"RICH GUYS"

M

MTQuivers

Active Member
Messages
588
I am hearing A lot of jealousy on here lately about how everyone is being screwed by the rich hunter!

I hate to tell you guys this....BUT in our country people with money tend to get a lot of things average folks don't! IT IS CALLED DEMOCRACY---NOT SOCIALISM--- Isn't it great we live in a country where hard work pays off. Where a guy can take risks in business and work for the AMERICAN DREAM!!! The Rich man also gets bigger houses, more cars, more women, season tickets on first row, better food at nicer restraunts, nicer clothes, better education, more recognition, access to private property, getaway cabins, expensive vactations, etc. The list goes on and on!!! Why don't we all just sit here and complain about HOW THE WORLD IS UNFAIR!!....OR....We can get off our butts and GO GET A PIECE OF THE PIE OURSELVES! And in the mean time be grateful for succesfull people that provide jobs and opportunity for everyone. In this scenerio they have provided LOTS of money for our wildlife and we are COMPLAINING??????

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
 
I could not have said it any better. I have been poor, dirt freaking poor. I was a lowly concrete worker at 23 years old with nothing going for me.

I paid for my college education (and my wifes). I worked grave yard shifts at a factory for 5 years to do it. It sucked big time, but I did it and know I am a school teacher and a business owner. I would not consider myself rich by any means, but I will never bash someone who is, because I love that someone has found success and can spend their money on things they value and love. Don't you just love capitalism!!?

2Pointer
www.jglowblinds.com
 
Jason, I understand your point and tend to agree with most of it..but hunting in the past was a priveledge that any american could afford to do. The trend is going more and more to hunting being a "rich mans sport" That is what has happened in europe and the comman man has no chance. I am spending a much higher percentage of my income to enjoy decent hunting and seeing less opportunity and less quality than ever before. If the trend continues numbers of hunters will drop and when that happens anti hunters will have the upper hand...just something to consider.
 
This post will get Western before it dies!

Like I always say, either marry rich or hold out in school for that Doctorate degree.......otherwise, it is what it is and you can't whine!
 
Now we are talking.

So, do we all agree every tag should be put up for auction since otherwise some sort of damn socialism is creeping into hunting? Hip hip horray. Golden rule my way, baby!!

No more pesky Average Joe's or silly kids out there getting in my way with their asinine "meat in the freezer" or "like to hunt once more with grandpa" attitudes.

Finally, we can agree that shooting anything less than a 400 elk or 200 deer is just screwing up my chance to have my set of guides and spotters and the gun bearer from doing their job for me.

For a minute I thought some of you were seriously going to support a fair shake at tags by just anyone. Jeez.
 
Hunting is not for the rich guys.
Trophy hunting? Yeah maybe.
Plenty of cheap tags for average animals.
 
I agree I know a lot of very successful people that started with nothing. They sacrificed and held their nose to the grindstone to get ahead looking at the long term goal and not the short term. I am not speaking for all auction tag buyers but there are a lot of wealthy "Avg Joes" out there! When I win the lotto I will buy Gov. tags and auction tags every year:)LMAO
 
Good points guys. I am not in favor of the "rich guy" taking over hunting. But if a guy with some $$$$ can buy a good tag, then it is no one elses business. I can not afford a high dollar tag, but I hope to one day. Until then I will keep hunting with my dad, brothers and buddies for the best bucks we can find. But, when the day comes I can afford to buy a great tag, I can guarantee you that I will not be listening to the folks bashing me for spending "to much $$$" on hunting.

Life is about choices. I would love to golf more in the summer, but I choose not to so I can save money for hunting. I would love a new truck, but I am saving my money for hunting trips. I would love to take my wife to Hawaii, but I am saving my money for hunting trips. We all make our choices on what to spend our time and money on/with. Why should others have to "justify" to a stranger how much they spent on a tag/hunt? What are your priorities? If they are not the same as mine that does not make mine wrong.

2Pointer
www.jglowblinds.com
 
I don't understand why every one complains so much about the price of a tag... We are all just jealous that we can't afford to drop $25 grand on a Dutton premium tag... In the mean time, I will hunt my ass off in a general unit for a real trophy, and if and when i ever get the chance to draw a legit tag, well by all means i am going to make it worth while...

The average hunter on here complaining about the price of tags probably doesn't get off his quad to hike but 200 yards off a road to shoot something...

Last year we had 4 or 5 190+ deer scouted on GENERAL UNITS, they weren't easy to find and we hiked our asses off, probably put in a good 8 miles of hiking every time we went out...

I believe a true hardcore hunter will find a way to make everywhere he hunt a trophy potential.
----------------------------------------
Hoyt Katera XL
Spot Hogg Seven Deadly Pin
Fuse Acculaunch
Fuse Satori
G5 Matreo Strings
"I don't miss, I just don't hit him on purpose"
 
We do NOT, let me repeat NOT, live in a democracy! So, this entire thread is based on an incorrect premise.

