know of three and I looked pretty hard a few years ago. I just don't see it being a big problem. With the 2 day requirement it's no different than a std drop camp hunt we have all across the West, with the client providing their own camp.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-11 AT 02:09PM (MST)[p]>Speaking from a nonresident perspective i
>think the outfitter pool will
>be flooded by nonresidents. At
>6% for NR pool we
>have virtually no chance of
>drawing in the quality units.
>All of this means more
>business for outfitters.


I don't think there will be more business for outfitters. Most of the outfitter pool hunts were filled and they just went from 12% to 10%. And you are guaranteed the 10% number will get knocked down by any residents that apply in that pool. There were zero last year so it can't go lower. And there's no way to enforce the 2 day thing, regardless of what some believe.

Folks are always going to be looking for a way to work the system.......always......to get the best draw odds for the lowest price. Whatever can be done they will do it. It's rampant in my state to the point I had to meet with the site manager where I hunt, and call my legislator to try and get abused loopholes sealed.

So the only wild cards I see left for the outfitters to increase their business is the LO tags. I do see a slight increase in drop camp services because those would legitimately qualify for the 2 day thing.
 
This goes to show the strength and pull that the Resident Outfitters have..

1) If you look at the numbers, the number of tag subsidies for Residents Outfitters actually went up. Sure the % went down in 196 BUT because they removed the NR Outfitters the R Outfitters actually ended up gaining tags...

2) You guys are right... No longer are people going to be able to sell a Outfitter Number for $400 and not provide a service...

3) Also, you will need to go with the outfitter whose number you used to draw the tag. This wasn't the case in the past. I guess outfitters were undercutting each other after the tag was drawn.


Jason
www.#####.com
 
There are a LOT of units where the guided pool has historically had significantly higher drawing odds than the resident pool. Not the premium units, but some of the average ones. There were a lot of units where there were leftover tags in the guided pool.

I have heard some rumblings of folks signing contracts for pretty low dollar amounts and working out the meeting arrangements to be 15 minute meet and greet type deals simply to comply with the requirements. Not sure if they are just rumblings or if anyone is actually getting setup to get those done.
 
How can they get away with eliminating nonresident outfitters? It would seem that would be ripe for a court case!
 
I know it isn't all the residents fault and planning but if some of the other states treated NM residents the way NM treats non residents they might get some pressure to at least be fair.I agree with states managing their wildlife and residents getting the most bang for the buck but there are still fair reasonable ways to issue permits.
 
This outfitter pool setup is ripe for abuse. There is a reason no other state has rules like those that will be in place this year in New Mexico. I hope NM publishes how this 10% outfitter pool gets distributed.
 
^And what exactly is the 'reason' Zimlander?

The Res/NR distribution will be published indirectly in the 2013 Draw Odds Report

Interesting that you would feel so inclined as to post this transparently rhetorical thread, as I believe YOU yourself are quite guilty of abusing the 'System' to your advantage over the past few years? Once again, what was the name of the OUTFITTER(s) you utilized to exploit your advantage?

BTW, congrats on your fine Jicarita archery bull...and how did the other Chief do?
 
It is what it is..... I bet the residents trying to abuse the system is in the noise. Undguided nonresidents lost 40% of their tags (6% vs 10%), but I bet less apply with the higher fees for fewer tags... Resident odds will improve slightly, and NNGFD will lose a lot of revenue...higer fees fore lower odds... Oh well....Wait and see...
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-11 AT 08:52AM (MST)[p]greatwestern,

Haven't you been banned here yet Loser? Really?

Last year I applied 100% legally and complied 100% with all the rules set up by the NMF&G welfare system. I did not pay $10 for a bogus outfitter contract. I abused absolutely nothing. Period. If you have a beef with NMF&G why don't you run over to their office with your pigtails flying in the breeze and whine over there? I had no part in creating the rules.

The jackwagon NR's that come to my state submit multiple applications and hunt with their non-hunting buddy's site permits, totally illegally. One hunted two hunt periods this year, totally illegally. Another was poaching. I called a CO, set up a sting, and he just plead guilty to 15 counts.

