Stimulus package explained

[nochawk]

Stimulus package explained
"Sometime this year, taxpayers will receive an Economic Stimulus Payment. This is a very exciting new program that I will explain using the Q and A format:

"Q. What is an Economic Stimulus Payment?
"A. It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.

"Q. Where will the government get this money?
"A. From taxpayers.

"Q. So the government is giving me back my own money?
"A. No, they are borrowing it from China. Your children are expected to repay the Chinese.

"Q. What is the purpose of this payment?
"A. The plan is that you will use the money to purchase a high-definition TV set, thus stimulating the economy.

"Q. But isn't that stimulating the economy of China?
"A. Shut up."


Below is some helpful advice on how to best help the US economy by spending your stimulus check wisely:

If you spend that money at Wal-Mart, all the money will go to China.

If you spend it on gasoline it will go to Hugo Chavez, the Arabs and Al Queda

If you purchase a computer it will go to Taiwan.

If you purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras, Chile, and Guatemala.

If you buy a car it will go to Japan and Korea.

If you purchase prescription drugs it will go to India

If you purchase heroin it will go to the Taliban in Afghanistan

If you give it to a charitable cause, it will go to Nigeria.

And none of it will help the American economy.

We need to keep that money here in America. You can keep the money in America by spending it at yard sales, going to a baseball game, or spend it on prostitutes, beer (domestic ONLY), or tattoos, since those are the only businesses still in the US.

 

[huntindude]

Thank you, I've been saying for 10 years we should be keeping American jobs and American dollars at home. I wonder how many today still think counting on the rest of the world to do our work is a great plan that boost the economy with all those savings on labor.

Obama put a " buy American " campiagn in as part of the stimulus plan and he's getting static over it. sometimes reality is more comical than comedy.

 

[NeMont]

HD,
The buy American clause is an arrogant piece of legislation when you have to go to foreigners to borrow the money to finance the stimulus. Maybe those evil foreigners should just not loan us the money and see how much we can get done on our own.

Nemont

 

[Apexmtnman]

Dude, talk about being a hipocryt you already said you hired wetbacks to work on your farm. How is that hiring American and keeping our money in America? Go to the local Mexican grocery store on friday afternoon and watch all that American money being wired to Mexico. Your against gun control, but you'll let them have the black rifles. You talk out of both sides of your mouth, and neither side makes any sense.

 

[huntindude]

Apex , first off I hire seasonal workers according to the law, I find out a month later their paperwork is fake. why don't you come pick rocks off the chain this August and that will be one less chance for an illegal to get a job? or maybe you're like 99.99% of the rest of white people, it's a job a white guy should have, but hell no not me. when did I say they could have black rifles? I said if that would end it I could go for it but it wouldn't end there. if you'd rather talk about me than the subject of this thread then ok, but keep it real.

Nemont I can see the logic in your arguments most of the time, but this time you're way way beyondo. If all we want to do is ##### foot around the foreigners so they'll loan us the money to keep buying their crap that got us into this mess what good is there in even borrowing it? maybe we should let whats left of our manufactuing base go broke and move overseas as a sign of good will and submission to our creditors? I understand we are a debtor nation and need their money but if it comes at the expense of what's left of our job base then we need another plan. I ALWAYS buy American every time I have an option and I wish everyone did, I make no apologies for it to you or Hop Sing.

 

[piper]

I grew up in Northeastern Nevada, and watched the abused land gradually get drier and be taken over by cheat grass, even more than it already was, some estimates say 2/3rds of the state is dominated by the non native plant, some groups and individuals put together the great basin initiative, a huge project to grow plants like sagebrush and revegitate millions of acres of federal land, it would employ lots of people and could dramatically increase the lands productivity for wildlife and livestock, right now a lot of the land is locked in a fire-cheatgrass cycle and its expensive to constantly fight fires, so over time a lot of money could be saved by this effort. Any way in my mind thats the kind of thing we should do. Im just afraid with the pathetic politicans in that part of the country it won't happen

 

[NeMont]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-09 AT 02:44PM (MST)[p]HD,

I am not out on any island on this. In way I hope the Chinese and Japanese and everyone else refuses to loan us anymoe money especially with a requirement that says we aren't going to buy steel from them.

why should they buy any more of our debt when we codify into our laws such things. It will only lead other countries to have a "do not buy American clause". It is arrogant to have to hat in hand to borrow money and yet close the market. If I was China I would hang on to my money and let Washingto go find another credit card.

Now explain how the clause of buy American isn't arrogant when it is "Hop Sing" who is expect to finance it?

Also I never asked you to apologize for anything but if you don't think we are at the mercy of our creditors then you aren't thinking clearly. We cannot finance any of this stimulus ourselves.
Nemont

 

[NeMont]

Piper,

I don't think enviromental rehab work is going to be a high priority for the near future.

Nemont

 

[piper]

I know, its just a nice thought, me being a hunter and all

 

[AZStickman]

"Thank you, I've been saying for 10 years we should be keeping American jobs and American dollars at home. I wonder how many today still think counting on the rest of the world to do our work is a great plan that boost the economy with all those savings on labor.
Obama put a " buy American " campiagn in as part of the stimulus plan and he's getting static over it. sometimes reality is more comical than comedy."