I am also not against the "rich guys", I am however against managing the entire herd around them and what they want/demand. I am 100% in favor of capitalism, but what we have being called game management in Utah is nowhere near capitalism, so lets stop pretended that it is. Capitalism is not based on rationing to drive up demand or price, it is about giving the customers want, and the companies that give more options at reasonable prices succeed. What we have now is a few getting what they want, and the rest, thanks to a monopoly, have no where to go to get what they want. Yet, those pretending to be capitalists/conservatives have the arrogance to call those left out in the street as "whiners", "crybabies", and "haters". Get off you high horses and practice what you preach. If you are for "democratic" policies, then lets put it to a vote by EVERY hunter in Utah and EVERY hunter out of Utah that has every hunted/applied for a permit in Utah.
 
It all works great until greed is introduced into the equation. In hunting, it means that rich not only get the good tags, but start wanting/buying the average tags also. The average hunter is forced out of the "average" market and starts buying the "poor" tags, thus pricing the poor hunter out of the market all together. Soon, more greed steps in and the rich buy the poor tags that he average hunter was buying, thus pricing the average hunter out of the market.
Basically there are rules in capitalism that must be followed in order for it to be the great system is. We know that is not always the case. That seems to be what is happening to hunting if we are not careful. There should be room for everyone

30-30
 
Jason, Jason, Jason there is nothing I can say that
will change your train of thought. Nothing. I have no issue with those that have marketable talent being compensated
for their skills.

What you don't realize is that we are taking a PUBLIC RESOURCE and treating it like a PRIVATE BUSINESS...

These Conservation Groups DON'T OWN THE ITEMS THEY ARE MARKETING!! Utahn's do and this Utahn has had enough.

How about I come over to your house, pull the food out of your fridge and start selling it to my bow shooting buddies?
Would you be pissed?? Don't worry you can trust me to pay
you back for what I sold TRUST ME... The case of BUD in the fridge went for a dime. I got a nickel for the side of beef in the freezer. Would you take my word on this deal Jason??

It's the exact same thing.
















*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-10 AT 01:27PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-10 AT 01:24?PM (MST)

This Jason Yates fellow needs to take a reality check. Hunting was never meant to be a rich man's sport. It's a pass time that all people can enjoy.

Jason Yates seems to be one of the brainwashed SFW sheep followers. I think his post spells out exactly how SFW feels about the average joe hunters.

I would encourage hunters to discontinue their membership with SFW. It would be foolish to support such a group that only cares about the rich people.
 
This thread misses the point of my primary concern. I could care less if someone is wealthy and chooses to spend a significant amount of money on hunting. Good for them. I would probably do the same if I was in there shoes. Frankly, my wife already thinks I spend a fortune on hunting.

My concern is that we have taken hundreds of tags out of the pubic draw and put them up for sale in the name of wildlife conservation. Is it too much to ask that the money generated from the sale of such tags actually go toward wildlife conservation? Is it too much to ask for those responsible to provide an accounting? Is it possible that we could generate the same amount of money with less tags? Is it possible that we could put the same amount of money on the ground with less tags? I personally believe that questions such as these are healthy and they deserve thoughtful answers.

For example, the State of Utah and the DWR has set aside 200 convention permits each year for the Western Hunting & CONSERVATION Expo. Why isn't there a requirement that the funds generated from the sale of those tags actually go toward wildlife conservation? When the average sportsman goes to the Expo and applies for the 200 tags he knows that his chances are drawing are slim, but he believes that he is donating to wildlife conservation even if he does not draw a tag. Should that money be used to pay salaries, bonuses, consulting fees, etc. for the sponsoring organization? I personally do not think that is right. Some people may diasgree with me. So be it.

Remember, we are talking about significant sums of money. If 1,000 people put in for each tag, that is $1 million (1,000 x 200 x $5). If 2,000 people put in for each tag, that is $2 million. If that state is going to set aside 200 tags for a wildlife conservation expo than why not require that the funds generated from those tags actually be used for conservation? After all, the state imposes similar requirements on the hundreds of convention tags issued each year. The tags set aside as conservation and convention permits are a public resource and the money generated therefrom should be used carefully and wisely, and then accounted for.

Returning to MTQuivers original statement, if the goal is to raise "LOTS of money for our wildlife," then let's at least make sure that the money is actually going toward wildlife.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
There sure seems to be alot of 'Brown Tongue' type guys all of a sudden?

Maybe lickin them 'roids has gotten them something in return?

Robb

'SFW turns fellow hunters against fellow hunters'
 
I am all for someone earning everything they can and as a business owner I have enjoyed trips all over the world and some nice things. That said I am dead against using a public resource to allow some podunk bow shop or outfitter to make a few extra dollars using publicly owned animals. You can buy just about anything you can afford in America but you can't take your quad across the public wilderness and you should not be able to buy private tags for public animals. Fact is that our country has changed and very few people own most of the wealth with a shrinking middle class and a growing low income class. Go buy the best hookers at the Ritz Carlton but stay away from buying tags for big game. Keep it open so people of all means can afford to take their families hunting in the future.
 
It's great that people can work hard and obtain THINGS and experiences.

It's wrong (and will end hunting as we know it) when someone LEGISLATES things so that money can more easily obtain experiences (hunting opportunities) than a man who has to pay a mortgage and raise kids.

