The REAL way to get muledeer numbers to go up!!

[notrace]

I have No Doubt that if we started killing substantially more Elk and reducing the herd numbers you will see a increase in deer numbers!!!

I say this has been the number one downfall of many deer areas I honestly feel that it's much more beneficial then buck to doe ratios and even winter range..

#1 Reduce Elk numbers!
#2 Kill predators

But some of you think large numbers of elk can co-exist with muledeer!!

Sadly it's happened to so many of the best muledeer areas look into places like Deseret Land and livestock.

DLL and surrounding areas use to have some of the best deer hunting areas in northern utah and now the numbers are at some if not the lowest they have ever been and it's been going down as fast as the elk numbers have gone up!!

 

[SirHuntsalot]

FYI - Lost Creek Area had 3000 antlerless tags issued per year back in the early 80's. I'm sure that also contributed to the lower deer numbers we have today. Lots of antlerless hunts around areas with alot of private property back then.

 

[HikeHunt61]

This Wyoming G&F publication outlines 9 reasons for declining deer populations in their state, and 7 strategies for counteracting them. It seems pretty evident that elk are competing in some ways with mule deer- but they believe it is broader than that.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/Mule%20Deer%20Initiative/Mule-Deer-Initiative.pdf

 

[hossblur]

So cull the species that is thriving to keep a failing species from failing faster?

Makes zero sense

 

[TheOneRidgeRunner]

How many elk are on the Pine Valley unit, the Henry's, the Oak Creeks, hell lets throw Antelope Island in there also? Whats killing the elk on those units going to help???

 

[elkassassin]

Everybody Blames One Thing & One F'N Thing Only!

The List Is Big!

When The KING Finally Realizes How Big It Is He'll Realize That HELL-RIGHT Ain't Far Off!

How many elk are on the Pine Valley unit, the Henry's, the Oak Creeks, hell lets throw Antelope Island in there also? Whats killing the elk on those units going to help???

 

[elkassassin]

Must Be Them Damn Elk!

How many elk are on the Pine Valley unit, the Henry's, the Oak Creeks, hell lets throw Antelope Island in there also? Whats killing the elk on those units going to help???

 

[D_Hoyt]

I think building homes in their traditional winter ranges; fragmenting migration corridors with highways and fences; drought; unprecedented winters; the number of motor vehicle collisions due to more cars and increased speed limits; poaching; predators; diseases; antlerless hunts; uncharacteristic and catastrophic wildfires; invasive plant species like cheatgrass; and encroachment of conifers and junipers into traditional aspen forests and the sagebrush are all contributing factors. I'm sure I missed other factors in my list.

Deer are primarily browsers and elk are primarily grazers - unless winter conditions are extreme like this past winter and they start competing with each other. Carrying capacities only matter when food resources are limited, with the exception of diseases transmission.

Deer are more fragile than elk - they have lower fawn recruitment than elk and the don't live as long. It's a multiplier effect.

I think we need to stop being so myopic in our thinking and look at their range and all the contributing factors as a cohesive system. When we put all our focus into one or two factors, we unintentionally neglect other factors. It has to be a holistic approach or it will not result in resilient deer herds.

The current future of hunting in Utah is elk hunting...unless wolves get introduced and established.

 

[hossblur]

YUP.

Kinda the dirty secret no one wants to look at.

Evolution in practice.

It's not just elk either. Whitetails have exploded in population because they can adapt to the world as it is now.

There will never be a time again with widescale poisoning, foothills free of homes, fewer people.

I'd be curious, of the dudes who constantly *****, how many kids do they have?

Utah, is an elk state. Times have changed, evolution is real.

 

[elkhunterUT]

I think building homes in their traditional winter ranges; fragmenting migration corridors with highways and fences; drought; unprecedented winters; the number of motor vehicle collisions due to more cars and increased speed limits; poaching; predators; diseases; antlerless hunts; uncharacteristic and catastrophic wildfires; invasive plant species like cheatgrass; and encroachment of conifers and junipers into traditional aspen forests and the sagebrush are all contributing factors. I'm sure I missed other factors in my list.

