Survey Says? Wyo PP survey

[ihuntelk]

"? I would rather have a small chance of drawing a license for a hard-to-draw area each year, instead of a nearly certain chance when I have received the maximum preference points needed for the area.

Agreement (62%) is nearly double disagreement (33%) that
respondents would rather have a small chance of drawing a license each year (without the preference point system) than to have a nearly certain chance in other years (with a preference point system, when they have accumulated the maximum number of
preference points; the implication is that in other years when they do not have many preference points they would have almost no chance). In short, the majority of respondents would rather take their chances without a preference point system, which
gives them a small chance every year, rather than with a preference point system, which would give them no chance in some years but an excellent chance in other years."

Here is the first question/answer from the WGFD survey conducted in 2008. I FINALLY got a copy today after asking for several years. Still not sure where Hicks is coming up with his survey results that 80% of Wyo Residents want a PP system. I would encourage ALL Wyo hunters to email Hicks and DEMAND that he retract his bill (SF85). Maybe next year he will actually ask Wyoming sportsmen what they want.
Here's his email: [email protected]

Even if you're in favor of a PP system, I would encourage you to email so that you can actually have a say in the system unless you like others to spoon-feed you your mush.........

-Cade
www.HuntForeverWest.com

 

[elks96]

It would be nice to see a more recent result. But since there is not one this is the best data. Almost 2 to 1 in favor of the current system.

I know my good buddy laughed when he stated the 80%... I scoffed as I know several resident hunters and none are in favor of the system either.

It will be interesting to see if it goes forward or not. Add in teh PP sharing, PP rounding, etc. and the system is poised for some serious issues...

I already figure that I will be buying points for my wife soon so that she can hunt a medium quality unit and split points with me once I draw my tag...

Imagine what will happen when all of WY is doing this... There is a reason why CO uses lowest points in a party application!

 

[BuzzH]

elks96...and you'd think a state Senator that likely applies for Colorado, and lives within rock throwing distance of Colorado would have spent some time investigating the problems with the preference system there.

Oh, I forgot, Wyoming and Colorado are so different that a comparison cant be made.

Yeah, thats it.

 

[jims]

Plain and simple: I drew 1 limited elk tag in over 20 years of applying as a Wyo resident. Once Wyo started pref pts for nonres I've drawn 2 bull elk tags and will likely draw my 3rd in the next year or so. The fact is, unless you apply for the toughest units in Wyo you will likely draw more tags! You will have a chance of drawing a tag every year in the random pool plus those that apply the longest will draw tags in the pref pt pool.

Great system for Wyo nonres that currently only get around 10% of the total tags alloted. Wyo residents get 90ish% of total tags so the system will likely work even better for them! I hope it comes reality for Wyo residents!

My vote goes for some sort of pref/bonus pt system where everyone stands a chance to draw tags and those with high pts have a better chance!

 

[jims]

Buzz, As mentioned before....Colo's pref pt system works great unless you apply for the toughest units in the state to draw! There is no draw system that will work very well for the highest demand tags in the state.

Wyo's current nonres system gives everyone a chance to draw tags in the random pool and those with highest pts an advantage in the pref pt pool. Wyo's nonres system is a definite improvement over Colo's...although I've drawn many tags over the past years in Colo!

Forgot to mention in the above post that my son that just starting out hunting has drawn 1 elk, 1 deer, and many antelope tags as a nonres in Wyo! He will likely draw his 2nd Wyo elk and deer tags in great units in the next year or so! He will also draw his 2nd Colo elk and 3rd muley tag in Colo in the next year or so. We hunt great units and have harvested some great trophies!

The current Wyo nonres draw system works great!

 

[Teepee]

>It would be nice to see
>a more recent result. But
>since there is not one
>this is the best data.
>Almost 2 to 1 in
>favor of the current system.
>
That is not a true statement. The question was specific to obtaining a tag on a hard to draw area, not your overall position on preference point system. Maybe Cade has the info in front of him, but G&F told me that the split was about 50/50 for/against a PP system.

>
>I know my good buddy laughed
>when he stated the 80%...
>I scoffed as I know
>several resident hunters and none
>are in favor of the
>system either.
>
Most of the hunters that I talk to want to see a PP system. And nearly all have kids that hunt. However, most I talked to are not trophy hunters.

