Shiite Shrine bombing, here we go again

[huntindude]

The Shiite shrine Askariya, one of their holiest that was bombed once already was bombed again today. many experts say this will set off a new round of revenge bombings and killings like we saw last time killing what little progress has been made since the occupation began. the US promises to rebuild the shrine but the Sunni say we told them that after the 2006 bombing and nothing has happened so they'll deal with it. this isn't about Bush anymore, these people are flat crazy and our mission of making Iraq whole again is just as crazy as they are. I don't care if 3% of the Iraqi are decent or not it's time to let the chips fall where they may . who wants to bet things are still in the crapper come September on judgment day? I held out some hope of a miracle but this pretty much ends it, a leading expert on Muslims says revenge for this could take years. this dog and pony show has gone on long enough, we may have broke it but we can't fix it.

For a change rather than jumping right into personal attacks could we have some ideas on how to fix this if you think it can it be fixed ? remember we need something before September, eternity isn't an option. what should we do if things go as bad as some say it will?

 

[bobcatbess]

A FEW YEARS AGO!!!

DID I NOT SAY:YOU CAN'T WIN IT THE WAY WE ARE TRYING TO WIN IT???

I ALSO SAID THE 3 FLY-OVERS WAS A QUICKER ANSWER!!!

SEVERAL OF YOU JUMPED ME FOR KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE!!!

I GUESS NO INNOCENT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS!!!

3,000+ AMERICAN SOLDIERS HAVE BEEN KILLED & THAT TOTALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!

I ALSO SAID WE COULD NOT AFFORD IT,WTF???

AH HELL,LETS JUST PRINT SOME MORE!!!

I ALSO ASKED HOW YOU FIGURED THEY WERE GOOD PEOPLE WHEN ALOT OF THEM ARE TOO GUTLESS TO HELP US SORT THEM OUT???

SURE THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE THERE,BUT THEY'VE HAD THE GUN TO THEIR HEADS WAY TO LONG!!!

AND IF WE LEAVE!!!

I GUARANTEE YOU SADAMN THE II TAKES OVER!!!

ANYBODY WANT TO PLACE SOME MONEY ON IT???

IT'S TAKEN ALOT OF YOU SEVERAL YEARS TO START SEEING THE LIGHT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHY SEVERAL OF YOU HAVE CHANGED YOUR MINDS OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS???

 

[ismith]

Well, If I was in charge, the first thing I would do is to divide Iraq into 3 seperate entitys. Kurdistan, Sunni Iraq and Shiite Iraq. I figure it will happen anyways, so why delay it?
ismith

 

[Forthewall]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-07 AT 06:56PM (MST)[p]There you go again Dude typical limp wristed Dem respo....oops I thought I was somebody else for a second.

I don't think there is any fix to this situation. We let the genie out of the bottle and created such a massive power vacuum that the only answer is an all out civil war. The sectarian strife can only end when both sides are finally too tired of the bloodshed and despair.

We should start moving troops out of central Iraq and relocate them in the north and south (old no fly zone areas). Anyways we need to secure the northern border since Kurdish Groups are popping across the border to carry out car bombings in Turkey. Then returning back into Kurdish Iraq under our protection.

This will make our withdrawal orderly with half leaving by air and the other half leaving by sea. The last ones out should be mercenaries, their high-paid arses should have to cover the grunts upon our exit.

Unfortunately we will have to leave our 200 billion embassy Camp Halliburton behind, just like Camp Chaos, and Camp Failure.

Rather than re-hashing what got us here, we can't pull out the "send more troops card" anymore. Logically that would be the military solution, but this is not a military problem it's a civil/religious issue with no normal attainable political solution.

I've gone on record here months ago, it's time for a phased withdrawal. We could have been half way out by now and saved 40 Billion dollars. More importantly we could have saved over 200 american lives, to me that's more noteworthy than the $40 billion.

The country is already divided into 3rds, so we can take that card off table. We cannot build the 2 walls fast enough or place a effective means of division fast enough.