One or two tags per state to raise money (when sold by the state so the money goes directly to the cause) for wildlife may be OK....lots of tags to ANY organization or cause will be the death of hunting.

If the "rich guys" had much sense, they could read the handwriting....there are a great many miseducated and misguided individuals who are down on hunting and down on gun ownership. Reducing the ranks of the people who are avid hunters (by reducing their opportunity) will not help ANYone be able to hunt (or own firearms) into the future.

Here in Idaho, non-hunters outnumber hunters by more than 5 to 1 (certainly moreso in other places). We need to get more AVERAGE people involved (and their kids), because there are more average people than rich guys.

Do you guys remember the first night of Hunter Education.....we are instructed to make a big deal about hunting being a special privilege...NOT any type of right.

Our parents' generation would have thought one was crazy to think that way.


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
I'm just wondering how much of the money I send to the DWR in Utah actually goes "on the ground" to deer and habitat?

Is there anyone who knows the percentages concerning this?

I'm not wanting to bash, I'm just curious.

DeerBeDead
 
Hey fellas I am not rich and this may suprise some of you I am not even a member of SFW and I do not know Don Peay from Adam. I have not ever bought any kind of auction/landowner tag in my life. I hunt over-the-counter general season unless I am lucky enough to draw. I am about 95% archery in my hunts because I LOVE THE CHALLENGE OF HUNTING! I ALSO LOVE TO HUNT PUBLIC LAND! I am not saying I buy tags I just get tired of people whining about "HOW LIFES NOT FAIR! You guys complain about them "STEALING" or selling our public resources at the expo? Those tags go right back to the general public! As far as the auction tags um let's see here should we go back to have 1000 tags to split among the entire state for Limited entry hunts?????? That's what we had before these groups started??? Now we have 5000!!!!! THESE GROUPS HAVE TAKEN OUR PUBLIC RESOURCES AND DOUBLED THEM AND THEN TRIPLED THEM AND QUADROUPLED THEM AND THEN THEY DID WHATEVER THE WORD IS FOR 5X THEM!!! WHAT NERVE THEY HAVE!!! WHAT JERKS TO DO THAT TO OUR WILDLIFE!!!!

AS FAR AS THE ANALOGY ABOUT SELLING FOOD OUT OF MY FRIDGE:::: IF YOU COME TAKE MY FOOD SELL IT TO YOUR BUDDIES AND BRING BACK 5 TIMES AS MUCH FOOD IN RETURN I WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO GIVE YOU 5-10% OF IT TO TAKE HOME!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
ONE MORE THING- I See opportunity ALL around me in this state! If you hike and hunt hard there are plenty of BIG BUCKS and BULLS to be had on Public Land on general over the counter tags. And if you hate Utah go hunt other states. Not everyone can be rich but everyone can work hard enough to buy an out of state tag or two. I went up to Idaho on a general season over the counter hunt this year and saw several nice 4 point deer. I ended up with a 179" 4 by 5 and my buddy shot a nice 4 point as well. This was just a few hours away on a general tag. I see very similar opportunity here if you are committed.
THAT BEING SAID: It could get better if we all work together and quit whining. If you don't like how things are do something about it. I am an advocate of archery as a management tool. I also think that if we were to manage deer in smaller units like Colorado things would improve...BUT I am not GOING TO COMPLAIN BECAUSE I THINK WE HAVE IT PRETTY GOOD!!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
All of those things that the rich benefit from that you mentioned in your post, are not things being sold by the govt. (Well, I guess the govt does own GM now, so I guess they do sell cars.) Your comment rich people getting more girls made me wonder. . .

Lets say women were a public resource, owned by the people, managed by the government. To get a real hot one, you could enter a draw or you could buy one from an organization. . . kind of like a pimp. Well, the rich guys keep buying all the hot ones, so there arent many left. Now the chances of you getting a prom queen are becoming less and less, because your government keeps selling them to the rich guy. Now you have to hope to get a chance, just a chance to get in there with all the other guys and try to snag a short fat one. And you might not even be able to get one of those.

So, are you still supportive of the rich guys?
 
I pray Montana, Wyoming, Colorado and Arizona each take 100s of tags out of their draws to hand to non-profit organizations before those states collapse into insignificance in Western hunting. How in the heck to those silly states manage without having the good fortune of taking 100s of tags out of the draw? They are nuts to be so negligent.
 
There are rich people left in America? Huh. Not if Obama gets his way and "distributes" it for 3 more years.

HK
 
This whole post is about Utah...correct? So how many tags are sold at auction and how many tags are sold via the draw?
 
It appears that somebody drank too much coffee today.

Limp-wristed pillow biters buy their trophies and pay others to hunt for them on exclusive leases, or near game-farm like hunting conditions - they support the "Texas-style" model of wildlife managment and hunting.
 
Jason, jason, jason. As others have said, you're missing the whole point. Wiley and hawk summed it up well. Is it ok for wealthy people to buy luxuries? Of course. That's the way capitalism works. Is it ok for a government to take a public resource and whore it out? Nope. This isn't about rich vs. poor. The tags belong to tax payers. They are then sold to make money. The money goes into private hands, without restrictions. See the difference?

