The Difference Between Utah And Wyomings Predator Solution

BuzzH said:
People went to jail for breaking game laws in Wyoming, not saving deer, something unfamiliar in Utah...I get it.

You guys give out free passes to offenders, in particular if they're outfitters.
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You totally missed the point of my thread......my head hurts now.
 
slamdunk said:
You totally missed the point of my thread......my head hurts now.
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Explain why you feel Wyoming is wrong, which your post most certainly implies, for fining and taking privileges away from Wildlife poaching offenders?

The point of your thread is that Wyoming is too harsh and shouldn't fine poachers for breaking the law, because they poached trophy game (lions), which kill deer.

Wyoming is not Utah (thankfully), we place a high value on both big and trophy game in this State. Further, we don't tolerate the poaching of our wildlife either.

If Utah put as much effort into catching poachers as you did trying to eliminate predators, you might be able to have some decent deer hunting.
 
In Utah, official estimates are more conservative. Craig Miya, assistant chief of law enforcement for the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, says the number of poached animals is figured to be equal to one third the number legally tagged.

Or, poaching in Utah claims about 23,000 deer, 3,000 elk, 500 antelope, 100 moose, 25 buffalo, along with who knows how many ducks, geese, pheasants, grouse, and, of course, bears, cougars, hawks and eagles each year.

www.deseret.com

ILLEGAL KILLS ARE A BIG PROBLEM IN UTAH

The body was that of a large bull moose. Missing were the head and antlers. Poachers had shot the animal, then used a chainsaw to take only what they wanted. - Missing were the feet, head and who knows what else. Certainly the gallbladder. In Asia, a dried gall from a bear is worth...
www.deseret.com www.deseret.com
 
BuzzH said:
Explain why you feel Wyoming is wrong, which your post most certainly implies, for fining and taking privileges away from Wildlife poaching offenders?

The point of your thread is that Wyoming is too harsh and shouldn't fine poachers for breaking the law, because they poached trophy game (lions), which kill deer.

Wyoming is not Utah (thankfully), we place a high value on both big and trophy game in this State. Further, we don't tolerate the poaching of our wildlife either.

If Utah put as much effort into catching poachers as you did trying to eliminate predators, you might be able to have some decent deer hunting.
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My point was both states are suffering declining deer herds.
Utah has an all out war on lions, while Wyoming punishes people for killing them.

Maybe the guys killing them realize one lion kills 20 deer a year and wants to be proactive, illegal or not?
 
BuzzH said:
In Utah, official estimates are more conservative. Craig Miya, assistant chief of law enforcement for the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, says the number of poached animals is figured to be equal to one third the number legally tagged.

Or, poaching in Utah claims about 23,000 deer, 3,000 elk, 500 antelope, 100 moose, 25 buffalo, along with who knows how many ducks, geese, pheasants, grouse, and, of course, bears, cougars, hawks and eagles each year.

www.deseret.com

ILLEGAL KILLS ARE A BIG PROBLEM IN UTAH

The body was that of a large bull moose. Missing were the head and antlers. Poachers had shot the animal, then used a chainsaw to take only what they wanted. - Missing were the feet, head and who knows what else. Certainly the gallbladder. In Asia, a dried gall from a bear is worth...
www.deseret.com www.deseret.com
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This thread has absolutely ZERO to do with poaching deer......?‍♂️
 
slamdunk said:
My point was both states are suffering declining deer herds.
Utah has an all out war on lions, while Wyoming punishes people for killing them.

Maybe the guys killing them realize one lion kills 20 deer a year and wants to be proactive, illegal or not?
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That all out war on lions isn't going to save UT deer herds, fact.

Maybe try making a half-hearted effort to get a handle on the 23,000 a year that are poached if you're at all serious about "saving deer".

The offenders in that article probably don't take any wildlife laws seriously. As per damn near always, have most likely violated wildlife laws their entire lives and got stung for a fraction of what they've done.

BTW, lions kill more along the lines of a deer/elk a week...study up.
 
slamdunk said:
My point was both states are suffering declining deer herds.
Utah has an all out war on lions, while Wyoming punishes people for killing them.