Whether its Northern Ireland here's a Protestant, here's a Catholic which is which. Here's a sunni, here's a shiite, which is which it's the same.

Although I like things that go boom, sorry bobcat going nuclear will only leave whatever remnants leftover after the civil war with no viable economic means. Afterall our soldiers will have senselessly died if we our oil oligarchy never gets to exploit Iraq of it's natural resources.

What we are seeing now is the Awe of Shock and Awe. Awe as in Awe Shucks maybe we should have listened to our top generals instead of our top idiots.

"I hear a train a coming, it's rolling round the bend and I ain't seen the sunshine sense I don't know when"

One more thing DUDE, YOU HAVE FUNNY LOOKING HAIR.

 

[bobcatbess]

I SAY LET THE KURDS MOVE SOUTH AND TAKE CARE OF TWO PROBLEMS!!!

FTW!!!

REMEMBER WHEN LITTLE GEORGE SAID IT WASN'T ABOUT THE OIL???

WTF???

AND AGAIN!!!

YOU ACCUSE ME OF USING NUCLEAR!!!

WTF???

WHEN I'VE NEVER MENTIONED GOING NUCLEAR!!!

SOME OF YOU NEED TO CHECK INTO THE FUTURE ONCE IN A WHILE!!!

WE HAVE WEAPONS THAT BASICALLY DO THE SAME THING AS NUKES BUT WITHOUT THE AFTERMATH!!!

I SWEAR TO GOD SOME OF YOU ARE STILL BACK IN THE 40'S!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING HOW MANY MORE YEARS WE'RE GONNA DINK AROUND WITH THIS SO-CALLED WAR???

 

[lve2143]

Hell, if that old rancher man you were mad at
the other day would just dump his oil in their
water supply, it would help alot.

Just trying to help

fyi
lrv

 

[RELH]

Dude and Fwall, I feel that you have brought up several very good matters for discussion that can be addressed. As you know I am not for the pull out as dictated by the Dems. in congress. We are getting to the point that we should be looking at alternate plans if the Iraq Gov. and people can not get their game together.
No manner how anybody looks at it, we are going to have to pull out at sometime, we cannot maintain the high level of military forces forever. we should try and get the Iraq military and police on a honest fair level of being able to take over via training and start moving out our mainline forces as soon as the Iraqs can take over various duties. I would like to see more use of special forces in training the Iraqs and acting as a advisor on their combat operations and free up the American front line troops for return to U.S. soil.
We do need to set deadlines for the Iraq Gov. to step up to the plate and start doing things for themselfs and we take a smaller role and free up our troops for removal on a step by step basis. This has been happening in several locations and the program needs more expansion so that our troops can leave and not be diverted to another hotspot in Iraq.
I agree that serious thoughts should be given into dividing the country into three seperate states with local gov. being run by the majority of each state. The only problem I see with this, is that the oil fields would be in the state run by the Kurds and the other two groups are not going to give up that oil money. They need to develope a fair means of dividing the money for all three states, maybe based on population or some other means, or it will never happen in the near future. Boy that sounds like our Dems. and GOP fighting over the funds.
As for the waste of money on the embassy, that crap happens everytime this country and it's dipolmats get involved with foreign countries. It happen in Viet Nam and every where else we poked our noses into in a military manner.
We can just hope, and try to see that practical metholds are used to bring this to a conclusion that will benefit US and the Iraqs. It will not be overnight, but we have the right to see daylight at the end of the tunnel. If in a reasonable amount of time in the next year or so, we can not see any daylight, pack up and leave.

RELH

 

[Forthewall]

Alright Bobcat, you're already schooling me in the trivia quiz so what do we have in the ammo box that could accomplish a massive destruction of the uncivil populace in Iraq, yet leave the infrastructure in place in 3 flyovers?

And I forgot, we aren't there for the oil I just can't remember why we are there. It's changed a couple of times, I can't remember the terror color chart either, is today a yellow or orange day? If it is an orange is that good or really really bad?

