Sitka-Question

[cbeard]

"Hello.My name is Clay and I am a gearaholic."

With that confession I admit I am looking forward to Sitka's new 2009 lineup. BUT, in all my trial and error over many years I have learned a couple of things:

1)Most of the time the best gear never changes-it was a good idea to start with and it is still good now; and

2)When gear is overhyped that is a red flag-i.e. that this product is "100% effective" or this jacket can "do it all", etc.,etc.

As a result, I have always been a little wary of the Sitka line of products.Their reps come on sites like this one and overhype them to the max.(That's why I appreciate Wade's site and input so much.)

And their products change every year with the new "latest and greatest" lineup complete with a new name(and a new higher price).Being weak and unable to resist,I have bought a couple of pieces to the tune of about $450-pieces that are now admitted by the company to be inferior to the new lineup.(I can only imagine how the guys who have purchased the entire line of products(maybe twice!) feel.

So my question is: Is this it Sitka? Have you gotten your stuff where you want it to be? Or are we going to see a new lineup and a new "come-on" every year?

 

[rradams]

+1

Unfortunately I believe for a company to be cutting edge, products will change almost yearly as new technologies, fabrics, manufacturing techniques, etc become available.

I really like Sitka gear and have no affiliation with the company. That said, I share your frustration with the constant change. However, I'm not so sure the the changes in reality are that big. They definitely get the hype, but I haven't seen a HUGE difference in the performance of their products from year to year.

 

[HardcoreOutdoor]

cbeard

I have written over a hundred articles that ended with this footer and the first line goes directly to the point you raise.

?Sorting through the fads and fashion of the outdoor equipment industry to identify and promote the very best wilderness gear for high end recreational users, backcountry professionals and government agencies.

Hardcore Outdoor is dedicated to those who can't or won't turn back.?

I have an open, notorious and long running beef with the outdoor equipment industry because I think that they sold out a long time ago and have become way too much like the fashion industry. Case in point, they change their line up every 10 minutes just for the sake of changing. They call it keeping things fresh and new. I call it marketing shtick where they are trying to put one over on the consumer by changing the color and the name and calling it new or switching to a different insulation just because it is the bandwagon of the week. Too many of their "cutting edge" features end up to be passing fads. That is why I give more attention to what I call boutique companies like Western Mountaineering, Kifaru, Mystery Ranch, Eberlestock, Wiggys, Integral Designs, Wildthings, Tad Gear etc. They seem to be much more comfortable with who they are and what they produce. They are not grasping at straws. Their products change but only occasionally to introduce an addition to the line or a technical improvement of an existing piece. They seem to put their best foot forward all the time unlike the other guys that always hold a little something back for next time.

It should also be pointed out that those other guys are big corporations run by JDs, CPAs, MBAs or suits as I to collectively call them. They don't make outdoor gear they make widgets or units and they sure as hell don't use them like I use my gear. To them it is a business plain and simple. The boutique companies are business people too but they are gear guys first and still passionate about what they do. They are out there hanging and banging and using that gear on a regular basis.

With all due respect to what you wrote, Sitka is in the boutique group. They were and still are users that got a wild hair up their ass and decided that they could do it better. They have not been around all that long so I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and classify their line changes as evolution. Progress. The truth is, at least from my perspective, they have gotten better. For example, the Downpour to the Nimbus is proof of their progress and I am hoping that the 09 Gore-Tex gear represents another step or two up the ladder but it may take a couple of tries to fine tune it, dial it in and nail it. I am willing to hang in there with them because I think they are the ones that will get us to where we want to be. If not, you can bet your sweet bippy that I will speak up.

With regard to their guys posting on these forums. I understand that they are flying the flag and that is OK with me but they better know the gear. Corey does and while we have disagreed on some techniques or philosophies I respect his experience and I think we both want the same thing. Great gear. Jared isn't quite there yet. You can't come on here of all places late to the discussion and tout Sitka as the greatest thing since Astroglide then write in your posts that you are biased, new to Sitka and still learning their gear and not be able to answer basic questions about the products. It is not credible, looks bad for the brand and made me wonder how he got on their pro staff. You might fly at Bass Pro but not here. This crowd is too sharp.

