theory...or...fact...

M

manny15

Guest
I'm just keeping the silent majority informed, don't shoot the messenger ....LOL...

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A Presentation to leaders in Cobb County, Georgia
and petitions as a massive show of support to school board leaders in Cobb County, Georgia -- where a federal judge has BANNED a sticker which simply states that "evolution is a theory, not a fact."


Cobb County school board leaders have shown great courage. They are going to fight the ACLU and the federal courts that want to make it unconstitutional to teach evolution as a theory! evolutionists have gone too far this time. They have exposed their radical agenda, which is to impose evolution, not as a theory but as indisputable fact...
 
The ACLU is the biggest bunch of hypocrites in the country. They say they fight for people's constitutional rights, but I've never seen them stand up for the second amendment. They'll fight for a group of pedifiles rights to write a news letter with instructions on how to "pick up little kids", but find the ten commandments "offensive". They're a joke, and stand for everything that's wrong and backwards in this country.
 
I like the "open mind" BS. Open it too much and your friggin brains will fall out. That my friends, are the problem with tax and spend liberals!!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-05
>AT 03:27?PM (MST)
>
> LOOKS LIKE A BAD
>TYPE,CUT,AND PASTE JOB. NICE TRY
>MANNY. ..YD.
===========================================================
Y.D...Are you saying that I manipulated the facts...I simply took out the words that were referring to me directly. That's all...but here it is if you want all the words ...

+ CENTER FOR RECLAIMING AMERICA
Dr. Gary Cass, Executive Director

Please see below and take action with me.
--Gary

2/17/05

emanuel,

Here?s another update on the evolution sticker battle
that started in Cobb County, Georgia.

The battle is beginning to spread. Kansas school board
leaders have indicated that they would defend placing
similar stickers in textbooks throughout their state.
(See below for a link to our full report.)

Meanwhile, the Center for Reclaiming America's grassroots
effort continues to grow dramatically. In the past few
days, we have seen over 31,000 citizens sign our petition
calling on schools to teach evolution as a theory and
not as fact.

We now have 96,404 signers, and I'm asking for
your help in the next 24 hours to push us over 100,000.

Please take a moment right now to sign this vital petition
insisting that evolution be taught as a theory and not a fact:

http://www.cfra.info/163/petition.asp?RID=4449379

+ + Presentation to leaders in Cobb County, Georgia

emanuel, I am preparing to personally present these petitions
as a massive show of support to school board leaders in Cobb County,
Georgia -- where a federal judge has BANNED a sticker which simply
states that "evolution is a theory, not a fact."

Click here to see the sticker:

http://www.cfra.info/163/petition.asp?RID=4449379

I also want to announce to those attending our Reclaiming America
For Christ Conference this weekend that we have exceeded 100,000
signers in just a few weeks -- but I need your help to eclipse
100,000 this week!

+ + This could be our defining moment!

emanuel, I believe the evolutionists have gone too far this
time. They have exposed their radical agenda, which is to impose
evolution,
not as a theory but as indisputable fact, on our children.

Cobb County school board leaders have shown great courage. They are
going to fight the ACLU and the federal courts that want to make it
unconstitutional to teach evolution as a theory!

Now, their battle is spreading across the country. This sticker
could become the defining symbol of this battle.

Thank you for your help!

Dr. Gary Cass
Executive Director
Center for Reclaiming America

+ + Sign the "Our Kids Deserve The Truth" Petition

http://www.cfra.info/163/petition.asp?RID=4449379

+ + For the latest on the evolution issue:

http://www.reclaimamerica.org

+ + Sticker Controversy Spreads!

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/Pages/News/newspage.asp?story=2471

+ + "California School District Sued Over Darwin-Only Rule":

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/Pages/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=2390

+ + "Judge: Schools Must Remove 'Evolution is Theory' Stickers":

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/Pages/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=2355

+ + Help Coral Ridge Ministries Mobilize Evangelism Explosion (E.E.)
Missionaries in Southeast Asia:

http://www.crmail.org/public/lib.aspx?lid=752

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
The Center for Reclaiming America, established by Dr. D. James Kennedy,
is an outreach of Coral Ridge Ministries to inform the American public
and motivate Christians to defend and implement the biblical principles
on which our country was founded. The Center, led by Executive Director
Dr. Gary Cass, provides non-partisan, non-denominational information,
training, and support to all those interested in impacting the culture
and renewing the vision set forth by our Founding Fathers.