HD I can't believe I've agreed with you twice in one day here. Loss of manufacturing to offshore sources "is" a death blow to our economy and, as you say, it has been an issue swept under the carpet for years. I'm for the Buy American and Patriot Incentive programs being proposed by the new administration and only hope the pork that goes along with getting these through the legislature doesn't outweigh the potential they have to positively impact our economy.

It's been a weird month. I actually found myself and Piper on the same side of an discussion over record books and how they have become a twisted reflection of their original intent....... Maybe I should have the water tested at the house..... :-0 Terry

 

[huntindude]

Nemont I understand what you're saying and you're right to a point, but my point is if all we're doing is borrowing money from Asia to put Asians to work then why even do it? putting others to work rather than our own got us here so I see no logic in making an extra effort to continue a failed practice.

Lets go all American on this spending and if nobody will loan us the money then no harm done.

 

[NeMont]

>Nemont I understand what you're saying
>and you're right to a
>point, but my point is
>if all we're doing is
>borrowing money from Asia to
>put Asians to work then
>why even do it? putting
>others to work rather than
>our own got us here
>so I see no logic
>in making an extra effort
>to continue a failed practice.
>
>
> Lets go all American on
>this spending and if nobody
>will loan us the money
>then no harm done.


I agree with all of that. All I said is being broke and expecting the world to continue to finance our consumption but codifying into law a buy American clause is arrogant.

Borrowing and spending money we don't have to buy things we don't need to keep up with people we don't really like got us into this. Borrowing more and demanding more from our lenders will hurt us even more.

We can't go all American on this spending for a couple of reasons. 1. Americans don't have any money to lend their government, they are broke 2. We don't make many high quality products here to be used in by this spending.

Ever hear Peter Schiff's explanantion of the American problem. It is interesting listening.

I want America to succeed but if our industry is dependent upon government handouts, after 25 years of or government preaching to everyone in the world that open markets lift living standards then how do we close our market. If you think the world hates Americans now just wait until we don't buy their products any longer.

I buy American whenever possible, the only foreign vehicle I have owned was the Mercede's I drove when I live in Germany.

Ever hear the adage: The borrower is a slave to the lender? That is a true fact.

Nemont

 

[piper]

Nemont-Just once I would like you to tell me how we are going to compete in the world market? with healthcare twice as expensive as most other countrys, with by far the highest military spending, with by far the most prisoners locked up, with having to buy so much oil, other than dropping the working classes standard of living by 50%, I really can't figure it out, how can we compete?

 

[NeMont]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-09 AT 01:43PM (MST)[p]

We can't compete that is why we don't build or make anything here. We don't export much of anything and our imports are at so imbalanced that we are at the mercy of others to live our lives. The working class standard of living is going to fall regardless of what Obama does. We have borrowed to much money from foreigners and wasted it on consumption. We had a party with the money building houses that are too big, vehicles that are too big, taking vacations we can't afford, consuming resources we don't have and doing it all on the national credit card. We cannot compete is such an environment.

There is nothing wrong with borrowing even stupendous amounts of money if you put that money to productive use. Borrowing it to consume today and pay for it tomorrow is bad economics and it is robbing from your future prosperity if that consumption is delivered to you via imports.

Imports have to be paid for by exports, that is a fairly simple economic theory. Every month we run a trade deficit it is like owning a huge farm but every month selling off a few acres to pay the bills, that is what we are doing.

Think of this way(Peter Schiff's example). Shrink the world down to 6 people and they are stranded on an island, there is 1 American and 5 Asians. When they divvy up the work the American is given the job of eating. The Asians spend all day cutting wood, catching fish, fetching water, preparing food, building shelter etc, etc and after an exhausting day they gather to feed this American, he has a service economy , well from the outside looking in the American says, "Look how important I am to this whole thing, these Asians wouldn't have work if I didn't eat so much". Pretty quick the Asians figure out that if they just stop feeding the American they would all be able to work less, enjoy more fruits of their labors and improve their standard of living at the cost of the American's standard of living.

So we are not willing to make the difficult choices in regards to our monetary policy, we are not willing to feel the pain of our years of over consumption, we are looking at borrowing more money to pour down the drain of consumption, on the idea that if people would just get back to spending everything would be great. If the government just confiscates enough wealth from those who are competent and gives to those who are incompetent all will be well. It isn't going to be well.

So I don't see how we compete when our idea is borrow today, spend today and tomorrow's wealth and expect the rest of the world to bail us out. The day is coming the rest of the world decides they cannot afford to feed us.

We are broke, we owe more then we produce and our wealth has been squandered. We aren't going to compete until all that excess is cleaned out of the system. Our kids are going to have a reduced standard of living either through devaluation of our money or their inability to find a decent paying job or a combination of both. That is why mine are most likely going to spend alot of time off shore working for countries who don't have phony economies.

