SFW Meeting - Officially Scheduled

G

grizzmoose

Very Active Member
Messages
1,023
Ok, I know people are getting sick of new threads about SFW. I apologize for one more. There have been 4-5 different threads that have mentioned the meeting. Here is the official scoop:

Date: March 25th, 2010
Time: 7:00pm
Place: 383 Colorow Drive, Salt Lake City, UT

This is up at the U of U in Research park. We have been asked to park in the upper parking lot. Dont worry, its free parking. The conference room is right inside the main doors. You can hit up Mapquest for the exact location.

Im still working on an agenda. Id like more suggestions please. Right now, these are the following items that have been suggested or implied:

1. Financial transparency!!!
2. Draw procedures for the Expo tags
3. SFW eligibility for Expo tags
4. Antelope Island hunting
5. How is SFW helping the blue collar hunter?

A couple other things that I'd like to add. . . I would like this to be as organized as possible. The donor of the venue has asked for a peaceful meeting. To keep as much order to this process as possible, I would ask that you all submit questions you would like addressed by SFW to me prior to the meeting. You can PM me your questions, or email them to me at:

[email protected].

Please keep in mind that this meeting is being held on private property. We have been invited to use this building free of charge, and we are expected to be on our best behavior. As to the duration of the meeting, WHO KNOWS!

We would like an idea as to how many people we can expect to come. If you are committing to coming, please respond to this thread. And please. . . lets keep this thread limited to confirmations of those attending, and SHORT descriptions of questions or agenda items.

Thank you all, and hope to see you there!
 
Travis-

Thank you very much for putting this together. I know it has been a headache but I (and other concerned sportsmen) appreciate your efforts. I will be there and I will email you my questions, even though I have already posted them on the forum several times.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I am planning to be there and will send you a question I would like addressed by the Don regarding the INSANE # of conservation/auction tags Utah gives out.

Thanks for setting this up - I hope this is a productive meeting and not more patting on the back for SFW.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-10 AT 06:51PM (MST)[p]I won't be there, sorry. I know that greatly disappoints the presenters but I will be out of town.

But if any of you are not gonna make it and would like to know how it went I can post it here today if you want because the answers and antics NEVER change.

Tony
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-10
>AT 06:51?PM (MST)
>
>I won't be there, sorry. I
>know that greatly disappoints the
>presenters but I will be
>out of town.
>
>But if any of you are
>not gonna make it and
>would like to know how
>it went I can post
>it here today if you
>want because the answers and
>antics NEVER change.
>
>Tony
+1
 
Don is the ultimate master as discussing the pro and dodging the cons. I would be willing to bet my farm on that, if I had one. Since I don't I would still be a good chunk of change.

Here are a few things you won't find out.

The real odds on the convention tags.

The true amount Don personally accepts each year in
consulting fees and his other miscellaneous fees he charges
in connection with his wildlife activities.

The real percentage of what hits the ground from
the amount SFW take in.

The real amount SFW takes in from their various endeavors.

The true payroll of SFW and who really gets what and how
much.

The true portion of expenditures made by SFW on wildlife
related projects. You will get the total in millions, but
in many cases the largest share is funded by the state
or federal government, but good ole SFW will take the credit.

The percent of money that goes into fixing the deer herd,
(where so many hunters could reap the benefit) versus
the amount that goes towards sheep (where so few can
benefit).

The glass you all wish for (transparency) will be a piece of cleverly camoed (no see through) rhetoric.

Don is a master at deceit (something done or said to mislead) so sharpen you skills or he will take you exactly where he wants you to go.

Good luck to all. I hope something doesn't come up at the last minute so he can't make the meeting. After all it was his idea wasn?t it.

Have a good one. BB
 
I'm a member of SFW. Sometimes a proud member and sometimes not however, when an organization volunteers to answer questions in a public forum, like SFW has, then I think it's only fair to allow them to do so. This meeting was requested by several who are NOT members and want answers to some very valid questions.

Tony - I have agreed on some of your points but even your agenda has become personal. It appears that your comments have more of a personal nature and vendeta than one of attaining answers and results. This is not the place to air the dirty laundry, so to speak. You can't possibly think that will benefit your cause. This last statement proves the childish nature of your comments. Of all people to show up and ask the PERTINENT questions I thought it would be someone like you. Instead, you and hoytme have chosen to take the low road. I've got absolutely no respect for that.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
They need the questions in advance? I don't like the sound of that. Too much opportunity for prep (spin) time and cherry picking the softball questions. It reminds me of a Larry King interview.

If this Don guy answers questions in person like he does on here, you guys are in for a long night and a world history lesson.
 
Well, I have not won the lottery yet, so looks like I won't be making the long trip from Oregon. would love to be there.

I have certainly given Don plenty of grief for a lot of this stuff over the past four years. However, I think he deserves respect for being willing to attend this meeting. Whether or not answers to the questions regarding financial transparency that many of us have been asking will be answered is unknow at this time. Given that the meeting is occurring, however, I would like to suggest that everyone hold off on the nasty comments, opinions that nothing will change, etc, and give the man a chance.

If, as many of you suspect, nothing changes, and the meeting is more beating the drum for SFW efforts without addressing the substantial issues that have been raised, there will be plenty of time to put the hammer down.

I am hopeful that one result of the meeting is that SFW management will recognize that the issues that have been raised are legitimate, and need to be addressed. I would also like to see UDFW at the meeting explaining their lack of transparency on some of these same issues, but that is likely to much to expect.

Thanks, Don, for agreeing to meet. I hope it is a productive meeting.

Scoutdog
 
I'm not necessarily defending them "Troy". You're a local boy. Are you going to be at the meeting? You talk like you've had some personal experience with these guys. I know you've been involved with other conservation orgs before and if you're the same person that many people think you are then you are the same person that tried to tell me Anis Aude knew what he was talking about before you saw the light on that one too. Transparency is a wonderful thing isn't it?


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Check the posts. I was attacked personally by Troy yet had not mentioned an individual at all.

Bull I KNOW things from being involved at the deepest level for nearly 5 years. I then dealt with them for another 5 years while with MDF, and I am dealing with them now nearly 2 years later on a different level.

The plot and story has not changed. I do not need to be bitten by a rat twice to know the rat bites, and that it hurts and that I might get rabies from it.

I know what the meeting will be like, and the low road you metion is the one you should be throwing at Troy for the personal things he said. Show me where I got personel before I was attacked with false allegations and half truths.

Trust me when I tell you your group is NOT what you think it is.

I know you want to believe but don't let someone continue to tell you the tooth fairy is real and believe it after about 4 years old.

I have been getting the tooth fairy thrown at me for 15 years and she is old, ugly, stinky, and false. Not only that she gives me less everytime but tells me I am getting more.

I don't need to hear anymore as I already have heard it Many MANY times before you or anyone else on this site. I am privey to a lot of things that all of you are not because of what positions I held for 10 years.

Wether you like it or not I kNOW more about how it all works then you do, I was the right hand man for 5 years. Don't you think I took notes?

I posted an idea how to hunt Antelope Island and Troy busted my balls over irrelevant and false things. I then called him out on it and he ran with his tail between his legs cause he KNOWS what I know and they don't want all of you knowing it.