Questions? [email protected]

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This begs a question...should this be won in court. What then are our children going to be taught? Creationism? Doesn't that then fall into religion as a state-sponsored class?
 
>This begs a question...should this be
>won in court. What
>then are our children going
>to be taught? Creationism?
>Doesn't that then fall into
>religion as a state-sponsored class?
>


As I understand it, evolution & creation ect; are to be taught as theory...on a scientific basis..,..,..let the kids make up their own minds, but when you leave out what you don't like, such as creation, or teach evolution as fact thats discrimanation...

equal time is the only thing thats being sought, as far religion being taught, leave that for a church...
===============================================
Eric'

I don't know where you get your info from , but it ain't accurate, evolotion a fact...come on man get real...scientist just did a DNA on Neanderthal man, and found no, none, natha, of ape like gene's in his DNA...he was all human!...


heres a good read for yah...
====================================================

Q: Who was the Neanderthal Man?





A: Neanderthal was fully human!

The evolutionist's notion that man evolved by chance from ape-like creatures is largely based upon certain anatomical similarities between apes and men. Being convinced that such similarities "prove" an evolutionary relationship, paleoanthropologists have declared certain fossil apes to be particularly "man-like" and, thus, ancestral to man. Similarly, in an effort to fill the gap between apes and men, certain fossil men have been declared to be "ape-like" and, thus, ancestral to, at least, "modern" man. You might say this latter effort seeks to make a "monkey" out of man.


Humans are rarely found in the fossil record. This may be partly explained by the sort of habitat in which man typically lived, and by the extraordinary conditions required for fossilization (sudden burial in water-borne sediment which hardens before decomposition of the bones). The best known human fossils are of Cro-Magnon man (whose marvelous paintings are found on the walls of caves in France) and Neanderthal man. Both are true men and are accordingly classified today as Homo sapiens.


Neanderthal man was first discovered in 1856 by workmen digging in a limestone cave in the Neander Valley near Dusseldorf, Germany. This specimen consisted of a fossilized skull cap, two femurs, two humeri and other bone fragments. The fossil bones were examined by an anatomist (professor Schaafhausen) who concluded they were human. At first, not much attention was given to these finds but, with the publication of Darwin's On the Origin of Species in 1859, the search began for the imagined "ape-like ancestors" of man. William King, an Irish geologist, reexamined the fossil skull of Neanderthal man and promptly declared that the "thoughts and desires which once dwelt within it never soared beyond those of a brute." Clearly, anatomists are no match for geologists when it comes to discerning fossilized thoughts! Darwinians argued that Neanderthal man was an ape-like creature, while many critical of Darwin (like the great anatomist Rudolph Virchow) argued that Neanderthals were human in every respect, though some appeared to be suffering from rickets or arthritis.


Over 300 Neanderthal specimens have now been found scattered throughout most of the world, including Belgium, China, Central and North Africa, Iraq, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Greece, north western Europe and the Middle East. This race of men was characterized by prominent eyebrow ridges (like modern Australian aborigines), low forehead, long narrow skull, a protruding upper jaw, and a strong lower jaw with a short chin. They were deep-chested, large-boned individuals with a powerful build. It should be emphasized, however, that none of these features fall outside the range of normal human anatomy. Interestingly, the brain size (based on cranial capacity) of Neanderthal man was actually larger than average for that of modern man, though this is rarely emphasized. Anthropologists have long attempted to correlate brain size with intelligence and some have even biased their measurements of cranial capacity in an apparent effort to down-grade the intelligence of "less favored" races, such as blacks and Indians (see The Mismeasure of Man by evolutionist Steven J. Gould, W. W. Norton & Company, 1981). There is, in fact, a broad range of variation in brain size among normal humans, but there is no known relationship between mere brain size and intelligence.