The one area we will be able to compete, if government allows it, is in agriculture. The tide is turning so that people who actually grow or make things will be the one that are making the money. Commodities are about the only asset class where the fundementals are unimpaired.

What can we do without causing massive dislocation in our nation? I have some ideas but they would not fly politically because nobody wants to feel any pain. So we will see how far Obama's plan goes in stimulating the economy. If the goal is to return to the way the economy was two to three years ago, well then good luck, it ain't going to happen. The American consumer is going to be more tight fisted this time around and all this government spending will do is just end up hurting those who have the skills to help rebuild our economy.

Be careful what you ask for.

Nemont

 

[piper]

I believe that, no one wants to make tough choices, maybe its because our political system won't allow that to happen?

 

[NeMont]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-09 AT 02:25PM (MST)[p]The political system is us, we don't want to feel any pain. Look at some of the crazy expectation people have with the election of Obama. There are alot of people out there who truly believe the government is going to lower the price of gas and make their house payments for them.

We the American people have the power make changes but instead we continue to elect people who promise a car in every garage and a chicken in every pot.

So to say nobody wants to make the tough choices is saying we the people want to continue to decieve ourselves that we can live on our own blood and on the worlds credit. We are the problem in our system. Wasn't Ben Franklin that said, and I am paraphrasing, " A Republic can only exist until the majority figures out a way to vote themselves each a part of the national treasury"?

We wouldn't elect Ron Paul because he spoke the truth and we didn't want to face the truth. I hope President Obama the best unfortunately he has never held a job that didn't come with a government paycheck so he believes government is the answer to the problem, I believe government is the problem and more government is a bigger problem. From what you have posted it appears you tend to side with Obama. We shall wait and see, all I know is that I am going to hedge my bets and complete my move away from the dollar and away from our equity markets. Asia is where the wealth is going to be held and China is the next Super Power. We will all be wishing for the good old days soon.

Nemont

 

[piper]

I liked Ron Paul,but didn't vote for him because he didn't have a chance. I like Obama in a lot of ways, and he did say we need to make tough choices, thats easy to say, but I don't hear much else from him on that, its dissapointing, we will see I guess.

 

[TFinalshot]

lets cut to the chase, the stimulus package is, "more of the same but with more zeros. . . ."

 

[NeMont]

Piper,
Obama has inherited a lot of huge and difficult problems. I commend him for wanting to tackle the job of being President. I suspet that it is somewhat like trying to herd cats.

I am very very pleased so far with his moves on the International scene. LONG overdue to treat Syria and Iran as serious players in the middle East. We can talk to them without surrendering our values. Long overdue to consider a different path in Afghanistan. We will be out of direct combat in Iraq sooner rather then later I believe.

His economic policies so far make me want to cry. Any forbearance I give him on the International side is sucked away by this stimulus package and by the continued idea that more spending is somehow going to help. I don't think it is going to help. I am not as smart as the guys he picked many of them have all kinds of brain power, however looking at history and economic principles it certainly appears to me that he is just continuing the Bush policy of letting Bernanke run the printing presses.

He is most certainly going to run up the largest single year deficit in the history of the world. That is bad policy no matter who is sitting in the White House. I find him to be very smart and fundementally fair and honest but horribly misinformed of the role of government and it's ability to "create" jobs and "jump start" the economy. The consumer is too jaded to want to go on a spending spree.

Nemont

 

[NeMont]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-09 AT 02:51PM (MST)[p]but I like being wordy, especially when I don't want to be diving into the work piled on my desk.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

OK Nemont now you're making sense again, I agree with 99% of what you said.

I do have to say though, don't you think a record deficit is somewhat excusable given we're in a depression ? I'm not defending mass spending but even the majority of republican governors are urging quick passage of the stimulus plan because their states are broke. I'm not so sure this is a stimulus package anymore, I think it's a care package to hold us over until things get worse.

 

[NeMont]

HD,
I just can't bring myself to the point that says spending a Trillion dollars of money we don't have to get traumatized consumers spending money they don't have on things they don't need is good. I don't know if the consumers who watch their wealth evaporate are going to be in the mood to part with any of the money they recieve from the government.

The states have to cut back, they are broke and unfortunately they have to either increase taxes or reduce expenditures. The Federal government should not be a lender of last resort. As a Taxpayer I don't want to be responsible for fixing California's budget. Arnold is just have to learn to live within Kalefornia's means.

In the end my opinion doesn't matter at all and they are going to spend the money. I have already let my Senators and lone Representative know my feelings and ideas. I did get three very nice emails in automated return mode thanking me for my continued support .

I am somewhat encouraged that the senate wants to stip "tens of Billions" out of this bill. I don't know what will come out of conference committee but if it is far less then currently propose it would at least dig less of a hole.

We shall see. One thing is for sure. We are going to have rough waters to sail through.

Nemont

 

[3blade]

I have said all along that if you cut corporate taxes to 25% or less and cut the capitol gains tax to at least 10% it would jump start the economy. making the Bush tax cuts permanent would help a ton too.

just my 2 cents.