Rifle/Muzzy/Archery Tech

[Ballistic]

How has the tech on all 3 weapon types evolved ?
When did it evolve ?
How far were max ranges on these weapons and what were the approx/ actual dates ?
Please attempt to provide actual data or facts. Post that data or articles for reference please.
I’ll jump in with some data soon.
Thanks

 

[Bux n Dux]

I know Rick Valdez was shooting animals at 150 yards with a fixed pin sight and solid limb PSE bow mid 90s. There plenty of videos on the internet to back that up. Natives weren’t just shooting 15 yards with their bows 500 years ago…

Guys have been launching lead with center fires at 500+ since the 60s (and earlier). Well before rangefinders and turret dialing scopes…

There were dudes smoked at ungodly distances on purpose with “primitive” muzzleloaders during the civil war…

It’s not the weapon. It’s the guy holding it. Take an 8k muzzleloader capable of 1000 yards shots and hand it most of your average utards. It just became a 250 yard muzzleloader. Same can be said with a bow and a rifle. There isn’t a “max” effective range with any given weapon. The effectiveness depends on the projectile being fired. The accuracy part of it comes with the guy pulling the trigger.

 

[Airborne]

I can go off of my experience which is data to a sort

Archery:
My first compound was bought in 1993. Was a used Martin Lynx with an overdraw. Shooting aluminum arrows. I practiced a lot being an early teenager and by the time I was 16 years old I would say I could consistently hit an 8" circle at 50 yards being my max.

Yesterday I shot 5 arrows out of my Hoyt at 100 yards and all 5 were within that 8" circle. I won't shoot at a non wounded animal at that range and consider my max range at 80 yards for most hunting applications. So overall I would say a 60% increase in archery range effectiveness.

Rifle:
Bought my first deer rifle in 1994 I believe, still have it. Rem 700 30-06 ADL shooting corelokt factory ammo it's a 2-3 MOA gun. I put a 3-9 Bushnell on it at the time. No range finders back then so leaving out lucky shots I would follow the Max Point Blank Range and say out to 280 yards I was probably good with it.

My current setup 300 WM with Leupold 20X scope and handloads I feel comfortable out to 600+ yards in average conditions. Can push that further if no wind and cut it back in a stiff breeze. Let's call it doubling the effectiveness (560 yard max) of the rifle so a 100% increase from early 90's to now

Muzzleloader:
I didn't hunt with a muzzy in my teens but I shot them with my uncle who was an avid mountain man enthusiast. I could shoot his hawkins with round balls pretty good out to 100 yards. I would say that would be considered my 8" group max.

My CVA Accura with a scope/turrets/BH209/Sabots with 300gr XTP's I feel very confident out to 300+ yards and beyond honestly. Let's call it 300 yards for simplicity for most hunting conditions. So I would say I triple my max range with my current set up compared to mid 1990's.

I am betting that what I presented above is probably pretty close for most average hunters.
60% increase in Archery
100% increase in Rifle
200% increase in Muzzy

Range finders and scopes are a key factor in being able to make any shot that is beyond point blank range. Especially in low light conditions where most shots happen.

Although I respect what Bux N Dux says above this really should be a discussion about averages and not above average hunters/marksmen.

I consider myself an average big game hunter. I am an above average upland game hunter and a below average waterfowl hunter.

Hope this was helpful

 

[twopointdn]

First compound bow in the early 90’s I practiced out to 50 yards. I practice out to 100 yards now with my bow.

First muzzleloader (side lock/mini ball conical/factor open sights) I practiced out to 125 yards and now I practice out to 400 yards with my CVA Accura V2 with a Leupold 4.5x14x40 scope with a CDS dial. My 1x scope on this same gun with the same load I practiced out to 225 yards.

My first rifle in the early 90’s was a 30-30 with a 3x9 cheap scope practice out to 150 yards. Soon after moved to a 270 win with cheap 3x9 scope practice out to 300 yards with hold over. 2000’s went to 270 WSM with a Leupold 4.5x14x40 with custom hold over crosshairs out to 600 yards built to my load. Now 300 RUM with 3x15x44 Leupold scope, CDS dial, hand loads and high bc projectiles I practice out to 1100 yards.

