San Juan/Lockhart
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littlebighorn
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Hey Pred,
Congrats on a great year!
I haven't hunted this unit but I know Zeke has and I am sure he will chime in at some point on your question. I do know that most of the rams taken in this unit are smaller. A 150 ram is a good ram in this unit, at least that is my understanding. However, I believe the unit record is pushing the "book", so one never knows.
Congrats on a great year!
I haven't hunted this unit but I know Zeke has and I am sure he will chime in at some point on your question. I do know that most of the rams taken in this unit are smaller. A 150 ram is a good ram in this unit, at least that is my understanding. However, I believe the unit record is pushing the "book", so one never knows.
bowhunt
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-11 AT 09:07AM (MST)[p]Hi Predator / Lisa.
The average days hunted to harvest a Ram on the Lockhart Unit, is the second highest of any unit, over the last few years.
About 14 days.
The average age of Ram harvested is near the bottom, at about 5.3 years.
I would guess that you are hunting 130-140 inch Rams on the unit, with the HOPES of seeing 140-150 inch Rams.
With that said, I would LOVE a tag on this or any Desert Sheep Unit. I would plan to hunt hard and be thrilled with a mature Ram.
The average days hunted to harvest a Ram on the Lockhart Unit, is the second highest of any unit, over the last few years.
About 14 days.
The average age of Ram harvested is near the bottom, at about 5.3 years.
I would guess that you are hunting 130-140 inch Rams on the unit, with the HOPES of seeing 140-150 inch Rams.
With that said, I would LOVE a tag on this or any Desert Sheep Unit. I would plan to hunt hard and be thrilled with a mature Ram.
greatwestern
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average age is 5.3??? damn, that's really a shame...looks like most of them poor young dudes never get the chance to grow up and be Rams
i certainly hope that nobody considers that age of sheep 'mature'???
what the hell is going on in there? somebody please enlighten me here
WHY?
i certainly hope that nobody considers that age of sheep 'mature'???
what the hell is going on in there? somebody please enlighten me here
WHY?
Zeke
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-11 AT 11:42AM (MST)[p]Greatwestern,
I cannot speak for the other hunters or for conditions since I hunted there 10 years ago. (wow, time flies)
My ram was 10 1/2 rears old and scored just over 142". I'M DAMN GLAD TO HAVE HIM! I know that's small but that's about all a fella can expect to kill. I cannot understand WHY they would need to kill a 5 year old. When I hunted it we saw plenty to choose from. It is TOUGH terrain but quite accessible.
It's pretty easy to tell a 5.5 year old from a 10.5 year old regardless of the score. I guess we shouldn't jump to conclusions about the unit since I have no knowledge of the quality of the HUNTER!
I have seen too many hunters hunting too early in the season. They spend too much time hunting when the rams are the least visible and they must simply feel desperate to kill a ram.
They should go later in the season and hunt until they score instead of burning-out during the tough times early season when the rams don't move (unless they are the few who can find them).
Well..... there's my 2 cents. People with differing opinions will be drawn and quartered!
Zeke
Edit: Pred, email and we will chat up the unit a little more.
I cannot speak for the other hunters or for conditions since I hunted there 10 years ago. (wow, time flies)
My ram was 10 1/2 rears old and scored just over 142". I'M DAMN GLAD TO HAVE HIM! I know that's small but that's about all a fella can expect to kill. I cannot understand WHY they would need to kill a 5 year old. When I hunted it we saw plenty to choose from. It is TOUGH terrain but quite accessible.
It's pretty easy to tell a 5.5 year old from a 10.5 year old regardless of the score. I guess we shouldn't jump to conclusions about the unit since I have no knowledge of the quality of the HUNTER!
I have seen too many hunters hunting too early in the season. They spend too much time hunting when the rams are the least visible and they must simply feel desperate to kill a ram.
They should go later in the season and hunt until they score instead of burning-out during the tough times early season when the rams don't move (unless they are the few who can find them).
Well..... there's my 2 cents. People with differing opinions will be drawn and quartered!
Zeke
Edit: Pred, email and we will chat up the unit a little more.
greatwestern
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Damnit Zeke! Yer Hired!! 
seriously, i don't care how many inches your OLD warrior had on his head when you killed him...a wisened dude like him is what trophy sheep hunting is all about, and you SHOULD feel damn proud for doing it right!
i just can't endorse this 'desperate' hunter perspective that 'justifies' the killing of any sheep under at least 8
oh right...they drew the tag, so thay simply CANNOT go home without a ram...nevermind age class, they're 'entitled' to one of them buggers by God!
the perspective that facilitates such a shoddy practice as knocking off young dudes "just to get a ram" is so incredibly myopic, its just really inexcusable
Now, let the Drawing and Quartering begin!
seriously, i don't care how many inches your OLD warrior had on his head when you killed him...a wisened dude like him is what trophy sheep hunting is all about, and you SHOULD feel damn proud for doing it right!
i just can't endorse this 'desperate' hunter perspective that 'justifies' the killing of any sheep under at least 8
oh right...they drew the tag, so thay simply CANNOT go home without a ram...nevermind age class, they're 'entitled' to one of them buggers by God!
the perspective that facilitates such a shoddy practice as knocking off young dudes "just to get a ram" is so incredibly myopic, its just really inexcusable
Now, let the Drawing and Quartering begin!
littlebighorn
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greatwestern,
While I don't disagree that one should always take as old of a ram as possible, I think saying at least 8 is a little myopic, especially with a once in a lifetime desert sheep. No doubt that age limit is fine where rams are plentiful and other opportunities to get a tag are possible. But if I were to see a 7 year old 150ish desert ram after hunting hard for two weeks, without a chance at another ram, the hammer would go down. And I would be darn proud of that trophy as well.