Hey Bobcat if WTF means XXXX XXX XXXX then I guess FTW means....?

 

[huntindude]

RELH on the surface your ideas make sense but they don't address the sectarian issue that's at the heart of this mess. the Iraqi police and military are as corrupt as anyone carrying out sectarian killings, you can't force civility from the people when their government is not much more than death squads themselves. it's almost a given in time the military and police will divide and fight on sectarion lines themselves. I don't see any way to work with people like this, hate and revenge is their life and what's worse they seem to like it.

 

[ismith]

Id be all for hooking the Kurds up with the oil fields and saying the hell with the rest of the country. I spent quite a bit of time with Kurdish people when I was over there and they have been valuable allies of ours.
ismith

 

[bobcatbess]

HEY #### THE WHAT!!!

UNCIVIL POPULACE!!!

WTF???

WHEN YOU'RE AT WAR YOU ARE AT WAR!!!

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS!!!

WTF IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 3 FLY-OVERS VERSUS SHOOTING THE COUNTRY DOWN SLOWLY WITH SMALL ARMS & TAKING 5-6 DOING IT???

ANSWERS PLEEEEEEEASE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WAITING FOR MORE INTELLIGENT ANSWERS,MAYBE WE SHOULD INVENT A SMART BOMB THAT ONLY KILLS THE BAD GUY???

 

[RELH]

Dude;
You have a very valid point about members of the police and military being loyal to their clans or religious sect. that is one of the areas where we have to require from the Iraq gov. that officers and commanders of these groups must be appointed based on their skills and loyalty to the gov. American military intelligence has the means to weed out the bad ones if the Iraq Gov. will fully cooperate with their suggestions.
If you have a good hard core of leaders, the rest will come easier in building up a viable military & police force, but it has to have the full support of the Iraq gov. and they wanting a strong military force that does not have their loyalty somewhere else.
if they can do this, that force also will be strong enought to take on insurgent groups from other countries, Iran or syria and osama's group. If that can happen, we have gone a long way in blunting Iran's and Syria's terr tactics and complete domination of that area. that is if we or Israel makes certain that Iran does not obtain nukes and become so strong that they overtake the whole region and hold us up to blackmail for their oil if they end up controlling the bulk of the fields in the middle east. Dude stop and think about it, if we do not control this problem today, you can bet your Kid's butts that they will have to deal with it down the line.

RELH

 

[NeMont]

How come Sunni and Shiites aren't in open warfare with each other in these other nations? Why should Iraq be partitioned and please explain how you would go about physically seperating these different populations? Shiite Iran is supplying Sunni Afghanistan and Sunni Al Qaeda is on record as support Shiite Hezbollah's efforts in Lebanon. Religion is just an excuse not unlike Northern Ireland.

September is a ways off why not at least get through July before you guys and Harry Reid declare defeat?

Also if we are just there to rape and pillage the Iraqi oil fields how come the first contracts let went to non U.S. owned companies?

Have you talked to any of guys who are operating in the Sunni triangle and for the first time have the local chiefs helping out with intel?

While it is a difficult situation and one without any easy answers you guys basically have a deadline that is looming, Sept 07, when a progress report is due. The troops will begin to flow out of Iraq as the presidential election heats up. Why are you jumping in now when the last combat brigade that was part of the surge just arrived in country less then a month ago? I think Pelosi and Reid are afraid of any progess ever being seen in Iraq that is why they are declaring that the surge isn't working. Is that what you guys think as well? Why can't you wait until Sept?



Sunni Nations

Afghanistan- Sunni 80% Sunni, 19% Shi'a.