>It will be interesting to see
>if it goes forward or
>not. Add in teh PP
>sharing, PP rounding, etc. and
>the system is poised for
>some serious issues...

On that issue, me, and others I've talked with will agree with 100%.

 

[WapitiBob]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-13 AT 10:17AM (MST)[p]To provide some clarity, NR receive roughly 20% of the Elk tags in the WY draw. We are guaranteed 7,250 full price tags regardless, so the % is not concrete. Also, full price tags remaining from LE units are converted to GEN tags to make sure we get those 7,250.

Would the new resident draw contain GEN units?
Would they convert LE tags to GEN tags?
Both Special and Regular draws?

Lots of questions nobody bothered to ask the residents about, prior to this Bill being submitted.

 

[SouthernWyo]

JimS, I appreciate your passion for hunting in Wyoming, and it is obvious that you love the point system as it works for you as a non-resident, but I'm not sure why you feel the need to try and influence the process for resident hunters.

The reason that many of us have a problem with preference point systems and even bonus point systems boils down to the probable loss of opportunity and ability to hunt big game in our home state. Your example of how many times that you and your son have drawn tags and been able to hunt in Colorado and Wyoming is appreciated, but I would offer that myself and both my children have been able to hunt antelope, deer, and elk in Wyoming EVERY year since they turned 12. A mixture of limited quota and mostly general hunt areas, all have been quality hunts and we've taken several quality animals as a bonus. We are not particularly lucky or unlucky, just average.

In Wyoming, we appear to be headed down the road towards reducing general areas and increasing limited quota hunt areas (i.e. the Platte valley mule deer herd.) Combine that with a preference point system, and the end result is that we have effectively reduced everyone's CHANCE of being allowed to hunt, all in the name of increasing trophy potential and spreading the "wealth". It's not a sacrifice that many residents are willing to make. When we get rid of all the smoke and mirrors, there is no clear majority of resident hunters that prefer random vs. preference point systems.


IMO if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[BuzzH]

jims,

I think you're misunderstanding what some of the real issues are with point systems, and in particular with whats being implemented via LEGISLATION in Wyoming.

Lets start at the start...as its a good place to begin, typically.

Even though there has been data provided, that data is not a very complete set of data, and is from a survey conducted in 2008 from a sub-set of around 600 hunters. Its not very extensive in the number of hunters polled, and ONLY asks about a PREFERENCE system.

Hunters are not given the option of any other system, a modified preference, bonus, once-in-a-lifetime option for hard to draw units, waiting periods, and the list goes on and on.

Thats a major flaw and IMO, one of the biggest sticking points with those that responded who were STRONGLY OPPOSED to any preference system.

What really sticks in the craw of many of WY residents hunters is that the current legislation is NOT written with any intent to allow for latitude in what type of system that WY hunters MAY be interested in adopting. Read the bill...its clearly states that a PREFERENCE system SHALL be adopted. I can tell you from looking at contract language, for a very long time, words like SHALL are binding. Further, there is no mention of any system other than PREFERENCE. That language is specific for a reason, and drafted by Legislators with an agenda, pure and simple.

Whats also not in the bill is any way to keep abuse of a preference system from happening, and its prime for it. It also doesnt address how to deal with youth hunters who are going to be YEARS behind in drawing some of the best tags in Wyoming. Many other problems have been listed and no need to repeat them all.

So, I believe its more prudent to throw this ba$tard of a bill out the door. Lets ask the important questions from the people it will actually impact and get feedback and direction from them. Sorry that I have no faith in a Legislative body that largely are comprised of non-hunters, anti-hunters, and supposed hunters like the Representative from Baggs. I doubt most have DIY, average hunters best interests at heart...actually, I know they dont.

Then to top the corruption cake, we have another bill making point transfers legal between family members???

Yeah, the Legislature is really looking out for us, and creating a "fair" system of tag distribution. Nothing like creating a system, then trying to pass other legislation to corrupt...the other corrupt system in one swoop. WOW!...JUST WOW!

I'll also correct you in your assessment that ALL units have tags available in the random draw. Thats not the case. Try drawing a random sheep tag in the Platte River...try drawing a random sheep tag in unit 12.