Question my integrity and credibility all you want because it means nothing. I have an inbox FULL of people agreeing with me and wanting me to lead the charge to take back this state because they KNOW I KNOW how they operate.

I have voice mail after voice mali begging me to help counter all the BS that goes on in this state.




Go read how my idea transpired and it is obvious that Troy got personal not me.

Bro, don't piss down my back and tell me its raining when I know it is not.

That is all that is gonna come out of the meeting.

I invited them on my radio show to discuss things about the convention and they wont even respond. If everything was on the up why wouldn't they take the opportunity to talk to 18,000 sportsman in the state and plead their case?

Answer me that and you have then made the 1st step in recovering from your rat bite.

Tony
 
LMMFAO....apparently no one read this line....

" And please. . . lets keep this thread limited to confirmations of those attending, and SHORT descriptions of questions or agenda items."



great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-10 AT 01:51AM (MST)[p]Tony - I know you were on the inside for several years. I really don't want to know why you and a couple of conservation organizations went your separate ways. I'm not saying that things are not out of hand but if you expect me to believe that SFW shouldn't get a lot of credit for turning our big game hunting around then that's where I quite listening to you my friend. That's when I quite listening to all the whiners out there. I'll be the first one to say there should be some changes made. Do I think that SFW needs to go away? HELL NO! Who's going to fight for the hunting in Utah? You? hoytme? You've been out of the game for how long now? I think you've had plenty of time to make your mark. Go to the meeting and "lead us". If you are so interested in saving us from evil then why wouldn't you go to the meeting? My guess is it's probably the same reason SFW won't come on your radio show. If you have as many "followers" as you say you have then why don't you show up at the state legistlative sessions instead of organizing a shed hunt on antelope island? These are just some questions I have. Don't worry, I have posed several similar questions to Don so I'm not just picking on you. I just think the "back patters" need a reality check.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
>LMMFAO....apparently no one read this line....
>
>
>" And please. . . lets
>keep this thread limited to
>confirmations of those attending, and
>SHORT descriptions of questions or
>agenda items."
>
>
>
>great post/pic, thanks for sharing
>
>JB
>
497fc2397b939f19.jpg


I knew that line was going to be fruitless.
 
I am an outsider but the figures posted from SFW's 2007 Tax Return on another thread tell anyone all they need to know about the organization-13.5% of money goes to wildlife.The rest-who knows but I bet I can make a pretty good guess.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict right now the meeting/s will fall through.I hope not for you guys' sake.
 
>They need the questions in advance?
>I don't like the sound
>of that. Too much
>opportunity for prep (spin) time
>and cherry picking the softball
>questions. It reminds me
>of a Larry King interview.
>
>
>If this Don guy answers questions
>in person like he does
>on here, you guys are
>in for a long night
>and a world history lesson.
>

No, they have not asked for questions in advance. I am asking for them in advance, just so I can put an agenda together and get rid of redundant topics.
 
Once more, please dont turn this thread into another SFW ##### session. Post your confirmation of attendance, or go start your own thread.
 
Tony, if you aint gonna say anything about what you "KNOW", then what the hell good is knowing doing you? so you can sound important, and do nothing but bioch about the burden of knowing?

PRO, blow me..
 
Grizz,

I am not going to be there, I will be out of town.

But I do have a questions.

Would the SFW be open to a Full Accounting Audit, by a non-involved 3rd party Auditor.

I think I could arrange for 2-3 Accountants, that Audit a 5000 employee company, to get engaged.

It may just clear up a lot of stuff.
 
>Grizz,
>
>I am not going to be
>there, I will be out
>of town.
>
>But I do have a questions.
>
>
>Would the SFW be open to
>a Full Accounting Audit, by
>a non-involved 3rd party Auditor.
>
>
>I think I could arrange for
>2-3 Accountants, that Audit a
>5000 employee company, to get
>engaged.
>
>It may just clear up a
>lot of stuff.

Ill be happy to bring this up. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Ill be there. If this ends up being a me, myself and I meeting for Don or if he dodges questions and gives answers that are obviously BS I will be leaving and I think everyone else should too for him wasting our time. Im all for letting him say what he wants to say and give hem his fair time BUT im not going to sit there and listen to him try to talk above me and try to pull the wool over my eyes.
 
Don reminds me a lot of President Obama. He will use this meeting as a teaching moment. He will dodge the hard questions like Obama does. He will say he will be transparent like Obama does, but then he will brush it off and avoid it.
 
Why dont half of you look at the habitat projects that are posted online. Then get your lazy butts out there and see if they have been done. My gawd I would bet a hundred dollar bill elitehornhunter is driving his quad all over SFW reseeds looking for a piece of bone. Enough! Get some proof before running your mouth.
 
IsayNunya, can you send me 5, 20 dollar bills? I prefer cash. I would hate to try and cash a bad check.
 
Really? I am shocked Don would not do everything in his power to accomodate nonresidents by arranging a Webex. I would think he would relish the opportunity to field questions about the benefits of transforming 200 nonresident tags to raffle tags.

Go figure.
 
I have a question alot of people have said that alot of the habitat projects that they do are on private land and not on public land .If that is the case should'nt the money from the expo tags and banquet tags be to benefit public lands not someones private land it would be nice to see what the ratio is from private land to public land habitat projects going to try to be there.
 
Don agreed to do this meeting. It was not his idea. Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty. SFW has done a ton for our wildlife. If he is willing to come and answer questions then lets all hear what he has to say before we start "casting stones"

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
Jason,

You just cannot control yourself can ya?

I wont be there because I am traveling for work. I need to make money so I can buy an auction tag. lol

I have never said I am "opposed" to SFW???

I have said: Enough auction tags, Don't hunt AI.

I thought my suggestion of an independent audit was quite constructive actually! What a great thing if an auditor could say: Looks good to me.
 
Jason,

You just cannot control yourself can ya?

I wont be there because I am traveling for work. I need to make money so I can buy an auction tag. lol

I have never said I am "opposed" to SFW???

I have said: Enough auction tags, Don't hunt AI.

I thought my suggestion of an independent audit was quite constructive actually! What a great thing if an auditor could say: Looks good to me.
 
LOL! I guess not bowhunt. I wish you were going to be there it should be good. I was not only referring to your post it sounds like lots of anti-sfw guys will not be there. I am sure some of them have legit excuses and some of them just don't want to go. I believe you really have to work. Just earn enough to buy me an auction tag to! I would take one you know. We can call it a donation on your taxes. I don't guess Don will be passing out anymore free sheep hunts at "this meeting". The 10 he gave out at the full curl society meeting was awesome, but I have a strange feeling that he is going to come into this one with guns blazing. Not at his next grand slam but at these fellas that want to "expose" him. These guys better be prepared or I think Don will rip them apart. I am probably going to bring popcorn.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
I might show up just to sell popcorn and raise money for a future auction tag...how many bags ya think it would take??