Egypt- 90%, Coptic Christian and other 10% 20

Jordan- 95% Sunni population
Kuwait- 70% of native Kuwaitis are Sunni Muslims, 30% are Shi'a Muslims 25

Pakistan- 77% Sunni Muslims, 20% are Shi'a Muslims 21

Qatar- The Qataris are mainly Sunni Muslims. Islam is the official religion. 24

Saudi Arabia- 85% Sunni, most adhering to Wahhabi tenets, 7% Shiite, 3.7% Catholic 11

Syria -74% Sunni, 13-15 Alawi (moderate Sunni), 10% Christian, 1% Shiite 10, 15

Turkey- 75% Sunni, 25% Alevi (very small percentage of Christians and Jews)




Shiite Nations

Iran- Shiite Chief Cleric is the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, a Shiite cleric 89% belong to the Shi'a branch of Islam, the official state religion, and about 9% belong to the Sunni branch

Lebanon- Christian/Shiite/Sunni 27 percent Sunnis (see Glossary), 41 percent Shias, 7 percent Druzes, 16 percent Maronites, 5 percent Greek Orthodox, and 3 percent Greek Catholics. 19

Oman- Ibadite 75% Ibadite Muslim (followers of the Imam Allah ibn Ibad) a division of the eighth century Kharijite sect of Shia 35

Yemen- Shiite/Sunni Islam is the official religion (53 percent Shi'ite, 47 percent Sunni

 

[huntindude]

This is 99% about religion, in most of the countries you listed there is a power strucure in place and the minority religions know their place and stay in it. in the cases where there isn't a clear majority that doesn't mean there's not tension it just means they aren't fighting at the moment, well some are. the brawl has started now , and some fear it will spread to other countries. are you implying all is well elsewhere in the middle east ? do you read or watch the news? experts say the whole region is on the brink of war and all you want to do is find a way to pin it on the dems? the reason we can't fix this fall right on the Muslims themselves, if you're looking for someone here in the US to blame you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[NeMont]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-07 AT 11:58AM (MST)[p]
I wasn't pinning anything on anybody. There is a time table, even if nobody is calling it that.

The last combat brigade just got into position and Harry Reid declared the surge a failure. Who else should I pin that comment on?

I watch the news and read ALOT as well. I have about as much faith in the U.S. news media as you have in GWB having one firing brain cell.

Have you read or watched any of the rest of the world's media. There is a pretty different picture of the middle East painted by reporters who aren't working strictly for the Democratic Party in the U.S.

Believe as you wish. I just asked a couple of questions.

Like explain how partitioning would actually work in Iraq.

If all the problems in the Middle East are "99%" religion then how come Hamas is battling Fatah right now? Why is Iran arming Afghanistan? It is about control of resources and political power not religion.



Nemont

 

[proutdoors]

Bobby, pretending we follow your advice and do the 'three fly overs', then what? Most of the trouble makers over there are NOT Iraqis, they are coming from Iran, Syria and other Muslim nations. There is no simple solutions, it takes resolve, not wiping out a civilization. If we take out Iraq, what will the rest of the world do? Then you can really kiss our economy good-bye. Not a SINGLE military general would agree with your short-sighted 'advise'. Progress IS being made, don't believe the doom and gloom that the liberal media spews out. Talk to people who have been there, most of Iraq is doing quite well. Assuming all of Iraq is in chaos is like assuming everyone in Utah is as stupid as Rocky Anderson. A few morons don't make a nation.

PRO

 

[Forthewall]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-07 AT 02:35PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-07 AT 02:31?PM (MST)

Hey Nemont, long time no read! Glad to see you here.

As we both mentioned, this war shares some similarities to Northern Ireland yet there are many differences. One major difference is that as Americans we could ingest and identify with Shin Fein (msp)due to our shared WASP background. Their organization had a structure and a leader.

Cultural and historically we don't really understand all the mulitple factions, sects, and tribal relationships. The different combinations of sectarian violence is further evidence that these are revenge and reprisal killings.

Unlike their neighboring muslim countries, the sunni/shiite and all other combinations thereof, desire for blood is the direct result of living as a political minority in a totalitarian state for 43 years.

We flipped the country's power structure overnight, knowing the shiite had an ax to grind for years of abuse by the Baathist. So it comes as no surprise that the local baathist torturers and henchmen were first on list.