This years average age of harvested rams in Nevada is 6. (which by the way, has great desert rams) It lists a couple of mid 150 inch 4 year old rams harvested and a 175 inch 6 year old. When you have such a rare tag in your hands I think your perspective sometimes changes, and the pressure of harvesting any decent ram takes precedent.
My good friend killed a 4 year old this year, and I also know Zeke has a young (by your standard) ram in his collection as well. Given the circumstances of their hunts, they are trophies to be proud of.
Kill an old boy if you can for sure!
Sorry Pred, didn't mean to hi-jack your post!
While I don't disagree that one should always take as old of a ram as possible, I think saying at least 8 is a little myopic, especially with a once in a lifetime desert sheep. No doubt that age limit is fine where rams are plentiful and other opportunities to get a tag are possible. But if I were to see a 7 year old 150ish desert ram after hunting hard for two weeks, without a chance at another ram, the hammer would go down. And I would be darn proud of that trophy as well.
This years average age of harvested rams in Nevada is 6. (which by the way, has great desert rams) It lists a couple of mid 150 inch 4 year old rams harvested and a 175 inch 6 year old. When you have such a rare tag in your hands I think your perspective sometimes changes, and the pressure of harvesting any decent ram takes precedent.
My good friend killed a 4 year old this year, and I also know Zeke has a young (by your standard) ram in his collection as well. Given the circumstances of their hunts, they are trophies to be proud of.
Kill an old boy if you can for sure!
Sorry Pred, didn't mean to hi-jack your post!
here is a picture of 12 1/2 year old ram i took in Utah in 2007 how many hunter's would pass on a ram like this , Anyone want to try to guess what the score of this old warrior was . It was the most rewarding hunting experience of my life and anything but easy. Other's need to post 140 to 150 and show how nice they really are (nothing to sneeze at)He looks mighty fine on the wall
predator
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Zeke, I believe I do have your email. I really stand a snowball's chance in hell at ever drawing a sheep tag here, since I have so few points, just trying to play with the odds game a little.
I don't think with sheep I would care about score at all!! Just being on the hunt itself would be enough for me.
Thanks for the responses, and I don't think any hijacking occurred, it is still germaine as to why this unit has such a low age harvest compared to others.
Pred
I don't think with sheep I would care about score at all!! Just being on the hunt itself would be enough for me.
Thanks for the responses, and I don't think any hijacking occurred, it is still germaine as to why this unit has such a low age harvest compared to others.
Pred
greatwestern
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-11 AT 06:26PM (MST)[p]No no LBH, not 'myopic' at all...i fully understand your points, and i'm sure all those you use as examples can/will find a way to validate them...in a human sense, it is easy to do
i never said i don't 'understand' why folks knock off young dudes, i just don't 'agree' with it...no not at all. i am MUCH less concerned with one hunter's 'success', than i am in seeing a ram reach his full potential as a viable, contributing member of his rather rare and precious kind...again, inches are of no consequence in this context
i also understand that honest mistakes can be made...a good bud of mine drew his once in lifetime rocky tag a couple years ago. he is a very fit and able hunter, but the 12k+ altitude was eating him up pretty bad...after 7 days up there on the backpack expedition, he killed what he thought was a beautiful 9 year old ram...turns out the thing was 7, but had two pretty dark false annuli in what would appear to be likely places
he's not the kind to lament over what has already been done, and he was obviously thrilled with the ram in general, but he was also definitely disappointed at having been fooled, and pulling the trigger on that youngish dude...regardless of all them inches (179+) on his partially broomed horns
"Ah hell!" he told me, "...I probably wouldn't have shot him even if I had thought he was 8! I'd have kept suffering up there till the last of it, maybe try to kill one of them old, worn 170 type rams we seen before....hell, even eaten the tag if I'd had to!"
and in this philosophy, i supported him 100%
we'll just have to disagree on this one, Little Bighorn my friend
and yes, sorry for the 'jacking as well Predator!
i never said i don't 'understand' why folks knock off young dudes, i just don't 'agree' with it...no not at all. i am MUCH less concerned with one hunter's 'success', than i am in seeing a ram reach his full potential as a viable, contributing member of his rather rare and precious kind...again, inches are of no consequence in this context
i also understand that honest mistakes can be made...a good bud of mine drew his once in lifetime rocky tag a couple years ago. he is a very fit and able hunter, but the 12k+ altitude was eating him up pretty bad...after 7 days up there on the backpack expedition, he killed what he thought was a beautiful 9 year old ram...turns out the thing was 7, but had two pretty dark false annuli in what would appear to be likely places
he's not the kind to lament over what has already been done, and he was obviously thrilled with the ram in general, but he was also definitely disappointed at having been fooled, and pulling the trigger on that youngish dude...regardless of all them inches (179+) on his partially broomed horns
"Ah hell!" he told me, "...I probably wouldn't have shot him even if I had thought he was 8! I'd have kept suffering up there till the last of it, maybe try to kill one of them old, worn 170 type rams we seen before....hell, even eaten the tag if I'd had to!"
and in this philosophy, i supported him 100%
we'll just have to disagree on this one, Little Bighorn my friend
and yes, sorry for the 'jacking as well Predator!
Zeke
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ibhunting, Excellent ram and he looks OLD. I would not pass him up in almost any Ut unit. I don't know what yours scores but he's a keeper for sure.
littlebighorn, I do have a young bighorn in my collection and glad to have him. He was the only ram killed in that unit during the year. The 3 resident hunters couldn't find a ram at all. The F&G flew the unit twice and didn't find a ram!
greatwestern, I almost always agree with what you write. This is one time that I would temper the "big, old ram or bust" mentality (easy for me to say since littlebighorn ratted me out for my little bighorn, lol). Times are a little different than when a sheep tag came with every Idaho combination license! I do agree that a hunter should do everything in his power to find a class IV ram. But.....