~Z~
 
MTQuivers-

I have been fairly critical of SFW over the last year or two. Not because I am "anti-SFW" as you call it but because I think the public deserves answers to honest, legitimate questions. As I understand it, Don agreed to this meeting so that he could present his side and then provide answers to some lingering questions. Do I have my doubts as to whether Don will actually provide real answers to all of the questions? Yes. But I hope that he will show up in good faith and respond to questions that are presented respectfully and professionally. There may be some "SFW-Haters" in the crowd but the I predict the majority of those in attendance will be people just like me--concerned sportsmen who have been or currently are SFW members who want answers some basic questions. I think it would be a major mistake for Don to call this meeting and then show up on the attack with "guns blazing," as you predict. If he does, however, so be it. I don't those think those of us with questions are afraid to get ripped apart by Don Peay. This meeting will be an opportunity for SFW to resolve some longstanding concerns and convince some of us to come back into the fold or to confirm once and for all that it has no interest in truth, transparency and accountability.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
If I was in town I would be there 100%. But I will be out of the country which is a little hard to reschedule.

I have ask several times for simple numbers and clarification but have received nothing.

I even sent a personal email requesting information and offered all the time they wanted on my radio show and still not even a response.

I am a life member of MDF and can;t get a returned email from their President or COO.

I applaude you all for setting up this meeting and I have no reason to believe it won't happen, but I also have no reason to believe you will get any of the answers you are looking for.

Yes some good things have happened in this state but ALOT of questionable things have happened as well.

The direction of your meeting will head the way they want it to head. You will not get straight forward answers and you will not leave the meeting knowing anything more then you already know.

Here is the only question you need to ask and see what answer you get.........

Will you show us every dollar that you have raised and where every dollar has been spent?

See what response you get then. They are non profit and their books should be open to all.

Enjoy the "storytime" you are going to attend and I will be very very interested in how you all respond to it after you get it from their mouth.

Tony
 
>Wow, and here I thought he
>cared so much about nonresidents.
>

Im the one that scheduled the meeting, not Don. You must have missed how the whole thing came up. Im just a no-name hunter that thought a meeting would be better than griping on line. I cant please everyone with locations, webinars, or times. Sorry man.
 
I understand that Don was called to a meeting up at Browning due to Browning employees calling into questions the sponsorship of Browning to SFW. Don made a personal appearance up there to answer any and all questions from Browning employees and family members.

From how I gather the meeting went on, it was just as you Describe Tony....Everyone went away still scratching their heads...

This meeting will just be the same, Don will not be having the CFO of SFW (Mr. Byron Bateman) there to answer any of the money or financial questions. Don just wants to talk about Sheep, SHEEP, SHEEP!!!

97,000 of us will hunt deer this year,
ONLY 75 will be hunting sheep, according to (http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/info/2010-03-04.pdf).

If Deer are the main species that people are hunting year after year why is not more SFW conservation money allocated to helping Deer? Believe me one day I would love to kill a sheep in my home state, however not at the price of other big game animals taking it in the shorts.

my .02

Tall
 
fishon,
Back when you were in with SFW I asked the very same questions you ask today. You gave the same spin SFW still blows, and in so many words said if you weren't a believer you were less than intelligent.
Talk about a major 360...
For the record I have asked Don Peay a simple yes or no question on more than one occassion. He can't or won't give simple answers. My pet peeve with all this garbage is it's a public resource. Why do we have to beg for answers. It looks horrible and politcs as usual to me. I think they will ride hard until they end up in court. Then we will here the spill about were wasting money that could be in our, whoops..."on the ground!"
 
AMEN!!!!


"I think they will ride hard until they end up in court. Then we will here the spill about were wasting money that could be in our, whoops..."on the ground!"

LMAO!!!!


Tall
 
I haven't read every post about every SFW topic or even on this thread alone so forgive me if I am bringing up something that has already been brought up.

Why don't everyone on here griping about SFW stop spending money at the banquets, all get together, use it to hire a lawyer and take it to court? I am not 100% sure how things work but I would assume in court they would have to provide all financial records and it would be public record form there on. I have a feeling that until the financial records are shown to the hunting public that the bickering will never stop.
 
OK, I'll volunteer to be the tech guy.

I'll check into video conferencing and see if we can set it up. I'll bring my laptop and my video camera so that we can record the meeting for those that want to see it who aren't able to attend. I'm not sure about internet access (Grizz, can we get it?) but I'll do my best to make sure everyone who is able, and wants to, can see the meeting. Perhaps we can have a time set aside for questions that come in over the web.

All pending The Don's approval, of course.
 
The webcast would be awesome, it sounds like there are several sportsmen that would love to attend but won't be able to.

In the meantime, lets stop complaining... yall sound like a bunch of babies. Just get questions together that you want answered. Email them to grizzmoose, that way we don't have several of the same questions asked. Give Don a fair shake, he is willing to go to this meeting to answer questions about SFW.

If after the meeting your questions aren't answered and you still don't like it. Then complain... But it sounds to me like Don wants to try and do right by us. I think he knows that craps gonna hit the fan if he doesn't get something straitened out with the sportsmen.

I wish i could attend. I think it will be a good experience, and hopefully answer all of the questions we have for him, and where/why/how/who the money is being spent on...

If not, then the next step is taking it to the courts... In the meantime, if you are worried about SFW, the biggest impact you can make is by not supporting them. Don't go to their banquets, don't donate to them. If a large number of people do this, then they will have to listen to us...

Anywho, good luck with the meeting, wish I could be there...
----------------------------------------
Hoyt Katera XL
Spot Hogg Seven Deadly Pin
Fuse Acculaunch
Fuse Satori
G5 Matreo Strings
"I don't miss, I just don't hit him on purpose"
 
>OK, I'll volunteer to be the
>tech guy.
>
>I'll check into video conferencing and
>see if we can set
>it up. I'll bring
>my laptop and my video
>camera so that we can
>record the meeting for those
>that want to see it
>who aren't able to attend.
> I'm not sure about
>internet access (Grizz, can we
>get it?) but I'll do
>my best to make sure
>everyone who is able, and
>wants to, can see the
>meeting. Perhaps we can
>have a time set aside
>for questions that come in
>over the web.
>
>All pending The Don's approval, of
>course.


Thanks for volunteering. Ive made the requests of the building and of Don. Ill be in touch with you via PM.
 
Dryflyelk,
That would be great. I live in Oregon am very interested in how this shakes out.I have NR elk points, other than that I have no dog in this fight. As it has been said several time who gives a s#%% about NR's anyway.

I am looking at this subjectively, fromtthe 2 sides, either way I see some concerning issues.

At minimum why not ask for a review by your Department of Justice, or the district attorney's office in which the Utah Division of Wildlife Headquarters Office is located. Check the books as the auction tags belong to the state and the public, which is a pecuniary interest to the state and its public.

I hope every thing is on the up and up with SFW, it seems they are advocates for wildlife, but at what price, the average hunter, I don't know. I hadn't even heard of SFW until after the EXPO. Have a good day. JB
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-10 AT 02:58PM (MST)[p]I am providing the building to be used for this meeting. I believe I can provide web access, but need to check with my IT manager who is on vacation. If this is as simple as a web conection, we should be fine. I am happy to coordinate with the member who wishes to bring his laptop and camera. Please understand Grizz and I are just volunteers (we don't even know each other!) who have cooperated to get this meeting scheduled and provide a central location for this forum.

I suggested to Grizz early on that we get as many questions in writing, in advance, as possible. First, to keep the meeting orderly. Second, I would like to think Don would be better prepared to answer the questions if he knows many of them in advance. Saying "I don't know", or I'll get back to you", when you have seen the questions in advance is a lot harder. It was not my intention to limit the discussion, but rather to make the exchange more productive.