I would say we are heading in the wrong direct as hunters and the right direction as shooters. I would consider myself an average big game hunter with a bow, muzzleloader, and rifle and below average at anything to do with a shotgun.

Have fun.

 

[elkassassin]

So?

You're Gonna Say hawky's 300 With a SIG BDX is Only a 100% Increase?

I Call BS!

I Know!

I Know!

You Said Average!

I can go off of my experience which is data to a sort

Archery:
My first compound was bought in 1993. Was a used Martin Lynx with an overdraw. Shooting aluminum arrows. I practiced a lot being an early teenager and by the time I was 16 years old I would say I could consistently hit an 8" circle at 50 yards being my max.

Yesterday I shot 5 arrows out of my Hoyt at 100 yards and all 5 were within that 8" circle. I won't shoot at a non wounded animal at that range and consider my max range at 80 yards for most hunting applications. So overall I would say a 60% increase in archery range effectiveness.

Rifle:
Bought my first deer rifle in 1994 I believe, still have it. Rem 700 30-06 ADL shooting corelokt factory ammo it's a 2-3 MOA gun. I put a 3-9 Bushnell on it at the time. No range finders back then so leaving out lucky shots I would follow the Max Point Blank Range and say out to 280 yards I was probably good with it.

My current setup 300 WM with Leupold 20X scope and handloads I feel comfortable out to 600+ yards in average conditions. Can push that further if no wind and cut it back in a stiff breeze. Let's call it doubling the effectiveness (560 yard max) of the rifle so a 100% increase from early 90's to now

Muzzleloader:
I didn't hunt with a muzzy in my teens but I shot them with my uncle who was an avid mountain man enthusiast. I could shoot his hawkins with round balls pretty good out to 100 yards. I would say that would be considered my 8" group max.

My CVA Accura with a scope/turrets/BH209/Sabots with 300gr XTP's I feel very confident out to 300+ yards and beyond honestly. Let's call it 300 yards for simplicity for most hunting conditions. So I would say I triple my max range with my current set up compared to mid 1990's.

I am betting that what I presented above is probably pretty close for most average hunters.
60% increase in Archery
100% increase in Rifle
200% increase in Muzzy

Range finders and scopes are a key factor in being able to make any shot that is beyond point blank range. Especially in low light conditions where most shots happen.

Although I respect what Bux N Dux says above this really should be a discussion about averages and not above average hunters/marksmen.

I consider myself an average big game hunter. I am an above average upland game hunter and a below average waterfowl hunter.

Hope this was helpful

 

[roadrunner]

I have no quantitative data that I have looked up, only qualitative based on personal experience as mentioned by others above.

First compound had round wheels, dacron string and steel cables with tear drops for the string loop ends. It was a Martin Tiger followed by a second PSE Strato Flite Express and then a Fire Flite Express. Throw in a Darton w/wood riser, Bowtech Extreme Solo Cam, Mathews, Prime, Xpedition, and Hoyt and the one common theme in them all: CNC milling and machining, enhanced computer 3D D&D modeling, and enhanced materials manufacturing processes.

The other thing that sets pre-2000 compound bows apart from today are tunable yoke systems instead of the stiff cable and shim wheel/cam axles for a not so perfect bow tune. The goal was always flat trajectory and a 23" arrow with an overdraw cookin' along at 220 fps was something to brag about.

We went from old fiberglass arrows and telephone pole size aluminum arrows, Satellite Broadheads that nearly flew apart in midflight to high strength to weight ratio carbon arrows and CNC machined and laser cut broadheads.

Can't say release aides since we shot with them clear back in the 80's. Had crosshair sights back then as well as standard pins, but not fiber-optic for light gathering purposes for pin brightness.

With rifles, better manufacturing processes, better optics, and engineered computer modeling for ballistics design.

Muzzleloaders have similar advancements as rifles, but a muzzleloader is really just a rifle. Controlled manufacturing and component formulation of powder, and 200 yd shots are repeatable and predictable.

Laser rangefinders are used by all three, 40 years ago an analog rangefinder was used that had a dial and you moved it until two rectangles aligned giving you the yardage (mostly for archery).

People having more time and money to buy things and perfect their "craft" has contributed as much as anything.

 

[mtmuley]

You can post yardages and brag on the internet. Ego drives a lot of this long range crap. mtmuley

 

[Ballistic]

I’ll attach some articles at a later date for information purposes but for now I’ll share my observations as a shooter.