Anyway, that is my two cents. Hope you don't mind me chiming in and thank you for the compliment. It is appreciated.

I too am a gearaholic but I have no interest in being cured.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com

 

[cbeard]

I'm glad to hear you testify Wade-if you advise patience then that will be my approach also. My hope is for this line to be Sitka's "got it right" culmination with just tweaks and improvements with technology from here on out.

I will admit I would feel a little more comforted if the Sitka guys would assure us in that regard because I have seen even small companies with good intentions turn into big companies and go over to the "dark side".I'm a bowhunter and IMO Mathews has done this-they come out with a new "gotta-have-it" bow every year and many of them are inferior to their previous designs.

Again, not to blow smoke up your a##, but that's why knowledgeable,INDEPENDENT, guys who evalute gear honestly are so valuable to the consumer like me. Not many of you guys around anymore because it seems 99% of the guys in the outdoor industry are taking $$$ from and beholden to the gear companies. Heck, articles and TV shows look more like infomercials than outdoor adventures. Everybody on here knows what I mean...(I'm afraid the fact that the "shillers" often make out like bandits says as much about us as a consumeristic society as it does about them.But that's another topic I guess...)

Anyway,keep on pluggin' and time will tell on Sitka.

Clay

 

[HardcoreOutdoor]

Great post Clay. I agree. I don't begrudge anyone making a good living or even a really good living but big money tends to change things.

You can't accept money or sell advertising and remain independent and objective regarding those same companies/products. Beware of shillers.

Take care and best regards,

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com

 

[gznokes]

This is a wierd post to me. On the one hand I agree that sometimes companies make little tweeks and change names and lines and materials without a real customer upside. On the other hand that is the price of progress. To ask Sitka if "this is it?" is ridiculous. Innovation comes in small steps.

I hope they change their stuff every year. if they don't do a good job people won't buy it and they won't stay in business.

90 percent of the time when companies change things its bc they are following the consumer. It is MUCH more difficult to dictate tastes and preferences to consumers.

Go buy any of the Sitka gear, don't have unrealistic expectations, and chances are it will work well for you.

 

[HardcoreOutdoor]

I totally disagree with your assessment that 90% of the time companies change to follow the consumer. In fact, I would argue based on my experience in the industry as a buyer, a consultant, a manufacturers representative and as a member of the media, most of the time change results from competition between the companies. They are always looking for something that will distinguish them from the other guys. Good ideas stick and are adopted by the masses and the bad ideas die off only to be imitated and resurrected later by somebody else.

Change is good if it is in the form of technological or production progress. Practical evolution. Change is bad, in my opinion, if it is just to sell more widgets. Unfortunately, I see a great deal more of the later than the former. I hestate to put a number on it because it is a total SWAG but I would say 75% of the line changes you see from the big boys are initiated by their marketing cupcakes whose idea of a long, cold, wet day in the field is walking around the big puddles in the parking lot to get to the Starbucks where it is warm and dry. It is a fashion dominated business now which is why Sitka is so unique and special.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com

 

[gznokes]

Hardcore, You are one of the good guys on this site and you have a great gear website that I like to visit so just hear me out.

Sincerely, how can you say that a company does not make changes to their product to follow the customer 90% of the time? When you say companies make changes to differentiate themselves from the competition in my book that is just another way of saying they are trying to reach more or a different targeted customer. I'm just arguing basic business. Why would any company make a change to their product unless they thought it would be more appealing to the customers? Those incremental changes--whether they be technological or fashion or whatever are usually to reach more customers. If they do a good job they make more money, which allows them to compete better. The best change a company can make is one to sell more widgets. Then they get more money and they can innovate more.

You have a very practical eye for quality and innovation. I just think you are promoting the idea of consumer victimization, when in reality it is the consumer who is powerful--especially in the outdoor industry.