Maybe the guys killing them realize one lion kills 20 deer a year and wants to be proactive, illegal or not?
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Screenshot_20230930_220936_Chrome.jpg

Buzz waiting for the synapse to connect.....
 
BuzzH said:
That all out war on lions isn't going to save UT deer herds, fact.

Maybe try making a half-hearted effort to get a handle on the 23,000 a year that are poached if you're at all serious about "saving deer".

The offenders in that article probably don't take any wildlife laws seriously. As per damn near always, have most likely violated wildlife laws their entire lives and got stung for a fraction of what they've done.

BTW, lions kill more along the lines of a deer/elk a week...study up.
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You seriously are causing an aneurysm here, I can't take it.

Tell your FnG, Wyoming has a massive poaching issue as well, wanna talk about the Baggs area 100?
And while you're at it, a couple thousand lions will kill a hell of a lot more does (which recruit fawns btw) than killing bucks will.
Those lion poachers in my thread just saved your state 156 deer a year (your math).

Why are you even arguing with me???

Are you seriously saying 23k deer a year are being poached?
I know the wardens don't catch them all, but 23k is your assessment?

I'm taking up golf......
 
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slamdunk said:
You seriously are causing an aneurysm here, I can't take it.

Tell your FnG, Wyoming has a massive poaching issue as well, wanna talk about the Driggs area 100?
And while you're at it, a couple thousand lions will kill a hell of a lot more does (which recruit fawns btw) than killing bucks will.
Those lion poachers in my thread just saved your state 156 deer a year (your math).

Why are you even arguing with me???

Are you seriously saying 23k deer a year are being poached?
I know the wardens don't catch them all, but 23k is your assessment?

I'm taking up golf......
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No, the Utah division of Wildlife is saying so, argue with them.

I know Wyoming has a poaching issue, we border Utah.
 
BuzzH said:
No, the Utah division of Wildlife is saying so, argue with them.

I know Wyoming has a poaching issue, we border Utah.
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You're right, my bad....I see their claims of 23k which is damn scary.

You think Utahns are responsible for Wyoming's poaching numbers because we border you?
If you don't think your own citizens do not poach with all that barren secluded land, you're fooling yourself.

Again, this thread isn't about poaching, it's about the differences in management of mountain lions.
 
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It looks like you two have it figured out,I’ll let Big Stiffy moderate and I will move on to a different thread
 
Good grief, did anyone read the article.
Yes they needed to get fined, trespassing and taking a mt lion without a license.
Yes, Wyoming has quotas on mt lions in most areas and they broke the law.
We need more taken but laws need to be followed.
They were illegal in almost all they did on that hunt.

Not taking Buzz's side but read the article, they deserved the fines they got.
And yes, we need more mt lions taken I believe. Trapping them would help, I'm all for that.

Sat in on a necropsy in California over a mt lion that had killed 32 sheep in one incident, just killed them as they walked by and didn't eat any of them. They can do real damage to game herds.
 
slamdunk said:
My point was both states are suffering declining deer herds.
Utah has an all out war on lions, while Wyoming punishes people for killing them.

Maybe the guys killing them realize one lion kills 20 deer a year and wants to be proactive, illegal or not?
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It was way over his head. I wouldn’t even try if I were you
 
I to read the article and can't see how anyone could stand up for these folks. Trespassing, no license, switching licenses and lying. Poaching is poaching. As hunters we cannot pick good poaching over bad poaching. I have no dog in this fight but anybody that thinks they should not have been convicted might want to take a look at a hunter safety magazine. We still need some sort of ethical behavior as it is going away fast.
 
Rumpot said:
I to read the article and can't see how anyone could stand up for these folks. Trespassing, no license, switching licenses and lying. Poaching is poaching. As hunters we cannot pick good poaching over bad poaching. I have no dog in this fight but anybody that thinks they should not have been convicted might want to take a look at a hunter safety magazine. We still need some sort of ethical behavior as it is going away fast.
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I agree 100%, absolutely these guys poached by legal definition.

My point of this thread is not about poaching, it is all about the difference in Utah's stance for reducing lion population to help mule deer while Wyoming punishes for it.

Irony.....
 
slamdunk said:
I agree 100%, absolutely these guys poached by legal definition.

My point of this thread is not about poaching, it is all about the difference in Utah's stance for reducing lion population to help mule deer while Wyoming punishes for it.