Archery
1970,s recurve - 40 yards max
1980,s compound 50-60 yards max
1990,s compound 60-70 yards max
2020 compound 100 yards max but eyes started going so it’s less now by a lot.

Pre rangefinder days you paced and marked in increments and hunted from a stand or blind.

Muzzleloader
1970,s patch and ball 100-150 yards but switched to Great Plains and maxi balls and easily went to 300 yards and beyond. Without the rangefinder -shots couldn’t be made well unless you were at a marked range.

1980,s - 1990,s -inlines from knight and Thompson. Could shoot a lower grain bullet in a sabot out to 400 yards but had to peg the wind perfectly to do it. Was difficult to repeat hits. So it was closer to 300 yards.

Modern 2023 with the best barrel (brux) and stock and ignition and bore rider high BC bullets. Can shoot decently well out to 400 yards in cold temps and dry humidity and need to get a good read on the wind. Can stretch further but not with repeatable results. Temp changes and seating pressure (force testing) results in large spreads in speed that make hitting a 12” steel plate really difficult past 350 yards. If you wait 10-15 min between shots it can be done. I take detailed notes and shoot year round. Humidity also plays a huge role with the best powder available (blackhorn 209). It affects the velocity and the fouling goes up 3-4X normal vs dry climates. Clean bores impact close to 2 inches different than dirty bores. Have outshot any one that has a new high $$$ muzzy to date at the local gun range and on longer distance steel plates but I know all the variables pretty well and attempt to adjust. Still can’t guarantee a 1st round hit - because of the above variables.

Rifle
1970,s 270 win and 300 mag. Not sure of distances just like the muzzy. Set a 300 yard zero with a weaver K4 and sent the lead. The 270 was a better rifle for me.
1980,s The Tasco world class scope and all the other brands with higher magnification made the elk look closer so holdovers we’re used and I’m estimating 500 yard shots were made based off holdovers.

1990-2010 custom barrels and custom chambers for 6.5-338 were made to my specs because factory Remington and other barrels looked like files inside the barrel.Quality of rifles took a step back from the 70,s - 80s. Hand loads were necessary because even the best gold metal match ammo wasn’t that great -but getting better. Factory chambers (specs) were pretty loose for safety reasons. Neck sizing could be done to improve things. I could shoot the custom stuff over 1 mile and even did ok at 2 miles with custom everything. Factory match ammo and if you got lucky with a decent barrel -800 yards max

2015-Present.
Factory chambers are much tighter and barrel quality is much better. Factory ammo is much better and equals hand loading. The PRC and others chambers are like the custom match chambers of 10 years ago.
1000 yards is pretty easy with the 6.5 creedmore and it’s the baby. And have shot well at 1 mile with factory guns and factory ammo.

The worst scopes of today are somewhat like the best scopes of 10 years ago so a cheap $300 special and you’re on target. Rangefinders have also changed the game with all 3 weapons or longer shots would have happened earlier on.

In my early days of hunting - buck fever was horrible. To get better I shot alot and I mean alot I have worn many centerfire barrels out and have also worn a few muzzleloader barrels out. I don’t shoot archery as often now from eyes going -but like to do it because it builds shooting form - and that’s required to shoot any weapon well.

Did all the 3 weapons get better in 50 years I would say yes. Did some get better by leaps over the others ? That I’m not entirely sure. Data can be argued in any way you want it to a degree. I personally believe the rifle tech went the furthest - followed by the muzzleloader and archery.
History can tell a different story on all 3 as there have been past shooters that stretched the limits on them.
The same is true today -If someone makes an amazing shot - we all think that’s the new standard.
My personal observations are that a very high percentage of hunters can not make the long shots as claimed and most can’t make a 300 yard shot with a 2023 tech rifle.
However - the newer tech (electronics) of all 3 weapons is bridging the gaps to make the longer shot possible. The new PRS purpose built scopes are an example of this.
Without the latest scope and rangefinder and electronics - are the newer systems still that much better and more capable than the old ?
I would say yes and no. I just don’t believe that 1 has progressed at a much higher rate than the others.
Some data/facts are needed. Just my observations and what I’ve been doing for close to 50 years now. And as a shooter and a hunter.

