Southern RAC for the 2022 season

lostinOregon said:
Maybe we should issue more tags since killing all the bucks doesn't matter. Hell, it was right there in front of us the w


As far as building a herd goes, unless those bucks had uteruses, the cold hard truth is its one deer.

A doe is possibly 3 deer, PER YEAR, for years.

Not hard to figure out where the emphasis needs to be.


Further, I keep saying it, I keep waiting to see where I'm wrong

Utah cut 135,000 tags. (Roughly 40%) Three decades later, our deer herd is roughly the same size. So how, exactly did tag cuts grow the herd? Yes, fewer buck were killed, so according to the tag cutters, that should have meant an explosion in deer population. It didn't.

And as I said to Muley.

I live by Antelope Island.
2bucks killed per year. No sxs, off trail hiking isn't allowed. One of, if not the hight mature buck to doe ratio in the state. No cats. No bears.

If very restrictive hunting= herd explosions, AI would be overrun with deer. It's not, nor has it ever been, even prior to sfw "saving the island".
Click to expand...
 
hossblur, Can't tell you how many deer there are or now or were in my younger hay-day, but after 60 years of not only hunting, but observing deer during the off season, from the Wai-weep to the Idaho border. This, I can tell from my observations, from the areas in Utah I have hunted and been. We only have 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 the number of deer we use to have. There are many areas on the north end of the Fishlake unit I don't even frequent because they are void of any deer. Those areas used to contain hundreds in the fall and winter and now zero or maybe one or two.

Now if you are as old as myself I would like to listen to your facts, but if you are a young or medium aged snot your as blind as a bat when it comes to deer.

I am so tired of the young uninformed hunters out there who are oblivious to what's going on to our deer herds.
 
notdonhunting said:
I do believe most hunters believe habitat improvement and Fencing off highways are needed.
So you want the DWR to cut tags drastically and from what I understand on other threads you all want Conservation tags eliminated.
How do you all propose we are going to fund the DWR budget and complete habitat improvements and highways being fenced.
Tough to get much done when you have no money.
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With all of the money these non profit groups are putting toward wildlife and especially all of the money with expo tags, there shouldn’t need to be any more projects and mule deer herds should be kicking butt
 
Good comment,It just seems like everyone talking about the deer anymore are all about being entitled to hunt something that is just not there any more,I have a 30 acre alfalfa field that 20 years ago had 50-100 deer in it this time of year,This year I have had THREE all does.Drove to the city two days ago and counted 5 dead deer on the highway in 40 miles !!!!.Utah 20-30 years ago had 1/2 of the population it currently has,So how are all of the new comers going to get tags You are more than likely not, Sad but true,There is just no way everyone that wants to hunt is going to be able to no matter what we do with the declining deer herd.OBVIOSLY all of the MM key board biologist are not going to make a difference in the current issue.
 
cannonball said:
Now if you are as old as myself I would like to listen to your facts, but if you are a young or medium aged snot your as blind as a bat when it comes to deer.

I am so tired of the young uninformed hunters out there who are oblivious to what's going on to our deer herds.
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I haven't seen a single person claim the deer herd is not struggling in these post. Quite the opposite actually. Pretty sure everyone acknowledges that the herd as a whole is way down.
 
Maybe this is a good part of the problem and a good reason it will never again be like the "good old days"

In 1960, around 890,000 people lived in Utah. By 2020, this figure had increased to about 3.25 million people. Resident population in Utah from 1960 to 2020 (in millions)
 
cannonball said:
hossblur, Can't tell you how many deer there are or now or were in my younger hay-day, but after 60 years of not only hunting, but observing deer during the off season, from the Wai-weep to the Idaho border. This, I can tell from my observations, from the areas in Utah I have hunted and been. We only have 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 the number of deer we use to have. There are many areas on the north end of the Fishlake unit I don't even frequent because they are void of any deer. Those areas used to contain hundreds in the fall and winter and now zero or maybe one or two.