Despite the overwhelming evidence that Neanderthals were simply a race of stocky humans, imaginative artists (with the encouragement of some evolutionists) have consistently rendered them as stooped "ape-men." For years, visitors entering Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History were obliged to pass between a frightening pair of life-sized statues of a very bestial appearing Neanderthal couple. Today, the Museum has finally replaced these erroneous statues with a more accurate representation of erect standing human-like Neanderthals. The old ones, however, were moved to the second floor near the dinosaur skeletons, where they will continue to fuel the imaginations of generations of school children, who will believe they have actually seen "ape-men"!


Most of the misconceptions about Neanderthal man resulted from the claims of a Frenchman (Marcelin Boule) who, in 1908, studied two Neanderthal skeletons that were found in France (LeMoustier and La Chapelle-aux-Saints). Boule declared Neanderthal men to be anatomically and intellectually inferior brutes who were more closely related to apes than humans. He asserted they had a slumped posture, a "monkey-like" arrangement of certain spinal vertebrae, and even claimed that their feet were of a "grasping type" (like those of gorillas and chimpanzees). Boule concluded that Neanderthal man could not have walked erectly, but rather must have walked in a clumsy fashion. These highly biased and inaccurate views prevailed and were even expanded by many other evolutionists up to the mid-1950s.


In 1957, the anatomists William Straus and A. J. Cave examined one of the French Neanderthals (La Chapelle-aux-Saints) and determined that the individual suffered from severe arthritis (as suggested by Virchow nearly 100 years earlier), which affected the vertebrae and bent the posture. The jaw also had been affected. These observations are consistent with the Ice Age climate in which Neanderthals had lived. They may well have sought shelter in caves and this, together with poor diet and lack of sunlight, could easily have lead to diseases that affect the bones, such as rickets. In any event, the big toe was definitely not prehensile (grasping) as Boule had claimed, and the pelvis was not found to be ape-like. In their report they commented that: "if he (Neanderthal man) could be reincarnated and placed in a New York subway provided he were bathed, shaved and dressed in modern clothing it is doubtful whether he would attract any more attention that some of its other denizens." (Quarterly Review of Biology, December, vol. 32, pp. 348-63) In fact, today one could dispense with the bath and the shave!


Perhaps our best impression of what Neanderthal man actually looked like comes from the work of the forensic artist, Jay Matterens. Matterens, who specializes in "fleshing out" skeletons with modeling clay to aid in the identification of homicide victims, worked closely with anthropologists to "flesh out" a skeleton of Neanderthal man. The result, pictured prominently on the cover of the magazine Science 81 (October, 1981), was essentially indistinguishable from modern man! Matterens admitted that he had to fight against his preconceptions to reconstruct what the measurements showed. The accompanying article in the magazine pointed out that: "in the view of many paleoanthropologists, the story of human evolution has been fictionalized to suit needs other than scientific rigor."


In addition to anatomical evidence, there is a growing body of cultural evidence for the fully human status of Neanderthals. He buried his dead and had elaborate funeral customs that included arranging the body and covering it with flowers. He made a variety of stone tools and worked with skins and leather. There is even evidence which suggests that he engaged in medical care. Some Neanderthal specimens show evidence of survival to old age despite numerous wounds, broken bones, blindness and disease. This suggests that these individuals were cared for and nurtured by others who showed human compassion.


Still, efforts continue to be made to somehow dehumanize Neanderthal man. Some investigators have insisted that Neanderthal man was anatomically incapable of speech but recent studies show that he had a laryngeal anatomy entirely consistent with speech. One of the world's foremost authorities on Neanderthal man, Erik Trinkaus, concludes: "Detailed comparisons of Neanderthal skeletal remains with those of modern humans have shown that there is nothing in Neanderthal anatomy that conclusively indicates locomotor, manipulative, intellectual or linguistic abilities inferior to those of modern humans." (Natural History vol. 87, p. 10, 1978). Why then are there continued efforts to make apes out of man and man out of apes?


In one of the most remarkably frank and candid assessments of the whole subject and methodology of paleoanthropology, Dr. David Pilbeam (professor of anthropology at Yale) suggested that:


"perhaps generations of students of human evolution, including myself, have been flailing about in the dark; that our data base is too sparse, too slippery, for it to be able to mold our theories. Rather the theories are more statements about us and ideology than about the past. Paleoanthropology reveals more about how humans view themselves than it does about how humans came about. But that is heresy." (American Scientist, Vol. 66, p. 379, May/June 1978).