My PRS steel days I was given the name “mister ballistic” I’m a much better spotter than a shooter. As a spotter - many made the podium. My observations and personal shooting distances are less than those that know it better. I am still learning every single day - don’t have all of the answers - but might have a few.
How many hunters and shooters are doing what I do - I would say way less than 1%.

The tech on all 3 has advanced without scopes/rangefinders/electronics.

 

[elkassassin]

Rifle TECH Has Went The Furthest!

Some Of Them From Touch Off Are taking 24 Seconds For The Bullet To Hit It's Mark!

Or Not Hit It's Mark!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

How has the tech on all 3 weapon types evolved ?

It evolved when we allowed it to happen.

How far were max ranges on these weapons and what were the approx/ actual dates ?

When we allowed all this to happen. Everyone wants wants wants so the manufactures try and keep up with our wants But we don't NEED it.

Sorry but this is the truth.

I have harvested 35 elk in the 32 years of hunting. My furthest shot was on a elk at 350 yards with a 7mm wsm with a 3x9 Nikon scope. This was in 2009.

The rest where all under 200 yards with my 7mm wsm upgraded to a Zeiss V4 4x12

Archery
I have harvested all my deer under 60 yards. I will not shoot at anything over 60 yards period. My closet harvest was a cow Elk was at 19 yards.

Muzzleloader I still have the old set up on it 1x powered scope.

The furthest I shot an Elk at was 85 yards the rest was under that.

My 18 year old son has been hunting for 5 years and he is 5 for 5 on Elk.

He harvested a cow at 200 yards with a 8mm Mauser open sights.

Then he shot two elk in the same year with a Muzzleloader open sights both where under 50 yards.

The other 2 where bulls he harvested was under 150 yards with a rifle with a vortex 3x9.

Archery
he harvested his buck at 25 yards 2 years ago.

1990 -2022 nothing really has changed for me or my son. Still harvesting at the same distances from the first day I started and he started.

 

[MrShane]

First compound bow in the early 90’s I practiced out to 50 yards. I practice out to 100 yards now with my bow.

First muzzleloader (side lock/mini ball conical/factor open sights) I practiced out to 125 yards and now I practice out to 400 yards with my CVA Accura V2 with a Leupold 4.5x14x40 scope with a CDS dial. My 1x scope on this same gun with the same load I practiced out to 225 yards.

My first rifle in the early 90’s was a 30-30 with a 3x9 cheap scope practice out to 150 yards. Soon after moved to a 270 win with cheap 3x9 scope practice out to 300 yards with hold over. 2000’s went to 270 WSM with a Leupold 4.5x14x40 with custom hold over crosshairs out to 600 yards built to my load. Now 300 RUM with 3x15x44 Leupold scope, CDS dial, hand loads and high bc projectiles I practice out to 1100 yards.

I would say we are heading in the wrong direct as hunters and the right direction as shooters. I would consider myself an average big game hunter with a bow, muzzleloader, and rifle and below average at anything to do with a shotgun.

Have fun.

What are you talkin’ about!
I saw your first Canada Goose hit the water hard!!

 

[roadrunner]

It evolved when we allowed it to happen.

When we allowed all this to happen. Everyone wants wants wants so the manufactures try and keep up with our wants But we don't NEED it.

Sorry but this is the truth.

I have harvested 35 elk in the 32 years of hunting. My furthest shot was on a elk at 350 yards with a 7mm wsm with a 3x9 Nikon scope. This was in 2009.

The rest where all under 200 yards with my 7mm wsm upgraded to a Zeiss V4 4x12

Archery
I have harvested all my deer under 60 yards. I will not shoot at anything over 60 yards period. My closet harvest was a cow Elk was at 19 yards.

Muzzleloader I still have the old set up on it 1x powered scope.

The furthest I shot an Elk at was 85 yards the rest was under that.

My 18 year old son has been hunting for 5 years and he is 5 for 5 on Elk.

He harvested a cow at 200 yards with a 8mm Mauser open sights.

Then he shot two elk in the same year with a Muzzleloader open sights both where under 50 yards.

The other 2 where bulls he harvested was under 150 yards with a rifle with a vortex 3x9.

Archery
he harvested his buck at 25 yards 2 years ago.