Now if you are as old as myself I would like to listen to your facts, but if you are a young or medium aged snot your as blind as a bat when it comes to deer.

I am so tired of the young uninformed hunters out there who are oblivious to what's going on to our deer herds.
Click to expand...


47, 48 in Jan


How would you know? Most of N Utah is CWMU.


But, same question. Show me your historical data.

Not a 10-20yr freak blip. Show me since Brigham rolled into Utah.

There are 10x as many deer in my town as there were 20 years ago. So does that mean we are in the heyday?


Go read a book. Read the explorer's, pioneers, etc. Mule deer as far as the eye could see, ain't discussed.
 
cannonball said:
hossblur, Can't tell you how many deer there are or now or were in my younger hay-day, but after 60 years of not only hunting, but observing deer during the off season, from the Wai-weep to the Idaho border. This, I can tell from my observations, from the areas in Utah I have hunted and been. We only have 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 the number of deer we use to have. There are many areas on the north end of the Fishlake unit I don't even frequent because they are void of any deer. Those areas used to contain hundreds in the fall and winter and now zero or maybe one or two.

Now if you are as old as myself I would like to listen to your facts, but if you are a young or medium aged snot your as blind as a bat when it comes to deer.

I am so tired of the young uninformed hunters out there who are oblivious to what's going on to our deer herds.
Click to expand...


Since only old dudes can reply.

How many CWMU we're there in the old days? How many LE units?

What? You mean if you lock up all of northern Utah, and have of southern Utah, the deer counts on public aren't good?

Do we include Deseret counts with n Utah? Why not? Deer never jump fences?

Before you shoot off your mouth about how us young guys don't know, feel free to answer those 2questions.

How many LE and CWMU we're there in the 60's and 70's?

I'll wait quietly while the elder council ponders that one
 
There were no CWMU and there were no LE hunts,But there were also no EXPO'S and I really do not remember any outfitters to speak of,We could hunt all three seasons Archery Rifle And Muzzleloader,We also did not have range finders, rifles that would shoot todays distance,No four wheelers,Side X sides,High power spotting scopes and binoculars,We done it OLD SCHOOL:unsure:.
 
bucks said:
There were no CWMU and there were no LE hunts,But there were also no EXPO'S and I really do not remember any outfitters to speak of,We could hunt all three seasons Archery Rifle And Muzzleloader,We also did not have range finders, rifles that would shoot todays distance,No four wheelers,Side X sides,High power spotting scopes and binoculars,We done it OLD SCHOOL:unsure:.
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And in a lot of areas no elk to compete for winter range.
 
Im still waiting for anyone, old dude or teenager to show me, how cutting 135,000 hunters, lead to a deer population explosion.

Don't start with "we could never have that many hunters today".

That ain't the point. The point is very simple.

Cutting nearly half of the tags, didn't do anything. We are sitting near the same herd as we had the day that cut happened. And it's been 3decades.

Facts don't care about your feelings. Feeling like cuts SHOULD work, ain't the same as actually PROVING they do.

For the 1000th time.

Yes, shutting down an area, ie the Fish lake, would most likely create more mature bucks. The Henries shutdown showed that to be true. 5years later, 10years later, would ANY of the other limiting factors change there? No. But sure, for 2-3 draws, it would be the hit ticket. Then, after the biggest bucks were killed, the BIOLOGICAL REALITY would happen, and the inability of that area to continuously produce, would come into play. Same as the Henries.

In the meantime, all those Fish lake guys, would simply apply for other units, putting more pressure elsewhere.

PLUS, when the unit did open back up, the corporate hunters would swarm it, and like it or not, they are much more efficient than average Joe. Look only to the Henries to see how quickly it gets shot out.
 