 

[HardcoreOutdoor]

gznokes,

I was right there with you until the last paragraph. Victimization is not how I would describe it and if that is how it sounds than I am sorry, I have failed to adaquately write what I meant. I guess we could both make our cases for which comes first the chicken or the egg but I have seen it happen too many times where a great product goes away or is modified into something totally different because it didn't sell enough or sales did not grow enough is more likely the reasons that the pencil pushers made a change. It is much like my problem with many of the gear awards. Every year there is a new batch of winners which leads me to believe that either last years winners really were not very good or they are just spreading the love around ie marketing. The best is the best and it should stay that way until something better comes along to knock it of the pedistal. Most of the gear awards I see today are not very credible.

Please don't get me wrong, I am pro business and capitalism, I just prefer the companies that still have their feet planted firmly in the users camp. Meaning the users are the priority not the sales growth.

I base my opinion on what I have seen but also what I hear from the reps. Actually, now that I think about it, things are just as they should be. There is a small group of makers out there that are users themselves and cater to us. Then there is the majority of makers that cater to their own whims and follow the fashion model which is keep it fresh, change it up sell, sell, sell. It works for them because most consumers are not very discerning. They see what is new and hot and served up to them in the magazines and they buy it. So maybe the system works just fine. I just know who I like to work with.

I am after the best and do tend to be pretty narrow minded in that respect. Maybe it is not fair to paint the entire industry with a brush meant for the relative few that I think are worthy of our attention and patronage. Something to think about I spose.

Admittedly, I do harbor a little animosity to the monolithic faceless corporations because they have basicly ignored this genre for so long despite the fact that we outnumber and outspend their favorite target customer. Best I can tell based on many years of observation and talking with people, it is the guns. They just can't see past the guns.

Anyway, that is another topic altogether. I see what you are saying. Let me noodle on that for a why.

Thanks.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com

 

[Steve_Montana]

I think 90% of the gear sold today is made to catch more hunters and fishermen... than animals and fish.

I market for a living and in our American society we are so programmed that we always need bigger and better and this years model. In order to be put on the shelf of a store you have to have the sizzle that the customer is looking for NOW.

How many of us have 3 year old cell phones?

Today I was at SW and the manager of the clothing section told me they are not restocking several top name brands because they don't move off the shelves fast enough in "other" states so even though they move well here in MT... they are "eighty-six'd" (booted)

Manufactures compete for shelf space. The consumer is the boss and decides who stays and goes. The manufacture has to keep the consumer buying... period.

 

[HardcoreOutdoor]

In that respect, then I guess we are in charge. We have allowed Madison Avenue to breed us into a country of on demand consumers and quick disposers. We only have ourselves to blame then.

I can't help but think that is a big part of why we find ourselves in such a finanical pickle right now.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com

 

[gznokes]

Ok, maybe my "consumer victimization" declaration was a little strong but it really goes back to the age old marketing 101 debate. Are companies more successful that follow customer trends or are they more successful by setting trends? As someone who works in marketing I really feel that setting trends is much more difficult than following trends. Ideally cutting edge marketing catches onto early trends and rides the leading edge. (But this is all stuff for a different website.)

Sitka was brillant by jumping into hunting with their softshell products. I'm the type of hunter who goes to the field with mountaineering gear--Arteryx, North Face. I do own some Sitka 90% pants but tend to like the afore mentioned mountaineering stuff because frankly it is more fashionably versitile for the other stuff like skiing that I do.

 

[HardcoreOutdoor]

gznokes

two comments.

1. Sitka was started because they were users. Frustrated users because they couldn't get mountaineering level hunting gear. The market was not meeting their need so they did it themselves.

2. You need more gear! If you are going to be a true gearaholic then you have to have more gear. This double duty stuff is not good.

Anyway, I hear what you are saying. Good talking with you.

Regards,

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com

 

[cbeard]

Good discussion,guys.

Like I mentioned in my second post,the fact that the "shillers" make out like bandits probably says more about our consumeristic society than them.

Field and Stream's "Best of the Best" awards are a perfect example. About 10 years ago their premise was to scour the gear world and only award the gear that was truly innovative regardless of what type of gear it was.The first couple of years the number of pieces of gear awarded ranged from as little as 6 or so up to about 10.