I'm personally on the fence about SFW, so hope to get real, hard data at this meeting, instead of PR spin. I may not be optomistic, but I am hopeful.

My own question to add to the list: Number of applicants for each hunt / tag in the expo draw. Don't just lump all the elk hunts together, for example. What were the odds for each choice on the application form. Past data would be great for trending analysis, but even this years data would be very appreciated.

Bill
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-10 AT 04:50PM (MST)[p]I'm wondering how we can demand a public audit. SFW needs to open their books and lay everything out on the table. There is no reason to have dirty little secrets. They need to come clean.

Tony, I think you're right. Don will avoid questions and use up a lot of time for "storytelling." He will dodge most questions because he doesn't want to reveal a lot of dirty little secrets that SFW has otherwise people would hang Don from a tree after the meeting was over.
 
I have not said they are being illegal with the convention money, I have said they are not showing transperacy with it and have not provided the information on the Convention permits that was agreed to when I was their helping get them awarded.

I have said if their is nothing to hide why does it appear things are being hidden?

If what is being done was approved by the vast majority rather then being questioned then there would be no issue.

The problem is NONE of the concerns or questions are being answered about a public resource that I helped take from the public draw.

Show us what we are entitled to know about a public resource and you will get a lot of credibility amongst sportsman.

Continue to hide it and dodge the questions and not show the transperacy and the audit and you will lose the cash cow of the convention permits.

Tony
 
You'd think since nonresidents contributed the extra $1,000,000 in raffle tags that created the expo they would be thanked and heartily welcomed by Don to his meeting, even if Don sprung for the few hundred bucks equipment rental himself.

Go figure.
 
>SAY IT WITH ME NOW!
>
>AUDIT....AUDIT.....AUDIT....
>
>
>:) :) :)

You mean O sh**t get the paper shredder!!!!
 
Hey guys;
For you guys who don't agree with Don;
A cool idea would be to keep your money, stay away from the banquets, band together and work against SFW by starting your own thing. See where that gets you. Who will be your leader? How long will it be before you all start bitching at "him" because you did't get YOUR tag?

For you who are all worried about the drawing odds;
KEEP YOUR MONEY IN YOUR WALLET! I didn't draw a tag either but I'm not out looking for a rope!

QUIT THE DAMNED WHINING!
You all sound like a bunch of school boys bitching about an ex-girlfriend. Move out and move on for hell's sake.

Those who think they "know too much" about SFW;
Who really cares? Really, who cares?

I, for one, will continue to support SFW for ALL the GOOD they do!

Love, Zeke

PS, Can you imagine the good we all could have done if this effort was spent on something productive????
 
First, a huge thank you to Grizzmoose and llamapacker for putting this together. Thanks guys. Hopefully, the video conference idea works out, I would certainly like to be able to listen in.

I also support having grizzmoose collect the questions in advance, and let Don know what is coming, so he can prepare. This should not be trap meeting, ie let's get Don to say something stupid. I think the vast majority of us just want to know that the 500+ tags are generating sbustnatial revenues, and that those revenues are being used to benefit wildlife.

My question to ask is this:

Don, would you use your influence with UDFW to get them to publsh the auction price received for each tag, how the money was split, and what projects were funded on an annual basis?

Thanks

Mike Morris
503-317-7576
[email protected]
 
Mike,

i believe much of the information you asked for is available from the UDWR. how much money is raised, where it goes. That is online, somewhere. SFW publishes a complete LIST of every project each year in our magazine. might be online as well, don't do the website, someone else does that.

EACH auction tag sales price is available and making it more easily available is a great idea, I will work to see that gets done.

Mike, the meeting will spell out how the number of limited entry and once in a lifetime permits has increased from about 1,000 to nearly 5,000. the money from these 500 permits, coupled with tens of millions in matching funds SFW has been very involved in obtaining, plus some great work by the DWR, landonwers, and BLM and FS are the reasons for the 5 fold incrases.

the 97,000 general deer hunters have also benefited, that data will be presented.

as has all the fish hatcheries being rebuilt and dramatic increases in turkey, elk, moose, goat, bison, antelope etc.

and, the quality of animals taken on both limited entry, once in a lifetime and general season tags is better.

and, the diversity of opportunities will be presented. There are nearly 35,000 general season elk tags for those who just want to kill something or get some meat. there are close to 2,800 limited tags, with various quality standards 5.5 to 6. year old bulls, 6-7 yar old bull units and 7.5 to 8. the vast majority of Utahs elk resource - some 35,000 tags a year is dedicated to recreation hunting. a small percentage of the resource is dedicated to the "rich" or "trophy" tag allocation. People who see the world as have empty can't see this, the data is obvious to those who see the world as half full.

At the meeting, SFW's accountant, a senior partner in a respected CPA frm, will report on his recent audit of SFW. In his opinion, for what SFW helps get accomplished our staff is understaffed and underpaid, compared to industry standards. He will also present his audit finding, teh SFW hatters will be disappointed, but come and hear his detailed audit findings.

The last 3 years of summary pages from the ANNUAL State Audit of Conservation Permit Expenditures will also be presented. SFW leads that effort with flying colors. Every conservation group is audited, every year and every transaction is reviewed.

Ryan Foutz will have some detailed information on the Expo, number of applicants, etc.

There will NOT be a lot of details on the Expo, that is a partnership with MDF. SFW and MDF are preparing a report to the DWR and the Wildlife Board which will be presented in a public meeting in April or May.

I will then show a powerpoint presentation - PICTURES - which are real, and cannot lie - are used to tell explain how the MAJOR deer and elk habitat restoration efforts were designed, engineered and implemented. It also will show fencing of Highways, underpasses built, transplants of bison, antelope, sheep, moose, goats, wild turkey.

It will also talk about cougar, coyote and bear hunting, and efforts to get wolves delisted and allow for states managment.

It will talk about Utah's shift towards quality on limited entry and once in a lifetime hunts and upgrades on quality general season hunts.

It will also have the DWR data on the number of LE and OIL tags from 1994 till today and the number of applicants.

the powerpoint presentation will also highlight some of the great accomplishments of SFW in otehr states.

Pictures are worth a thousand words, hope those who come enjoy them. and they will get their chance to dispute the claims.

It will also have some graphs provided by other state fish and game agencies that show all the negative impacts of wolves on elk and moose herds. Any enlightened sportsmen will drop the petty concerns and jump on board with this issue, because if wolves are not managed, forget the 5% tags, take a 90% reduction in populations and hunting.

It will also have a copy of a letter of recognition from teh Utah LEgislature about SFW's efforts for conservation, for helping the economy, for helping sportsmen and for helping our military folks. And then i will attempt to paint the picture as to why all of this matters. To many, it won't make sense. To most it will.

There will then be an opporutnity to ask any and all questions.

And then i will never be on MM again. It could be a great venue to share information, ideas, get input. However, in my opinion, it has become a place for toxic exchanges with people, who no matter what evidence is presented, they find something else to complain about. I will not participate in this destructive effort any more. if people want to email me, they will get responses. [email protected].

Founder, you asked for responses and help. I have done that for close to 20 years. I have spent a lot of time answering questions and have gone to lunch and got to know some great sportsmen from MM. SFW has done a lot to make things better for many species and all sportsmen. SFW has done some great charitable things for people in need.