So it seems like we just keep going back and fourth on this issue,I think we all are in agreement that our current deer herd is in big trouble,I wish we could come up with a good solution to the problem and get the wildlife administrators involved and on board with fixing the problem.Obviously if you are on this site and reading the materials posted in these forums you are more than likely a outdoorsman and hopefully a ethical hunter!
There was some good materials posted by MM member Jims in the mule deer section Post #23,25,27,28,29.Thke a minute and read this material good info.DatedNovember 4

Merry Christmas to All.
 
somedaya200 said:
In a rac meeting a few months ago the division said some general season units will take 10+ years to draw soon. So yeah there is a problem. Each year the division gets an additional 10% new applications that are people that haven’t ever put in before. So even if it’s not huge now, in less than 10 years there will be twice the number of hunters trying to get licenses. That’s why I’d be in favor for some type of restrictions for all hunts, not just muzzleloader, but going back on just muzzleloaders would be a step in the right direction for now. It’s also not just general season deer either, but all hunts that could benefit from similar changes. That’s just my 2 cents though.
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The whole reason the DWR created the mentor program was to recruit young hunters. They were afraid the well was going to run dry. That looks like not the case at all. Thanks a lot DWR for creating a bigger problem.
 
One Of Many,Many Ridge!

Sure Are Alot Of Hunters Not Liking Them New One Shot Rifle SmokePoles!

All 3 Weapon Type Users Are Guilty!

It's Gonna Be All Gave Some!

Not!

Some Gave All!







ridgetops said:
The whole reason the DWR created the mentor program was to recruit young hunters. They were afraid the well was going to run dry. That looks like not the case at all. Thanks a lot DWR for creating a bigger problem.
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ridgetops said:
The whole reason the DWR created the mentor program was to recruit young hunters. They were afraid the well was going to run dry. That looks like not the case at all. Thanks a lot DWR for creating a bigger problem.
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Lifetime holders mentor hunters as well it all adds up. Legal party hunting is what it is.
 
Here you go hoss. Quit hunting from Aug to January. Limit muzzle to 1x scope. Shorten the seasons so deer are not pressured 6 months a year so they can be stronger going into the winter months. Make hunts 3 or 4 point or better so we have more mature bucks being able to get to all the doe herds that currently have zero bucks in with them during the rut. If I go test a group of doe that has a buck in with them, my chances are pretty good of getting a good percentage of doe being bred. Let’s try these groups of doe that do not have one buck in with them and see what that percentage is.
 
I'm am 1000% for antler point restrictions, the argument was always "too many deer were shot and left behind" well back in the 90's how many guys we're actually packing binoculars or had decent quality optics on there rifles? I know my family had 1 pair of binoculars that we all shared. Now everyone including the kids under 10 have there own pair, and the stuff the kids are using are better quality then what we had.

Plus I think the whole culture of hunting has changed to where that just wouldn't happen as much.

Only thing is I would still allow youth, and elderly 70+ to shoot what they want.

I think this is a solution to a few different issues, 1. You would be able to allow more hunters as not as many bucks are being killed.
2. You would ensure there are always bucks on the landscape to breed doe's (if that is truly an issue)
3. In a few years I believe quality would improve which makes for happier hunters.


Still don't know that it would improve overall population growth, but it's something that I feel would benefit hunters.

Still need to work on solutions to grow the population. I think alot of that is out of our control but there are things that could be done to assist.
 
JakeH said:
I'm am 1000% for antler point restrictions, the argument was always "too many deer were shot and left behind" well back in the 90's how many guys we're actually packing binoculars or had decent quality optics on there rifles? I know my family had 1 pair of binoculars that we all shared. Now everyone including the kids under 10 have there own pair, and the stuff the kids are using are better quality then what we had.

Plus I think the whole culture of hunting has changed to where that just wouldn't happen as much.

Only thing is I would still allow youth, and elderly 70+ to shoot what they want.

I think this is a solution to a few different issues, 1. You would be able to allow more hunters as not as many bucks are being killed.
2. You would ensure there are always bucks on the landscape to breed doe's (if that is truly an issue)
3. In a few years I believe quality would improve which makes for happier hunters.


Still don't know that it would improve overall population growth, but it's something that I feel would benefit hunters.