Guess what? That annual issue sold like hotcakes. So what did they do? You guessed it-they expanded it to about half the magazine with every conceivable category of gear represented.And it's twice a year-hunting and fishing. The big companies jumped on board with advertising which(remarkably) is often for the same gear being "awarded". So now it is in reality meaningless to the hardcore user.

But I have no doubt it sells a lot of stuff.So who's to blame? Us or them? I'll leave that one for you guys....

 

[BUGLELK]

I wasn't going to jump in here, being a Sitka "rep" and all...FYI, I don't get paid a penny for what I do and I have zero financial interest in Sitka. In fact, I have no financial interest in the hunting industry at all. I have simply tried almost everything available in the line-up of technical gear for hunters and when I got my first set of Sitka Gear, I knew it was, and still is, the best available.

Cbeard, if you are hoping that Sitka is going to stop pushing the envelope and revolutionizing technical hunting gear, you are going to be waiting a long, long time. Every single year since Sitka was introduced there have been companies who have tried to copy their designs. Unfortunately for those companies, they were one more year behind where Sitka was technically. Will there be pieces of the gear that remain in Sitka's line from year-to-year? Absolutely. But if you own a set of Sitka Gear, you will not own the latest-greatest thing for more than 365 days.

Wade, thanks for the compliment. Obviously, we have disagreed on the use of soft-shells, but I think we have both seen enough products to know that our opinion of one piece of gear might not be the same as another guys.

However, to say that Jared Bloomgren is not a credible source of info for outdoor gear is absolutely untrue. The guy has belly-crawled into bow-range of more deer in nasty weather, and killed more big animals than you and I combined, and although he may be new to Sitka Gear's Pro Staff, he is no-doubt very experienced in quality gear. His evaluation of Sitka Gear and his initial impression of it are extremely valuable, both to Sitka Gear and to guys on a message board. And I'm not sure why he can't come on here "of all places" and tout Sitka as the greatest thing he's ever used, regardless of his involvement, his length of use, or the fact that he doesn't have his own website. At least he was upfront and not once misleading. The only thing I saw that he didn't answer was a question about the sizing on the 4500cu bivy pack...having not personally used every piece of gear, he admitted he couldn't answer and asked me to help the guy out.

Corey

 

[cbeard]

"But if you own a set of Sitka Gear,you will not own the latest-greatest thing for more than 365 days."

That's what I was afraid of...

The 'greatest' I want-the 'latest' I couldn't care less about.Sorry, but I have a difficult time believing a company that revamps its products on an annual basis is not just changing for the sake of change to sell more product.Seen it too often everywhere in the industry.

Thanks for posting.

 

[BUGLELK]

Cbeard,

I'd say if you aren't at all concerned about the "latest & greatest" then go buy the current line of Sitka gear. It is hands down better than anything available right now, and if you aren't worried about something new coming out that is better, the current line of gear will serve you well for many, many years.

A company that isn't progressing and pushing the envelop is falling behind. Had Sitka not came along 3 years ago, most hunters would still be wearing cotton. I guess the good thing about cotton is that you don't have to worry about them changing for the sake of change...

Take care,
Corey

 

[HardcoreOutdoor]

I am sure Jared is a great guy and a fantastic hunter but being new, biased and unfamiliar with the gear makes his endorsement of Sitka as the greatest merely interesting at best.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com

 

[cbeard]

Hi Corey-

Before Sitka was even conceived I was using some pretty good gear-and none of it was cotton.And some of it was better than the Sitka gear I've tried.(And still is, by the way.)

Saying Sitka is hands down the best gear out there and giving Sitka all the credit for hunters getting away from cotton is just the kind of hyperbole and overhyping I have been discussing.....sorry but it makes me want to run for the hills.

I hope this 2009 stuff really is the best gear ever-many guys who are much more knowledgeable than me (like Wade) are really excited. But if it really is the best, why would you need to change it every year other than to sell more product? Because I have lived long enough to know if something really is the best,it stays that way for a long time.

