SFW Meeting Report

[slamdunk]

"Our elk herd has grown out of control because they haven't been hunted"

C'mon buckey, are you seriously going to say this??
The tune last year and previous years by your clan was quite the opposite.
First we were over hunting our elk, now we're not hunting them enough?
How many tags are on the Dutton, not counting spike hunters?
60+ or so mature bull tags for aproximately 2000 total elk and relatively low bull population? (only one small example)

Ok then, lets hunt the dang things then, up the bull tags to 120 and lets hunt 'em!!
Oh ya, now we have offset the ratios, more cow tags please!!














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[hoytme]

Slam, you lost me. First, when did SWB and his 'clan' ever say the MATURE bulls were being over-hunted on limited entry units? Second, are you denying that there are excess bulls on the limited entry units? Are you saying that having bull:cow ratios in excess of 50:100 is 'needed' to maintain/grow elk populations? Third, you say if we up bull permits we will need to kill more cows, that is 180 degrees from reality. Right now the DWR is forced to issue 'excess' cow tags due to high bull:cow ratios and being FORCED to carry excess bulls. For every excess bull removed, you can have another cow that PRODUCES on that unit. More producers means more bulls being recruited into the herd each year. More bulls recruited into the herd INCREASES the odds of getting 'superior' genetics in the mix.

 

[slamdunk]

Pro, where did i say that SWB said anything about maure bulls being hunted?
My "quote" was very clear....or so i thought so.
He said "elk herds"....and that was my quote.
"Herd" to me means elk in general, spikes, mature bulls, middle aged bulls, cows & calves.
Do you always make a habit out of answering someone elses questions? Lol

You yourself have complained for years about too many tags and overhunting, now your changing your tune about that as well as everything else. I CLEARLY remember you laughing at Stinky when you were warning him about all the hunters he'll see on the Dutton, no???
And how it's such a remote unit that they have to over issue tags to get the kill percentages up, is that not what you called over hunting or excessive pressure??

And this seems to me to be a confusing circle of events-
"For every excess bull removed, you can have another cow that PRODUCES on that unit. More producers means more bulls being recruited into the herd each year. More bulls recruited into the herd INCREASES the odds of getting 'superior' genetics in the mix."

If your gospel words are true wisdom, how can recycling those bulls spell out better superior genetics??
Just because you take 200 out, doesn't mean the next 200 will have better genetics.
If this is true, please explain.......





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[swbuckmaster]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-10 AT 06:50PM (MST)[p]
Slammy you have me confused with someone else I have never said the big bulls have been hunted to much. In fact I say the opposite. i like how the Dutton never had a spike hunt on it and it issued ten times as many big bull permits as the bever. Ya that moves people through the system.

I might have said the spikes should not be hunted because they are the future trophy for someone.

I have also said cows should never be hunted unless the herd is at objective. then the cows should be hunted in that case.

I have also said get the rifle hunt out of the rut and move the archery hunt in the rut. This is the only way you are going to have a hunter would even want to pick up a gay bow.

I have said replace the spike tags and increase the archery tags and muzzy loader tags. this reduces the range of the weapons and having more people in the field reduces success rates. It also moves people through the system without affecting the quality. Cause I still want to hunt a 320-350 bull.

I have also said im sick of the tag grab from SFW.

I don't think these are unreasonable do you!!!! Tell me where im up in the night. Tell me where im incorrect. Tell me where you disagree.

Nets are for fish!!

 

[hoytme]

"If your gospel words are true wisdom, how can recycling those bulls spell out better superior genetics??
Just because you take 200 out, doesn't mean the next 200 will have better genetics.
If this is true, please explain......."

If MORE bulls are recruited into a herd, the odds INCREASE of a 'superior' bull being recruited based on sheer numbers. If only 50 bulls are recruited into a herd, the odds of a 'super' bull being in the mix are LESS than if 100 bulls are recruited into a herd. Its the law of averages in its simplest form.If you flip a quarter 50 times, your odds of it landing on heads 10 times are lower than if you flip the quarter 100 times. And, it is dumb luck, at least as far as being able to control/predict, what newly recruited bull will be a stud bull. So, the more times you "flip" the coin, the better odds you have of getting the desired outcome.

I have said, and maintain the opinion, that they issue excess cow tags on Dutton. They justify it with low success rates for antler-less permits. But, that is flirting with danger, a heavy snow storm could lead to a slaughter like we had on the Fish Lake 8 years ago. I also believe the DWR counts are way off on the herd populations of Dutton/Boulder/Beaver EVERY year because the elk move between the units so frequently. It is little more than a WAG on how many elk actually reside on any of these units. I contend there are far fewer resident elk on Dutton today than 5 years ago. But, what that has to do with lowering the bull:cow ratio escapes me.

 

[hossblur]

Without doing any research i am going to guess that MDF, RMEF, Full curl, cattlemens assoc., woolgrowers assoc., and every other hunting and/or livestock group is in the fight against wolves, and by the way, many of them have been fighting for a while, the wolf issue is newer to Utah, while in Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho it has been going on for a while and most of those organizations have been fighting in those states. In this state, because he has sought out PR so much, Don has become the go to guy for a quote, don't confuse that with fighting wolves, and I don't doubt that he is, but he is easy to find for a lazy journalist when they need a quote. Don Peay is not an elected office holder, he is a lobbyist. You give him $100 to fight wolves, he keeps his salary, overhead etc. then greases(I mean lobbies) elected reps. You can do this yourself, you don't have to be the leader of SFW. Simply contact your rep, tell him you'd like to donate to his compaign or war chest if he/she will speak up against wolves. Unfortunately we have to be realists. We are not going to be able to kill every wolf in this state(I too would want to), the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT has spent way to much time and money in reintroduction to allow any state to eradicate them, it won't happen. Without some kind of actual plan on how to control/manage them, we will have a bunch of totally protected wolves running in the state. We should spend a lot less time in trying the eradication(failed in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho), and a lot more time in setting up a management plan, including a wolf season. THEY ARE HERE ALREADY, they aren't going away, unfortunately, so SFW and the others need to figure out how to get the state a managment plan that will allow some measure of control.

 

[swbuckmaster]

>"If your gospel words are true
>wisdom, how can recycling those
>bulls spell out better superior
>genetics??
>Just because you take 200 out,
>doesn't mean the next 200
>will have better genetics.
>If this is true, please explain......."
>
>
>If MORE bulls are recruited into
>a herd, the odds INCREASE
>of a 'superior' bull being
>recruited based on sheer numbers.
>If only 50 bulls are
>recruited into a herd, the
>odds of a 'super' bull
>being in the mix are
>LESS than if 100 bulls
>are recruited into a herd.
>Its the law of averages
>in its simplest form.

What Hoytme he is trying to say Slam is a 4A school would kick the hell out of a 1A school in body building. This is because a 4A school has twice as many boys to recruit from. Thus just by a statistical chance there would be a better chance of having genetic freak that could put on more mass then the rest.

It wont explain why the meat heads will still have small pE-neye's though LOL

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

OK hoss, you make some good points and I like your attitude with getting involved on a personal level, but it's not just Don that's saying SFW is a big contributor in the fight against wolves. If you google the subject you would be hard pressed to find an article or court document without SFW fingerprint on it. I also seriously doubt that if you or I were to go up to a local representative and slip him a Benjamin that he would do anything more than smile and say thank you. Clout is where it's at on the political front if you don't have it those boys won't give you the time of day. I think we would all like to believe that "one person does make a difference" but you and I both know that's not the case in politics.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com