Irony.....
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Then why post the article about convicted poachers?

No matter what management plan each state decides on, poachers and violators of that plan should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Plus, it's up to the citizens of Wyoming how we choose to manage our wildlife here.

If you want to compare management strategies, I'll take Wyoming's wildlife management across the board over anything Utah does. Not even debatable which is working better.
 
BuzzH said:
Then why post the article about convicted poachers?

No matter what management plan each state decides on, poachers and violators of that plan should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Plus, it's up to the citizens of Wyoming how we choose to manage our wildlife here.

If you want to compare management strategies, I'll take Wyoming's wildlife management across the board over anything Utah does. Not even debatable which is working better.
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Fair enough
 
slamdunk said:
I agree 100%, absolutely these guys poached by legal definition.

My point of this thread is not about poaching, it is all about the difference in Utah's stance for reducing lion population to help mule deer while Wyoming punishes for it.

Irony.....
Click to expand...

Except that one guy can't seem to catch on what the point was...

But whoever said he was quick on his feet?

:ROFLMAO:
 
mtmuley said:
Where did someone get punished for helping wildlife? mtmuley
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They "poached" 3 lions and were punished.
3 lions equals approximately 50 lions per year according to Buzz's math (which I agree with).

They poached by definition, but saved a lot of deer theoretically.

I am failing to understand how the comparison between state regulations of Mountain Lions is being misunderstood ?
 
JPickett said:
The complex concept of contrast is a tough one for some slam. Try and keep it simpler around here please
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Right, one state places wildlife in high regard, one doesn't. One state is tough on poachers, one isn't. One state doesn't peddle a majority of it's best wildlife to the wealthy, one does.

Finally, if the idea is to compare lion management between two states, it's best to do that instead of posting articles about poachers, liars, and trespassers.

Just sayin'.
 
slamdunk said:
am failing to understand how the comparison between state regulations of Mountain Lions is being misunderstood ?
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Another good trick is try not to use too many three syllable words in post. That can really tip some of these guys over.

Ironically enough it’s usually utards but seems Wyoming has some window lickers too
 
BuzzH said:
Right, one state places wildlife in high regard, one doesn't. One state is tough on poachers, one isn't. One state doesn't peddle a majority of it's best wildlife to the wealthy, one does.

Finally, if the idea is to compare lion management between two states, it's best to do that instead of posting articles about poachers, liars, and trespassers.

Just sayin'.
Click to expand...
Didn't I mention "irony" in my thread?
 
slamdunk said:
They "poached" 3 lions and were punished.
3 lions equals approximately 50 lions per year according to Buzz's math (which I agree with).

They poached by definition, but saved a lot of deer theoretically.

I am failing to understand how the comparison between state regulations of Mountain Lions is being misunderstood ?
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Right, so what you're saying is that poaching, transferring licenses, falsifying affidavits, and trespassing are fine as long as a few deer are saved.

Like I said from the start, what other laws do you think it's ok to violate as long as it saves a deer?
 
BuzzH said:
Right, so what you're saying is that poaching, transferring licenses, falsifying affidavits, and trespassing are fine as long as a few deer are saved
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Exactly what he’s saying. Good comprehension

What flavor is a window anyway?
 
BuzzH said:
Right, one state places wildlife in high regard, one doesn't. One state is tough on poachers, one isn't. One state doesn't peddle a majority of it's best wildlife to the wealthy, one does.

Finally, if the idea is to compare lion management between two states, it's best to do that instead of posting articles about poachers, liars, and trespassers.

Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

Wrong.
 
BuzzH said:
Is there any irony in having a 365 day lion season to "save the deer" in Utah so that 23,000 deer can be poached annually?

Laffin'...
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I cannot dispute that, you are correct.

FWIW, I am going to propose equal or higher penalties for poaching does, as does produce fawns, while bucks only produce antlers.
Does build herds....
 
JPickett said:
Exactly what he’s saying. Good comprehension

What flavor is a window anyway?
Click to expand...
Like I said, one state takes poaching seriously one doesn't.

Pro tip:

When you decide to poach, trespass, falsify affidavits, transfer licenses, etc. I would highly recommend doing so in Utah rather than Wyoming.
 