Oh, that these heretical words were printed as a warning on every text book, magazine, newspaper article and statue that presumes to deal with the bestial origin of man!


Originally published in St. Louis MetroVoice, March 1995, Vol. 5, No. 3"

One can organize a group of vehicles from simple to complex: Unicycle, Bicycle, Scooter, Motorcycle, Model A, 57 Chevy, and a modern Cadillac. One could infer or assume that one vehicle evolved into the next naturally and gradually, but this would be false. Everyone knows that each was distincly and originally designed, each by an intelligent person(s). Similarly, different kinds of animals, including apes and man, have been originally designed. All the fossils used in the human evolution series (which is based on false assumption, not observation) are more naturally and truthfully interpreted as being either ape (extinct or extant) or human (extinct or extant race) thus: Boxgrove Man - fully human, Neanderthal - fully human, Cro-Magnon - fully human, Homo habilis - invalid mixture of at least 4 different animals, Australopithecus (Lucy) - fully ape.

We certainly hope you never stop searching for answers to good questions, and never stop following the Truth.

Sincerely,


Brian Thomas MS Biotechnology


CEM Staff Writer
 
You can always find a study that supports your point of view, no matter what it may be. The fact is that the vast majority of legitimate scientists agree that evolution is indeed a fact that has been proven time and time again. It has been proven not ony in humans, but animals and plants as well. It is the adaptability of a creature to change with its environment. Absolute fact and not theory.
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Eric
 
>Well, at least evolution has actually
>been proven, scientifically, to be
>a fact, not a theory.


Your presumptions are false. No proof, just a hypothesis. Science is not the antithesis of religion.
 
Polarbear. Vast majority of Germans had strong beliefs too, did not mean they were right.
What will we do when the vast majority of Americans shut down hunting? Will that just be a inevitable result of social evolution?
 
The vast majority of hillbillies in this country believe in Jesus Christ and Bigfoot, does that make them right? Oh, and, as being of German descent myself, the vast majority of Krauts did not believe as Hitler did! (That's what you are getting at) They were fearful of their lives if they thought differently. Your argument is based on emotion instead of hard, solid, scientific data and does not hold water.

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Eric
 
Just another myth absolving blame, believe what you want about the Germans, recomend doing some critical reading on that assumption of yours though. Death would have been better than participating in that.
You are on the crux of the problem though. How do we come to a conclusion of right and wrong? morals and ethics? Are there any absolutes? or do you rely on the collective conscience of the masses?
 
How can you say that evolution is just a theory?? It has been obsevered, and documented. The Nene goose of Hawaii is a prime example. Orignally, it was a Canadian goose that was blown off its migration course and ened up on the islands. Over the centuries, it EVOLVED into a distinct separate species. When you look at this bird,you can still see its root of origin, but at the same time see it has become a totally separate animal.
Another example is the Mockingbirds of the Galopagos Islands. Same kind of thing happened, only on diffrent islands. And within the same island chains, the exact SAME bird has EVOLVED different characteristics to best suit it in that particuar environment on each of the diffrent islands.

One on final note to ponder, why did the people who desended from tropical climates EVOLVE with darker skin to better suit themselves to their surroundings?? HMMMMMM....
I don't know about you guys, but I don't know too many Black dudes whose family desent is from Sweden, or too many White dudes whose family tree comes out of the Ivory Coast!!!

Get real people, just look into the face of one of the Great Apes and you are looking into your genetic equal. Sorry to hunt your feelings and burst your bubble, but its the truth. Evolution is a fact.....
Scottyboy
 
Scottyboy, Probably could sell you the Brooklyn bridge too. It is still a goose,still a mockingbird, and still a human.
Your logic about the apes would have you tried for murder if you happened to shoot one. He may be your genetic equal, but I will pass.
 
When I look into the face of an ape, I see an ape. Evolution has way too many gaps in fossil history. For gods sake, it's called "the theory of evolution". Some of you may be an advanced ape, but I'm not.

JB
 
scottyboy' you just discribed ADAPTATION, dude, not evolution...