Deer are primarily browsers and elk are primarily grazers - unless winter conditions are extreme like this past winter and they start competing with each other. Carrying capacities only matter when food resources are limited, with the exception of diseases transmission.

Deer are more fragile than elk - they have lower fawn recruitment than elk and the don't live as long. It's a multiplier effect.

I think we need to stop being so myopic in our thinking and look at their range and all the contributing factors as a cohesive system. When we put all our focus into one or two factors, we unintentionally neglect other factors. It has to be a holistic approach or it will not result in resilient deer herds.

The current future of hunting in Utah is elk hunting...unless wolves get introduced and established.

I love posts like this that are rational and 100% fact based. So many variables at play in a very complex environment, especially when it comes to mule deer. Combine that with a thousand different social opinions (some like elk hunting more than deer hunting) on how to do things and you find yourself pushing rope up a hill.

 

[slamdunk]

I can offer my "observation" (not a biological guess).

I grew up hunting in the Strawberry Valley, mostly south side of the Reservoir from Soldier Creek to Ray's Valley.

In the 80's and early 90's there were very high numbers of deer.
We would run up scouting in a July afternoon and see groups of bucks in almost every drainage.

Interesting fact.....we saw very few elk as the herds hadn't exploded yet.

Then the deer slowly started disappearing and the elk numbers steadily increased.

It got to a point where if we saw a single doe in areas we used to see numerous bucks was a good sight.

Now elk numbers in that particular area are lower (post 2000 cow elk tags given in subsequent seasons) and deer are most definitely without question starting to make a comeback.

I'm not saying it's all due to elk numbers, but it certainly appears to be linked......or it's pure irony ?

 

[notrace]

So cull the species that is thriving to keep a failing species from failing faster?

Makes zero sense

No you are looking at it backwards!

The major reason for declining deer numbers is infact the over population of elk!!

If you bring elk numbers down deer numbers will infact go up..

Killing thousands of elk especially on areas like lost creek in northern utah will not threaten elk but will infact help muledeer and elk!!

The DNR needs to tell these CWMU Operators that there is going to be a lot more cow tags issued on there CWMU'S .

Then if the CWMU'S don't agree to kill more cow elk and bring the herd numbers into check then they will loose there CWMU'S!! And they are welcome to have there hunters apply in the general tag application and hunt the general hunts with the general hunt dates not the almost 3 months worth of virtually unconditional hunting they have been given!!

 

[roadrunner]

The current future of hunting in Utah is elk hunting...unless wolves get introduced and established.

"...until wolves get introduced and established"

 

[notrace]

I can offer my "observation" (not a biological guess).

I grew up hunting in the Strawberry Valley, mostly south side of the Reservoir from Soldier Creek to Ray's Valley.

In the 80's and early 90's there were very high numbers of deer.
We would run up scouting in a July afternoon and see groups of bucks in almost every drainage.

Interesting fact.....we saw very few elk as the herds hadn't exploded yet.

Then the deer slowly started disappearing and the elk numbers steadily increased.

It got to a point where if we saw a single doe in areas we used to see numerous bucks was a good sight.

Now elk numbers in that particular area are lower (post 2000 cow elk tags given in subsequent seasons) and deer are most definitely without question starting to make a comeback.

I'm not saying it's all due to elk numbers, but it certainly appears to be linked......or it's pure irony ?

I am also not saying it's the only reason for deer numbers to drop.


Muledeer will be the first to have there numbers drop off when there is a problem and right now the problem is there is way to many mouths out there eating the food l!!

There is a lot of science behind it but common sense that elk are much better at changing over there diet and competing with muledeer and in winters large herds of elk can devastate muledeer feed infact to a point that that feed will die!


What people need to decide is if they really want to save muledeer and at a cost of having a few less elk???

You could kill off thousands of elk in northern utah and it would only help both elk and deer..

I personally believe but I'm not 100% positive that elk are also reason for moose numbers declining..

I for one love hunting elk but I won't give up on muledeer!!

 

[notdonhunting]

How many elk are on the Pine Valley unit, the Henry's, the Oak Creeks, hell lets throw Antelope Island in there also? Whats killing the elk on those units going to help???