1990 -2022 nothing really has changed for me or my son. Still harvesting at the same distances from the first day I started and he started.

More like wanted it to happen. Anyone hunting since the mid 80's embraced it when it was available, and now here we are.

Don't forget, John Rambo and the Dukes of Hazard County played a part in compound popularity

 

[twopointdn]

What are you talkin’ about!
I saw your first Canada Goose hit the water hard!!

? I got lucky on one. If I was good with a shotgun I would have had more than one with my empty gun. That was a ton of fun.

 

[deadibob]

back before rangefinders every hunting story had a 700 yard or further kill shot.

 

[hossblur]

Ballistic explains the difference and maybe doesn't realize it. He talks about shooters.

Yes, shooters hunt, and hunters shoot.

But we shouldn't have regs based off of shooters, nor their latest and greatest.

The real question isn't how has it changed. The real question is what's coming and how fast.

With AI, robotics, nano tech, gps guidance here NOW, and evolving daily, it won't be 50 years for an entirely different muzzleloader, it will be a couple years.

And YES, shooters will buy it up the high dollar outfitters will push it, and the industry will welcome continuous market changes.

2 years to do something simple like restore to prior.

Imagine how rifles will go.


We really have to decide if we want to be shooters or hunters, because they aren't the same thing.

 

[elkassassin]

So?

This Shitt's Been Happening Forever Now!

And Nobody Said Much Until 2023 Rolled Around?

They've Allowed Most Of The BS That's Rolled Around!

Maybe Somebody Should Start An AUTOMOBILE/VEHICLE COMMITTEE?

Nobody Says JACK F'N SQUAT About Them?

You Telling Me They Ain't A Part Of The Problem?

Gonna SUCK Big Time Hossy When You Get That YOTA All Decked Out With All The BS TECHNOLOGY You're Adding To It & They OUT-LAW It During Hunts On Public Ground!

Just Sayin...............!

Ballistic explains the difference and maybe doesn't realize it. He talks about shooters.

Yes, shooters hunt, and hunters shoot.

But we shouldn't have regs based off of shooters, nor their latest and greatest.

The real question isn't how has it changed. The real question is what's coming and how fast.

With AI, robotics, nano tech, gps guidance here NOW, and evolving daily, it won't be 50 years for an entirely different muzzleloader, it will be a couple years.

And YES, shooters will buy it up the high dollar outfitters will push it, and the industry will welcome continuous market changes.

2 years to do something simple like restore to prior.

Imagine how rifles will go.


We really have to decide if we want to be shooters or hunters, because they aren't the same thing.

 

[hossblur]

So?

This Shitt's Been Happening Forever Now!

And Nobody Said Much Until 2023 Rolled Around?

They've Allowed Most Of The BS That's Rolled Around!

Maybe Somebody Should Start An AUTOMOBILE/VEHICLE COMMITTEE?

Nobody Says JACK F'N SQUAT About Them?

You Telling Me They Ain't A Part Of The Problem?

Gonna SUCK Big Time Hossy When You Get That YOTA All Decked Out With All The BS TECHNOLOGY You're Adding To It & They OUT-LAW It During Hunts On Public Ground!

Just Sayin...............!

They ain't given me a key yet.

Nor did they give dad one when he had lung cancer.

 

[Ballistic]

The argument will never end on what a shooter and a hunter is. That’s an ethics debate. There are those that “can” shoot better at longer distances than those that “can’t” at shorter distances.

For each weapon type -
Can you explain this -
At what distance are you a hunter ?
And what distance are you a shooter ?
Thanks

Ballistic explains the difference and maybe doesn't realize it. He talks about shooters
Yes, shooters hunt, and hunters shoot.

We really have to decide if we want to be shooters or hunters, because they aren't the same.

 

[hossblur]

The argument will never end on what a shooter and a hunter is. That’s an ethics debate. There are those that “can” shoot better at longer distances than those that “can’t” at shorter distances.

For each weapon type -
Can you explain this -
At what distance are you a hunter ?
And what distance are you a shooter ?
Thanks

When your outside the animals ability to know your there, be it sight, smell, hearing.

 

[hossblur]

The argument will never end on what a shooter and a hunter is. That’s an ethics debate. There are those that “can” shoot better at longer distances than those that “can’t” at shorter distances.