(Q) Why are the Elk along the Calif. coast smaller in body then their relative Rky Mt. Elk...(A) because they are in milder climate, where as the Rky Mt. elk have to have much more blood pumping thru their system to keep them warm in the gruling winter months....ADAPTATION....
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-05 AT 11:07AM (MST)[p]
Good one H.H.!
I thought that this was a hunting forum and not a platform for spewing religious and polital views (unless they pertain directly to hunting). Let's get back to what this site is supposed to be about, the great outdoors and all it has to offer!!!!!
Oh, by the way, evolution is adaptabiliy through genetic change. For example girraffes. They evolved into creatures with long necks due to competition with other critters for food sources. Same with horses and many other animals. It is an adapibility that resulted in a genetic change over many generations of a whole species and not just one individual. Those birds mentioned before have genetically evolved to a totally different species due to adaptability. Get it? Didn't think so.
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Eric
 
Thank you Polarbear. Good angle on this subject. I like your thoughts.
Everybody has their views of this and I mearly said mine. To all you wannabe theologists out there, I did'nt mean to get all your panties in a wad. Stop whining.

Oh yeah, Manny, I'm pretty sure that what I described was EVOLUTION. Those mockingbirds and finches were named after Darwin. I do recall him from my college studies as being the forefather of the study of EVOLUTION. He was'nt the forefather of ADAPTATION. HMMMMMM.... makes ya wonder who was paying attention in class that day.

Again, opinions are only ones particular outlook on a matter. I beleive mine and you can keep yours.

I think all this is hilarious cuz nobody is going to change one another's mind. No matter what. Man has been trying to do that to each other since the begining, (no matter how you think that begining came about).

And about the murder trial crapola, I'll send ya some pics from the time I spent in Africa. They may have not been the Great Apes, but some monkeys and baboons damned sure hit the dirt!And I never went to trial for no murder!!Hahahahah.....

And if I did buy the Brooklyn bridge, I'd put all the nay-sayers on it and sink that mutha!!!

Scottyboy
 
Polarbear, If evolution is fact?. When did it stop?. Show me one case of humans evolving from apes?? or anything else for that matter. Evolution vs God. If your wrong your doomed!!!. If I'm wrong, so what?.. Scottyboy, Evolution has NEVER been proven!!Adaptation has............
 
Evolution hasnt stopped! It takes many many years. In some cases, hundreds, thousands or even millions of years. Yes, it has been proven time and time again. What has not been proven is creationism. It has never been proven to be a fact. It is one of the most distorted and re-worked theories that has or will ever be. I only believe in hard, cold, scoentifically proven facts, creationism isnt one of them. As far as cases proving evolution, do some reasearch into the subject before you deem it to be false! I have. There are thousands of genetic studies proving evolution to to true. I just guess that you guys are just a hell of a lot smarter that those moron scientists that have devoted their lives to uncovering the myseries of our planet. Just read an old book that has been changed and re-interpreted so many times that any validity has gone out the window a long long time ago, and get all of the answers to life. Haahaaa... Not me!
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Eric
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-05 AT 12:34PM (MST)[p]The "theory" of evolution states that ALL life evolved from a single organism. Example, lightning stikes a mud puddle 10 trillion centuries ago and life, such as a one celled animal, was formed and it "evolved" into all life forms we see today.


It has NEVER been proven, no matter what the revisionist historians would like you to believe.






"Culture has moved beyond objective truth. Science has effectively declared itself god and scientists are its high priests. What scientists say science can achieve is all that matters. Anyone who refuses to bow down to their pronouncements is labeled a heretic and must suffer the kind of denunciation, ostracism and rejection once reserved for what the old horror movies called 'mad scientists." --Cal Thomas
 
Not smarter, just have more faith in the facts...It would have to take thousands of years because no one can prove it in their lifetime...Many, Many stories in the bible have been proven to have actually happened. Tolstoy was one who doubted Gods word and works and tried most of his life to perfect himself without God...Though he beleived in a God. He was a Russian poet who wrote war and peace and Anna Karenina. By the time of his death the only real conclusion he could come to after a lifetime of study is that God was real and existed and his words were true and real..This is not my interpretation, this is simply how it is...
 