A ravenous blackmarket, extreme unemployment, and a lack of reliable security, combined with religious differences breed battles for power on the local levels. Nationally, the once predominant upper class of sunni baathists feel they are struggling for their survival politically, while the shiite would like to cleanse the populace of baathist radical sunnis.

Another recurring pattern is the corruption that exists in this newly formed government, where high ranking officials have assisted with sectarian killings and attacks on U.S. soldiers.

Iraq is like some Godzilla movie where the multi-headed beast simply regenerate another head out of need or desire.

We can go round and round about the oil Nemont, but Wolfowitz while in Amsterdam last year was asked by reporters why there was no military humanitarian mission to Darfur like Iraq?

Wolfowitz responded, "Because Darfur does not sit on an ocean of oil."

The very first thing Bremmer did was to revert the price per barrel of oil from the euro back to the dollar.

In essence we are there to protect the Iraqi oil from becoming nationalized and keeping it available for the free market. Not necessarily to pump it out of the ground directly in the middle of the night.

Security is the only determining factor that keeps people swayed away from violence and directs them politically. If there were no security in our own country, how many protests would be similiar to what we see in 3rd world nations? The familiar gun-totting and firing in the air could easily take place here.

In anycase an extra 5-10,000 thousand troops seems paltry given the expanse of territory and the ability to bring real security for any duration of time.

Best case scenario all violence ends in Iraq tomorrow. Say the peace lasts for 2 years and we begin to withdrawal troops. It would only take one well placed shot at a cleric or one rpg round into a mosque and we would be back to where we started.

If we were sending an additional 125,000 troops I would agree that we should wait, but that isn't the case.

Anyways, glad to see you're around Nemont.

 

[NeMont]

I don't disagree with much of what you had to say. My questions were fairly straight forward. What is the rush? The timeline is Sept. the congression Republicans plus the Republican pres. candidates will not allow this thing to go on much longer. The democrats know they cannot allow anything that even appears to be working in Iraq because they are even less popular then GWB.

I never said we weren't there for oil, I asked a question though. If it were the only reason why did the first contracts and the most recent bids go to none U.S. owned companies.

We are not talking an expanse of territory that the surge is going into, it is primarily Baghdad. Baghdad is the center of gravity for this thing and most American troops are going there.

Whether or not Sunni and Shiite hate each other they coexisted prior to Saddam, they coexist all over the Middle east without killing each other.

If it is just religion then explain why Shiites groups are supplying Sunni groups and vice versa.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

What's the rush? you answered it yourself, the republicans would like some chance in the elections. September is only a few months away and the report out of Iraq today says most bench marks are not being met, nothing is going to change before September everone understands that. you say the dems can't afford this thing to work, you're probably right but I think they're safe there . what they're not safe with is the fact they didn't stop funding the war and shut Bush down, there's a price to be paid for that, the polls show it. if the republicans turn on Bush and start shutting the war down they'll take credit for doing what the dems failed to do , then get a candidate to switch to an anti war stand and he's sitting pretty. every war is political and just like Veitnam it can't go on forever.

 

[NeMont]

I think the Republicans will be willing to wait until Sept. to rule out any further "last chances" for success. The Dems cannot wait because any good news, Any at all, will be bad for them.

They ran on the ability to shut down the war but chose not to. They could have forced the issue but had neither the leadership nor the courage.

I still don't see a Republican candidate switching to anti war perhaps a change of course but there will be American troops fighting and dying in Iraq for another 5 to 10 years.

Nemont

 

[Forthewall]

I've purposely shutdown my mental input of Iraq over the last few weeks because I do not want it to hinder my Trivia Play. I would have to see which companies were awarded P.S.A.'s but I could guess Aramco, British Petroleum, and Dutch Shell? Political pay back to either play or stay on the sidelines.

Outside of Ron Paul who has consistantly been opposed to the war, none of the other candidates are considering a reflective stance on the matter. Too bad, I think even the most loyal of conservative supporters are finding more difficult daily to see the situation not progress given the time and money invested.

