The reality of the stimu-loss

[huntindude]

I think it's safe to say not many are happy about the stimulus plan, and it's pretty safe to say it's not going to work.

Then it's time to look at what it really is, a great deal of this money is money we had to spend anyway. it extends unemployment , were we really going to cut off unemployment checks? no. it pays for health care, were we really going to have tallow trucks hauling off the bodies we refused to treat? no. it pays for education, many states education funds are broke so were we gong to let them go to 3 day shcool weeks? no. it pays for road and bridge upgrades and repair, were we really going to park our vehicles? no.

Then there are energy projects, some good and some bad. then there is the stupid stuff, like that's anything new.

So my bottom line is I think this plan is dumb, but I think most of the money was going to be spent stimuloss or no stimuloss. to those who cry about the debt and how the republicans tried to champion conservative values remember this, when Bush took office the national debt was 5.7 trillion, when he left it was 10.7 trilion. so he doubled the debt during the gold rush days, is it unreasonable to spend a fraction of the debt he stacked up now during the worst economic times we've seem since WWII? either way I think we're screwed but one needs to see this isn't all money we could have saved in the first place.

 

[D13er]

Don't you think it is ironic how the federal government screams...jobs, jobs, jobs......but has destroyed so many companies by regulation?...recently the big Peanut Company..hundreds of employees and fairly recently Hallmark meats....yes , they both had safety issues...but we go so overboard...enough so as to totally destry them.


great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB

 

[NeMont]

HD,

So the current spending spree is still the fault of Bush? Obama plans to double our debt again within a 2 year period. Trillion dollar budget deficit for as far as he can predict.

Geithner is proposing spending another $2 trillion on propping up the banks.

Just because Bush racked up trillion didn't make it right anymore the Obama racking up additional trillions. The states need to cut back and so does the Federal Government. We need to cut up the national credit card and let corporations and companies fail, if that means reduces state and federal revenues because of falling tax reciepts so be it. The rest of this is just phony, smoke and mirrors.

We would not have come close to spending $800 Billion on unemployment benefits and other entitlements this year or in the coming years. We would not have come close to that number by letting people go on to medicaid either. That is the oldest red herring trotted out by the left wing.

Throwing good money after bad is always a terrible idea whether you are an individual, business or government. Just because the Republicans had horrible policies doesn't mean that spending now is justified based upon those policies.

Nemont.

 

[overton]

Dude

Obama will double the debt in 4 years.

 

[CAelknuts]

I never cease to be amazed at how many people who are interested in politics ignore the true source of spending at the national level.

ALL spending bills originate in the House of Representatives. Those who like to blame Bush, and yes I realize he participated in the spending by signing the bills, fail to acknowlege the role of the House of Representatives in this out of control spending.

I wonder if they conveniently forget that detail because of the party that controls,and has controlled, the House?

 

[huntindude]

The president sends his budget to the house for approval, so just how do you hold the president harmless ? if you want to play that game who had control of both houses and the whitehouse from 2000-2006? and did all this debt Bush stacked up come after the dems gained their small majority or not? check it out and report back.

Nemont I'm not at all saying the dems have the right to barrow & blow money just because the nonconservatives did, I'm saying isn't it more understandable due to the fact we're in a depression rather that in what was called a robust economy? when Bush took office the national debt was 5.7 trillion bucks, when he left it was 10.7 trillion and he started the bailout fiasco on his way out the door. so for the republicans to champion their new found conservative values as if they're looking out for the nation is world class hypocricy anyway you look at it. imagine what we could do with that 5 trillion dollars we just blew on ....what was it? we could pay everyone's bills and live large with no more national debt than we had pre stimu-loss. we both know this bill is a farse, all I'm saying is most of it was going to be spent anyway and the rest is peanuts compared to the money we blew in the last 10 years.

If you want to worry about something watch the bank bailout, that's where the big money is going to go just watch. it's a truely bipartisan screw up in anyones book, I can't wait to see how the republican'ts try to slip that one in Obama's pocket.

 

[NeMont]

The fact is that we can't go back and get the money that was borrowed and spent.

I don't think it is going to matter what the Republicans want to stick in Obama's pocket. He is going to put enough baggage in his own pocket and given the fact that his party now has complete control and they are spending far more than even the previous administration did we will be longing for the day that we owed "only" $10 Trillion.

While the old bank bailout was a joint effort the new one under Geithner is going to 100% a Democrat effort. After already pledging $9.7 Trillion to help the economy, Geithner is going to set up another $2 trillion to help banks.