A few questions on the Colorado preference system...if its such a great deal from the get-go, why was it modified to the "hybrid" system? Why are people bringing up the point value (only taking enough points to draw, rather than ALL your points) for some areas?

Also, I wonder how great preference systems are when I have 14 deer points in Utah and the best unit I can draw is the Book Cliffs? For the record, thats largely what you'll be facing with 14 years worth of deer points in Wyoming as there arent many LQ units to choose from.

BTW, what do you suggest I do with 7 Colorado deer points?

 

[Triple_BB]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-13 AT 11:47AM (MST)[p]>JimS, I appreciate your passion for
>hunting in Wyoming, and it
>is obvious that you love
>the point system as it
>works for you as a
>non-resident, but I'm not sure
>why you feel the need
>to try and influence the
>process for resident hunters.

The same could be said with elk96 spewing his rhetoric. The day a Wyoming elected rep or anyone at the G&F gives any stock to what a non resident has to say about about resident hunting issues is the day they need to fire or get rid of those folks...

 

[BuzzH]

What a crock of chit...really Triple-bb?

The state legislature shouldnt listen to the Non-Resident hunters? A non-resident hunter is not allowed to move to Wyoming some day and become a resident?

Take a good look at the percentage of the G&F budget that is funded via Non-resident hunters VS what cheap-skates like you and I fund...do you think thats a good thing?

When a NR hunter is paying a majority of the freight, they have the absolute right to comment on ANY legislation or ANY regulations that impact ANYTHING to do with hunting. I dont care if its legislation/regulations that only impact residents or not.

You need to get over yourself and placing Resident hunters on a pedistal...in particular when you arent even paying your own way.

Good grief...the self-importance of residents is something.

 

[Triple_BB]

Hey Buzzy, apparently you haven't noticed I've been supporting increased license fee's for residents. And per some of my other posts, I've noted they should reduce non rezi tags to 10% and reallocate the other 10% to residents at the higher non resident fees so there is no loss in revenue. I'll gladly pay more and have been noting it for years. And ya, I don't think non rezi's should have any say about resident hunting issues irregardless of whether they have delusions of moving here. When they show up, start paying taxes and voting, then let'um speak their peace. Anything else?

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-13 AT 12:34PM (MST)[p]Triple_BB---Very well said by a self serving me me me me plick!!! Just thought I'd throw that in from someone who's throwing most of the money in the pot with other NRs to keep YOUR G&F Department and state afloat on the hunting situations YOU feel is all YOURs and nobody elses!!! You probably voted for Hicks too with your me me me attitude!!! Wake up and look at the big picture while you still have time. Anything else, my azz!

 

[BuzzH]

Triple_bb,

Beings how you pay NOTHING in state income tax...I cant fathom where you come up with all your "tax" dollars being spent to support the WYG&F.

Have you ever looked at where the money comes from? A small percentage from the General Fund...when I say small, I mean insignificantly small. Surely not enough to support your position that you really go "all out" with your tax dollars.

So, you can use that worn out and tired line on your buddies that feel they're entitled to full control of a G&F agency they scarcely fund through both license sales and the General Fund.

Maybe instead of poking NonResident with a stick and telling them what they can, and cant comment on...you should just say "thank you" and count your blessings that they subsidize your cheap resident fees every year.

I take every opportunity I can to thank NonResident hunters for supporting Wyomings Game and Fish...without them, we'd really be in the chit...FACT.

So, why you choose to show your arrogance toward NR's is truly amazing.

 

[TOPGUN]

Thanks BuzzH, as at least you get the big picture here on who;s paying the freight!!!

 

[elks96]

Latest from Hicks: The guy does not get it at all... Neither do some here:

Mr. Winn the bill does state the system you just have to understand how the bill reads. It is the same system that has been in place for 7 years for nonresidents. Also the G&F depart will generate approx $300,000 - $400,000 a year with this proposal. Their numbers not mine and it will only cost them $20,000 to implement.
The department conducted a survey of resident hunters and majority wanted the PP system. Further more the department does not have the legal authority to implement the system without legilative authority.