Rich people supporting private enterprise: ok
Rich people buying a public resource at the detriment: not ok

Of course this is over simplified, but your original premise is faulty. And, as said, this isn't a democracy.
 
Jason, a lot of us are doing something about it, here and elsewhere. one does not need be a cheerleader bowing at the alter of Don in order to make a difference. What all this complaining is doing is validating many people's thoughts on the money tag issue. I tire of people saying I must join a group I disagree with or stay quiet. I won't join a political party and I won't join a special interest group just because some pinhead thinks I should.

What all this grumbling, here and on just about every hunting blog out there, should tell you/Don is that people are tired of being told to 'trust us', or how we should give them credit for every good thing that has happened to any wild animal in Utah but no blame for anything negative. SFW can't take all the credit and none of the blame, not and have a happy bunch of hunters. The new elk proposal caters to the rich/elite type hunters even more than the current plan, it ignores the survey conducted by the DWR, it received NO input from outside a select few special interest groups, it ignores biology, and it takes opportunity away when it is neither needed or wanted by the majority of Utah hunters.

Now, add in the PR blunder of a SFW Executive drawing a premiere sheep tag, not honoring promises about transparency (where else have I heard that one?) on draw odds from the expo and monies actually hitting the ground from money tags, and an incredibly arrogant attitude when people dare question the DON or his motives/actions, and you have a powder keg that is close to blowing.

SFW has no one to blame but themselves for the angst people are having more and more, they are the ones who have brought this onto themselves. Americans, and even more so hunters, are forgiven folks. Man up, admit to mistakes made, be more open/transparent, LISTEN to folks concerns and wishes, and people might just simmer down a bit. Stop telling us SFW is the only ones that can/will get things done, how great the DON is, how dumb the average hunter is, being less than open and honest with those who are asking legitimate questions, or be prepared for the tide to get bigger that at some point WILL come crashing down.
 
I am trying real hard not to laugh at this line of reasoning, if you truly believe in capitalism and a free market, then you believe in as small a government as possible which therefore our government should get out of the land ownership business because private businesses and people can do it better? Then yes we are headed to the privatization of hunting and a European model and you as a non rich guy will have no place to go hunt your butt off as you say.

There is middle ground in everything we need to have public resources if we all want to continue hunting, but we do also need wealthy people who donate and do a ton of good. We need organizations that care and represent the sportsman to lobby our issues and help steer the government in the direction we would like it steered. You are calling everyone whiners and telling them to get up and do something. I think there are quite a few people getting up and doing something trying to steer wildlife initiatives the way they feel best, just because you don't agree with everything SFW stands for does not make you a whiner. People have taken the initiative to set up this meeting and demand answers and accountability. That in my book is getting up and doing something if you don't like the way it is currently being done, and a person should be able to drive and influence game management however they see fit. I agree whole-heartedly SFW has done many great things, however I have personally been to meetings where things have been promised that have not been fulfilled and sent emails that have gone unanswered. So am I a whiner for continuing to ask what happened to those promises? You probably used the wrong word in what you were trying to say but a democracy is the will of the people our country is all about asking questions, we questioned the King of England and here we are today. If a person is Republican, just because they question something the party is doing or an individual within the party does not make them a democrat or a socialist but unfortunately some people think like that. Don't ever question lets keep it status quo. Let me ask you this if Don Peay never questioned (or whined as you say) our game management practices 20 years ago would elk and sheep quality be what it is today? Always keep questioning and improving its the what makes America great.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-10 AT 05:58PM (MST)[p]I can agree with you Hunt33. There are people that are doing something and to those people I applaud. I think that this meeting will be great to clear the air for some. I don't think Don could leave without answering some of the questions guys have without getting lynched so hopefully everyone will find it productive.
Jason, Jason, Jason, Does get it. I promise you that I understand your point of view and for the most part I agree with a lot that is said about this subject. I agree with a lot of you more than you think. I am just a regular guy that LOVES to hunt.
I JUST GET TIRED OF COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW LIFES NOT FAIR AND EVERYBODY GOT A TAG BUT ME AND IT'S ALL DON'S FAULT. YOU GUYS Have probably seen the Slogan that says "It's Bush's Fault"
I AM WAITING TO SEE A BUMPER STICKER FOR UTAH SPORTSMAN THAT SAYS "IT'S DON'S FAULT" Just like President Bush IT IS NOT ALL DON'S FAULT!
I don't know the laws for non-profit orgs or even if SFW is a non-profit- I have heard both ways. If it is mandatory by law that they open their books then THEY SHOULD OPEN THEIR BOOKS! I agree with that 100%! BUT....THIS POST WAS NOT ABOUT DON PEAY OR SFW! Everyone on here just lumps them into everything. The post was about people that need to realize that wealthy hunters are some of our most valuable conservationists and that "IF" the money from auctions is used to benefit our wildlife then we SHOULD THANK THEM FOR IT!!!! The wealthly will NEVER rule hunting in America ANYMORE than they will be the majority instead of the minority. There are only so many rich people and unless our wildlife conservation fails and we have limited animals THAT WILL NOT EVER HAPPEN! SO We just do a good job of conservation and that wont be an issue. RICH GUYS HAVE A PART IN MAKING SURE THAT HAPPENS!!!!! THAT'S ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
Rich guys have a part in the picture, but so do the average hunters! So do those who don't give a green light to ANY group that has a smooth talking PR guy. Accountability MUST be the number one responsibility for a group entrusted with having so much sway over game management decisions.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-10 AT 06:55PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-10 AT 06:39?PM (MST)

Jason, you claim that rich guy's are never rule hunting in Utah.