The Pine Valley unit is hurting from from drought (winter range), building homes (Central, Pine Valley, Brookside, Veyo, Dameron Valley), and Highway 18.
The Henry's is hurting because of drought, the unit is a desert.
The Oak Creek is diffently not hurting and yes there is a small population of elk but it used to be a much larger population of elk and the deer herd was not much to talk about. Then they opened the elk unit to over the counter increased the cow elk permits, the elk herd numbers went down and the deer numbers went up.
They did have several large fires that has diffently improved deer habitat and there has been some beneficial water projects on the unit, so I am not contributing the deer population growth to just the elk demise, but i would say the lower elk numbers helped with the improved deer numbers.

 

[notrace]

ANTELOPE ISLAND!!

Hell there hurting due to a billion coyotes!!!

And the fact there so inter- breed I'm surprised there even out there..

 

[notrace]

Must Be Them Damn Elk!

You telling me I'm wrong????


Come on know ut all tell me where I'm wrong in my statement unlike you and you're stupid 4 word comments I will listen to reason...

Lost Creek was a great muledeer destination now it's full of elk and year after year from the 80s deer numbers drop elk numbers rise.


Show me where deer do good when elk numbers are skyrocketing???

 

[hossblur]

No you are looking at it backwards!

The major reason for declining deer numbers is infact the over population of elk!!

If you bring elk numbers down deer numbers will infact go up..

Killing thousands of elk especially on areas like lost creek in northern utah will not threaten elk but will infact help muledeer and elk!!

The DNR needs to tell these CWMU Operators that there is going to be a lot more cow tags issued on there CWMU'S .

Then if the CWMU'S don't agree to kill more cow elk and bring the herd numbers into check then they will loose there CWMU'S!! And they are welcome to have there hunters apply in the general tag application and hunt the general hunts with the general hunt dates not the almost 3 months worth of virtually unconditional hunting they have been given!!

Deer numbers reversed long before elk exploded.

The long term trend for mulies, across the west, is in decline. Why on earth would hunters want to further limit themselves by culling elk opportunity?

Especially in the real world. Ain't gonna be less development, fewer roads, less ATV/snowmobiles.

We all like deer, but the vast majority of us, aren't specialists, we like to do all the above.

 

[notrace]

Deer numbers do decline and come back after a bad winter.

The fact that now with so many elk there is no real rebound!!


You might want to look into those facts!

Also I am into the same boat I love hunting muledeer and elk and if we kill off a few thousand elk in northern utah it really won't hurt elk but infact will help elk in the long run.

I know people out there can not understand thos concept less is more but in this case less elk right now where we are so far over capacity on elk will make healthier bigger elk and you will see deer numbers grow..

If you like hunting muledeer and elk? Killing a bunch of elk will only help you're cause.

 

[hossblur]

Deer numbers do decline and come back after a bad winter.

The fact that now with so many elk there is no real rebound!!


You might want to look into those facts!

We have roughly the same herd as we did in the 90's.

And at the rate deer tags get cut, we will have more elk hunters soon

 

[elkassassin]

Anybody Ever Thought About The Extra Hunting Pressure That's happened in the Last Few Decades!

Overlapped & Continuous Non-Stop Hunting From Mid-August through January with F'N Cow Killer Hunts!

I Hope That Doesn't Offend Anybody!

Them 2 for 1 Hunts Don't Impress Me Much!

I can offer my "observation" (not a biological guess).

I grew up hunting in the Strawberry Valley, mostly south side of the Reservoir from Soldier Creek to Ray's Valley.

In the 80's and early 90's there were very high numbers of deer.
We would run up scouting in a July afternoon and see groups of bucks in almost every drainage.

Interesting fact.....we saw very few elk as the herds hadn't exploded yet.

Then the deer slowly started disappearing and the elk numbers steadily increased.

It got to a point where if we saw a single doe in areas we used to see numerous bucks was a good sight.

Now elk numbers in that particular area are lower (post 2000 cow elk tags given in subsequent seasons) and deer are most definitely without question starting to make a comeback.

I'm not saying it's all due to elk numbers, but it certainly appears to be linked......or it's pure irony ?