Once again you continue to try and compare WY with Colorado systems and they are not comparable. But probably more importantly it has become apparent that you are focast on your self and if you move to Wyoming you do not want to wait in line you just want to jump in front of some one who has applied for 10-20 years. And your arguments that youth wont get to hunt is absolutley baseless. Any youth in Wy can hunt elk, deer, and antelope every year. We have general license for elk and deer, and there are 1,000's of left over antelope license every year, not to mention left over deer and elk tags that youth can hunt. So how is it again that youth are not going to be able to hunt? Obviously you do not know of how the system works in WY or you would not keep repeating the same nonsense.

 

[elks96]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-13 AT 02:09PM (MST)[p]My response:


Mr. Hicks,

I am very familiar with WY. I am also aware of how the "system" is supposed to work. Currently I am stuck in the WY PP system just like I am stuck in the CO system. I have 6 points in the WY system. I am in no mans land. I have no real shot at a quality unit in the state as all have less than 10% draw odds with max points. I could however just take a lesser tag that takes 1-2 points. But then I would have wasted 3 years and over $200. I went from hunting WY every year or at least every other year on a random draw to not hunting at all for 4-5 years now. Sure your DNR is making money, but I am no longer hunting in WY like I have in the past. SO no gas money, food, supplies, etc.

As far as a recent survey you are wrong and I am going to call you on it. The last survey done by the DNR was in 2008. In that survey the very 1st question of the survey asked for the participants if they agreed or disagreed with this statement:

I would rather have a small chance of drawing a license for a hard-to-draw area each year, instead of a nearly certain chance when I have received the maximum preference points needed for the area.

Agreement (62%) is nearly double disagreement (33%) that
respondents would rather have a small chance of drawing a license each year (without the preference point system) than to have a nearly certain chance in other years (with a preference point system, when they have accumulated the maximum number of
preference points; the implication is that in other years when they do not have many preference points they would have almost no chance). In short, the majority of respondents would rather take their chances without a preference point system, which
gives them a small chance every year, rather than with a preference point system, which would give them no chance in some years but an excellent chance in other years."

It does not look like a majority at all and it appears that you are simply ling to get a what you perceive will help you draw tags. Between this system, the averaging of tags and the ability to transfer points to family, this system will be filled with corruption and greed. I also disagree with myself wanting to jump ahead of the others. I am not entitled to anything neither are other hunters. We should all be treated fair as equals. This mean a very clean and level playing field. What could be more fair than a completely random draw where everyone has the same chance? Do you whine to the powerball because you have bought tickets for years and some 18 year kid wins?

While I compare to CO, I do so because the same misinformation that you are stating, was the exact same stuff I heard as a teenager here in Colorado. When the system started no one expected us to have a 20+ year wait for elk tags, no one expected our general areas to go away, no one expected us to see general units go from 0 points to 2 to 3 to 5.... The system once in place can not be stopped it is there forever. Every state that has implemented such a system has experienced the same negative results. They run the system for 8-10 years, then suddenly they realize that the system is not delivering what was promised and people start wanting the system to change. This change is limited because once people have invested there is no going back.

I really must ask why are you so into this system? Could it be for your personal gain? You are probably looking at a way to ensure yourself one last great tag before your career is over. Who do you have in your family with a bunch of points they can transfer to you? Since you seem to think I am only looking out for my self, who are you looking out for? The whole situation stinks of greed and corruption. Between averaging points, transferring points, etc...

On the flip side if I was really out for my self then I would be all for the resident point system. If I were to move to WY now I would jump to the front of the line since I already have 6 points. No resident will have a chance against me. Then once my tag is done, I will use my wife's points to average me to the front again, and oh then I could use my dads points after that and keep me in the front again... It is a great system, push it through. Do you not see how this will work? If I can just keep someone close to me with a point bank and then send their application in I can keep hunting a good unit using the average method while other hunters apply single and struggle to keep up with my ability to average points.

Why not let the residents and the DNR come up with the system they want and set it up as they see fit. A 25% random draw odd is lame, as a nonresident there are units that do not even have a random draw tag because there are not enough in the pool to begin with. And when there is a 25% tag available, there can be over 300 people going for 1 tag... that is great odds. Can't wait to tell my kids that you can't hunt for a couple years until you get enough pints but you might be luck to get a 1 in 300 tag...

Sincerely,

Rob Winn

 

[Triple_BB]

>So, why you choose to show
>your arrogance toward NR's is
>truly amazing.