We can win 1,000 battles of the hearts and minds daily around Iraq, yet it only takes 1 car bomb and 3 man sniper team to take out 12 of our finest. It simply becomes a battle of attrition. When this occurs troops only serve as fodder.

Where do our soldiers go for pay-back when every attack is a hit and run mission?

I hope you are wrong on the 5-10 years, but you are probably correct. Hell, I hear we are now giving arms and ammo to Sunni leaders who vow to use the gifted weaponry against Al Queda.

Now I am curious to look into the P.S.A.'s and my trivia results will suffer and I will lose out on the cutting board...thanks.

 

[bobcatbess]

HEY Pro!!!

YOU GOT TO USE THAT ROUND THANG ATOP YOUR SHOULDERS JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE!!!

(((FIRST FLY-OVER IRAN!!!)))

(((SECOND FLY-OVER AFGANISTAN!!!)))

(((THIRD FLY-OVER IRAQ!!!)))

(((FOURTH FLY-OVER SYRIA!!!)))

DAMN ITS GONNA TAKE MORE THAN THAT & I'M STILL DOING MORE FLY-OVERS!!!

I'D LOCATE WHERE THEM LOW-LIFE BASTARDS HANG OUT IN SAUDI-ARABIA AND THEY'D GET ONE TOO!!!

I'D HAVE THE WORLDS ATTENTION & NOT THE WAY WE'VE BEEN GETTING ATTENTION THE LAST 10 YEARS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat KNOWING FOR A FACT ONLY THE STRONGEST SURVIVE IN THE END!!!

 

[huntindude]

If the republican nominee doesn't promise to pull all but a token amount of troops out of Iraq he won't be elected, end of story, this matter will take care of itself.

FTW you're right, I did read where we're arming Sunni groups fighting Al Quida, some of which have killed American troops. then when they're done we'll fight them, does anything ever change over there? we'll find a cure for cancer long before we find an cure for the middle east.

 

[bobcatbess]

I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

BUT YOU DON'T SEEM TO LIKE IT!!!

WAR IS HELL!!!

I'D SHOW THEM WHAT HELL IS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!!

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

AND FURTHER MORE!!!

I THINK THERES GONNA BE A SHORTAGE OF VIRGINS WHEN I GET DONE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!!

 

[NeMont]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

HD,
What do you consider a token force? 25,000? 40,000?

Just to man the new Embassy will take a good number of Marines.

I don't believe the Republican nominee will have to say they will bring the troops home.

The Hillary factor makes that unnecessary. Her positions on this war is going to exploited to the max and she will not renounce her vote to go to war. She cannot afford to look weak on Military issues.

That leaves the Republican nominee a lot of wiggle room. To get the nomination he most assuredly will not have to say he is bringing the troops home. Maybe redeploying them but not bringing them home.


Nemont

 

[202typical]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

"For a change rather than jumping right into personal attacks could we have some ideas on how to fix this if you think it can it be fixed ? remember we need something before September, eternity isn't an option. what should we do if things go as bad as some say it will?"

Pulling out/phased withdraw/cut and run leftist ideas are wrong on all levels. That much any expert will tell you. It may never be perfect or fixed to our standards. The best we can hope for is some level of stability in Iraq. The path we have chosen must be made to work. Training Iraqi forces and giving the government a foot hold. Construction has begun on U.S. military bases over there so that tells me we are there for the long long haul. i.e. Germany, Philipines, Japan, North Korea ect. ect.

If the Liberal Dems truely believe in a cut and run strategy then they should defund the war. They should put their money where their mouth is and get after defunding. But they wont. and why do you think that is Dude? Hmmm...............I mean after all you claim over 2/3rds of the American public is against the war, against Bush, wants us out of Iraq ASAP. So why is it Dude your Dems won't defund? I will wait for your incorrect answer and then tell you why.