BuzzH said:
Like I said, one state takes poaching seriously one doesn't.
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Not arguing the 23k poaching claims, but what is Wyoming's annual deer poaching percentage based on the amount of residents that inhabit each state?

Utah by will have a higher everything due to the amount of people living here.
 
slamdunk said:
Not arguing the 23k poaching claims, but what is Wyoming's annual deer poaching percentage based on the amount of residents that inhabit each state?

Utah by will have a higher everything due to the amount of people living here.
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IME, if you're trying to save deer, it's the total poached that matters, not a percentage based on per capita poaching.

Trying to justify and make excuses for 23,000 poached deer because you have more people there does nothing to save deer.

I mean you'll only have to kill 460 additional lions a year to account for poaching loss.

Sounds attainable, unless you think about it.
 
slamdunk said:
They "poached" 3 lions and were punished.
3 lions equals approximately 50 lions per year according to Buzz's math (which I agree with).

They poached by definition, but saved a lot of deer theoretically.

I am failing to understand how the comparison between state regulations of Mountain Lions is being misunderstood ?
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Poaching to save deer. Got it. Didn't work out so well for the deer savers. mtmuley
 
BuzzH said:
IME, if you're trying to save deer, it's the total poached that matters, not a percentage based on per capita poaching.

Trying to justify and make excuses for 23,000 poached deer because you have more people there does nothing to save deer.

I mean you'll only have to kill 460 additional lions a year to account for poaching loss.

Sounds attainable, unless you think about it.
Click to expand...

You don't have a freaking clue what this thread is about. You'd think someone who spent a "bad ass" career in government, mooching off the efforts of others and interpretating regulations could figure out what it's about.

Laffin'.
 
roadrunner said:
You don't have a freaking clue what this thread is about. You'd think someone who spent a "bad ass" career in government, mooching off the efforts of others and interpretating regulations could figure out what it's about.

Laffin'.
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When you have nothing, make personal attacks...about right.

Oh, and *interpreting is the word you were looking for.
 
BuzzH said:
IME, if you're trying to save deer, it's the total poached that matters, not a percentage based on per capita poaching.

Trying to justify and make excuses for 23,000 poached deer because you have more people there does nothing to save deer.

I mean you'll only have to kill 460 additional lions a year to account for poaching loss.

Sounds attainable, unless you think about it.
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Explain how and where I was justifying poaching?
Are you freaking kidding me right now??
 
slamdunk said:
Explain how and where I was justifying poaching?
Are you freaking kidding me right now??
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"Yeah but, poaching 3 lions saved 150 deer".

"Yeah but, Utah has more people so of course we expect more deer to be poached".
 
BuzzH said:
"Yeah but, poaching 3 lions saved 150 deer".

"Yeah but, Utah has more people so of course we expect more deer to be poached".
Click to expand...
I was most definitely NOT "justifying" poaching.

If you would relax and open your mind to the initial meaning of this thread which is OBVIOUSLY pointing out these two differences in predator control laws, you'd understand that 3 lions equal 50+ deer (your math).

I am in no way shape or form "justifying" them breaking laws.

You're patting your states back about saving lions, I'm patting my states back for taking predator control to a maximum level and actually taking proactive steps to rebuild and or help save what we currently have.

In the end, yes these guys poached by your states laws, absolutely not disputing that at all.
 
slamdunk said:
I was most definitely NOT "justifying" poaching.

If you would relax and open your mind to the initial meaning of this thread which is OBVIOUSLY pointing out these two differences in predator control laws, you'd understand that 3 lions equal 50+ deer (your math).

I am in no way shape or form "justifying" them breaking laws.

You're patting your states back about saving lions, I'm patting my states back for taking predator control to a maximum level and actually taking proactive steps to rebuild and or help save what we currently have.

In the end, yes these guys poached by your states laws, absolutely not disputing that at all.
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A Mod would never justify poaching. Right? mtmuley
 
slamdunk said:
I was most definitely NOT "justifying" poaching.

If you would relax and open your mind to the initial meaning of this thread which is OBVIOUSLY pointing out these two differences in predator control laws, you'd understand that 3 lions equal 50+ deer (your math).

I am in no way shape or form "justifying" them breaking laws.