Predator, Draw the tag and I'll tell you where the rams will be and when they will be there. LOL.
Really though....... I can tell you all I know about the unit after you draw. It's not a "sleeper, hi-odds" unit but it is a little underrated.
Zeke
littlebighorn, I do have a young bighorn in my collection and glad to have him. He was the only ram killed in that unit during the year. The 3 resident hunters couldn't find a ram at all. The F&G flew the unit twice and didn't find a ram!
greatwestern, I almost always agree with what you write. This is one time that I would temper the "big, old ram or bust" mentality (easy for me to say since littlebighorn ratted me out for my little bighorn, lol). Times are a little different than when a sheep tag came with every Idaho combination license! I do agree that a hunter should do everything in his power to find a class IV ram. But.....
Predator, Draw the tag and I'll tell you where the rams will be and when they will be there. LOL.
Really though....... I can tell you all I know about the unit after you draw. It's not a "sleeper, hi-odds" unit but it is a little underrated.
Zeke
bowhunt
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-11 AT 05:29PM (MST)[p]Zeke
Your eyes are worn out. That Ram is 146 5/8.
Greatwest.
I feel sad for your friend, whom after a great hunt, felt disappointed by shooting a Ram that was only 7.
The true scarcity of these tremendous animals, in my opinion, makes the pursuit something special, and the harvest of ANY Sheep a success that can be remembered and appreciated forever.
5 years old 7 years old 12 years old, it does not matter.
Your eyes are worn out. That Ram is 146 5/8.
Greatwest.
I feel sad for your friend, whom after a great hunt, felt disappointed by shooting a Ram that was only 7.
The true scarcity of these tremendous animals, in my opinion, makes the pursuit something special, and the harvest of ANY Sheep a success that can be remembered and appreciated forever.
5 years old 7 years old 12 years old, it does not matter.
greatwestern
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oh golly...good lord
Zeke
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ibhunting,
The F&G rough scores but they get pretty close to the real score. He's about 1 2/8" bigger than mine (plus 2 years since yours is 12.5 yrs old)
GREAT lookin' old ram!!! Very typical of a Lockhart upper-end ram.
Well.... I won the contest since I was a couple eigths closer than Mike.
greatwestern,
I understand your point of view. Yours is a view which I almost embrace. It's biologically sound in herds with more "open" hunting seasons. In very "limited" units it makes little or no difference to the herd health. I don't expect to change your mind and we're simply back to our own paradigm.
Best regards,
Zeke
The F&G rough scores but they get pretty close to the real score. He's about 1 2/8" bigger than mine (plus 2 years since yours is 12.5 yrs old)
GREAT lookin' old ram!!! Very typical of a Lockhart upper-end ram.
Well.... I won the contest since I was a couple eigths closer than Mike.
greatwestern,
I understand your point of view. Yours is a view which I almost embrace. It's biologically sound in herds with more "open" hunting seasons. In very "limited" units it makes little or no difference to the herd health. I don't expect to change your mind and we're simply back to our own paradigm.
Best regards,
Zeke
greatwestern
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-11 AT 09:59AM (MST)[p]Beautiful old Hammer IBHuntin! excellent job man, and thanks for showin him off!
Zeke, very good point about the extremely limited hunt units...does sneaking a young dude out of them places really make a negative difference? probably not, a couple or few times anyway...but year in, year out? quite possibly, yes
your ram from this unit was 10.5? how many young dudes bit the dust to keep that average down at 5.5?
the fundamental pinciple of modern trophy ram hunting is that we ought to work down from the very top of the age classes...ideally, we would knock off them old dudes as close to what would likely be the end of their natural lives anyway...the rams out there dying of old age are exactly the animals that should be taken by hunters. Let young animals grow up and contribute their unique signature to their race; let the old ones on their way out be spared the ravages of a 'natural' death, and their magnificent battle gear kept from being lost to the wilds to be ground by time back to dust
here's about as pretty a ram as anyone would likely imagine
Shooter? why, or why not?
Anyway, cheers everyone
**edit of my above post "...old, worn MID 170 type rams"
Zeke, very good point about the extremely limited hunt units...does sneaking a young dude out of them places really make a negative difference? probably not, a couple or few times anyway...but year in, year out? quite possibly, yes
your ram from this unit was 10.5? how many young dudes bit the dust to keep that average down at 5.5?
the fundamental pinciple of modern trophy ram hunting is that we ought to work down from the very top of the age classes...ideally, we would knock off them old dudes as close to what would likely be the end of their natural lives anyway...the rams out there dying of old age are exactly the animals that should be taken by hunters. Let young animals grow up and contribute their unique signature to their race; let the old ones on their way out be spared the ravages of a 'natural' death, and their magnificent battle gear kept from being lost to the wilds to be ground by time back to dust
here's about as pretty a ram as anyone would likely imagine
Shooter? why, or why not?
Anyway, cheers everyone
**edit of my above post "...old, worn MID 170 type rams"
Zeke
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I don't think the average age in the unit was 5.5 when I hunted teh Lockhart. It couldn't have been since I was in on both rams killed that year. It was about 9 av for that year. However, I definately see your point about the average age at 5.5 which means someone shot a 2.5 year old boy (possibly) at some point.
Ut did have a 144" or 7.5 year old as the minimum standard for many many years. I don't remember exactly when they went to the "any ram" regulations.
I do agree that if the herd has a huntable population, then there should be a huntable number of class IV rams. These are the rams which SHOULD be harvested ..... if possible, regardless of score.
Again, our thinking is not all that different. I just don't take quite the hard-line on the "old ram or bust" philosophy.
The ram in the pics looks to be 6 or 7 years old to me, some brooming, well below the jaw and curls above the nose. His body looks good and round, not too swayed in the back, full butt etc. Good ram but not one of the "old dudes". I would need more info about the where, when, why etc before I would pull the trigger.