Seriously???

Let me absolutely guarantee you right now that herds are being managed to maximize profits on Conservation / Landowner tags.

I've probably got the meeting minutes to prove it.. If not I've got a dozen witnesses.

How about bonus points and waiting periods... If ya have enough money you are exempt from playing by the rules all the rest of us must play by.

Did you know that SFW ended the AR-301 elk hunt because bowhunters didn't use points or waiting periods for this hunt.

Do you understand that the DWR is just as complicit in this as
the Cons Orgs??

You seriously used the word socialist when defending SFW?? Who the hell do you think is subsidizing them through the sale of a public resource??









*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
NO I don't think rich guys "RULE" hunting opportunities in Utah. 99% of the tags go to the AVERAGE GUY! SO YOU DO THE MATH! I Think we are all part of the EQUATION to make this work! BUT even though the rich guys put up the most $$$ the average joe get's 99% of the tags!!!! I think IT IS A GREAT WORKING AGREEMENT for us Joe's!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
I would have to agree with PleaseDear and hoytme on this subject. Jason by all means keep on posting but remember one thing. lmao

It is better to let them think your a fool rather than opening your mouth and releasing all doubt.
 
I agree with you Jim: losing young hunters is a valid concern but I believe conservation groups have the "opportunity" to help us with that. For example: If we had a major wolf problem in Utah and we lost 50% or 75% of our herds, hunting opportunity would be very limited. Then the ONLY hunting opportunities would go the RICH and we would all be screwed. Or if deer herds are managed and cared for poorly we also lose opportunity and price goes up. The more supply we have the lower the costs! Low supply=more demand and higher costs. If the money (from wealthy hunters) is used properly then it can make a difference in both of these scenerios and actually DRIVE COSTS down. Just My Thoughts

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
OK I LOVED THE AR-301 tag! IF THEY ARE THE ONES THAT GOT RID OF IT I HATE THEM! I AM ON BOARD! SCREW SFW! I TAKE EVERYTHING I SAID BACK!!! WHERE IS DON? GET A ROPE!!!!
In all seriousness my post was not about SFW. I have never said they (or any other group) are a perfect organization (obviously if they got rid of the AR-301!!!) but they do a lot of good! The post was about WEALTHY HUNTERS having their place in our conservation efforts and that it is not their fault! Most of us would do the same thing they are doing if we could!
I REALLY DO SEE where you are coming from and maybe to some degree I like to play devil's advocate but I just think we are to quick to blame everything on rich guys that "steal" our hunting.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
Thats funny Chit right there!!!





*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
I think there is a HUGE place for the rich "capitalistic" hunters in America. It's called a high fence ranch in Texas.

If a rich man wants to donate money for wildlife in Utah, that's great. He should not be able to kill the peoples wildlife as a condition for doing so, IMO.

Eel

Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
 
long as i can afford to have my dogs, dirtbike and guns I'LL always be a happy camper lol







............YY
.......___Q
...../(....)
......//..\\
 
One thing is for sure after reading this thread and "Expo Rigged" and other threads is that this site is mostly about Utah. I wonder if there is anything going on in any other state?
 
 
"I hate to tell you guys this....BUT in our country people with money tend to get a lot of things average folks don't! IT IS CALLED DEMOCRACY---NOT SOCIALISM---"

I am still scratching my head about this part...
 
Jason, I honestly understand and accept the fact that rich guys are going to have bigger homes, a nicer car, and a better tag than me. For me, my "whining" & "complaining" is in hopes that Utah sportsmen will say "enough is enough". We give the rich 5% of our quality tags now, that is enough. No more! Giving them 50% of our Antelope Island tags is wrong.
I like Don Peay and all the guys at SFW. I consider them friends. I hoped, and still hope, that they will stand up for us little guys whose hands remain at our sides during auctions.

These threads always turn into blaming SFW because of all the groups, they are the most public and IMO make the most difference here in Utah. I admire Don, John, Troy, Ryan, and SFW far more than any of the other groups for many of the reasons some people hate them, because they are involved.
Many of the other groups get lots of conservation tags too, but do very little. They pay bills and throw a little back at wildlife. They keep their mouths shut, rarely have an opinion on anything, and slide under the radar. I can assure you, they all like conservation tags a LOT too and I'm sure they do what they can to keep them around too.