So I could care less about blame because both parties have sucked. The total control of the government by the Democrats will be as bad or worse for this country as was the total control by the Republicans. You cannot spend your way out of an overspending problem.

Nemont

 

[piper]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-09 AT 05:53PM (MST)[p]Many economists like Paul Krugman claim the lack of spending and fear of deficit spending by the Hoover adnmistration brought on the worst of the great depression,maybe? They think it would be unproductive to have 25% unemployment in the country, I would imagine that myself, I could see how it might get out of hand. in fact Ive heard it said at 15% we will have real problems, rampant crime and a break down in our society. We made some big mistakes in this country and now we have problems. Can only hope Obama follows through on what he says and we start acting on the big underlying problems in the countrys economic structure. Both sides of congress are look to be the real problem. Jared Diamond, the author of Guns,Germs and Steel, guesses we have a 51% chance of succeding, and 45% chance of not.

 

[huntindude]

Nemont the blame game doesn't change the mess were in I understand that but by the same token I don't think it's fair to blame the dems for a feeble attempt to fix what the former administration watched happen.

Lets just forget how we got here and where that insignificant 5 trillion dollars went and focus on how we do damage control now. my point once again is most of this money was going to be spent anyway, if you disagree what would you have done with all these people out of work and depending on unemployment and medicade since they lost their insurance? it's easy to fault this stupid stimulus but it's not all willy nilly spending. what about the bank bailout? we've just made a down payment on that so far, in the past some nations bank bailouts has run as high as 100% of the GNP, those nations came out and survived but you ain't seen nothing yet for borrowing and spending I'll bet you on that. worst part is, I don't have a better plan and niether do you.

 

[NeMont]

Piper,

I don't think there is any doubt that things would break down. Crime is already on the rise. Obama is set to ignite a trade war which will be worse for our economy then any shooting war we are in.

Trickle down economics didn't work out the problem is the solutions imposed from the top down by government have never worked long term.

The facts remain that we are broke, we cannot repay the money we already borrowed and all this stimulus is going to do is hasten the day that we do become a third world country. It doesn't really matter who gets the blame. I don't care who is blamed but none of the current cast of characters are telling the American people the truth and are going to continue the failed ideas that government stimulate the economy. Government is and always will be a burden and it will always distort the market place.

It doesn't matter at all because no one in Washington is brave enough to come clean. It will not matter which party is in power.

All I know is that I am almost completely out of dollar denominated assets, other them my real property. Look at the money supply numbers, they are exploding and with it prices are set to sky rocket. If you think the little man had a tough time making end meet in the Bush years just wait.

Nemont

 

[NeMont]

HD,

I don't disagree with your premise. All I am saying is that we cannot afford it any longer. The rest of the world is rapidly catching on that we are broke and they aren't going to be repaid.

They will soon stop throwing their hard earned money at our country or they will do as the Chinese have begun to do and come over here and purchase our real assets with all the dollars they hold.

You must have never seen the amount paid to people on unemployment. It ain't close to the price tag that just the interest on $800 billion will end up being.

My opinion doesn't matter because all this is going to happen. Bernanke and Geithner are going to cut every tree on the planet to print as much money as they can and in the end the people who demanded this stimulus will be demanding the government set the price for all goods and services because they are sky rocketing.

I am choosing to limit my exposure as good as I can but in the end I don't think anyone will go untouched. The bank bailout is just more of the same. Confiscating money from taxpayers to reward failed banks. Another Two Trillion but at this point I don't really care any more. Our country is too far gone and until we as Americans get that we are doomed to slip further and further.

Nemont

 

[piper]

Nemont-I guess what you are saying is you are into gold and silver? I usually do the wrong thing when it comes to making money, anyway Im going to go buy a fixer upper somewhere, and then hope some inflation hits within the next few years.

 

[NeMont]

What you should to is go borrow as much money as banks will loan you and buy a ranch or a farm or anything on which you can produce anything on. Trust me you won't have to worry about inflation showing up. The technical definition of inflation is already here, the huge expansion in the money supply.

I have a position in gold but it is not my only holding outside the U.S.

Look, I hope in a couple of year somebody looks at my posts on this forum and can see that I am 100% wrong and the biggest idiot to ever be allowed near a keyboard. I want America and Americans to succeed and prosper, I have young children who are still in High School and Grade School, I want what is best for them. Unfortunately it is my firm belief that in the end I will end up being over 90% right about what I am saying.

