Small bit of pot stirring/questions for Montanans

mtAl

Active Member
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120
I would like other Montana's thoughts on the stuff below:

So, there I was a year ago spewing my somewhat conservative views to a good friend who's a serious hunter. I think our Democrat Governor is a bully and an embarrassment and our President is pathetic and we were talking about it in general.

He mentioned that he doesn't follow any particular party, like my self, but asked me some pointed questions about Montana State politics:

-what party gives outfitters all the rights they want and doesn't hardly try to hold them to any standards?
-what party is most likely to encourage more public hunter access to public land? (I reminded him that the State Land access AND Block Management were granted under a Republican Governor)
-(similar to above) what party is more likely to actually do something proactive to give the public some access to land-locked public land that outfitters get access to?
-what party would be more likely to sell off public land or mine it/drill it if they had the opportunity? (I like jobs but I also like to hunt public land)
-what party caves to every farm/ranch request even though approximately 30% of their income is from subsidies AND a minority of voters actually work in the farm and ranch industry? (I think both parties do)
-what elected Montana Democrat is against gun ownership?

He got me good and pissed off but I think he had some good points. His point was that we hunters and gun owners are mostly conservative but that our "party" IN HIS VIEW doesn't really look out for anything for us other than gun ownership rights. He is also active in monitoring complaints against outfitters and guides and harassment of hunters (some of which I logged against a land owner and two guides, you're welcome) and is really pissed off at some conservatives who are supposed to enforce the issue but don't very often.

As for me: I liked that he provoked me to push the issue with Republicans about public access to public land and not just for grazing, encouraging Republican law makers to look out for Johnny-normal-hunter in Montana who's losing access at a rapid rate and isn't only interested in gun rights, but the opportunity to have some place to hunt.

We still have tons of public land to hunt on, some really good Block Management and too much Forest Service to hunt in a life time. We're all very blessed to live here.

Thoughts?
 
>I think your senator is a
>drunk.


Think? He IS a drunk. Dog gone that was a funny video. We came up with a few answers that may come from his staff:
-He was working hard on health care and was tired. So tired that he slurred like a drunken idiot.
-His passionate fight for the down trodden lead him to get very passionate. So passionate that he slurred like a drunken idiot.
-He has been working long hours and was excited to get home to Montana. So excited that he got wicked drunk.
 
mtAl,

I have had a very heated discussion with my local local Representative, he is a Republican, I donate to his campaign etc. He is as pro outfitter as it gets, when I asked him to not support the new antelope guaranteed tags in the last legislature I got a very pointed reply. So being that I knew him personally I picked up the phone and called his cell phone number he had given me.

Well the call ended with that I would support who ever runs against his sorry @ss and supported on giving more of our wildlife away to the highest bidder. About 15 minutes later he returned my call and read me riot act that I didn't understand that he was trading votes and yada yada. I remained calm and explained that I don't care what he was doing to buy and sell his votes just that on this one issue he should vote no.

The Republicans of this state are owned by the outfitter lobby.

That being said, I detest the Montana Democrat party as they are sell outs to the other extreme. Schweitzer only cares about what happens on Reservations. John Tester is an embarassment and Max is not really from Montana anymore as the bulk of his campaign funds come from K Street in DC.

Nemont
 
Whats wrong with guaranteed antelope tags? It would not effect your resident drawing status at all and it supports your beloved block managment program.

I agree Tester and Max are terrible, I will support nothing from them after they both supported the czar Cass Sustain who wants to ban hunting.
 
>
>The Republicans of this state are
>owned by the outfitter lobby.
>
>
>That being said, I detest the
>Montana Democrat party as they
>are sell outs to the
>other extreme.
>
>Nemont

I would add that the Republicans are also owned by the farm and ranch lobby in addition to the outfitters.

There, in a nutshell, is our problem. The normal middle class sportsmen/women doesn't have much representation unless we scream bloody murder. We outnumber the outfitters in numbers and economic impact by a huge margin but don't have priority.

We still have it very, very good and I'm glad that private land owners can outfit and profit from hunting, but it has gotten rediculous in the last 20 years.
 
>Whats wrong with guaranteed antelope tags?
>It would not effect your
>resident drawing status at all
>and it supports your beloved
>block managment program.
>

Are you kidding? Why should outfitters or anyone get guaranteed antelope tags or any other tags? The only purpose for those tags is to boost an already subsidized (use of public land, profit from state-"owned" wildlife, state tourism dollars as part of their advertising budget, etc.) business.

I have NO problem at all with out of state hunters. I've hunted with several and will do it again. I have a huge problem with how the management of wildlife for the profit of a specific business sector impacts my access to land and my ability to hunt. Specifically how it impacts locals is that guides and outfitters, more than anyone wants to admit, bring their dudes to public land, across public land, etc. I've seen it and turned them in (with license plate and picture of the vehicle) and NOTHING has happend to the outfitter.

The impact on resident drawing status has nothing to do with it for me.