 

[BUGLELK]

Cbeard,

Just curious, what camoflage hunting gear have you used (or do you use) that you feel is better than Sitka, and why do you feel it is better? I'll admit, a better phrase than saying "most hunters would still be wearing cotton" would have been "many hunters would still be wearing cotton", I didn't mean to come across as giving credit to Sitka for all hunters getting away from cotton. However, Sitka was the first complete option for a true layering system for bowhunters.

As far as not needing to improve on what is deemed to be the best, I disagree 100%. Perhaps it isn't necessary to improve on what is "good enough", but the reason that something is considered the best is because it stays ahead of the competition. That goes for anything. A great archer will continue practicing and looking for any advantage he can find to distance himself from the competition. A great runner will alter diets and workout routines to continue to improve and stay ahead of the competition. And a great gear company will continue to sample new materials and develop new ideas to improve upon their line, to widen the gap between them and their competitors. Like Cameron Hanes says, every time he is working out he is either getting one step closer to the guy in front of him, or one step farther ahead of the guy behind him.

I haven't seen many (any) guys at the IBO shoots that are shooting a Jennings T-star lately. I haven't seen any NBA players wearing the old Converse canvas shoes recently. No one in a bass fishing tournament using an old cane pole. The guys in the 1000 yard nationals aren't shooting open-sight 30-30's....innovation raises the bar in every aspect of life and enables us to improve upon the things that we are doing. True, there are some things that are nothing more than creative marketing and hype. Sitka Gear, however, is not, in my experience, one of them.

 

[cbeard]

Corey-

I'm really not trying to get in a debate about my gear with you and I appreciate your passion.Gear choices are subjective, but if you want some ideas about what many hardcore users like look at Wade's site. (Admittedly not all of it is camo,but that is your qualifier,not mine.)

And I really also don't want to argue too much the point about "the best" not changing every year. Sure, new and wonderful innovations come along and those are almost always adopted because they work better and are,well,...innovative.You give some good examples.But for Sitka to say it will come up with a revolutionary line every year like clockwork still sounds a whole lot more like marketing to me than reality.

I've been around a while and, while I've seen companies big and small come up with great improvements and innovations, I've not seen one yet that comes up with revolutionary ones every year. Although I've seen MANY claim they do to move product(think camo companies, rifle makers,bow manufacturers,etc.).


All you guys are very passionate and since I've been posting on this topic here and on one other site I've been contacted by no less than 3 Sitka sales reps wanting me to pre-order the new line sight unseen.I will say this- if your R&D department is half as active as your marketing department we are in for some good products.

All I ask is that you let the customer be the judge on that score.

Talk to you later,Clay

 

[Steve_Montana]

Clay,

Your sentiments are shared.

I know I do want a high-tech shell and I just picked up the Sitka Nimbus only because it was on deep discount.

Also I have been really tempted with going with a full line up of Sitka this year. But then I start thinking about all the past years of hunting and looking at the gear I already own and how well it has worked for me.

You know those $10 army surplus wool pants I bought several years ago have helped keep me pretty warm sitting in the snow for hours on end... and that $65 Polartec jacket and sweats I bought for the Alaska fishing trip pack light and really keep me warm when I need to put them on in a chill. And those desert marine bdu's that I realy like that I bought for $35 on ebay that my buddies always tell me they lose sight of me pretty fast... I really like all those handy pockets... also I wear then 90% of the time unless its raining hard or the snow is wet and deep. Also I have been wearing poly base layers for years and the stuff keeps me warm year after year.

So I guess when I look at all the good wool an poly I already own that probably amounts to less than $200 that has worked so well for me over the years... it makes me ask myself how much more do I really need.

 

[cabinfever]

I don't have deep pockets like some hunters who can afford the buy it and try it method every year. That said, I have tried a lot of gear over the years and the sitka clothing is the best out there.Lets face it, hunting can be down right brutal and miserable at times, but if we can invest in gear that actually works it will keep us in the woods longer and allow us to hunt harder and stay menatlly tough.

There is no hype to the sitka gear. It's the real deal......unfortunately at a hefty price tag.