However, When i see the deeply personal attacks you and others have made on some very good people, who work their guts out to make things better for all sportsmen, it makes me wonder.

My conclusion, NO more from me.

you crossed the line attacking Mike Styler, a very, very good man. the most avid sportsmen to ever occupy his position. A man who has helped increase funding by over $150 Million for sportsmen so there can be more elk, more deer, more sheep, better fisheries, more antelope, more turkey, more moose, more bison.

don
 
"There will not be a lot of details on the expo"

Isn't the expo and all of the publics permits the reason the whole SFW &%#tstorm started in the first place???

Kegs and kegs full of koolaid.

But I'll bet the "independent" audit and slideshow will be great






*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
Don Peay said: "There will not be a lot of details on the expo."

I am disappointed to hear that you will not be providing much information regarding the Expo. It is my understanding that you and others originally promised that information regarding the number of applications and the drawing odds for the Expo would be made public. I have never understood why SFW refuses to release the numbers.

Are you prepared to address the other issue regarding the Expo that I have posted several times over the last couple of years: Is there any statutory requirement that any of the monies generated from the sale of the 200 Convention Permits actually be used for conservation projects? I would certainly hope that you would be willing to at least answer this question at the meeting.

Don, I am looking forward to meeting with you, and I am trying to keep an open mind, but please live up to the committment you previously made. You asked for 45 minutes to present your side of the story with the remainder of the meeting to be a Q&A period. Based upon your prior post, it looks like your presention will take a lot longer than 45 minutes. To be frank, most of us are keenly aware of the positive things that SFW has done and is doing. We read about them in the Sportsmen's Voice, we read about them on the SFW website, we hear about them at banquets and we hear about them in your posts. I don't think many people would dispute that SFW has done some very good things. HOWEVER, that is not the end of the story. I would hope that there is ample time for questions from the audience. After all, that truly is the purpose for the meeting.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Hawkeye,

your questions are valid.

if you read my post one more time, it says, "Ryan Foutz will provide some details on the Expo, drawing odds, number of applicants, etc."

that will be done.

There will also be a complete 4 year review of the expo made to the wildlife Board about what has been funded with the application fees, etc.

There is NOT a statutory requirment how the application fee moneys are spent. The expo has five moving parts, the 200 permits are no doubt a key, but one of five parts.

See, what do people really want ?

OK, SFW does some good things, nice to finally see some admissions of that.

What percent of the gains is really attributable to SFW ?

Well, we just might have some interesting guests at the meeting comment on that.

It will take me 45 minutes to share the 16 year history of SFW. And much of that will explain where the money came from, how it is spent, how it is leveraged, and supposedly, answer what what sportsmen want to know - how SFW has helped fix habitats, increase herds, etc. $150 Million worth.

And i will explain to people how the Expo helps get the tens of millions of dollars for conservation.

Then, i will answer your questions.

If after that you want another meeting to explain all the intracut details of how the Expo came about, why sportsmen groups didn't want to come to Utah, how much time, money and effort was risked to get the Expo here, why the other groups didn't come, why some left, etc, etc, etc that is another 2 or three hour meeting.

The MDF and SFW are partners in teh Expo, as stated. Nobobdy has hounded MDF and Miles MOretti to put his head on a platter, just me. They are 50% equal partners in teh Expo. Get MDF committed to a meeting, SFW will be there.

And no finally, it is very obvious most sportsmen have no clue, and worse, after explanation what really happens, or how many hours the SFW staff puts in this time of year - 18 to 20 hour days, 7 days a week. That is all of us. Byron, Troy, Ryan, and many of the volanteers.

So, as one post said, after my two hours at Browning, all don cares about is sheep, well, in two hours, 150 slides were shown about elk, deer, highways, predators, etc, etc, etc. and ten talked about sheep transplants.

The summary of a bonified SFW and Don Peay hater, he only cares about sheep and the hell with 97,000 deer hunters.

THIS PERSON mised the whole point, 95% of the presentation.

So for that reason, i won't waiste people like that's time or mine. It is pointless, they don't want answers, they don't want to identify problems and soluitons, they just want to shoot holes.

SFW has spent countless hours, tens of thousands of emails, phone calls, million miles traveled sharing information with sportsmen, still not enough.


I hope i answered your question. Hawkeye, you seem to be truly intent on finding out some solutions to our conservation issues.

So to all, show up and 98% of your questoins will be answered as to what has happened over teh last 16 years. And for some, that won't be good enough. But for them, i am done.
 
Don, I think we need to further discuss the details of the meeting. Im trying to organize this and represent the wishes of the attendees of this meeting, and I dont think our agendas are totally on the same page. Check your email.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-10 AT 10:55AM (MST)[p]Don-

Thanks for the response. I will try to hold back on further questions until our meeting on March 25th.

I have to admit that I am absolutely shocked and dumbfounded that the State of Utah was willing to turn over 200 conservation permits to SFW and MDF without requiring that ANY of the funds generated therefrom actually be used for conservation. I bet that the majority of sportsmen assume that monies generated from "Conservation and Convention Permits" are actually being used for "Conservation Projects." I would hope that SFW and MDF have imposed their own internal controls and requirements to ensure that those funds are used wisely and appropriately, even if the State dropped the ball on this issue.

With regard to your frustration over the time, effort and money that SFW has spent trying answer questions from sportsmen, I have to tell you the feeling is mutual. Although I am looking forward to the upcoming meeting, I am disappointed that it had to come to this. SFW and all other non-profit conservation organizations should be open and transparent with regard to how their donations are being spent. SFW could and should have posted this information (tax returns, financial statements, expo numbers, etc.) on its website long ago and averted many of these longstanding questions.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I have a fair question for Don at the meeting. He says he did not want tags sold off of AI and "did not give a damn about the tags" yet he's in the local Ogden paper sponcering a bill to get tags????
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-10 AT 11:02AM (MST)[p]This potential trainwreck could be a case study in public relations.

Expectations were set re the release of Expo drawing odds and SFW did a song and dance for several years. A few folks on MM got bent but most saw the money as a donation with a fair shot at a great tag or two so was no biggie.

2010 Expo results came out and questions arose. That started the smoldering few on MM to rage into a firestorm of many folks.

How should SFW leadership have responded a few weeks ago? Lots of options. Perhaps ignore the firestorm and hope will die down if some supporters take on the battle? Leadership could make some general statements then revert to song and dance about all the good things truthfully achieved while not answering with details the questions being asked. Or, open the financial and Expo kimono and reveal warts and all (every organization has warts and so do each of us so most folks accept sincere mea culpas).

That leads to the potential trainwreck. How can 1000 plus posts be written on MM and each of us, lover or not of SFW, not be able to list the top 3 to 5 unanswered questions?

If the scheduled meetings end up being mostly a set of pictures and a understandably proud listing of # of acres improved, wildlife headcounts, tag headcounts, voluteer headcounts, Expo attendance....yikes.
 