Ok, tell us what he is.
Respectfully,
Zeke
Ut did have a 144" or 7.5 year old as the minimum standard for many many years. I don't remember exactly when they went to the "any ram" regulations.
I do agree that if the herd has a huntable population, then there should be a huntable number of class IV rams. These are the rams which SHOULD be harvested ..... if possible, regardless of score.
Again, our thinking is not all that different. I just don't take quite the hard-line on the "old ram or bust" philosophy.
The ram in the pics looks to be 6 or 7 years old to me, some brooming, well below the jaw and curls above the nose. His body looks good and round, not too swayed in the back, full butt etc. Good ram but not one of the "old dudes". I would need more info about the where, when, why etc before I would pull the trigger.
Ok, tell us what he is.
Respectfully,
Zeke
bowhunt
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-11 AT 10:47AM (MST)[p]Oh my ##$% Great Western,
Your diatribe has hints of an early Poe, or Dickinson.
"the fundamental pinciple of modern trophy ram hunting is that we ought to work down from the very top of the age classes"
I am assuming you came up with that, or did you find it in the Sheep Hunting Bible? LOL.
You are my kind of guy! I do agree with much you say, too bad it cannot be applied cleanly to all situation...it is beautiful and spoken with confidence that is for sure. NICE!
Your diatribe has hints of an early Poe, or Dickinson.
"the fundamental pinciple of modern trophy ram hunting is that we ought to work down from the very top of the age classes"
I am assuming you came up with that, or did you find it in the Sheep Hunting Bible? LOL.
You are my kind of guy! I do agree with much you say, too bad it cannot be applied cleanly to all situation...it is beautiful and spoken with confidence that is for sure. NICE!
M
mesquitehunter
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I'm going to have to agree with GW on the age class thought. I think it's despicable that a particular unit in any state has an average of 5.3 years of age harvested. That's an example of novice sheep hunters getting impatient It's pretty easy to tell a 5.3 year old ram compared to a 8-9+ ram. I'm sure just about every unit in any state has a ram over 5 years old. Maybe on the last day of season and I've looked at every ram in the unit I may consider shooting a six year old ram.
Any true blue sheep hunter/nut/enthusiast would rather kill a 10 year old 150 ram over a 5.5 year old 160 ram. Because score has nothing to do when it comes to a true blue sheep hunter/nut/enthusiast it's all about age.
I've been watching a desert ram for two years that is about 40" long but he's only 7 years old. Right now he's pushing 180" and one of the biggest rams in this particular unit in AZ. Even if I had a tag or I had a client in this unit I would not try and kill him. I would would pursue some of the older rams that are gonna die in a year or two and what ever one scores is what he scores. I'd really like the look of a broomed ram over a ripply sickle horn with lamb tips.
Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
Any true blue sheep hunter/nut/enthusiast would rather kill a 10 year old 150 ram over a 5.5 year old 160 ram. Because score has nothing to do when it comes to a true blue sheep hunter/nut/enthusiast it's all about age.
I've been watching a desert ram for two years that is about 40" long but he's only 7 years old. Right now he's pushing 180" and one of the biggest rams in this particular unit in AZ. Even if I had a tag or I had a client in this unit I would not try and kill him. I would would pursue some of the older rams that are gonna die in a year or two and what ever one scores is what he scores. I'd really like the look of a broomed ram over a ripply sickle horn with lamb tips.
Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
Zeke
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mesq
Really though, how many hunters with sheep tags are actually true blue, dyed in the wool sheep hunters? Let me help you out here, DAMN FEW.
Most sheep hunters will only have 1 sheep tag EVER.
It takes a few sheep hunts before a guy can call himself a sheep hunter. IMHO
It sounds like you do some guiding. Good for you. You have a MUCH higher level of knowkledge than most (almost all) tag holders. Would you ever consider listening to what your clients want or do you just assume they want to do what you tell them to do?
You even gave yourself an out. "maybe on the last day...."
Never, always etc are hard words to follow. ie; I will never shoot a 6 year old ram. If that's your position then good for you but that's not what you said.
I do applaud your conviction but not everyone has your same level of experience. They might actually think a 5 yr old is a great ram. So where do we go from here?
Even though I agree with you in theory, in the real world it's hard to stick with hard and fast rules.
Respectfully,
Zeke
Really though, how many hunters with sheep tags are actually true blue, dyed in the wool sheep hunters? Let me help you out here, DAMN FEW.
Most sheep hunters will only have 1 sheep tag EVER.
It takes a few sheep hunts before a guy can call himself a sheep hunter. IMHO
It sounds like you do some guiding. Good for you. You have a MUCH higher level of knowkledge than most (almost all) tag holders. Would you ever consider listening to what your clients want or do you just assume they want to do what you tell them to do?
You even gave yourself an out. "maybe on the last day...."
Never, always etc are hard words to follow. ie; I will never shoot a 6 year old ram. If that's your position then good for you but that's not what you said.
I do applaud your conviction but not everyone has your same level of experience. They might actually think a 5 yr old is a great ram. So where do we go from here?
Even though I agree with you in theory, in the real world it's hard to stick with hard and fast rules.
Respectfully,
Zeke
bowhunt
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-11 AT 02:06PM (MST)[p]I agree also, if you can hunt and kill that old Ram GREAT, and we should.
But...if someone is happy with a younger Ram, kills it on the first day, the last day, or any day in between, then good for them.
Some of our Utah units are on the down swing, disease has killed many sheep. The only Rams a guy can find are 5 years old. I am not too wound up about someone shooting one.
Not sure what the deal is on the Lockhart unit??? Looks like there has been 2 tags for many years, with the age of Ram fairly low.
The Ram I shot this year was aged at 9.5 by the Utah Fish and Game, and one of the premier Utah sheep guides. However others have him at 8.5 years.