You're patting your states back about saving lions, I'm patting my states back for taking predator control to a maximum level and actually taking proactive steps to rebuild and or help save what we currently have.

In the end, yes these guys poached by your states laws, absolutely not disputing that at all.
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Our quotas aren't even met most years, how is that "saving lions"?

Wyoming manages lions and bears at relatively low numbers.
 
BuzzH said:
IME, if you're trying to save deer, it's the total poached that matters, not a percentage based on per capita poaching.

Trying to justify and make excuses for 23,000 poached deer because you have more people there does nothing to save deer.

I mean you'll only have to kill 460 additional lions a year to account for poaching loss.

Sounds attainable, unless you think about it.
Click to expand...

How's Harvest reporting coming in Wyoming. Wyoming doesn't have any idea how many deer are harvested legally.
 
Thank GAWD Buzz was able to dig up an article from

1992, to try and make a point.


ILLEGAL KILLS ARE A BIG PROBLEM IN UTAH
By Deseret News Sept 29, 1992, 12:00am MDT
Ray Grass, Outdoor Editor


31 years ago.

Well played genius!!?
 
hossblur said:
Thank GAWD Buzz was able to dig up an article from

1992, to try and make a point.


ILLEGAL KILLS ARE A BIG PROBLEM IN UTAH
By Deseret News Sept 29, 1992, 12:00am MDT
Ray Grass, Outdoor Editor


31 years ago.

Well played genius!!?
Click to expand...
23k poachings in 1992 explains why we don't have any deer in 2023 ?
 
slamdunk said:
23k poachings in 1992 explains why we don't have any deer in 2023 ?
Click to expand...


Buzz is just smart enough to realize that he tried to spin your post in a dumazz direction, then desperately googled for backup.

Of course he wasn't smart enough to check the article date.

Then, tries to use it against the ACTUAL post from the DWR this year.


"Pure men of genius"
 
LivingTheDream said:
How's Harvest reporting coming in Wyoming. Wyoming doesn't have any idea how many deer are harvested legally.
Click to expand...
We have harvest reporting, I've filled out harvest reports for elk, deer, and pronghorn each of the past 22 years I've lived in Wyoming.
 
What is really sad is that Colo may follow in California's footsteps and eliminate mtn lion hunting with dogs. You may laugh, but this same thing could happen some day in neighboring states.
 
23000 poached deer each year in Utah equals 63 deer per day. Last year Utah sold 73075 general season deer tags. If the state wide success rate is say around 40% then 29230 deer were killed legally.
Craig Miya, assistant chief of law enforcement for the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, says the number of poached animals is figured to be equal to one third the number legally tagged.
Then in their article they claim 179 deer were poached in 2022
Somethins not adding up
Wes
 
Wes said:
23000 poached deer each year in Utah equals 63 deer per day. Last year Utah sold 73075 general season deer tags. If the state wide success rate is say around 40% then 29230 deer were killed legally.
Craig Miya, assistant chief of law enforcement for the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, says the number of poached animals is figured to be equal to one third the number legally tagged.
Somethins not adding up
Wes
Click to expand...
1992 article.....pay no attention.

That is also the days we had 230k deer tags compared to less than 80k today.
Buzz is just grasping at straws.
 
Wes said:
23000 poached deer each year in Utah equals 63 deer per day. Last year Utah sold 73075 general season deer tags. If the state wide success rate is say around 40% then 29230 deer were killed legally.
Craig Miya, assistant chief of law enforcement for the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, says the number of poached animals is figured to be equal to one third the number legally tagged.
Then in their article they claim 179 deer were poached in 2022
Somethins not adding up
Wes
Click to expand...
If people didn't poach, you could sell 90-100k.
 
slamdunk said:
1992 article.....pay no attention.

That is also the days we had 230k deer tags compared to less than 80k today.
Buzz is just grasping at straws.
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Right, you systematically ignore poaching which is a bigger problem than predators.

But, it's your State, ignore away.

Keep us posted how many lions you personally kill.
 
Buzz said:
BTW, lions kill more along the lines of a deer/elk a week...study up
Right, you systematically ignore poaching which is a bigger problem than predators.