Still need to work on solutions to grow the population. I think alot of that is out of our control but there are things that could be done to assist.
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Apr's are only good for a year or two.IMO
 
Here is a couple pretty good explanations of the possible good and bad of APR’s in mule deer populations. There have been several experiments/studies done on this over the years and the results are that, on average, APR’s often do more harm than good. That said, I wouldn't pitch a fit if the DWR wanted to try it out on a couple of units.


 
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If You're Gonna Have Antler Restrictions!

Which I'm Not Against!

You'll need a Better Way To Enforce it!

Maybe Check some of the Fines I Listed in HELL-RIGHT!

Seen/Found Many of 2 Point Carcasses & Heads While Me & My Friend were Hunting the Late MUZZ Hunt in the Book Cliffs!

Can Somebody Get The Info From the NE Region DWR on How many Hunters were Actually Fined For it?

I'd Like To see that Info!

Most People Had 1/2 Assed Glass in the 90's!

But They Were In Such a Hurry To Fill Their F'N Tag they Decided to SHOOT & COUNT POINTS LATER!

SAD!
 
southernutahhunter said:
Here you go hoss. Quit hunting from Aug to January. Limit muzzle to 1x scope. Shorten the seasons so deer are not pressured 6 months a year so they can be stronger going into the winter months. Make hunts 3 or 4 point or better so we have more mature bucks being able to get to all the doe herds that currently have zero bucks in with them during the rut. If I go test a group of doe that has a buck in with them, my chances are pretty good of getting a good percentage of doe being bred. Let’s try these groups of doe that do not have one buck in with them and see what that percentage is.
Click to expand...


Yup. You can do all those, and not have to cut a single tag.
 
southernutahhunter said:
Antler restrictions plus shorten seasons for all species
Click to expand...


We did the shorten season thing, there is actual data on how that worked out


Changing the parameters would be better. Suck more dudes away from rifles, into bows.

Muzzy has to go back to being a primitive weapon.

Open sights, loose powder, no sabots, no 209.
 
hunt30 said:
Here is a couple pretty good explanations of the possible good and bad of APR’s in mule deer populations. There have been several experiments/studies done on this over the years and the results are that on average APR’s often do more harm than good. That said, I wouldn't pitch a fit if the DWR wanted to try it out on a couple of units.


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Interesting information.

I see that the main concern was that it would not sustain itself. But initial implementation showed improvement. What if they started a rolling APR that shifted from unit to unit after being implemented in 1/3 of the units for 1 to 2 years at a time. And again still allow youth and elderly to shoot what ever they want.
 
And ALL Weapon Types Will Do the Same!

I Started With a F'N HAWKENS!

I Started With a F'N ReCurve!

I Started With a 30-30!

JakeH said:
Bess, you guys are not giving up anything, you would be going back to the way it used to be and the way it should be.
Click to expand...
 
JakeH said:
Interesting information.

I see that the main concern was that it would not sustain itself. But initial implementation showed improvement. What if they started a rolling APR that shifted from unit to unit after being implemented in 1/3 of the units for 1 to 2 years at a time. And again still allow youth and elderly to shoot what ever they want.
Click to expand...
It’s been done enough over the years, the results are probably fairly predictable. And it really does nothing to address the real problem, which is declining overall populations. I think going to a 5 day season for muzzleloader and rifle hunts would do more to benefit buck/doe ratios if that’s the goal.
 
And If You're Cutting the Muzz & Rifle in 1/2 Archery Season will be cut to 14 days as well!

Remember!

ALL GIVE SOME!

hunt30 said:
It’s been done enough over the years, the results are probably fairly predictable. And it really does nothing to address the real problem, which is declining overall populations. I think going to a 5 day season for muzzleloader and rifle hunts would do more to benefit buck/doe ratios if that’s the goal.
Click to expand...
 
hossblur said:
Since only old dudes can reply.

How many CWMU we're there in the old days? How many LE units?

What? You mean if you lock up all of northern Utah, and have of southern Utah, the deer counts on public aren't good?

Do we include Deseret counts with n Utah? Why not? Deer never jump fences?