 

[huntindude]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

The promise of ending the war gave the dems a landslide in the mid terms, they haven't delivered. there is a window of opportunity for the republicans if they write Bush off as a loser and promise a new direction. since the anger directed at the dems is do to the fact they didn't stop the war what in the world makes you think anyone running on a pro war platform has a Chinaman's chance? com'on. one thing to remember is while many dems and moderates are ticked at the dems right now,they'll still vote for an anti war dem over a pro war republican, niether side can win without the swing vote. this is probably the reason Thompson is still sitting on his thumbs, he knows his pro war position will make him unelectable if things dont change in a MAJOR way, he's right.

 

[huntindude]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

202 , while I'm sure you've got some goofy slant to throw at this the real answer is clear. the dems knew if they cut the funding it would be seen as not supporting the troops. it's not as simple as just saying " no ", it would have been a mess without cooperation from the whitehouse.
a normal president cares what the majority of people want and what congress wants and reaches a compromise, no chance here.

Last weeks poll says 67% disapprove of the Bush's handling of the war, that's pretty close to 2/3 wouldn't you say? OK it's shuck and jive time, tell us about little green men, vampires or whatever the real reason is the dems won't cut funding. don't say it's because they fear they'ld be responsible for the imminant attack on our soil from an Iraqi. stick to a death star story or something , we know every last terrorist doesn't live in Iraq by now . lay it on us, this should be good.

 

[NeMont]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-07 AT 11:58AM (MST)[p]Tell me what Republican is going to get nominated by coming out as "anti war"? None, zip, nada, zero. That doesn't mean that the nominee won't articulate a plan the results in shutting down the war.

Tell which of the current front running Republicans including Thompson are going to alienate the right wing of the Republican party? That will mean they cannot and will not win the Republican nomination.

Hillary is going to be the Democratic candidate, period. Kind of like the Katie Couric deal you have to wonder how many Americans want her running the country. She polls well among single moms and died in the wool dems but look at her numbers for people like herself, white female married moms, she has more negative then positive. She cannot run as a peace candidate because of her entrenched positions on the GWOT.

A smarter strategy would be distance yourself from the administration, explain a concise and understandable strategy for leaving Iraq, Including the fact that it will be worst then anyone imagines it to be, state that resources current going to Iraq will flow to the Afghan Theatre and to allied nations who are fighting terrorist.

I do not forsee a scenario in which a Republican nominee can openly come out against the war and expect to win anything except the consolation prize. Paint Hillary into a corner and force her to reveal herself for the wicked witch that she is and a smart Republican could still squeak into the White House.

The current phase of this war in Iraq is going to wind down after Sept. and then a withdrawl will begin shortly after that. Unless we are attacked on the U.S. mainland during that time then all bets are off. That is the only real wild card out there

Nemont

 

[202typical]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

Well said Nemont.
Now on to Dude. You are partially corect when you say the Dems will not defund cause they don't want to be seen as against the troops (when in reality they despise the military but thats another story) The truth is the Dems, almost every single one of them, voted to invade Iraq. They know as well as Bush does we can not cut and run. Their party line talking points are meerly a smoke screen devised to pander to their base and other nuts that wish to tuck tail and run. They are simply playing polotics in order to gain power and the whitehouse. They will say and do most anything no matter how out there. Example Dirty Harry ried syaing "the war is lost" or "Bush is a murderer" or this is Bush's war" or any other bunch of lies. They know we can not leave. Now if we follow your prediction that it is a slam dunk for the Dems to take the whitehouse what makes you think they are going to pull out. It ain't happening my friend. The Dems do not want to be seen as the party of defeat in Iraq, even though right now they own defeat. Once they get in 08 they will sing a much different tune.
As for the 2/3 of spineless Americans against the war in Iraq sadly it will take something greater than 911 to bring them arround.

 

[huntindude]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

202 if the dems own defeat it's because Bush sold it to them. I said there is a slim chance the republicans could pull off a win if they distance themselves fron Bush and promise to end the war, if they don't then yes the dems have a slam dunk. again with the reference to Iraq and 9/11, even the dumbest Americans have figured out there's no connection so save that one for the kids. Bush has been done for a while now, as Nemont says short of a miracle the war will be winding down starting in September, accept it.