 

[elkassassin]

We've Already Had More Elk Hunters!

Pay Attention hossy!

We have roughly the same herd as we did in the 90's.

And at the rate deer tags get cut, we will have more elk hunters soon

 

[notrace]

The 90s where not good numbers.

 

[slamdunk]

ANTELOPE ISLAND!!

Hell there hurting due to a billion coyotes!!!

And the fact there so inter- breed I'm surprised there even out there..

Although I believe this statement to be true, the objective and resources on AI has never been to grow deer, Bison and Bighorn Sheep are the focus.
I have spoken to biologists out there about the masses of coyotes and have been told they keep the predators high to keep the deer numbers in check through fawn predation therefore hunting isn't needed.
The two deer tags are strictly for income.

 

[slamdunk]

"...until wolves get introduced and established"

S.B. 36 Wolf Management Bill of 2010 protects our state from this happening.

Unless there has been a change that I am unaware of.

 

[notrace]

Sadly the federal government has no care for the majority of people and what what is best!!!

The minority with load mouths are getting what they want and that in this case is wolfs..


Wolf's will in my opinion be much harder on elk numbers then muledeer mainly because there's a lot of elk everywhere!!

 

[cannonball]

Here is the three piggy story! These represent two friends and a DWR representative I ran across on the mountain. This first person was a close friend who actually worked for the DWR, but not in the big game area. We were at the time trying to get three-point or better in place and receiving a lot of resistance from Utah's finest DWR. This friend said why are you people doing that? What you should be concentrating on is stopping the killing of the doe. Hunters chase the doe so long they end up in the fields and small towns and then there is a doe hunt. He then said until you get organized these doe hunts will silently be destroying the deer herds.

The second friend said I've done my part for years to help the deer herds. No one has an open mind and listens, the people in power have their own agenda and after all of these years of trying, I'm tired. The next generation (young hunters) have to do their part or suffer the consequences. I am through! If they don't get a vision and take up the fight, the deer herd will be all, but gone. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

The last man in this true story was the DWR representative. He was in his truck watching the low foothills over seeing the valley during a late elk hunt. I pulled up to the side of him and struck up a conversation about the elk hunt. Then I changed the story and ask about the deer. I ask him if the deer hit the the little town of which they frequenting or the fields which they are readily seen in the late fall and winter, what happens then. His short answer was if we get a complaint we have a doe hunt. Nothing more? Nope-We have a doe hunt.

That's the story. I'm tired too and my hunting Big Game is nearly over.

Take the fight or lose the deer. Frankly I'd bet we lose the deer.

 

[notrace]

Here is the three piggy story! These represent two friends and a DWR representative I ran across on the mountain. This first person was a close friend who actually worked for the DWR, but not in the big game area. We were at the time trying to get three-point or better in place and receiving a lot of resistance from Utah's finest DWR. This friend said why are you people doing that? What you should be concentrating on is stopping the killing of the doe. Hunters chase the doe so long they end up in the fields and small towns and then there is a doe hunt. He then said until you get organized these doe hunts will silently be destroying the deer herds.

The second friend said I've done my part for years to help the deer herds. No one has an open mind and listens, the people in power have their own agenda and after all of these years of trying, I'm tired. The next generation (young hunters) have to do their part or suffer the consequences. I am through! If they don't get a vision and take up the fight, the deer herd will be all, but gone. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

The last man in this true story was the DWR representative. He was in his truck watching the low foothills over seeing the valley during a late elk hunt. I pulled up to the side of him and struck up a conversation about the elk hunt. Then I changed the story and ask about the deer. I ask him if the deer hit the the little town of which they frequenting or the fields which they are readily seen in the late fall and winter, what happens then. His short answer was if we get a complaint we have a doe hunt. Nothing more? Nope-We have a doe hunt.

That's the story. I'm tired too and my hunting Big Game is nearly over.

Take the fight or lose the deer. Frankly I'd bet we lose the deer.

Sadly I see you're point but there's a lot of places that do not fit the story..

I'm afraid people think the more elk the better and don't realize what high elk numbers will do to muledeer and the winter range..