FYI - I backpaked SOLO 4 miles up into the Pecos, with 80% snow cover up near 13,000'. Heavy rains the first 4 days kept all the competition home. The 5th day was my first real chance to hunt. I stalked and arrowed a herd bull at 8 AM, all 100% legally. Just had him scored for P&Y 330 3/8 gross, 320 3/8 net. What size bull did you shoot this year? Oh ya..........you didn't. Because you were too busy sitting home with your pink thong in a bundle harassing other MM's on your laptop.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID34/3718.html

Really sorry if my humble abode cramped your fat cat camp.
 
My guess is that of the 10% of tags that are in the Outfitter pool, 4% go to "guided" residents. Time will tell, it could only be 1%. This could be a big issue for sure and it will make some outfitters pretty unhappy when they are losing business because some other outfitter is allowing residents to apply with a small dollar contract.
 
Ah yes, you're just as classy as ever Zimmerman...

Regarding your SOLO hunt on an outfitter tag...from page 16 of this year's Big Game Proclamation:

"Nonresidents who receive a license by using an OUTFITTER's number, are REQUIRED to hunt with a registered outfitter for the DURATION of their hunt. Nonresidents who received one of these licenses and hunt on their own, may be prosecuted for hunting without a valid license..."


Hmmm...now, I'll leave you with a quote, as I need to go braid my pigtails:

"Ya, especially given the new NM rules the only real way to hunt NM is work the loopholes. Any serious NR should do the same." ---Zim
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-11 AT 08:11PM (MST)[p]GreatLoser,

If my agreement was illegal in any way, shape or form why don't you unbundle your pink thong, strap'er up and head down to NMF&G and turn me in???

Please tell us all??? We are waiting...........tick tock tick tock tick tock.

Since you didn't respond to my first post I'll repeat I did not make the rules in New Mexico. I am not an attorney. I don't know their interpretation of the rules. I do know my guide met with NMF&G representatives and got approval. Soo like I said if you have a problem, quit whining on a website and call the NMG&F immediately. I will cooperate 100% in their investigation.

There's really no need to be jealous just because you didn't score a bull. Mine is only 330". You'll get one some day.
 
NM hunters are just suckers. They allow a private business to steal 12% of their tags for years and another private business to get land tags then they allow the same private concerns to fool them into thinking they are going to all get tags if they pass a bill that reduces the DIY tags by 40% or 4% of the total tags. Just forces DIY hunters to hire the outfitter, buy LO tags or quit hunting the state. I hope the people of NM organize and march on the capitol to eliminate LO tags and outfitter set asides. Game animals should never be bought and sold like cattle for profit. Look at your neighbor for a good example of how that ends up.
 
My thoughts exactly gleninaz. Its politics and politics means money for someone. And who has the money and power to lobby for this kind of change? Im just saying there is no way anyone can buy into the smoke screen that this was done to benefit the residents. I agree if we nonresidents want to hunt NM we have to hire an outfitter or buy a landowner tag either way they have virtually eliminated the DIY NR hunter. I can see how this is not a big concern for residents but i think time will tell that residents didnt gain much.
THE 2% THAT THE OUTFITTER POOL LOST MEANS NOTHING TO THEM. WHEN THE SMOKE SETTLES EVERYONE WILL SEE THAT LANDOWNERS AND OUTFITTERS GAINED $$$$$$$$ not tags.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-11 AT 12:19PM (MST)[p]Opening this thread is kinda like Christmas morning.

Speaking of that, all you guys have a nice Christmas this weekend. Oh, and you too Elkman.
 
Indeed, indeed, Jolly Good Cheer all around!

I appreciate the thought Zimmer, although its pretty chinsey of ya not to send over a hard copy of such an invaluable text resource for my benefit, preferably signed by you, the Serpent Lake Backdoor Chief himself

I must also thank you for your full and willing cooporation in very clearly illustrating for everyone here my case in point...remarkably well done!

Ignorantia juris non excusat, nevermind premeditated outright contempt

Anyway, cheers fella, and a Happy New Year to ya
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-11 AT 02:20PM (MST)[p]Uhhhhh........Just so you know I kinda substitute location specifics were I go so as to deflect company.