I really do support most of what these groups do, I would just like to see they themselves, along with the DNR draw a line on the number of auction tags. But, they don't and probably won't, because the money is REALLY easy to get and it's BIG money. Until the sportsmen of Utah stand up and say, enough is enough, they will keep finding excuses why more auction tags are a good thing.

We've been hearing about the huge difference these tags have made for years. In my honest opinion, our elk herd is not the best just because of the money conservation tags raised. Our herd is great because tags are highly limited. Colorado went from having horrible deer quality and herd in the 90's to the best in the world in just 5-6 years. How? They cut tags! If Colorado cut their elk tags back to just a few thousand, they would quickly surpass Utah in quality.

Sure, some great things like sheep transplants, bison transplants, habitat projects, and even paying Don to lobby for sportsmen, have come from conservation tags. BUT, when does it end? Every person has a point when they will say "enough is enough". Is it when the rich get 5% (NOW), how about when they get 10%, 20%, 50%,......100% ????

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
>We've been hearing about the huge
>difference these tags have made
>for years. In my honest
>opinion, our elk herd is
>not the best just because
>of the money conservation tags
>raised. Our herd is great
>because tags are highly limited.


Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
 
I agree 100% with Brian. I think that there should be a cap on auction tags...But like he stated a percentage. I am not worried about this magic number of 540 everyone is so mad about. First of all 200 of those tags come back to the average joes in the expo. Secondly SFW does not get all those tags other groups get some. SO.... HERE IS A QUESTION FOR DON and ALSO FOR all OF YOU...WHAT PERCENTAGE IS FAIR??? WE ALL AGREE THAT SFW, MDF, FNAWS, UBA, AND OTHERS DESERVE SOME TAGS AND DO LOTS OF GOOD FOR OUR STATE SO LETS NOT FOCUS ON 540 AS A NUMBER. LET'S PUT OUR HEADS TOGETHER AND COME UP WITH A FAIR PERCENTAGE AND LET'S MAKE IT HAPPEN SO EVERYONE IS HAPPY! IF WE ALL BAND TOGETHER AND PUSH FOR A PERCENTAGE CAP WE CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN!! SO I WILL BE THE FIRST TO VOTE... IF WE CAN GET THE STATE TO AGREE TO A 5-8% CAP I WOULD SUPPORT IT. That means all conservation groups combined! We can then let the state decide how to divy them up! If a certain group is doing more for wildlife then they get more tags! If a certain part of the state needs help (AI for example) then the state can choose to give more tags to them? Make it a true capitalistic society and get a little friendly competition among all the conservation groups to see who can do the most for wildlife and reward the best ones with more tags!!!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-10 AT 00:27AM (MST)[p]I missed one thing that Brain said that I don't know if I agree with..IT is when he said elk tags were limited and that helped elk quality! 10 years ago we had 650 LE elk tags and no 400" bulls. Now we have 2800 LE elk tags and lots of big bulls. SO expalin to me how we have cut elk tags to increase quality when we now have 4 times as many tags??? Just A Question not an attack! Please respond

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
It takes time to get bulls into the age class to produce 400" bulls consistently. I know of at least one 400" bull that has come off the North Cache unit, are you saying that it was because of habitat projects down south that made it possible? Elk are easy to manage, as far as population and health of the herd go. Arizona produces world class elk, and they don't have 540 conservation tags. Colorado has far better habitat than Utah will ever have, yet they don't produce the 400" bulls Utah does. It is 100% due to Limited Entry that Utah has monster bulls. The ruse is, the conservation groups claim the funds from these money tags is to help the deer herd, yet the deer are in a world of hurt according to the SAME conservation groups. They just last fall pushed through shorter seasons, now later this year they will be pushing for statewide Limited Entry for deer. Tell me, other than having more OIL animals/permits that most hunters will still never hunt, what has all these funds from these money tags produced?
 
Funny how many Yanks confuse Capitalism with Democracy. LMFAO! But then again, what would I know, most of you think I live in a Socialist Country. :) But who's complaining when I get to hunt and kill 200 inch bucks every year in my own backyard with a $15 OTC tag.
 
If limiting tags is not what increases quality, then why have I read 100 threads on MM about how increasing tags is destroying quality? Why is everyone always arguing here about increasing tags, decreasing tags, adjusting age objectives, etc? Why is SFW lobbying to increase age objectives and lower tag numbers?
 
MY BAD I GUESS I AM A YANK--I MEANT CAPITOLISM--SORRY ;-)

Guys I don't know the answer to this one which is why I asked the question but- I still struggle with this concept. If it is simply age class are you telling me that 15 years ago when we literally had one B&C elk in the HISTORY OF our state it was all because of age class? So in the previous 50 years ONLY ONE elk was smart enough to live long enough to grow 375" horns. ALL the rest either died younger or were so smart none of the thousands of hunters could find them. SOUNDS kinda fishy!!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
Do other states put bulls in the record books? If so, how is that possible since they don't give 500+ tags to the rich guys? Think about it! How many record book bulls are taken on the any-bull areas? The lack of book bulls on the any-bull areas is because the bulls never get old enough to reach such lofty status. Same goes for 95% of Colorado, where finding a 300" bull is a heck of an accomplishment on most parts of the state, even with having a half MILLION elk. Colorado habitat kicks Utah habitat in the ass, the produce more elk/deer, yet far fewer 400" bulls. It is NOT habitat, it is LIMITED ENTRY that has brought about 380+ bulls on LIMITED ENTRY units. Yes, it really is that simple.
 