 

[cannonball]

It certainly fits the second friend and your right about the elk. What have you done. Just saying it here doesn't get the job done. Even the Governor listens sometimes. Awaken Lad, if you have not already done so .

 

[slamdunk]

Neither ungulate species is going anywhere permanently, they will survive a yo yo cycle regardless.

Nothing we will ever do will find a perfect medium for both to thrive at the level that us sportsmen would like to see, because we are asking for a fairytale.

Weapon restrictions, technology changes, hunt dates and tag allotment changes, conservation efforts, predator extermination.....these are just tools in the toolbox to keep the car running, but there are far too many natural variables we fight annually to ever reach a perfect place.....it's impossible.

Cut up your tag, feed a hungry deer, plant a bush, build a guzzler......do whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy about doing "something", but don't do absolutely nothing while criticizing those who do.

 

[notrace]

I'm not asking for a perfect solution I'm just saying thinning the elk herd is going to make a big difference on muledeer numbers..

I don't believe that .muledeer will be going away but I do see a point in them being not hunted or very very limited if we don't do something soon because we have let elk herds grow out of control!!

Kill a cow elk (legal) save a few deer!!

 

[roadrunner]

I'm not asking for a perfect solution I'm just saying thinning the elk herd is going to make a big difference on muledeer numbers..

I don't believe that .muledeer will be going away but I do see a point in them being not hunted or very very limited if we don't do something soon because we have let elk herds grow out of control!!

Kill a cow elk (legal) save a few deer!!

A lion will kill more deer in a year than an elk will...

 

[notrace]

A lion will kill more deer in a year than an elk will...

Ya 1 to 1 that might kinda be true but there are thousands more elk then cats!!

Simple math simple logic!!

Kill one cat save a deer a week kill a cow save 3 or 4 deer a year..

But we can only kill so many ? ?

And even though everyone thinks cats only eat deer they eat moose mice elk other cats turkey's grouse etc etc etc...

 

[hossblur]

The 90s where not good numbers.

That's when $fw started saving the mule deer by advocating huge cuts in tags, that's why I use that era

 

[roadrunner]

Ya 1 to 1 that might kinda be true but there are thousands more elk then cats!!

Simple math simple logic!!

Kill one cat save a deer a week kill a cow save 3 or 4 deer a year..

But we can only kill so many ? ?

And even though everyone thinks cats only eat deer they eat moose mice elk other cats turkey's grouse etc etc etc...

...and, 20 cats will kill 1,000 deer per year. 20 cows will kill 80...

You're right. Simple math, the logic may not be so simple though.

 

[hossblur]

Here's a question for the tag cutters to create more quality.

How about we make a deal.

Let's end rifle hunting, on general season units.

The success rates will lower, meaning more big bucks, and allowing more tags.

What do you say, want to hunt? Or is shooting a gun more important?

 

[notrace]

That's when $fw started saving the mule deer by advocating huge cuts in tags, that's why I use that era

Ohhh I understand why you used the 90s

Sadly I'm not a total fan on all the foundations MDF SFW RMEF etc etc etc

I do infact go to the banquets time to time bur all I see is a bunch of people donating there time and money to big foundations that eat up a lot and do little to honestly help..

Sadly this can be fixed but some people do not want it fixed.

 

[slamdunk]

Here's a question for the tag cutters to create more quality.

How about we make a deal.

Let's end rifle hunting, on general season units.

The success rates will lower, meaning more big bucks, and allowing more tags.

What do you say, want to hunt? Or is shooting a gun more important?

Sounds fun, but it's not saving does and regenerating the overall herd sizes.
We're just feeding more bucks on a winter range that a fawn or pregnant doe could be eating ?

I wouldn't oppose shutting down the rifle, but then my muzzleloader hunt would be flooded with both types of hunters.
Then I'd have change my muzzleloader scope vote to open sights only ?

 

[notrace]

...and, 20 cats will kill 1,000 deer per year. 20 cows will kill 80...

You're right. Simple math, the logic may not be so simple though.

I don't want to kill 80 cows I want to have thousands killed!! That's what I am talking about.

Killing enough cows to get the herd back to objective is not going to hurt the elk herds

I'm talking about common sense fixes..