WOW! How is it that Don covers a bunch of positive information that he is going to share at the meeting and all you guys manage to pull out one "negative" statement and feed off of it. AND WE THINK WOLVES ARE BAD! You guys are unbelievable. He said they will go into detail about applicants etc. from the expo. Be happy about that! You guys are trying to find a hole in the bottom of a boat that isn't sinking. How bout we all go the the meeting with an open mind and have the "innocent until proven guilty" attitude that everyone deserves. Even the guys who "supposedly" have big secrets about SFW have produced 0 information or proof. Why don't we all COME DOWN HARD on this Tony guy who could supposedly save us all from this evil monster with all his top secret info. Why don't you guys ask for a meeting with him to get this TOP SECRET INFO OUT there to save Utah's Wildlife!!!! You guys all live on assumptions and rumors and string up SFW without even having any facts. GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS!!!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
Don, you are talking in circles and with a split tongue. You say the deer have benefited greatly from the millions dumped into conservation projects from the funds raised from conservation tags. You even made the absurd claim that deer hunting is better today on general season areas than when SFW started pimping tags. If that is the case, why did SFW push to have the G.S. to be shortened to FIVE days statewide, with some areas reduced to THREE days? Also, why is SFW pushing for going to unit management instead of region management? If things are so much better, we should have seen at least 1 of the following: 1]Increased G.S. permits 2]Longer seasons 3]Higher success rates. It seems to me, SFW thinks rationing = better. This is my primary dissatisfaction with SFW, you guys prefer to ration and limit hunters and then spin it as an improvement simply because more 400" bulls and 200" bucks are killed each year. Antler size has NOTHING to do with herd health! Having elk herds with 60+ bulls per 100 cows is NOT a sign of a healthier herd than one that has 'only' 40 bulls per 100 cows.

I may just come to the meeting, just to watch the spectacle. I have always enjoyed watching the Wizard of Oz.
 
Why does this meeting have to be a "put my head on a platter" for Don Peay?? This could just as easy be a, look here are all the answers for the questions asked, and all the naysayers are proved wrong here. By the way Don I do agree and Miles should be there with you to handle the expo questions.

Speaking only for Gordy here I want to know just one thing, answer this straightforward and you'll never here another peep out of me.

EXACTLY how much money from the expo tags was used to cover WHCE expenses in each year and for exactly what expense. From year one till the last event. Not just we were able to put ten million on the ground for wildlife. I want to know details.
I would like to know that we as tag owners didn't buy any $200.00 hammers or $500.00 toilet seats. Account for each and every penny.

You told the sportsmen and women in the state to trust you on this deal when the WHCE was awarded the tags... Well it's time for the cows to come home on this deal. Seems like a fair question to me.

I'm not questioning your character here Don as I truly believe that you are good man. This isn't a personal attack
but it's time to be held accountable and present the facts to those that you asked for trust several years ago. We trusted you now we would appreciate an accurate accounting.

Thanks
Gordy Bell



*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
13.5% of 3 million dollars spent on habitat is a hard number Don, that means 86.5% spent on staff, advertising etc. Do you include tags and hunts "donated" as salary for your "overworked, underpaid" employees? Obviously SFW is feeling the heat or you wouldn't bother showing up. I don't see a lot of heat on MDF, RMEF, or any other of the organizations why is SFW in the crosshairs? Here is an idea Don, skip the powerpoint and slide show, hand out and or post here a page that shows:

1. total revenue in dollars
2. ammount spend on habitat projects in dollars
3. ammount spent on advertising, consulting, salaries etc in dollars
4. Odds of the expo tags
5. Salaries for employees
6. List of all "donated" hunts, consulting fees, etc. that you and SFW employees received

Simple hard numbers in writing Don, then no one can say you operate in the dark. Put these numbers up Don, not a story, not a slide show, put up these 6 numbers and if you really on the up and up we will see them and apologies will follow. If you had an audit, these numbers are in black and white, show them, not some explaination of how your run better than so and so, and how great you are, accountants deal in hard numbers, if you had one go over your books then he/she has these numbers and its really easy to post them Don, just do it!!
 
Excellent post Hoss. There it is Donny. If you want to double SFWs membership and shut all of us whiners and complainers up once and for all just answer those 6 simple questions with cold hard NUMBERS and not your usual run around BS. Also if you just answer those 6 simple questions there would be no need for the meeting.

I also agree 13.5% of the money actually goes to habitat is a hard pill to swallow. Yet all of the SFW sheep are ok with that. Amazing.
 
I do not understand where the 13.5% of the money actually goes to habitat. I understand that each State keeps the money raised in their State. Also the Expo is seperate from each State also being divided with the Mule Deer Foundation this year. The past three years divided 3 ways with the Sheep foundation. Now SFW said that they put over $1,000,000 dollars on the ground in Utah alone, that means that in Utah they raised 7,400,000 plus some change. Now I have been to some of their banquets around the state and never seen as much as a $100,000 raised at a banquet as they only get 10% or so of the tag sales. Can someone please tell me where all the other money comes from to make the 7.4 million dollars. I would really like to know.
 
Birdman-

I am not an SFW insider and I am certainly not an accountant, but I will do my best to answer your question based upon the information that I have been able to gather. The 13.5% number is based upon SFW's 2007 tax return (http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/870/870575540/870575540_200712_990.pdf). I have not been able to find SFW's 2008 tax return in cyberspace, and it is not posted on their website. Take a minute and look at the expenditures on the 2007 return and you can determine for yourself which expenditures appear to be conservation related. Surprisingly, it appears that more money was spent on consulting fees than actual conservation projects.

When SFW says that it puts "millions of dollars" on the ground, I believe that it is referring to the fact that it successfully gets the state and feds to match funds that SFW invests in conservation. Don also successfully lobbies the state and federal government to invest in conservation. I don't doubt that SFW and Don are successful in getting others to invest in wildlife. In my mind, however, that does not relieve them of the obligation to account for the funds that are entrusted to them - PARTICULARLY when those funds come from the sale of permits taken out of the public draw. They are public stewards over those funds.

In a nutshell, that is my beef with SFW and the other conservation organizations. Over the last several years, I have been a member of a number of these organizations and I have donated a significant amount of money through membership fees, banquets, the expo, etc. However, I have reached a point where I feel like they shoud be held accountable as to how the money is being spent. If everything is on the up and up, show us the numbers, answer any questions and stand up and take pride in what you have done. Their refusal to do so has led me to question what is actually occurring. Hopefully this information will be provdided at the meeting on March 25th.

If anyone from SFW believes that I mistated something, please feel free to correct me. My answer to Birdman's question is based upon what I been able to piece together.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I will be there. I donate enough that I should be a little more concerned I guess. To me it is like drug testing - if you are clean, you shouldn't be worried or opposed. If you are dirty, you should be messing your pants and/or coming up with excuses or diversions. See you all there and hopefully, some things get cleared up.

30-30
 
I would encourage all involved, on both sides, to check this site out.

http://www.muridae.com/publicaccess/

This shows how it should be done, with examples of the non-profits that do it, as well as guidelines for these non-profits.

From the site-

"This site exists to encourage nonprofit organizations to publish their IRS annual informational returns and application for tax-exempt status online as a means of promoting public accountability, as well as to satisfy federal law. The site serves three purposes:

1. To allow tax-exempt nonprofit organizations that have published their IRS materials online to be recognized for their forward thinking and their dedication to public accountability.
2. To provide a centralized resource for those seeking examples of these documents.
3. To aid tax-exempt nonprofit organizations who seek to publish their IRS materials online by providing them with detailed instructions on how to do so on their own."
 