Nemont I agree with most of that, yes other than Paul no republican can say he's anti war, but a good plan to end the war in a quick fashion might be acceptable to swing voters like myself. I hope that comes about, which ever candidate smart enough to do this is had better not wait until September to announce it if they want to claim that stand, the rest will climb on that boat too late and sink themselves. I can't stress enough how much I'd like a moderate republican to win the nomination, but as divided as this country is right now I don't think either party will give us anything but an extremist. Hillary will win over a republican hardliner without question, the republicans must adapt to reality or die, politics are no different than nature.

 

[RELH]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

when dude speaks about Bush having a majority of Americans feeling he has done a poor job, as usual dude only gives the half that fits his liberal agenda. What he failed to say was that the liberal press is now saying' via their polls, that it looks almost certain that Hillary has enought support among the Dem party that she will get their nod to run. But a survey of people in general, not just Dems. only, gives her a 50% chance at BEST of winning the general election. He also failed to mention, another of his oversights, that the same polls that give Bush poor ratings, also gave the same percentage of poor ratings to the Dem. controlled congress for their poor performance after failing to keep their election promises.
How about the polls that show Fred Thompson has gained second place in the polls for the GOP candidate and he has not offically entered the race for President. I think he has got the Dems crapping in their pink panties and leotards. I don't call them "panty waists" for nothing.

RELH

 

[NeMont]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

HD,

I think you are confusing the nomination process with the general election. A swing voter is meaningless in securing a parties nomination.

Your vote currently doesn't matter to either party because the nominations will be decided by New Hampshire, California, Iowa and New York. Maybe Ohio and Missouri as well. So there is no need for a candidate to state firm position on anything because the nominations won't be complete until February of 2008 and then the real run for the general election will begin.

Your vote won't matter for another year and five months. Nov. of 2008 is the date you need to worry about. Alot can happen between now and then. Hillary may be knocked off of her broom by then due to a temper tantrum. With 24 hour media there is no way she can go that long without a blow up.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

I understand that, it's the general election that counts. that's where the swing voter decides the election. my point was I'd hope the republicans are smart enough give us a moderate republican choice, a hardliner win in the primary means a loss in the general. you're right a lot of water will run under the bridge befor Nov '08, but it seems to be sweeping Bush and the war away for now

RELH your hate for anything moderate clouds your judgment. we don't know if it will be Hillary and who will her running mate be? if it's Obama she's going to be tough to beat. Thompson may be the republican front runner if he gets off his butt and make a decision ,but if he does there's a pile of trashing ready for him by his republican rivals. from what they're saying already he's got some work ethic problems they're going to hammer him on. we all know all about Hillary and she's got problems but before Nov '08 well know much more than we want to about her oppositions problems. you may very well end up with Giulianni and if he wakes up and backs off his war support I'd vote for him over Hillary, he's the closest thing to a moderate out there. if the primary were held today he's who I'd vote for, he may have a chance in the general also.

 

[RELH]

RE: I'VE GOT THE CURE!!!

dude;
read my post again, I am not the one that is saying Hillary will be running for the Dem. party, it is the liberal press on last nights news. they are saying she appears to be the one that will take the Dem. primary by their poll count, but it was only a 50-50 chance at best if she wins the general election. As for Obama, their poll was showing him dropping further behind hillary with his own party. Out side his party he will more then likely do even worse. So a Hillary-Obama team may not be that great of a winner, in fact it may sink the Dem party for the seat in the white house.
As for Giulianni vs. Thompson, I will not even call that one on who gets their primary to run for president. that one can go either way at this point.
By the way, how is hades can you say that I have a "hate" for anything moderate. I am more moderate then right wing. I hope you were not referring to Hillary or Obama being moderates, Hillary is the biggest left winger there is next to Pelosi and Feinstein. Obama is starting to look more liberal then moderate in several of his speeches.

RELH