To be honest with you, I would have shot him if I thought he was 6.5 years old.
But...if someone is happy with a younger Ram, kills it on the first day, the last day, or any day in between, then good for them.
Some of our Utah units are on the down swing, disease has killed many sheep. The only Rams a guy can find are 5 years old. I am not too wound up about someone shooting one.
Not sure what the deal is on the Lockhart unit??? Looks like there has been 2 tags for many years, with the age of Ram fairly low.
The Ram I shot this year was aged at 9.5 by the Utah Fish and Game, and one of the premier Utah sheep guides. However others have him at 8.5 years.
To be honest with you, I would have shot him if I thought he was 6.5 years old.
greatwestern
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-11 AT 03:35PM (MST)[p]Hmmmm...i didn't really intend to start an argument
it is interesting that some seem to have been put on the defensive by my inquiry about this ridiculous 5 year old average...i said NOTHING personal about ANYONE, just so that's clear
Yes Zeke, mesquitehunter has done 'some' guiding you could say, and he knows exactly what he's talking about. I wouldn't recommend jumping on him with the claws out like that, anyway
say, what was the average age of rams your hunters killed last year MH? i'm pretty sure it was 10.5 for 3 desert hammers going 169, 177, and 184...the big dude beat the unit RECORD by almost 30 inches; the 177 is part of a new trend mesquite and his brother have started in that unit with rams the last 3-4 years averaging mid 70's, the unit average prior to that was in the 150's; the 'little guy' at 169+ beat the unit average by over 18 inches....
and all them inches are just dandy, but you know what's a lot more impressive? all them growth rings...yessir, any time, any place
i really don't know what to make of Bowhunt's seemingly snide comment? poe and dickens? sheep bibles?? i have no idea what the heck you're talkin about guy, but if i recall correctly, you're the one that made the inference the there is no difference between killing a 5 or a 12 year old ram??? ya ok, right on
Anyway, based on some of the responses, i guess the picture is pretty clear as to why that unit suffers a low class III harvest average...and like i said, its a damn shame
it is interesting that some seem to have been put on the defensive by my inquiry about this ridiculous 5 year old average...i said NOTHING personal about ANYONE, just so that's clear
Yes Zeke, mesquitehunter has done 'some' guiding you could say, and he knows exactly what he's talking about. I wouldn't recommend jumping on him with the claws out like that, anyway
say, what was the average age of rams your hunters killed last year MH? i'm pretty sure it was 10.5 for 3 desert hammers going 169, 177, and 184...the big dude beat the unit RECORD by almost 30 inches; the 177 is part of a new trend mesquite and his brother have started in that unit with rams the last 3-4 years averaging mid 70's, the unit average prior to that was in the 150's; the 'little guy' at 169+ beat the unit average by over 18 inches....
and all them inches are just dandy, but you know what's a lot more impressive? all them growth rings...yessir, any time, any place
i really don't know what to make of Bowhunt's seemingly snide comment? poe and dickens? sheep bibles?? i have no idea what the heck you're talkin about guy, but if i recall correctly, you're the one that made the inference the there is no difference between killing a 5 or a 12 year old ram??? ya ok, right on
Anyway, based on some of the responses, i guess the picture is pretty clear as to why that unit suffers a low class III harvest average...and like i said, its a damn shame
bowhunt
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You have your quotes a little wrong.
I said "I agree"
I also said, a guy should be able to hunt hard and shoot what he is happy with.
I actually don't think you have any idea why the average is a 5 year old Ram. But you have a notion that your holding onto.
I have not felt like you started an argument, and Zeke certainly did not "have claws out"
You just simply cannot apply your thinking to every situation.
No offense taken, and certainly none meant.
I said "I agree"
I also said, a guy should be able to hunt hard and shoot what he is happy with.
I actually don't think you have any idea why the average is a 5 year old Ram. But you have a notion that your holding onto.
I have not felt like you started an argument, and Zeke certainly did not "have claws out"
You just simply cannot apply your thinking to every situation.
No offense taken, and certainly none meant.
Zeke
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Whoa there greatwestern you and I agree on darn near everything so let's not drive the wedge now.
As for jumpin on mesq, that's not what I though I was doing. Hell, how do I know how much guiding he's done. He's not pulled the ole "don't you know who I am?" card yet. LOL
I respect a good guide who shows good rams to his clients! Good for him.... really, when I say good for him I mean it!
We've all gotten a little pissy at times but I didn't think this was one of those times... at least not for me.
Where should we go from here? Mandatory aging? Mandatory score? Everyone has tried it and I really don't know why it was abandoned. More education would help no matter what. Here in Ut I think they did away with the MANDATORY orientation course. Too bad.
Anyhoo, we've now officially hijacked the post with our opinions.
Zeke
As for jumpin on mesq, that's not what I though I was doing. Hell, how do I know how much guiding he's done. He's not pulled the ole "don't you know who I am?" card yet. LOL
I respect a good guide who shows good rams to his clients! Good for him.... really, when I say good for him I mean it!
We've all gotten a little pissy at times but I didn't think this was one of those times... at least not for me.
Where should we go from here? Mandatory aging? Mandatory score? Everyone has tried it and I really don't know why it was abandoned. More education would help no matter what. Here in Ut I think they did away with the MANDATORY orientation course. Too bad.
Anyhoo, we've now officially hijacked the post with our opinions.