Arrogance, there's a pot calling the kettle black. Yer the most arrogant douche on this site. Don't recall saying my taxes went to the G&F, but I'm paying plenty in taxes in this state. And I'll also gladly pay more for a license if the state wants to charge more.

While yer at hypocrite, why don't you thank jims for his input on preference points. Or would it be because he opposes yer views that he's not worthy?

 

[elks96]

>Plain and simple: I drew
>1 limited elk tag in
>over 20 years of applying
>as a Wyo resident.
>Once Wyo started pref pts
>for nonres I've drawn 2
>bull elk tags and will
>likely draw my 3rd in
>the next year or so.
> The fact is, unless
>you apply for the toughest
>units in Wyo you will
>likely draw more tags!
>You will have a chance
>of drawing a tag every
>year in the random pool
>plus those that apply the
>longest will draw tags in
>the pref pt pool.
>
>Great system for Wyo nonres that
>currently only get around 10%
>of the total tags alloted.
> Wyo residents get 90ish%
>of total tags so the
>system will likely work even
>better for them! I
>hope it comes reality for
>Wyo residents!
>
>My vote goes for some sort
>of pref/bonus pt system where
>everyone stands a chance to
>draw tags and those with
>high pts have a better
>chance!

See and I am on the other end. Prior to PP in WY I was able to get tags every year maybe every otehr year. Now I am at 6 points and can't even compete.

Jim the real issue you are missing here is the manner on how the system is being forced. Form the stats above it is clear that residents did not want a system, but things could have changed since 2008. We do not know because there has not been a propper survey done. I also have some very good friends who hunted in WY for every single year from Cali. Bewtween them everyone got a tag in the group. 1 would draw a deer tag, one a lope tag, one drew both etc. But for the most part they all got something. In the rare chance they did not draw that person went to fish... Howver, they have not drawn tag since the points went into place. Once the do draw a tag they will be forced to look for animals for all instead of 3 deer, 3 lopes, etc. It will be 6 deer and 6 lopes in one season. they hunted like this for 17 years. Every single fall, but in the last 6 years they have not came back to WY.

The point is, for every thumbs up a system may get there are always a thumbs down. The real question is: Are the residents willing to deal with the negatives in order to have the perceived positives? At this point there is nothing that says yes with out a doubt they are...

I am not here to change a pro preference pointers(PPP) mind, but simply to share what I have seen happen with my tags and let them decide if they want the same results. Some will say it is worth it, other will say it is not. But at least they will have had an opportunity to hear from me.

The other issue I have JIM... Is that when CO 1st started the system the top units only took a resident 3-5 years to draw.. Then as thesystem evolved it got worse and worse. So while you have been able to draw a good tag 2 times, eventually the system gets filled with points and the waits between tags will grow, in all units, it is just a matter of how the system works. In a random system hunter can "drop out" when they want. In a PP system you are forced to stay in or loose ground. In a random system I can choose to go for a really easy tag 1 year and not sacrifice my ability to draw a tag the next, etc...

 

[elks96]

>LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-13
>AT 11:47?AM (MST)
>
>>JimS, I appreciate your passion for
>>hunting in Wyoming, and it
>>is obvious that you love
>>the point system as it
>>works for you as a
>>non-resident, but I'm not sure
>>why you feel the need
>>to try and influence the
>>process for resident hunters.
>
>The same could be said with
>elk96 spewing his rhetoric.
>The day a Wyoming elected
>rep or anyone at the
>G&F gives any stock to
>what a non resident has
>to say about about resident
>hunting issues is the day
>they need to fire or
>get rid of those folks...
>

I am spewing rhetoric and doing so because if I could, I would be a WY resident right now. The biggest reason why I would become a resident is for the current hunting and tag system you have!!! No way around it, it is awesome compared to everything I can compare it with...

So that being said, they may or may not listen to me. But I have a voice and a concern and I will speak up. You however may be OK with your elected rep. using a big horn sheep herd as leverage in a political chess match, or a rep who is willing to do anything he can to ensure himself one more great tag. Why is it all the sudden this guy not only is trying to get a PP system, but also get the transfer of PP going as well?

No ill will towards anyone, just sharing my experience and exactly what I have seen happen in CO. We have seen our system slowly transitions from general tags to limited quota. We have seen tags that were once OTC go to limited, we have seen units that could have been drawn on 7 points grow to over 20 points. I have seen cow elk tags shift from 2nd choice/leftover tags to requiring at least 1 point.