Also from this site:

Five Reasons to Publish Your Organization's IRS Materials Online

1. To demonstrate your organization's commitment to public accountability.

2. To illustrate your organization's fiscal responsibility.

3. To establish an atmosphere where honesty and openness is treasured.

4. To capitalize on a progressive means of communicating with your community

5. To comply with anticipated IRS regulations for access to your records.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-10 AT 10:13AM (MST)[p]You guys that live in UT - i can only hope that the SFW grows as big in NM as it has in UT. There is a ton of money and political stroke going on in UT thanks to Don. SFW has benifited UT sportsman more than any 4 orginizations put together. They are also fighting the wolf issue on a Federal level even though UT has no wolves yet.

I have no idea why some of are kicking a gift horse in the mouth. I hope that the meeting goes well and does not just become some sort of yelling session. I also hope that for once and forever that the slandering on this site stops after the meeting.

I just have one question for the guys that have been tearing at the SFW. Why is it that the trophies coming out of UT has seen such a great rise over the last decade?
 
"I just have one question for the guys that have been tearing at the SFW. Why is it that the trophies coming out of UT has seen such a great rise over the last decade?"

30inchbuck don't waste your breath! Nobody on here will answer that question because they don't care about RESULTS. They are all accountants since they didn't draw any tags at the expo and ONE SFW employee did. They are way to busy sitting at their computers all day complaining about the people that actually get things done. It will go in one ear and out the other but yet if they had drawn an expo tag they would all be happy. THEY DON'T WANT TO WATCH A SLIDESHOW ABOUT WHAT SFW HAS ACCOMPLISHED BECAUSE THEY ARE TO WORRIES ABOUT THEIR FINANCIALS!
I HAVE A QUESTION: IF SFW IS SO TERRIBLE WHY DO I HEAR SO MANY OUT OF STATER'S WISHING THEY HAD SFW IN THEIR STATES?

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
To the SFW haters.

I think you will be glad you went to the meeting. If you treat each other with respect, It will be a win win meeting. I have been to alot of meetings the past 15 yrs. I have been to a few, where some very successful business men, who have studied the results, know the details, have written out big checks to SFW. I know of over 9 million given to SFW. These business men/women who see the big picture, and see the future problems, and know what it takes to fix the problems, have opened their wallets big time.

I don't agree with all decisions and things that SFW does.

It is a great organization. Don, and the SFW board has done a great job.

After the meeting, it will be interesting to hear comments. I know there is not one perfect group. Not everyone will be satisified.

I'm don't like everything the NRA does. Where would we be without them.

I'm confident those who attend and listen will be glad they did.

Almost every SFW banquet is sold out well in advance. That say's something.

Questions will be answered. Sportsmen fight sportsmen is not good for us and our future.

I know some of the politics and the emphasis on non game hunting that the DWR had prior to SFW. It was a joke. Unbelievable.

My only comments. Hope to see you at the meeting.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-10 AT 02:17PM (MST)[p]Jason,
I don't know you, but you seem like a good guy and you are a bowhunter so you can't be all bad, but dude, you gotta lay off the SFW koolaid.

On another thread I recall you preaching for more tag opportunity by using archery as a vehicle (potential for more tags with lower success rates), to which I wholeheartedly agree. However, at the same time, you are perfectly OK with SFW taking 540 tags (340 Auction + 200 Expo)of opportunity away from the general public. Let me repeat that FIVE HUNDRED and FORTY total tags. That is a lot of opportunity for everyone that is being taken away. And don't give me the crap that those 540 tags are a small sacrifice for all of us to make so that more money can be put on the ground for conservation.

This is the very crux of the problem: We are all losing A LOT of tags to SFW and other conservation orgs and not one of them will be forthright about the money that these tags generate and where it all goes, so you are damn right I am worried about the financials because we are all giving up a public resource with no accountability from those who have been given stewardship over that resource!! If that does not make sense to you, I am not sure how to help you.
 
Results? If they are claiming that every trophy animal taken in this state owes its trophy status to SFW, imagine how many trophies there will be when then spend lets say 50% of there revenue on habitat as opposed to the 13.5% they did in 2007. One spider bull doesn't make that small percentage suddenly OK. As for wolves, anyone who thinks that SFW is the only group fighting against them has drank so much cool aid they should go put on their Nike's and lay down on their bunk beds until the mother ship comes. Sorry, but if SFW wants 200 tags out of the general pool then they need to open the books, because I don't have a calculator handy but 13.5% of $3 million is what about $500,000 for habitat? That one Spider bull brought in $175,00 by itself in one tag, not 200. Do the math, for those 200 tags, they averaged about $22 per tag put into habitat. The state can get a hell of a lot more than that per tag and I guarantee they spend way more than 13.5% on our critters! How does out of staters know about SFW if they aren't in there state? Advertising, how much did that cost?
 
I know this thread is for simply asking questions for the meeting, but I'm going to provide the background to my questions first.

I filed a GRAMA request with the state about a year ago, and made four specific requests:

1) Conservation permit reports for years 2006 ? 2008, as required under Administrative Rule R657-41-9(2)(b, c and d) from all organizations which received conservation permits in those years.

2) Annual audits conducted by UDWR for years 2006 ? 2008 as required under Administrative Rule R657-41-9(6)(b) on all organizations which received conservation permits in those years.

3) All audits completed under Administrative Rule R657-55-4(8)(f) for all completed years of hunting convention.

4) Copy of the contract between UDWR and ?conservation organization? as required under Rule R657-55-4-(10)

After several correspondences with the nice lady charged with filling my request, I recieved a portion of the information requested. It seems that a lot of it just wasn't available.

Request #1: Regarding conservation permits, Administrative Rule R657-41-9(2) states:
"(2) Within 30 days of the last event, but no later than September 1 annually, the conservation organization must submit to the division:

(a) a final report on the distribution of permits;

(b) the total funds raised on each permit;

(c) the funds due to the division; and

(d) a report on the status of each project funded in whole or in part with retained conservation permit revenue."

Nowhere in the information given to me is there a breakdown of funds raised by each permit. There is a list of projects funded between 2001 and 2006, but nothing for 2007 or 2008. In 2006, it shows $371,975 in projects funded by SFH with conservation permit dollars.

For 2006, SFH is shown to have raised $710,875 with the sale of 109 conservation permits. They are allowed to keep 10% for administrative expenses ($71,087), and must give the UDWR 30% ($213,262). That left $426,526 for projects (per the UDWR report). Note above that the UDWR shows SFH funded projects totaling $371,975 with 2006 money, leaving $64,551 unaccounted for, per the above number of over $426K.

Request #2: Administrative Rule R657-41-9(6)(a and b) states:
"(6)(a) Conservation organizations accepting permits shall be subject to annual audits on project expenditures and conservation permit accounts.

(b) The division shall perform annual audits on project expenditures and conservation permit accounts."

The first thing I discovered about the required audits, as written right on the cover letter of each audit:

"This audit was not performed in accordance with generally accepted auditing standards, but is an internal audit designed by the UDWR fiscal section. Our report focuses on verifying that funds raised are placed in a secure account and expenditures on projects were approved prior to performance."

So what this tells you is that there is no true accounting for how dollars are spent.