Zeke
greatwestern
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-11 AT 04:02PM (MST)[p]quotes? i did not use any quotes
here's a quote for ya:
"5 years old 7 years old 12 years old, it does not matter"
but i must have missed your "I agree" quote...quite sorry
and you're right, i do not know why exactly that average is so young, that is precisely why i asked....but based on some of the feedback, i'd say i was formulating an idea, ain't quite a 'notion' yet buddy
here's a quote for ya:
"5 years old 7 years old 12 years old, it does not matter"
but i must have missed your "I agree" quote...quite sorry
and you're right, i do not know why exactly that average is so young, that is precisely why i asked....but based on some of the feedback, i'd say i was formulating an idea, ain't quite a 'notion' yet buddy
greatwestern
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-11 AT 08:13PM (MST)[p]Nah, no worries Zeke, i am sorry for misunderstanding...i thought your post seemed a little barbed
my good brother T-Rex ain't the kind of dude to holler on his own horn, which is why i did it for him
No, mandates are often well intended, but the reason they've largely been abandon is because too many 'borderline' rams end up gettin killed and left because they fall short of whatever the arbitrary criteria
the way forward? i described it on another topic...any successful applicant would be required to pass what could be considered a "sheep Ed" type course before finally being awarded the actual lisence to hunt (it sounds like utah had something like this before?)...or be required to hire a licensed outfitter who's passed the final examinations with flying colors
i wonder how many sheep biologists, guides, or dedicated hunters would disagree with me on this, eh?
Anyway, Cheers
my good brother T-Rex ain't the kind of dude to holler on his own horn, which is why i did it for him
No, mandates are often well intended, but the reason they've largely been abandon is because too many 'borderline' rams end up gettin killed and left because they fall short of whatever the arbitrary criteria
the way forward? i described it on another topic...any successful applicant would be required to pass what could be considered a "sheep Ed" type course before finally being awarded the actual lisence to hunt (it sounds like utah had something like this before?)...or be required to hire a licensed outfitter who's passed the final examinations with flying colors
i wonder how many sheep biologists, guides, or dedicated hunters would disagree with me on this, eh?
Anyway, Cheers
bowhunt
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-11 AT 04:27PM (MST)[p]Ok, I looked back and my post was kinda snotty...
I really have been trying to say: I AGREE!
We should harvest the oldest Rams!
But, I just don't think it is that big of a deal if a guy shoots what he wants, and most importantly is happy with it.
I think happy hunters keep coming back, get involved, get the kids involved, and generally make a difference.
So GreatWestern, I apologize.
Best Regards
p.s.
Go look at the photo of the Ram I posted, and give me your thoughts on him.
I really have been trying to say: I AGREE!
We should harvest the oldest Rams!
But, I just don't think it is that big of a deal if a guy shoots what he wants, and most importantly is happy with it.
I think happy hunters keep coming back, get involved, get the kids involved, and generally make a difference.
So GreatWestern, I apologize.
Best Regards
p.s.
Go look at the photo of the Ram I posted, and give me your thoughts on him.
Zeke
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I too think size/age mandates are hard to enforce.
We agree that a mandatory orientation/training is a fantastic idea.
Over the years I've been to the Nevada and Utah training several times (how do you think I got so damn smart? LOL). The aging and scoring course in NV is excellent!
I think Ut abandoned the "mandatory" orientation course. Too bad.
Good luck on your project. I for one would be a huge supporter. There's no such thing as too much information about wild sheep.
Best wishes,
Zeke
We agree that a mandatory orientation/training is a fantastic idea.
Over the years I've been to the Nevada and Utah training several times (how do you think I got so damn smart? LOL). The aging and scoring course in NV is excellent!
I think Ut abandoned the "mandatory" orientation course. Too bad.
Good luck on your project. I for one would be a huge supporter. There's no such thing as too much information about wild sheep.
Best wishes,
Zeke
M
mesquitehunter
Guest
Unit averages don't mean anything. Such as in this case with the unit average being 5.3 years old. When people pay attention to unit averages they tend to go with the status quo.
EXAMPLE, I have hunted sheep in units that anybody who knew something about sheep would tell a hunter "shoot the first 160 ram you see because the rams in there have small bases" The result many times is most hunters shoot the first ram that they think is 160 but he's a five year old ram that doesn't score 160 because he/she failed to give the unit serious effort. That was the story for 44bn in AZ until about the mid 2000's. We probed the unit further and deeper and found low to mid 170's rams that were in the 9+ age class.
A couple of years ago I assisted on harvesting a low 150's ram that was twelve years old. We passed over 30 different rams in the low 150's that were under six years old. We didn't get impatient. I also made it very clear to my client and continue to do so every year with my other clients that I will have no part of shooting a class three or younger ram. If they don't like that then they can go somewhere else. But that's why folks hire us because they don't want to kill a juvenile ram.
Perhaps in some cases such as the KOFA's shooting a five year old ram may be acceptable because that might be all there's left after the lions continue to annihilate them.
Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
EXAMPLE, I have hunted sheep in units that anybody who knew something about sheep would tell a hunter "shoot the first 160 ram you see because the rams in there have small bases" The result many times is most hunters shoot the first ram that they think is 160 but he's a five year old ram that doesn't score 160 because he/she failed to give the unit serious effort. That was the story for 44bn in AZ until about the mid 2000's. We probed the unit further and deeper and found low to mid 170's rams that were in the 9+ age class.
A couple of years ago I assisted on harvesting a low 150's ram that was twelve years old. We passed over 30 different rams in the low 150's that were under six years old. We didn't get impatient. I also made it very clear to my client and continue to do so every year with my other clients that I will have no part of shooting a class three or younger ram. If they don't like that then they can go somewhere else. But that's why folks hire us because they don't want to kill a juvenile ram.
Perhaps in some cases such as the KOFA's shooting a five year old ram may be acceptable because that might be all there's left after the lions continue to annihilate them.
Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
M
mesquitehunter
Guest
Hey Zeke this is what I typed "Maybe on the last day of season and I've looked at every ram in the unit I may consider shooting a six year old ram. I case you didn't knotice but I put LOOKED AT EVERY RAM IN THE UNIT
"Never, always etc are hard words to follow. ie; I will never shoot a 6 year old ram. If that's your position then good for you but that's not what you said." HUH???? WTF are you talking about???
Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
"Never, always etc are hard words to follow. ie; I will never shoot a 6 year old ram. If that's your position then good for you but that's not what you said." HUH???? WTF are you talking about???
Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
PleaseDear
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Well LP-----
See what you've gone a started now!
Robb
See what you've gone a started now!
Robb
Zeke
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Mesq
You're right!
So.... where do we go from here?
The average tag holder will never have the knowledge, skill and experience that you have. He won't be a true blue, dyed in the wool sheep nut. He will be that desperate novice that you spoke about. This will probably be his one and only sheep hunt.... ever!
Lets look at a fictional scenario:
Lets say he has 2 weeks vacation and is not flush with dough to hire a good guide so he hunts with his buddies (also not sheep nuts).
He's into the hunt 12 or 13 days and finally finds a class III ram. He has seen sheep, about every other day but he's not found a class IV (hell, he doesn't even know what a class IV ram is).
He's doing the best he can but this is all he can turn up with his once-in-a-lifetime tag burning a hole in his pocket.
What does he do? What should he do? How do we expect him to know what to do? Remember, he has not been on the sheep hunts that we have.
Greatwestern hit the ball out of the park! EDUCATION before the tag is issued is the key.
I'm not trying to be pissy, just taking a look at what the average sheep hunter would actually encounter.
Best of luck in the coming seasons,
Zeke
PS: What's happening with the Aravaipa herd? I used to hunt the fringe of the unit and see BIG rams on occasion.
You're right!
So.... where do we go from here?
The average tag holder will never have the knowledge, skill and experience that you have. He won't be a true blue, dyed in the wool sheep nut. He will be that desperate novice that you spoke about. This will probably be his one and only sheep hunt.... ever!
Lets look at a fictional scenario:
Lets say he has 2 weeks vacation and is not flush with dough to hire a good guide so he hunts with his buddies (also not sheep nuts).
He's into the hunt 12 or 13 days and finally finds a class III ram. He has seen sheep, about every other day but he's not found a class IV (hell, he doesn't even know what a class IV ram is).
He's doing the best he can but this is all he can turn up with his once-in-a-lifetime tag burning a hole in his pocket.
What does he do? What should he do? How do we expect him to know what to do? Remember, he has not been on the sheep hunts that we have.
Greatwestern hit the ball out of the park! EDUCATION before the tag is issued is the key.
I'm not trying to be pissy, just taking a look at what the average sheep hunter would actually encounter.
Best of luck in the coming seasons,
Zeke
PS: What's happening with the Aravaipa herd? I used to hunt the fringe of the unit and see BIG rams on occasion.
M
mesquitehunter
Guest
Zeke, I see your point. And due to the cicumstances he's faced with maybe he should kill it.
It's almost a shame since the draw odds are so slim that most folks don't even plan on drawing a sheep tag when they apply and when they do get a tag they're caught off guard. Can't get the time off from work much less afford any time off. They're maxxed out in credit card debt, got a 2nd mortgage on a over inflated house and several car payments maybe even a toy hauler,a boat and some quads eating up the rest of the monthly income. So in that case they can't afford a guide and can only hunt just a few days at a time.
I ask myself "Why even bother applying for a OIL tag if I'm only gonna hunt this hunt half assed"
I ask a good friend of mine one time "Tony, why don't you apply for sheep?" He repied
"because sheep aren't that big of a deal in my life and if I drew a tag I'd be stealing it from somebody who really wanted one and would give 110% toward the hunt."
Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
It's almost a shame since the draw odds are so slim that most folks don't even plan on drawing a sheep tag when they apply and when they do get a tag they're caught off guard. Can't get the time off from work much less afford any time off. They're maxxed out in credit card debt, got a 2nd mortgage on a over inflated house and several car payments maybe even a toy hauler,a boat and some quads eating up the rest of the monthly income. So in that case they can't afford a guide and can only hunt just a few days at a time.
I ask myself "Why even bother applying for a OIL tag if I'm only gonna hunt this hunt half assed"
I ask a good friend of mine one time "Tony, why don't you apply for sheep?" He repied
"because sheep aren't that big of a deal in my life and if I drew a tag I'd be stealing it from somebody who really wanted one and would give 110% toward the hunt."
Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
littlebighorn
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Since our "little" age discussion has totally taken over Pred's innocent inquiry, I will throw my cap in the ring one more time.
I think basically we are all pretty much on the same sideline. We are "sheep lovers" who are in agreement that it would be ideal for all sheep herds to have the oldest rams harvested first. And you are right mesquite! Any sheep guide worth his salt stained hat should do everything he can to hog-tie a "ring-stacked" ram for his client!
The outfit I hunted Dalls with this fall would take your bullets away if you even thought of shooting a ram under 8. Even if it was tipped out and ripped. That is why they have a top-notch hunting concession! (Arctic Red River Outfitters).
But the reality of most lower 48 sheep hunters is that they are like your friend Tony...only they still want their one shot at a sheep. And they don't have the money to hire someone like you and they have no clue how to age a ram. (even when he is on the ground).
But when they work hard, do their best, and smack a "sub-average" ram, I refuse to diminish their "once in a lifetime experience".
So Pred, go for a sheep tag---with all you got girl! You now know 4 or 5 old fanatics who will gladly help you find a ripe, old ram, when you hit the jackpot!!
I think basically we are all pretty much on the same sideline. We are "sheep lovers" who are in agreement that it would be ideal for all sheep herds to have the oldest rams harvested first. And you are right mesquite! Any sheep guide worth his salt stained hat should do everything he can to hog-tie a "ring-stacked" ram for his client!
The outfit I hunted Dalls with this fall would take your bullets away if you even thought of shooting a ram under 8. Even if it was tipped out and ripped. That is why they have a top-notch hunting concession! (Arctic Red River Outfitters).