Calling block management "beloved" is an overstatement. It's a very good program but it plenty of problems. If outfitters didn't have so much say in how wildlife and hunting was managed block management would be a bunch better.
 
Actually outfitting is a dying and weak industry, subsidized not even remotly.I assume that what you really dislike about outfitting is leased land? When the variable priced license (guranteed)is gone do you think that Joe rancher will let the public drive all over his place to shoot the big one like 20 years ago? I'm here to tell you no.

Also how do you think block managment is funded? It's from outfitter sponsored tags. How would you replace those funds after the big bad outfitter is gone? I will also state that block managment is a poor program that destroys wildlife...

As far as public land use outfitters, farmers and ranchers pay each agency for use. What do you contribute?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-10 AT 09:29PM (MST)[p]Skipbuck,
Figure out a different tree to bark up. There are 130,000 resident tags sold in this state and we could replace every dollar collected from the Outfitter Sponored tags by placing a $30 fee on those resident tags.

Montana residents should fund their own access because they should not be beholden to Outiftters and have that held over their head. I could care less whether landowners lease their land for hunting, that land is private property and it has to pay for itself one way or the other. Also if Outfitter sponsored tags are done away with I don't believe a single acre of land would go into public access. For me that is not the issue.

Guaranteed licenses are a state subsidy whether one wants to believe it or not. If it were not the Outfitters would not fight tooth and nail to keep. Why do outfitters fear the free market by putting all those tags into the general drawing pool and then marketing their services to those who draw? Seems strange that the rugged individuals, like Outfitters protray themselves fear competing for business.

As for what the what farmers and ranchers pay to use public lands bark up a different tree there also. Not every rancher is entitled to graze those lands, only a select priveleged few. The leases are not open to competitive bidding so the public can maximize the revenue from their property. Instead there is a restrictive grazing permit issued that has below market grazing rates given to the chosen, Again the ag guys mostly vote Republican but they greatly fear free markets.

Don't think for a moment I am anti agriculture because I am not. I grew up on a ranch, my inlaws ranch and have grazing permits on BLM lands. I am a more pure conservative who believes giving government subsidy's to a few chosen citizens while denying everyone the chance to compete for those same subsidy's is no different then welfare.

So bark up a different tree.

Nemont
 
>Actually outfitting is a dying and
>weak industry, subsidized not even
>remotly.

You're wrong on all counts. It's not dying unless the outfitter breaks rules and gets busted and it's very, very subsidized. You don't get it. Plain and simple. Outfitting dying is a laugh.

>I assume that what you
>really dislike about outfitting is
>leased land?

Wrong, again. I stated and agree with the a private land owner leasing their land, outfitting, etc.. I've adapted quite well over the last 20 years.

>When the variable
>priced license (guranteed)is gone do
>you think that Joe rancher
>will let the public drive
>all over his place to
>shoot the big one like
>20 years ago?

No, again, not the point. Joe rancher didn't let people driave all over his place in the first place.

>
>Also how do you think block
>managment is funded?

I'm aware how its funded and think that everyone should pay for thier own access. Block management is the only thing that keeps the state's constituency from a tea party type event.

>I will also state
>that block managment is a
>poor program that destroys wildlife...
>

Hilarious! Destroys wildlife! You're plain wrong.

>
>As far as public land use
>outfitters, farmers and ranchers pay
> each agency for use.

They pay a subsidized below market rate. They DONT have to pay to graze the land if they don't want to. They pay because they make so much money off of the public's grass. You clearly don't get it.

>What do you contribute?

Taxes, fees, state land access, tags, licenses, bonus points in addition to donations to conservation organizations. And, unlike ranchers who "pay" to make a profit (which I would do in a heartbeat if I were them) I don't make any money off of it.

You need to educate yourself a bit before spouting off.
 
Nemont,

Thanks but I'm familiar with how blm and state land leases work. You are still off about Outfitters being subsidized by the state. All outfitters after 1996 had to buy Net Client Hunting Use either from the state or from other outfitters. So mtal can understand, that means outfitters have to buy the rights to sell the variable priced tags. Doesn't sound like a subsidy to me, might even be free market?
 
It is a subsidy when it is a closed system. Without the state granting the right to the privilegedfew the tags would go back into the general draw where everyone has equal chance to them not just those with money. Outfitter fear having to compete for their clients. They paid nothing close to market value for the NCHU back in 1996.

It is not a free market because the system is closed and the government benefit is flowing only to the privileged not letting all compete. If if makes you feel better thinking it is not a subsidy fine think as you wish, but without the subsidy alot of those outfitters would go out of business because nobody would buy from substandard outfitters. The guaranteed tags prop up marginal outfitters. The board of outfitters is a complete and total joke.

In addition you must not be well versed in BLM leases if you think that is not also a subsidized system. The way to make money in the cattle business is to get in on the almost free grazing subsidized by the taxpayers. Nothing wrong with it but to pretend it is not a subsidy it stupid. Then on top if it ask what hunters do for public lands is double stupid.

Nemont
 

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