The numbers on these audits do not begin to add up from year to year. There are huge holes (deficits) which are unexplained. The entire "audit" report consists of less than half of one page of paper.

For example, the 2006 numbers for SFH follow (note the numbers I gave above from another document):

Pemit revenue: $710,875
Less 10% admin: ($71,087)
Less 30% UDWR: ($213,262)
Total Retained for projects: $426,526
Carryover from 2005: $66,152
Total available: $492,678

Projects funded: $91,308

The 2007 report is organized exactly the same. The carryover listed from 2006 is $316,738.58, leaving $175,394.42 unaccounted for.

Each subsequent year also shows a deficit that is unaccounted for. At very least, the UDWR is ignoring some very easy to identify shortfalls in the numbers, and at most, something criminal is taking place.

Request #3: Regarding the expo permits, Administrative Rule R657-55-4(8)9f) states:
"(8) The conservation organization receiving the wildlife convention permit series must:
(f) submit to wildlife convention permit series audits by a division-appointed auditor upon division request.

Apparently the UDWR has never requested audits, because none exist, or they wouldn't send them to me.

Request #4: This is the only one of my requests that I received entirely.

The obvious questions for Don at the scheduled meeting should be, where is all of the above documentation that is required by state rule? Specifically:

1) a breakdown of money raised on each tag,

2) an accounting of how many dollars were spent on each project ("saying" x amount of dollars was spent is NOT an accounting).

3) where are all of the missing dollars as indicated by the UDWR "audits".

4) how much money is raised by the convention permits, and how is that money being spent? It's not required to be spent on wildlife, per state rules. Tell us how it is being spent (specifically).

As an aside, one of the state "audits" was conducted by someone named Ashley Moretti. Is she related to Miles Moretti?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-10 AT 07:23PM (MST)[p] I filed the same request on the expo permits last year and was told there had never been an audit as well..

Sorry but enough is enough...

Accountability????

JW I never got your PM




*****************************************
Wiley,
I am nominating that for post of the
century on Monster Muleys!

Your are spot on.
 
I Agree they should open the books and hopefully they will at this meeting BUT they do deserve a lot of credit for what they have done!! THAT BEING SAID YOU ARE RIGHT!! IF WE HAD LOTS MORE ARCHERY TAGS FOR LE HUNTS WE WOULD ALL HAVE more opportunity!! IT IS JUST MOST GUYS WON'T BUY INTO ARCHERY AS THE GREATEST CONSERVATION TOOL EVER INVENTED!!!!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
As I have said in prior posts, I have no faith that the DWR is providing any real oversight as to how these funds are being spent. The only way that these groups will ever be held accountable is if we as sportsmen stand up and demand accountability. Hopefully, we will receive answers to many of these questions on March 25th.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Excellent post Utelkhunter. Let's not forget at the last elk comity meeting, SFW asked for 100 more LE elk tags, that would bring the total to SIXHUNDRED AND FORTY. I'll be at the meeting, I wouldn't miss it.
 
I think Wiley and Colorado have identified the real problem here. Based on their information, Utah dept of wildlife has failed miserably to meet thier legal responsibilities for these programs. That is where the pressure needs to be applied.

I have noticed on another thread the Director of the Utah DFW has posted some information. It would seem appropriate for him to respond to this thread as well.

Whether or not all the funds generated by the auction and convention tags is being used correctly is far less important, in my view, than that the Utah DFW is failing to follow the rules established when these programs were approved to protect the public interest.

It might be a good idea for you guys to submit your experiences with the department regarding these programs to some of the media outlets in your area. A little public exposure might go a long way to getting things straightened out.

I forgot who posted it, but thanks for the info about the site that monitors non-profit organization finances. I think I will use that as a determiner in which organizations get my support going forward.

Scoutdog
 
For many years I spent a lot of time going to meetings and trying hard to help Utah sportsman. I stood with Don on the Capital steps when all this began. I was a firm supporter of SFW and Don in the early days.

Don is a talented and tireless worker and like him or not, he can get things done. He knows how to play the game!

When all this started and I was on board, it was all about fixing the mule deer herd. Somewhere along the way things changed big time, as did the focus and his mission.

How can we not be in the mess, when have allowed a system to develop with no checks and balances and basically run and directed by one person.

Let's take the RAC's and Wildlife Board for example. How can they work to the public?s and wildlife?s advantage and fairness, when they are basically hand picked and for all intense purposes appointed by the MAN who is running this show? The same can be said about the present Director of the DWR. When one man is allowed so much power and so much control,(and I am not talkng about the DWR Director) is it really any wonder why so many sportsmen feel so left out and so disgruntled with the system.

Anyone who has attended the RAC and Board meetings know exactly what I mean. Is it any wonder that reports and audits, that should be required by law, for the protection of the state and its resources, are not happening? I think not under the present system.

If you own a company, you pretty much can call the shots and take it where you want it to go. And sadly for this State and the DWR, and all its hunters, this is what we have allowed to happen.

I personally think this state needs to overhaul the DWR starting right at the top and moving down through the RACS and Wildlife Board. No one with a personal agenda should be allowed to have so much influence and control over so much of the process.

The whole CRUX of these matters stem from what the STATE of UTAH has allowed to happen. No OTHER state in the union would allow THIS! SHAME on all of US!

Hopefully Utahan?s will expose this injustice and these unacceptable practices and get some checks and balances back into this segment of our system.

In what other state could an Conservation Organization get 200 great permits to sell without requiring close controls and accounting? When this was allowed to happen not ONE DIME was required to go back to this states? WILDLIFE! It was simply given on a handshake and a promise

One of my favorite lines in a poem written by Robert Service (The Ballad of Sam McGee), says, ?A promise made is a debt unpaid!?

I think the debt remains unpaid!




Have a good one. BB
 
Tony

You are wrong again I did not run off with my tail between my legs. I am still here much to your dismay! Just a busy banquet week with no time to get on MM.
You are a typical bully! You like to throw punches but when someone throws one back you dont like it. You like to attack others credabilty and integrity but when someone points out yours is flawed you cant handle it.

In the words of Dennis Green (You are who we thought you were)
a blow hard that is full of himself.

Yes you have done some good things and you have had some idea's that deserve a closer look. But you will never be able to get over the fact SFW cut you loose.

Troy Justensen
 
Troy, how about you attack the questions directed at SFW with the same fervor as you attack Tony? If SFW has nothing to hid, then open your damn books! You and Tony can do a MMA event for all I care.

What I would like to see are answers, not spin or hyperbole, but straight up answers. How much has been raised, how much as actually hit the ground, how much has SFW kept for expenses, and why is SFW continually reducing opportunity through shorter season dates for GS deer, doing away with statewide archery (Yes I know it was brought back despite SFW's objections), increasing harvest age objectives that WILL reduce public tags for limited entry elk, wanting to take 100+ tags from the public pool to bribe landowners with, and by the soon to be recommendation pushed by SFW to go limited entry for deer statewide?
 
Puppets only do what the puppet master allows them to do.

The only personal shots on here were the ones made towards me.

Should I talk about the $22,500 buyout offer you put in front of me that I turned down?

OH, you probably forgot about that. That was the offer for me to walk away and sign a non compete non disclosure agreement.

How did that work out for you guys Troy when I turned down your blood money offer?

You gonna deny that as well?
 

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