But the reality of most lower 48 sheep hunters is that they are like your friend Tony...only they still want their one shot at a sheep. And they don't have the money to hire someone like you and they have no clue how to age a ram. (even when he is on the ground).
But when they work hard, do their best, and smack a "sub-average" ram, I refuse to diminish their "once in a lifetime experience".
So Pred, go for a sheep tag---with all you got girl! You now know 4 or 5 old fanatics who will gladly help you find a ripe, old ram, when you hit the jackpot!!
greatwestern
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-11 AT 01:01AM (MST)[p]'no clue how to age a ram...but work hard to do their best, and smack a sub-average ram'
again, we are not talking about inches...and a 'sub-average' ram in this context is a class II individual!
how can you possibly recommend that?
this is quite obviously becoming a pointless discussion, for me anyway...pretty disappointed to have started it
so yeah, y'all go 'smack' whatever the hell ya want to...respect to the dang sheep be damned!
remind you of anyone t-rex?
"ennngg... well, is he a boone and crockett??? i kinda wanted a boone and crockett, eennnggg..."
NO CLUE is right, and it is compromising our invaluable collective sheep resource in an circumstance like this
now, do ya wanna talk about 'myopic'? on ALL levels?
like i said before, ridiculous! but then, i ain't got no 'real world' experience...shoot, everything i've said on here is just romantic, idealist 'speculative conjecture' anyway
but yeah, we got all them old dudes 'hog-tied' out there in the corral...we let 'em out when we figure they're gettin 'ripe'
seriously, come off it Little Big Horn, or is this all just a fun little internet game to you?
ah hell, forget it...what a waste of time
my apologies again, Predator
again, we are not talking about inches...and a 'sub-average' ram in this context is a class II individual!
how can you possibly recommend that?
this is quite obviously becoming a pointless discussion, for me anyway...pretty disappointed to have started it
so yeah, y'all go 'smack' whatever the hell ya want to...respect to the dang sheep be damned!
remind you of anyone t-rex?
"ennngg... well, is he a boone and crockett??? i kinda wanted a boone and crockett, eennnggg..."
NO CLUE is right, and it is compromising our invaluable collective sheep resource in an circumstance like this
now, do ya wanna talk about 'myopic'? on ALL levels?
like i said before, ridiculous! but then, i ain't got no 'real world' experience...shoot, everything i've said on here is just romantic, idealist 'speculative conjecture' anyway
but yeah, we got all them old dudes 'hog-tied' out there in the corral...we let 'em out when we figure they're gettin 'ripe'
seriously, come off it Little Big Horn, or is this all just a fun little internet game to you?
ah hell, forget it...what a waste of time
my apologies again, Predator
Zeke
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Predator
Stay out of the way.... we'll take it from here! LOL
Oh, Oh, this was YOUR thread! Sorry BGF.
We really didn't plan to hijack your post but you really can see the passion. I know of few other hunter who will spend the time, effort and money like sheep hunters.
Those of us who have been around the sport for a few years really care about the resource. We care about each other too although it seems otherwise at times.
Zeke
Stay out of the way.... we'll take it from here! LOL
Oh, Oh, this was YOUR thread! Sorry BGF.
We really didn't plan to hijack your post but you really can see the passion. I know of few other hunter who will spend the time, effort and money like sheep hunters.
Those of us who have been around the sport for a few years really care about the resource. We care about each other too although it seems otherwise at times.
Zeke
littlebighorn
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Woah GW,
I sense some anger, but as I said, I think we are on the same team here!
I totally agree with you on what is "right" for sheep and their age of harvest.
I respect these animals much more than is obvious to you. And in that regard, I would never endorse taking a class 2 ram. "Sub-average" was a poor choice of words, when we are talking age.
Perhaps the best idea to come from this "waste of time" discussion, is that somehow we do need to promote educating sheep tag holders about the need to consider age. (worthy of a UFNAWS discussion)
So I am done commenting about this as well(Sorry Pred), and I was not trying to attack your obvious "real world" experience.
Fortunately everyone has a slightly different view of the world because none of us are in the exact same spot. "Internet game"? Ouch! (I think my hat just got stomped)Lol
I sense some anger, but as I said, I think we are on the same team here!
I totally agree with you on what is "right" for sheep and their age of harvest.
I respect these animals much more than is obvious to you. And in that regard, I would never endorse taking a class 2 ram. "Sub-average" was a poor choice of words, when we are talking age.
Perhaps the best idea to come from this "waste of time" discussion, is that somehow we do need to promote educating sheep tag holders about the need to consider age. (worthy of a UFNAWS discussion)
So I am done commenting about this as well(Sorry Pred), and I was not trying to attack your obvious "real world" experience.
Fortunately everyone has a slightly different view of the world because none of us are in the exact same spot. "Internet game"? Ouch! (I think my hat just got stomped)Lol
greatwestern
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Nah, not quite Zeke
i would like to apologize for losing my patience and flashin my teeth at LBH
i would also clarify that it is nothing personal whatsoever!
and yes, i agree that we need to stick together, and my arguments were in no way intended to incite a rift
hell, i was just blown away by that borderline class II/III harvest average and expressed my frustration with such
should have knowed it was gonna be such a can o' worms
anyway, peace... and cheers to all Friends of our Wild Sheep
i would like to apologize for losing my patience and flashin my teeth at LBH
i would also clarify that it is nothing personal whatsoever!
and yes, i agree that we need to stick together, and my arguments were in no way intended to incite a rift
hell, i was just blown away by that borderline class II/III harvest average and expressed my frustration with such
should have knowed it was gonna be such a can o' worms
anyway, peace... and cheers to all Friends of our Wild Sheep
littlebighorn
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XOXOXO!