We can and should kill off a bunch of elk without hurting elk herds..

Sadly I'm not sure how many cats we can kill before we kill to many..

I'm thinking places like Deseret don't care if they kill a couple more hundred elk off there property but I bet the surrounding CWMUS hate the idea because there making a living off of the overpopulation of elk in the area!!

 

[roadrunner]

I don't want to kill 80 cows I want to have thousands killed!! That's what I am talking about.

Killing enough cows to get the herd back to objective is not going to hurt the elk herds

I'm talking about common sense fixes..

We can and should kill off a bunch of elk without hurting elk herds..

Sadly I'm not sure how many cats we can kill before we kill to many..

I'm thinking places like Deseret don't care if they kill a couple more hundred elk off there property but I bet the surrounding CWMUS hate the idea because there making a living off of the overpopulation of elk in the area!!

80 deer killed by 20 cows using your data, not 80 cows killed. Killing 20 cows will "save" 80 deer. Killing 20 cats will "save" 1,000 deer.

 

[hossblur]

Sounds fun, but it's not saving does and regenerating the overall herd sizes.
We're just feeding more bucks on a winter range that a fawn or pregnant doe could be eating ?

I wouldn't oppose shutting the rifle but, but then my muzzleloader hunt would be flooded with both types of hunters.
Then I'd change my muzzleloader scope vote to open sights only ?

Damn it slam.

I floated that out to make a point, and to listen to a select few go ballistic.

The point being that doing so would leave more bucks on the landscape, but not really change the trajectory.

Next time I'll give you a heads up so you don't blow out the point ?

 

[hossblur]

I don't want to kill 80 cows I want to have thousands killed!! That's what I am talking about.

Killing enough cows to get the herd back to objective is not going to hurt the elk herds

I'm talking about common sense fixes..

We can and should kill off a bunch of elk without hurting elk herds..

Sadly I'm not sure how many cats we can kill before we kill to many..

I'm thinking places like Deseret don't care if they kill a couple more hundred elk off there property but I bet the surrounding CWMUS hate the idea because there making a living off of the overpopulation of elk in the area!!

And THIS is where the the stupidity manifests.

We just lost MORE HUNTERS with deer tag cuts.

So now we should cull off elk, losing those hunters too?

Without a doubt, one of the dumbest ideas going.

How about, NO, let's not turn a success story into a failure.?

 

[Dangbig]

And THIS is where the the stupidity manifests.

We just lost MORE HUNTERS with deer tag cuts.

So now we should cull off elk, losing those hunters too?

Without a doubt, one of the dumbest ideas going.

How about, NO, let's not turn a success story into a failure.?

How is it stupid? On many units there is to many elk period. It has had an affect on the deer in many areas. We have elk where they were never around before.
In most units you can only shoot a stupid spike or waste two dozen years waiting to hunt a big bull at the expense of the deer.

 

[hossblur]

How is it stupid? On many units there is to many elk period. It has had an affect on the deer in many areas. We have elk where they were never around before.
In most units you can only shoot a stupid spike or waste two dozen years waiting to hunt a big bull at the expense of the deer.

First, learn history. Utah was covered with elk, until Europeans tried to end their existence, so your just wrong to start with.

In most units, yearling deer are the bucks that are most often killed, so there's not much difference in spikes or pisscutters.

It's further stupid, because as I keep saying, we keep cutting out more and more hunters, then wonder why hunters and their issues are near the back of the line.

Anything that results in less hunters, is bad for hunting.

Elk, are a long ways down on "hurting" deer.

 

[Dangbig]

First, learn history. Utah was covered with elk, until Europeans tried to end their existence, so your just wrong to start with.

In most units, yearling deer are the bucks that are most often killed, so there's not much difference in spikes or pisscutters.

It's further stupid, because as I keep saying, we keep cutting out more and more hunters, then wonder why hunters and their issues are near the back of the line.

Anything that results in less hunters, is bad for hunting.

Elk, are a long ways down on "hurting" deer.