For each weapon type -
Can you explain this -
At what distance are you a hunter ?
And what distance are you a shooter ?
Thanks

Or. What's the first thing you tell about in the story to your friend? If it's yardage, then you answered the question

 

[hossblur]

Or, if given an opportunity to hunt but you spend you time whining because of the weapon.

 

[twopointdn]

The argument will never end on what a shooter and a hunter is. That’s an ethics debate. There are those that “can” shoot better at longer distances than those that “can’t” at shorter distances.

For each weapon type -
Can you explain this -
At what distance are you a hunter ?
And what distance are you a shooter ?
Thanks

My answer to your questions would be; when the animal has no natural ability to sense danger no matter wind direction, noise, sight, etc. You are a shooter at that point not a hunter. These 1000-1700 yard kill shots on YouTube are just that “a good shot” not a good hunt. That is the best definition I can give you on what a shooter is versus a hunter. I prefer the challenge of the hunt but I have felt like a shooter on one buck I killed in Colorado a few years ago when I turn my turret for the first time on a animal that I was pulling the trigger on. I made a great shot but it did not make me feel the same as when I win the challenge of beating the animals nature sense. I know the feeling of being a hunter and if people are honest with themselves they could feel the difference of when they are shooters or hunters without having to define it.

 

[elkfromabove]

With a bow or shotgun in my hand, I'm always a hunter. With a rifle, I'm usually a shooter.

 

[deadibob]

The argument will never end on what a shooter and a hunter is. That’s an ethics debate. There are those that “can” shoot better at longer distances than those that “can’t” at shorter distances.

For each weapon type -
Can you explain this -
At what distance are you a hunter ?
And what distance are you a shooter ?
Thanks

There is a maximum range that is the limit for both hunters and shooters and it is the same for each. The distance at which you can consistently hit a 10" target while standing without any sticks or support. How many "SHOOTERS" can consistently do that at 500 yards? Yes you can increase the distance by finding a tree to rest on or a place to shoot from the prone position but the truth is that isn't always an option.

Hitting a target at 1,000 yards from a solid bench or rest doesn't make you a shooter or a hunter. It makes you a trigger puller. I see very few people who practice for real world hunting conditions.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

How far were max ranges on these weapons and what were the approx/ actual dates ?

The question that needs to be asked.

How many more hunters with today technology are taking further shots beyond their comfort zone?

 

[Ballistic]

Here’s some data
It’s mine and from proven BC models that have shown to be accurate on archery/muzzy/rifle. Labradar and field tested for drops and wind push.
The archery BC number was a struggle as there’s too many variables. Shooting at 20 yards-100 and then verifying raises at 10 yards - but the data is pretty solid.
Bring some of your data in to add or challenge any of the numbers -especially archery.

Time of flight for each weapon at its fastest speed which can be argued.
Time is (1/2) second when fired/released

Archery (330 fps). 45-50 yards
Muzzy (2500 fps). 230-250 yards
Rifle (3200 fps). 500 yards

Reaction Time - This gets slower as you age and it’s different for each person. It’s measured in milliseconds.
An average reaction time is somewhere between 200-300 milliseconds or 1/4 second.

Time of flight and reaction time need to be factored in when hunting. Why ?
An animal/target can move right when you are releasing/firing but your brain is 1/4 second behind.

So take the above chart and cut the distances in 1/2.

How far can that animal move in 3/4 of a second when you factor in the 2 combined?

When folks talk about a shooter vs a hunter - How many wounded animals have you seen from archery (arrows stuck in them) and muzzleloader and rifle -legs blown off/gut shot. And how many animals have you harvested that have had the 3 types of weapons found inside them ?

As a bow hunter I went 4 for 4 on elk in a tree stand. Furthest shot was 45 yards. Am I a hunter or a shooter?
Use a 10 mph gust of wind on all 3 weapons and the numbers get worse for my bow by triple that of rifle in 1/2 second.

Hunter vs Shooter -everyone has an opinion. And everyone should have a personal limit on that distance.

 

[elkfromabove]

Distance isn't the only factor separating a hunter from a shooter! And may not even be the primary factor. Shooting at a bounding deer, butt shooting, shooting at sounds, shooting at one on the skyline, shooting through brush, and shooting when it's too dark will also separate shooters from hunters.