It is like this MT---

You are one of the most accomplished and respected bow hunters in our state of Utah.

BUT....

Look at your trail of P&Y animals.....very- very few have UTAH as the state of harvest.....

Even you need to take your Utah earned paycheck, spend that Utah earned money elsewhere and go to other states to be able to actually hunt....year in--year out.

Robb

'SFW turns fellow hunters against fellow hunters'
 
I'm not a Utahan, so maybe some will say I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can't help but wonder why those who complain about groups like SFW never consider that there might in fact be a lot more wildlife because of their actions, and it then follows that those auction tags are not really taken from the general pool in the sense that they're taken from a larger pool that they helped create. Yes, they are taken from the pool, but if that pool has 1,000 elk tags instead of formerly 500 then I'd have to think everyone wins.

More than anything, I really look forward to the day when you all spend as much time and effort opposing anti-hunters as you do opposing hunters that do things in a way you may not approve of, or be able to do yourself. In this regard, some of you have really crappy aim!

By the way, am I the only one who has noticed that an unusual number of those bashing SFW on this thread are people with less than 100 total posts? THAT strikes me as fishy in and of itself.
 
Wow! We have all seen both the rich and poor get trophy game opportunities.

I'm not to hip on the rich getting a better opportunity than me, but if the money is used to help make an average tag stay less for those who haven't had as much and is used for better game management then go for it!

We all have seen monster game taken on "Cheap" tags, it just normally takes a little harder work and luck! As to where the Rich had the Hard work and luck before the hunt started! (in most cases)

That's my 2 cents.


Hunting supplies at great prices and Free Shipping. www.PaysonOutfitters.com
 
CAelknuts, I also have noticed most of us 'whining' are newbies. I have a theory about that, the country woke up and started voicing their displeasure of how America is being led AFTER Obama was put into office, not because of racism, but because of the open disregard for the people and their freedoms. My theory is, hunters are starting to wake up as well. For me, it started a couple of years ago, by the shortening of the deer season to 3-5 day hunts. It hit me like a brick. If all the funds were being spent on habitat, WTH is the deer herd hurting so bad the very group out pimping these money tags was pushing to reduce season lengths? The straw that broke the back for me was the new elk proposal pushed from the SAME groups that reduced the deer season. This new proposal once again takes even more opportunity away from the average hunter. Enough is enough, I have dissolved my membership to the GOP, and to SFW, as I see BOTH have forgotten their roots and principles and have sold out to big money.
 
+1 nuts, good post. Your right about one thing, we need to voice our anger towards the anti's, not the guys who like to hunt like ourselves. Thats gotten to be a real problem, remember the old saying " Divide and Conquer", lets not let the anti's do that to us, thanks Brownie.
 
Great post Payson. Thank you! +1 nuts. Pleasedear I have gotten a few P&Y animals in Utah including an elk off the wasatch unit in 2009. I love to be able to hunt other states to and I am grateful that I can, but as an archer I am not disatisfied with our state. Maybe I am biased but I think there are plenty of oportunity for P & Y mule deer on and off the wasatch front in Utah. I have hunted several general units in the state and I am always after pope and young class animals. I am an optomist but I see opportunity all around me in this state to hunt deer. I have been on lots of rifle hunts and helped friends and family take nice deer on general tags even in the last 5 years so it isn't as bad of a picture as some want to paint. Don't get me wrong it could be better for sure but I think managing smaller units would help and giving more archery permits for LE and less rifle would make a huge difference. The areas where conservation projects have been done deer numbers have increased dramatically.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
>Now we are talking.
>
>So, do we all agree every
>tag should be put up
>for auction since otherwise some
>sort of damn socialism is
>creeping into hunting? Hip hip
>horray. Golden rule my way,
>baby!!
>
>No more pesky Average Joe's or
>silly kids out there getting
>in my way with their
>asinine "meat in the freezer"
>or "like to hunt once
>more with grandpa" attitudes.
>
>Finally, we can agree that shooting
>anything less than a 400
>elk or 200 deer is
>just screwing up my chance
>to have my set of
>guides and spotters and the
>gun bearer from doing their
>job for me.
>
>For a minute I thought some
>of you were seriously going
>to support a fair shake
>at tags by just anyone.
>Jeez.

is their really no place for a average guy to go shoot a 2 point buck a dink bull is it really a rich mans game? think just a little about what utah was like 20 years ago and just be grateful
 
Just a thought... If it's not habitat why is the Bookcliffs now producing BIG bulls? I believe we are hunting more bulls now than we ever have, I remember when the roadless was the most coveted tag in the state and a 350 bull was almost unheard of. And since the big fire, we have seen habitat increase and rejuvenate and Its been since that fire we have had the Big bulls show up on the Bookcliffs. I personally don't believe it was age related, the age hasn't changed since the early days out there.