Nemont

 

[ismith]

NeMont,
Me and you are on the same page. From where I stand things are looking pretty grim.
ismith

 

[NORKALNIMROD]

Can you say "socialism"?
Norkal

 

[huntindude]

Nemont

I think we pretty much view this disaster in the same way, I'm just saying Ok what do we do?


Here is the #1 problem with sitting back and doing nothing. this nation cannot and will not survive a major depression, we are not the same people we were pre WWII. no way are the millions of dead beats and low lifes going to stand in line looking for a $3 an hour job, and we have many millions of hard working people who would be under a bridge if we watch from the sideline. we have too many people in deep debt, too many dead beats and too many looking for any excuse to riot and steal. in the end this will probably bring us down anyway but I think the plan is to hold that off as long as we can. Obama's plan is stupid, but the republicans plan is to oppose Obama, that's no plan.

Money doesn't matter if we go into chaos and lose all order, it may not happen right away but I'm confident in time it would. the generation that went through the last depression had 100 times the honor and pride our society does today. be careful what you ask for, because I don't think you'd like it.

 

[NeMont]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-09 AT 11:04AM (MST)[p]HD,

I agree with all of that, the only difference is I don't believe we can do anything about it. Spending all this money will not stave off the coming problems, it will only dig us a deeper hole to get out of.

Whether or not the current Americans can endure is most likely going to be academic. They are going to have to endure because that is how the system works. I don't like anymore then you do but that is reality. No amount of spending on our governments behalf is going to stop the course we are on. It may delay it for a couple of years or at least long enough to get Obama reelected but in the end it will all turn out the same.

I would have the country bite the bullet today and begin a massive shift away from consumption. Anybody can consume, a 2 year old can consume but wealth is created by production, we don't produce much. Stop taxing savings at the rate it is currently taxed, tax consumption to tamp it down and get behaviors that are "good" for the economy long term. It would be painful, it would dislocate millions of people but in end we would have a real economy rather then the phony economy we have had for the past 30 years.

I would stop borrowing money and face the fact that all governments are going to have to cut back. Let interest rates rise instead of manipulating them to create bubbles. Just wait until the bond bubble bursts and see how that is going to destroy all the people who fled to bonds. (of course this is all fantasy because I would never get elected on such a "radical" idea of living within our means)

Instead of facing facts and explaining this Obama has decided to let Geithner and Bernanke run the printing presses and attempt to paper over all of these problems. It will only end in rapidly increasing prices of basic goods and energy. If you hated $4 gas just wait.


Nemont

 

[huntindude]

You must have more faith in the majority of non productive members of our society than I do, I don't think a cup of chicken shadow soup is going to keep them at home and happy. once they start rioting they draw in others who may not normally have acted that way and the first thing you know you have looting and total chaos. the whole mess snowballs with commerce interupted, people can't go to work, fixing the damaged property ect ect. sure those of us in rural areas probably wouldn't see much of it but the economic effects of it would be felt by te whole nation.

I don't want to sound like one of our bomb shelter living right wing nut jobs but I see some chaotic times ahead if we try to repeat the last great depression, I'm not sure we want to go there and not just for the city people's good but for our own.

One thing I will aree 100% with you on is the standard of living and expectations in this county are in for a big adjustment, from here on only rich people are going to own the things rich people own and do the things they do. we need to learn as a nation having money and having credit are two different things. if we survive this depression we can work on that, so the first priority is to survive.

 

[NeMont]

I have no faith in non productive members of society. I am saying none of it matters because the coming problems are coming regardless of what the government does. It is going to be disruptive and crime and rioting is probably will happen.

I think a prudent person does prepare for the coming chaos. Peronally my goal is to have on hand at least 6 months worth of food for my family of 5 and hopefully a years worth of food. I am having my house wired so that I can run it off a generator. Stock up on stuff other people may want too, I dont' know maybe cigarettes or booze

There is a fine line between prudence and paranoia.


Nemont

 

[huntindude]

True story, but if we can survive this and people see the error of living beyond their means maybe there is hope. dead beats are dead beats and nothing is going to change them, but the average Joe might wake up and change where we're headed.

This is the wake up call we needed, but the old saying what doesn't kill you makes you stronger means we can't let it kill us, there is hope but we have to keep it together. we will borrow tons of money no way around it, but if we don't we're dead anyway so we have nothing to lose.

If I sound optimistic, I'm not. but if you give up you know you're toast.