Show me writing that proves elk were everywhere? Bighorn were more common in most of the journals that I have read along with Grizzlies but most of what I have read about is on the northern utah units
The biologist I have spoken to say for every elk we kill it will save 4-5 deer.
If you want elk on every hill you won’t have as many deer period.
If you put 10 animals in a corral with the correct amount of feed they are good add 20 more on the same amount of feed some die, pretty simple o sorry stupid. I never said cut out hunters if anything I would promote more tags going after excess bulls on spike units. Besides loss of habitat and road kill,elk are pretty high on the list of things hurting deer read a little of the published article on the subject or just enjoy being right

 

[hossblur]

What is this biologists name? And I want to see the study he and you are posting showing 4-5 deer deaths per elk.

I'd also like to know where your hunting that has elk on every hill.

WYOGF just published an actual study on the 9 things affecting deer. Yes, elk were on it. No, they don't kill deer, they displace them. Deer are shitty competitors.

Cars, development, predators, fire suppression, disease, hunting structures, range loss, drought elk.

Feel free to read it, or keep talking to "biologists".

Not sure your age. I actually hunted PRIOR to spike hunts. The deer were already decimated from the 80's, then again in the early 90's. BEFORE spike hunts lead to elk explosion. Elk had zero to do with a decade plus of substantial herd loss.

I also, hunted the exact same place, west of Manti, for 25 years. Not an elk ever seen, houses big, thick horned bucks. Same deer decline. Same on the desert. Same on units with few to no elk.

The 40,000 elk hunters, might not be so agreeable.

But further. If you cull elk, you will then after a year or 2 need to cut back tags. Thus reducing hunters.

At a time when antis are starting a strategy to get their people into the leadership of wildlife management, guys like you want to weaken hunters and their power, for a species that is struggling throughout the west, regardless of elk.

Yeah, that a dumb idea

 

[Dangbig]

What is this biologists name? And I want to see the study he and you are posting showing 4-5 deer deaths per elk.

I'd also like to know where your hunting that has elk on every hill.

WYOGF just published an actual study on the 9 things affecting deer. Yes, elk were on it. No, they don't kill deer, they displace them. Deer are shitty competitors.

Cars, development, predators, fire suppression, disease, hunting structures, range loss, drought elk.

Feel free to read it, or keep talking to "biologists".

Not sure your age. I actually hunted PRIOR to spike hunts. The deer were already decimated from the 80's, then again in the early 90's. BEFORE spike hunts lead to elk explosion. Elk had zero to do with a decade plus of substantial herd loss.

I also, hunted the exact same place, west of Manti, for 25 years. Not an elk ever seen, houses big, thick horned bucks. Same deer decline. Same on the desert. Same on units with few to no elk.

The 40,000 elk hunters, might not be so agreeable.

But further. If you cull elk, you will then after a year or 2 need to cut back tags. Thus reducing hunters.

At a time when antis are starting a strategy to get their people into the leadership of wildlife management, guys like you want to weaken hunters and their power, for a species that is struggling throughout the west, regardless of elk.

Yeah, that a dumb idea

Yes I also hunted prior to the spike hunt, I saw the drops in the 80s and early 90s
Even seen deer fluctuations in the 70s
I will read up on this thanks for hooking me up with this writing
I hunt the Ogden unit and it is mostly private and there are elk everywhere and yes they have displaced the deer.
We used to never see elk and I miss good deer hunting
Not trying to weaken hunters by any means, there has to be a balance somewhere here.

 

[hossblur]

Yes I also hunted prior to the spike hunt, I saw the drops in the 80s and early 90s
Even seen deer fluctuations in the 70s
I will read up on this thanks for hooking me up with this writing
I hunt the Ogden unit and it is mostly private and there are elk everywhere and yes they have displaced the deer.
We used to never see elk and I miss good deer hunting
Not trying to weaken hunters by any means, there has to be a balance somewhere here.

It's posted in the Wyoming forum.

Deer hunting in n Utah isn't hampered by elk. It's devistated by us people

 

[elkassassin]

Remember:

hossy Is All For Cutting Tags & Cutting Tags Up!

As Long As They Are Not His Own Tags!

 

[ruger1022]

Correlation does not imply causation. Just because numbers of elk are up and deer are down, does not mean that elk are responsible for the declining deer population.