Age does not equate into big! it helps in the equation, but its just a part.

HOYTME as you said its just that simple, But its really not, the Bookcliffs are proof of that. They have been very limited for a long time, especially the roadless and Its only been recently that its produced those GIANT BULLS.

Just my thoughts, on what I've witnessed these past 30 years.

Greg
 
Don't be so quick to give the credit of all our big bulls to the conservation groups and the selling of the public resource. The single biggest reason we have all the elk numbers and size of bulls is based on the fact that we kill very few bulls out of each herd.

The management practices of Spike only and LE only hunts has had the majority of the impact in the elk herd exploding to the numbers we have now. The lack of tags per unit has increased the age class of bulls which in turn increases their size to their genetic potential. These larger bulls and the increase in bulls per 100 cows allows for almost 100% recruitment of calves that come from cows bred early in the rut. These calves have a higher survival rate due to an earlier birth rate.

SFW and the like have not "given us back" 5000 more elk tags. They have simply been a tool to assist in the process. I would submit that this tool has had very little to do with it. The cost of loosing 5% of tags is way to much. To drop it into a 2% rate would be much more palatable and probably more in line with what the public would accept and tolerate. The lower tag numbers would actually drive tag sales back up to a higher bid number and net close to the same moneys earned meanwhile providing more LE tags for the general public whose resource it is. Their attitude of take take take is getting very old and needs to be put in check.

Far too much credit is given to these org's. The deer herds are still failing. Habitat improvement is very necessary but does not seem to do much for our deer and our elk are thriving with what we have.

My vote would be a 2% rate of tags to the orgs and NO more EVER!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-10 AT 11:32AM (MST)[p]Dikndirt is right, when I started hunting in the late 70's in Oregon you could just buy your deer or elk tag and go anywhere. Not anymore, in eastern Oregon you have to put in too see if you get to hunt, don't draw, no hunt, so a lot of people get discouraged and take up other sports unless you have the money to go to other states or buy the gov tags. It has truned into a rich man sport.
just my thoughts.
Tinehunter
 
I still hope to join that class(the RICH CLASS) Hunting is like Farming I would like to do both with money this time around.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
By the way, FWIW folks, this isn't a democracy, or a "capitalism". LOL. Since when did capitalism become a form of government? We live in a republic.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-10 AT 05:05PM (MST)[p]Oops - wrong thread. No big surprise that I could get these threads confused.
 
Now I feel like I am back in school dryfly! I don't know the answer?!@%$ Government, capitolism, republic, democracy, socialism?????? I think I failed that test in college. Now I am all confused! ;-) I don't know what the heck we are called but I do know it is America, and if you want something bad enough you can do something about it.

Who knew MM had so many politically correct fellas???

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
everyone keeps throwing the words rich man around. alot of the tags sell for less than what i would consider rich man money what do you sfw haters consider a rich man?
 
>everyone keeps throwing the words rich
>man around. alot of the
>tags sell for less than
>what i would consider rich
>man money what do you
>sfw haters consider a rich
>man?

To me, it isn't about the 'rich guys'. It is about the process of how the permits are doled out, the accountability of the funds raised from the conservation tags, the actual results in real numbers from this massive investment, the lost opportunity for average hunter whose only option to hunt mature bulls is to draw a permit. I have NOTHING against 'rich guys', I do have issues with the process and the backroom deals that take place.
 
I should of mentioned in my original post that I have no ill will towards those who have worked hard and can afford to buy tags. I would buy one every year if I was in a position to do so. The ill will towards these tags is not about who buys them. It is simply about the volume of tags versus the benefit. Utah gives out way to many plain and simple. Cut it to 1-2% and manage the money better.
 
I have no issue with who has what. I just believe that the minute your state allows any sort of private tags for landowners it is the start of the end of your public access to hunt big game. I think AZ was right to always refuse any landowner tags. JMO.
 
There is no argument!!! Money affords opportunity. It shouldn't matter when it comes to hunting but the States have finally figured out that wildlife is a cash cow.
 
AMEN! At least a few people are still grateful to live in a country where hard work is rewarded.
 
the rich guys should be able to buy a tag... on a private game ranch or indian res, but NOT on public land in any way shape or form.
The wealth tag system of UT should embarrass the UT residents. People blindly think that the ORGS made the Elk hunting what it is, not the limiting of tags. If the ORGS were so great at what they claim to have done with Elk, they should be able to do the same with deer and lopes but guess what..... The lies exposed there now isnt it? They take credit for the good, but have excuses for the rest. Not saying they are all bad, but they sure skate around hard questions asked over and over.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

SDC10011.JPG
IMG_8527.jpeg
4F6299A7-A724-4B00-A049-40C98296A751.jpeg
20230927_140045.jpg
20221030_203254.jpg
20230918_194447~2.jpg
2019110295083406.jpg
VideoCapture_20230816-174522.jpg
98024023-075C-4B15-8F42-6BDB0F814153.jpeg
20220415_131430.jpg
CF0D739B-79CB-4055-B99C-D88B36D59A11.jpeg
ScoutDeer.jpg
Back
Top Bottom