But click to look inside!
 
^Righto

Never heard ya give a location, however, your photos are a dead give away

Go ahead and have at gettin in the last word, my work is done here

Till next time, Cheers Zim!
 
Dead giveaway??? Looks the same as any of the high country up there. You're as bad at guessing locations as you are at elk hunting, because that's nowhere near Serpent Lake.
 
Gentlemen,

Two things are now certain and the first is that the current outfitter pool allocation is seriously flawed. However, and before anymore blame is thrown on New Mexico resident hunters, take into consideration that a very strong outfitter lobby backed 196. My point prior to passage and now is that no one with any significant economic data or influence truly challenged their lobby and the bill was passed. Essentially, a very vocal minority took control over a matter that effects the majority of hunters in New Mexico. We knew that the number of tags actually available to NM residents would be nominal but there has been a general sentiment growing among New Mexico hunters that our state was VERY liberal with out of state tag numbers. Let's be honest, one of the main reasons my family and best buddies (all of whom are nonresidents) love hunting in New Mexico is the comparative ease with which they have been able draw quality tag (they drew 10 tags this year and killed a pile of animals). In no other Western state can they draw as many quality tags as frequently as they can in New Mexico, period. This is further evidenced by many of the hunting periodicals preaching the apply, apply, apply philosophy. New Mexico is touted time and again as a great place for the nonresident hunter to get drawn for that once-in-a-lifetime tag. Unfortunately this will only be true for those who can afford to do so through an outfitter...

If things take a significant hit because of 196 you can bet all your hard-earned application fee money that New Mexico will do something to rectify it. At this point it's just going to take a significant movement on the part of nonresident hunters. Only then will your average joe New Mexico hunters and your vocal outfitter lobby come running and asking for change.

The second certainty is that from a legal standpoint, it is now going to be a BAD idea for any nonresident hunter to apply for a tag using an outfitter's number and NOT actually hunt with the outfitter. This particular aspect of the system has been abused by many individuals for a long time and I believe we just might see a few folks finally get busted...

One way to defeat the new system would be for a large-scale ban by nonresident hunters on New Mexico hunting. I.e., not putting in for tags and subsidizing our wonderful G&F Department, our outfitters, or any other local vendor you would patronize. However, the reward for the nonresident who chooses not to participate in such a ban is the benefit of high draw odds and top hunts. So, the benefits of cheating any boycott will likely cause it to fail.

Happy holidays to all and good luck in the tag lottery this spring. It will be interesting to see what happens!

-Cody


www.streamflies.com
 
A swing would of took a hole lot less energy than typing. Sorry guys I just can't get into the internet boxing.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
 
gw, Serpent Lake is granola cruncher central. Maybe OK for setting up a Powerade stand but not for my kind of elk hunting.
 
Thanks Cody for injecting some (not-so-common) sense into this thread. I did not support and do not defend 196 in anyway, but as someone who has lived and hunted both sides of the NM State line, I find NRs complaining about how NM is treating them to be somewhat ironic. Relatively speaking, NRs have had it pretty good here, but it's often our human nature to not appreciate what we've had until it's taken away.

But misery loves company, so take heart NRs. Based on our in-fighting, anti's, drought, mismanagement, re-intro of wolves, poaching, etc, it appears to me that resident DIYs will soon be relegated to nothing more than us telling our grand kids how hunting used to be. But hey, there will always be guided high-fence...

Merry Christmas to all--unless you're planning to compete with me for the BH and ibex OILs. Then bah-humbug to you... ;-)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-12 AT 01:06PM (MST)[p]Well, they posted the stats.

http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/recreation/hunting/documents/draw_odds/CompleteReport2012-13.xls

I misread them the first time, but now looks like the draw odds were exactly as I guessed for the OF pool in my preferred 3rd tier unit. They went from 50% in 2011 to 30% in 2012. So that is not abysmal. The DIY pool went as expected 10% to 7%. I may actually get to return to my fav spot someday if I opt for the OF pool drop camp.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 

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