Before you shoot off your mouth about how us young guys don't know, feel free to answer those 2questions.

How many LE and CWMU we're there in the 60's and 70's?

I'll wait quietly while the elder council ponders that one
Click to expand...
What's LE and CWMU units got to do with anything? Being an "Old Dude", in my hey-day we didn't need them. Now its a money game. Then it was a fun hunt and usually a family hunt. Back then most private land was open for all. Yes there was some no trespassing, but for a reason. Anyway, the deer are almost gone as compared to then - - that I am sure of. 2Lumpy's counts are more than correct, even it it seems fuzzy to you. The deer counts don't need to be scientific when a logical man can see the drastic difference. At least using the word scientific when it comes to doing something. I certainly don't have the answers, but we need to do something major. We can't have the Wildlife Board and the DWR sitting on their butts and make no changes or very small changes like they have done for the last umpteen years, I do have hope for the WLB though. At least a few members.
 
cannonball said:
What's LE and CWMU units got to do with anything? Being an "Old Dude", in my hey-day we didn't need them. Now its a money game. Then it was a fun hunt and usually a family hunt. Back then most private land was open for all. Yes there was some no trespassing, but for a reason. Anyway, the deer are almost gone as compared to then - - that I am sure of. 2Lumpy's counts are more than correct, even it it seems fuzzy to you. The deer counts don't need to be scientific when a logical man can see the drastic difference. At least using the word scientific when it comes to doing something. I certainly don't have the answers, but we need to do something major. We can't have the Wildlife Board and the DWR sitting on their butts and make no changes or very small changes like they have done for the last umpteen years, I do have hope for the WLB though. At least a few members.
Click to expand...


"The counts don't need to be scientific".

Perfect. That's how all the best science gets done.?


As to CWMU and LE. When you tie up more and more land(CWMU have public land tied up) to CWMU and LE, you concentrate the same amount of hunters on smaller areas.

You create a financial incentive for ranchers to feed off public land, creating a magnet to suck wildlife into their ground to eat.

You created an entire corporate hunting industry, on public land, that has much higher success rates, on the top end animals.

And lastly. How about the same three challenges I keep issuing.

So, let's see YOU do one.

1. Support OTC draw for 17 and under, with the remaining tags available in draw afterwards. Let the old guys screaming for shutdowns, get shutdown.

2. Post a video of the tag you drew with you cutting it up/burning it PRIOR to the season. That way the DWR gets the revenue, and YOU can limit the pressure/kills by staying home.

3.Support either/or drawing. You are either LE, or OTC. NOT BOTH. The "quality" guys can go chase quality, and live by their belief. Meaning they can NOT HUNT for years in order to not be opportunists. As a byproduct, that will help point creep.
 
Split the muzzy hunt, give the old percussion cap systems the first five days, and then in-line get the last few days. You can’t hunt both hunts, pick your poison!! in-line guys get to still hunt and use their weapons on a more limited hunt and more tags can be given to the primitive weapons. Even better yet, turn archery season that we now know into a primitive weapon season where flint, percussion, and archery get to hunt at the same time. In-line gets a 5 day hunt and now everyone is happy.
 
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How about you draw out for a two point or less buck permit, that way you control the amount of two points that get killed.
They get to start hunting on Saturday and hunt for 4 days and the guys that draw out for three point or better start on Wednesday and hunt for 5 days.
 
I am for many of these ideas for these units that are hurting. Trouble is we dont get to make any of these decisions and until dwr admits the deer herd is in the tank I am not sure they will try anything different. Also watch out for the big winter kill that could be coming, it could take our what deer are left in many of these units
 
And If It Did Happen!

Nobody Would Want Any Tags Cut!

GEEZUS!

southernutahhunter said:
I am for many of these ideas for these units that are hurting. Trouble is we dont get to make any of these decisions and until dwr admits the deer herd is in the tank I am not sure they will try anything different. Also watch out for the big winter kill that could be coming, it could take our what deer are left in many of these units
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