The DWR estimates the Utah mountain lion population at 2300 animals. So if each lion kills a deer or elk a week that equates to 119600 animals killed by lions alone. And I'm gonna assume deer are easier for a mountain lion to kill then elk that deer are going to make up the majority of those 119600 animals.
So I would say predators ARE more of a problem then poachers
( I'm not supporting poachers, just pointing out the discrepancies)
Wes
 
BuzzH said:
Right, you systematically ignore poaching which is a bigger problem than predators.

But, it's your State, ignore away.

Keep us posted how many lions you personally kill.
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So 179 convicted poachings, probably that many unreported equals roughly 358 poached deer.
I'll double that and give you the benefit of doubt for conversation sake at 716 poached deer.

Now for reality sakes and I'll use YOUR estimate at a deer a week.

Utah's estimated lion number is approximately 2000 statewide.
Your number is one a week?
2000x52=


Do you want to add that up, or should i?

Tell me again how poaching is a bigger problem than lions alone?
Wanna guess on Coyotes and Bears?

Why are we even arguing this?
Seriously.......
 
Wes said:
Buzz said:
BTW, lions kill more along the lines of a deer/elk a week...study up
Right, you systematically ignore poaching which is a bigger problem than predators.

The DWR estimates the Utah mountain lion population at 2300 animals. So if each lion kills a deer or elk a week that equates to 119600 animals killed by lions alone. And I'm gonna assume deer are easier for a mountain lion to kill then elk that deer are going to make up the majority of those 119600 animals.
So I would say predators ARE more of a problem then poachers
( I'm not supporting poachers, just pointing out the discrepancies)
Wes
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Thank you Wes......I just answered almost word for word what you did.
Buzz will struggle to understand.
 
slamdunk said:
So 179 convicted poachings, probably that many unreported equals roughly 358 poached deer.
I'll double that and give you the benefit of doubt for conversation sake at 716 poached deer.

Now for reality sakes and I'll use YOUR estimate at a deer a week.

Utah's estimated lion number is approximately 2000 statewide.
Your number is one a week?
2000x52=


Do you want to add that up, or should i?

Tell me again how poaching is a bigger problem than lions alone?
Wanna guess on Coyotes and Bears?

Why are we even arguing this?
Seriously.......
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Again it's that whole do some studying and research.

There's been numerous studies conducted that show the illegal take of big game may equal or exceed the legal take.

You're living somewhere between denial and Fantasyland if you think even 1 out of 50 poaching incidences result in the offender being caught.
 
He doesn't struggle.

He lets his mouth write checks his azz can't catch, then someone gets tired of his act, does research, or math, and boom, suddenly he'll go personal.

Want a real laugh. Ask him how he "stopped One Shot" in Wyoming, then go read his public testimony.
 
BuzzH said:
Again it's that whole do some studying and research.

There's been numerous studies conducted that show the illegal take of big game may equal or exceed the legal take.

You're living somewhere between denial and Fantasyland if you think even 1 out of 50 poaching incidences result in the offender being caught.
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Not a Utah exclusive issue
 
You know what’s maybe the funniest part of the compression failure of slams post here?

It’s if you read the title of the post itself then still can’t understand what he was eluding to :ROFLMAO: Man there are some dolts on here:LOL:
 
JPickett said:
You know what’s maybe the funniest part of the compression failure of slams post here?

It’s if you read the title of the post itself then still can’t understand what he was eluding to :ROFLMAO: Man there are some dolts on here:LOL:
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*compression?

Nothing funnier than a compression failure.
 
JPickett said:
You know what’s maybe the funniest part of the compression failure of slams post here?

It’s if you read the title of the post itself then still can’t understand what he was eluding to :ROFLMAO: Man there are some dolts on here:LOL:
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It's actually frightening ?
 
The true number of deer killed in Utah will never be known but with the legal & illegal harvest and predation by lions, bears, coyotes, bobcats, eagles and whatever other predator thats out there, combined with road kill and human encroachment our deer herds are in serious trouble.
Wes
 
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Wes said:
The true number of deer killed in Utah will never be known but with the legal harvest and predation by lions, bears, coyotes, bobcats, eagles and whatever other predator thats out there, combined with road kill and human encroachment our deer herds are in serious trouble.
Wes
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And poaching.
 

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