All of this I have seen despite the claims in teh 90s that it would not.

 

[BuzzH]

Rob,

I appreciate your efforts, but I think you're right...there is no way Hicks is going to listen to anyone.

He wont admit his legislation is garbage and isnt open to tabling his legislation for now. He isnt concerned with what other hunters think. He's not interested in a common sense approach to either HB124 or SF085...period.

Thats more than obvious by his excuse after excuse replies he's sent to you, me, and his lack of correspondence with many others that are flooding him with comments.

The funny part, is that he cant believe I'd suggest that anyone with an agenda like his should be shown the unemployment line come next election...really?

I guess he thinks that having the Legislature gerry-mandering into bighorn sheep management (and legislate where we're allowed to have wildlife in public lands), point transer bills, and unwanted preference point bill are going to endear him to the Hunting Commmunity.

If I had the desire to be re-elected to the Senate in Carbon County...I'd be listening to what the hook and bullet crowd has to say.

But, hey, its not my job thats on the line.

 

[WapitiBob]

He's a Senator. He's smarter than you two and he knows what's best.

 

[BuzzH]

WapitiBob,

Thats true.

We'll see who has the longer memory come election time though...

 

[dz]

I am a NR like some others who are in the heat of this. I do or should I say did plan to move to Wyoming. I have hunted in Wyoming about ten times over the past 25 years or so. I thought that the no income tax would make up for the wind and cold that my wife does not appreciate. The hunting is truly the main draw, and if I'm starting behind the curve on points I see no benefit. Although global warming is still coming it might just become more appealing. Also here in Oregon my Wife has lots of elk points. Maybe I can get some legislature to let me have all of them as right now I only get half. I will be letting my voice be heard too. Oh ya one more thing Triple_BB where do you hunt? I want to stay out of your way. As I have Oregon plates and it might rub you the wrong way if I happened to be on the same road your tax dollars pay for. Since I work in the Natural Gas industry I know that my dollars are paying some of your way, and so is a lot of the rest of the Americans out there.

DZ

 

[jims]

For those of you that are willing to look at facts take a look at these 2 graphs. It pretty much explains why tags are becoming tougher and tougher to draw in Wyo and Colo...not to mention the increase in nonres applicants!

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/WYPOP
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/COPOP

The fact is plainly clear that draw odds for high demand tags continue to rise in Wyo, Colo, and every state...as the population of hunters continues to rise across the US. Will Colo and Wyo continue to offer OTC/general tags in the coming years...I kind of doubt it!

Believe it or not if all elk units in Colo went to a draw there would be more hunters burning points each year and the CDOW would actually be able to manage game and hunting pressure a little more effectively? I would think the same would be true in Wyo for elk and deer?

 

[TOPGUN]

Begging your pardon, but those two graphs show the increase in the overall populations in CO and WY and do not extrapolate how many in that increase are actually hunters and that are applying for big game tags or PPs in either state. With that said, every person that does become a reident and applies for hunts would decrease ones opportunity if all the others keep applying as they have in the past.

 

[piper]

I think his point was about the growing human population in the west.
Wyoming has a high percentage of hunters and I know a lot of the new folks moving in around here hunt and fish, and if they don't at first, they quickly find out that its a popular thing to do.
I have noticed an increase in the amount of resident applicants
for pronghorns lately, anyone else notice that?

 

[SouthernWyo]

Can we back it up with real numbers? The last nubmers that I saw showed a steady decrease in resident hunter numbers (for deer) since a high point in the early '80s.

 

[TOPGUN]

I got his point, but in order to have really used stats to get his main point across he should have also had graphs showing the corresponding increase in hunters within those population increases. That's why stats, in and of themsleves, can be very misleading when someone tries to use them in a debate. In this case, I won't argue that there are probably more entering the draws every year, but it's getting to the point that you'll probably see a decrease for NRs to stay in the game with this upcoming price increase for 2014. Idaho and Montana have already experienced it and WY may be next, at least for some of the tags that now go pretty quick. Until the PP people that are really vested in the system apply and get out, I would imagine all of what's considered the premium tags will be sold for the next few years.