Eric'

your no fun man, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder the size of a truck...well anyways dude I'm gonna pray for yah, let me know if you have any night dreams...God is a supernatural God not a natural human going around trying to prove he doesn't exist, it's the mans loss who doesn't believe in God...but how coastly will that loss be..?..
 
Dead horse, up and running! Alright folks, believe what you want, that is what makes this country great. I am not going to sway you, nor do I want to, and vice versa. Show me some actual physical proof and I will concider your theory. Otherwise it is pointless to keep on with the subject. You folks have fun and do not pray for me, there are so many that deserve your pitty, I am not one. Nuff said.
Oh, and I do have a chip on my shoulder, a cow chip! I just took a header while checking my cows! Haahaaaa...
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Eric
 
Eric, Do you have any children?? To see the miracle of child birth should be enough to prove someone had to have created it.. It didn't just happen because of a big explosion..I don't pretend to have all the answers but I do know God exists.. Take care bud...Just don't close your mind to the possibility...Great discussion..Thanks.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-05
>AT 12:34?PM (MST)
>
>The "theory" of evolution states that
>ALL life evolved from a
>single organism. Example, lightning stikes
>a mud puddle 10 trillion
>centuries ago and life, such
>as a one celled animal,
>was formed and it "evolved"
>into all life forms we
>see today.
>
>
>It has NEVER been proven, no
>matter what the revisionist historians
>would like you to believe.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Culture has moved beyond objective truth.
>Science has effectively declared itself
>god and scientists are its
>high priests. What scientists say
>science can achieve is all
>that matters. Anyone who refuses
>to bow down to their
>pronouncements is labeled a heretic
>and must suffer the kind
>of denunciation, ostracism and rejection
>once reserved for what the
>old horror movies called 'mad
>scientists." --Cal Thomas
>
>


Well put Man, I'm impressed , seriously...
 
Yes, I have 2 little girls. I do know how they were created. They were each created on a warm spring day by the union of myself and my wife. (Incert porno music here) :D Both of my kids were c-section and I was standing beside her watching the whole thing. It is a pretty awesome thing, but to me a true miracle is something that dosent happen several million times a day. I am not ruling out the idea of a "great creator", I just need more evidence. That's just the way I am. Kind of a weird view for one that is a pretty hardcore conservative Republican. Haahaaa...
Peace out!
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Eric
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-05 AT 10:58PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-05 AT 10:51?PM (MST)

I've always tried to stay out of this quagmire.
I respect those of you that are true believers.
I am not religious.
I am however very spiritual.
Mother nature is my lord.
The mountains and Salmon/Steelhead streams are my chapel.
I am not a sheep.
I have my own set of spiritual beliefs and that is my own business.
I am a conservative Republican, so I am on your side politically.
Religion is a deeply personal decision.
I don't slight believers or non believers.
To each his own.
In the end we will all see who is right.
HH
Call me a paganist.
I have worshipped moments like these.
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Hunter Harry,
I have a feeling we were both baptized in the same manner, falling into a river while fishing on Sunday.

For all of you who do not believe in evolution, pick up a science book. There may not be proof of humans evolving from apes, but there is plenty of evidence of other species evolving.

Rut
 
H.H

Good point, I respect your belief?s, also thanks for being human, but as for me I'd rather worship the CREATOR of all things, then The things GOD CREATED...Thus I enjoy his goodness, deer hunting, fishing, sunrises , sunsets Mt. streems, the company of my friends, ect;...
 
As someone already explained, that is not evolotion it is adaptation. Darwins work in the Galapagos islands was not about the origin of the planet, but how life had adapted to make the best of their their enviroment. No one disputes that.

Evolution is a totally different subject. Where did life ORIGINATE, not how did we get where we are today.

If you want me to believe that all of the millions of forms of life on this planet EVOLVED from single organism over trillions of years, you'll be better off trying to teach liberal to cut taxes.
 
I'm not going to take sides of who believes what, to each his own. However the definitions of both are as follows:

evolution:
change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, genetic drift, changes in biological environment.

adaptation:
any alteration in the structure or function of an organism or any of its parts that results from natural selection and by which the organism becomes better fitted to survive or multiply in its environment.

Seems like adaption and evolution are pretty much the same in meaning.
 

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