Just wondering how you all feel about only 50 percent of bonus tags going to max points, and any thoughts of changing it to an 80/20 split? I'm sure opions vary a lot on this but I think 80 percent going to max points is a great idea. Take the Book Cliffs rifle as an example - if one strictly goes off bonus tags, with the 50/50 split, it will take 28 years for every person who applied last year to draw a tag (again normal tags not figured in). If those same numbers are plugged into an 80/20 split it will only take 18 years. In the long run this would help both the low point and high point applicants. I like that everyone has a chance to draw, but I personally fell 50/50 is a little to much. This change would help with the point creep problem a ton. At the very least I think the 80/20 split should be instituted on Premium and Once In a life time draws. Any thoughts?
Thoughts on changing Utah's 50/50 bonus tag split
- Thread starter muley333
- Start date
Silentstalker
Long Time Member
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- 3,135
I personally don't like changing the rules after the game starts. Adding the 30% to the top guys does not change point creep much if at all IMO. There are still the same number of guys and the point creek will be pushed higher by the lower point holders.
Trouble is we don't have near enough tags to satisfy demand. Ever. I like it how it is. But that is just me.
Trouble is we don't have near enough tags to satisfy demand. Ever. I like it how it is. But that is just me.
Zim
Very Active Member
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I wonder how many folks in the 4 point pools realize the point creep that will result as they hit what are now the preference levels for these hunts. Will be a rude awakening.
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Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Dislike Club
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Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Dislike Club
I like the idea in a way but I don't, I like the idea of moving more people out of the max point faster and possibly slowing down point creep. But on the other hand I also like a little better draw odds of sitting without max points. Overall I think we have a decent system. One idea I have thought about is after the tags have been giving to the 50% of top point holders is to square the points of the applicants left, which will give the guys with say 10 points much better odds than the guys with just a few points.
wileywapati
Very Active Member
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- 1,808
Get rid of the entire bonus point system altogether.
All this system does is encourage entitlement.
"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
All this system does is encourage entitlement.
"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
J
JoshJ
Guest
I have thought about this alot as well. Personnally I like the idea. I have been on the better end of both sides. I do not think it is fair for someone with only a few points taking away a tag from someone who has been putting in for 15+ years. Just my opinion, and like I said I have been on the good end of both. 75% max points 25% random still gives everyone a chance at drawing, but rewards the people who have put the time in a little more.
PleaseDear
Long Time Member
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- 10,436
Get rid of the point code only would be a good start....ya have to apply for a tag to get a point like for Montana Sheep ect.
Other than that--leave it alone would be my vote.
Robb
Other than that--leave it alone would be my vote.
Robb
Zeke
Long Time Member
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- 10,604
>Get rid of the point code
>only would be a good
>start....ya have to apply for
>a tag to get a
>point like for Montana Sheep
>ect.
>
>Other than that--leave it alone would
>be my vote.
>
>Robb
+1
It's too easy for a guy to "play" in the application game when he can get a point for 10 bucks!
Other than that, don't change it.....even though 80/20 would benefit the top guys, the current system keeps more folks interested.
On a side note, it's funny how many units have odd numbers of tags which hurt the max guys (sheep, goat).
Zeke
>only would be a good
>start....ya have to apply for
>a tag to get a
>point like for Montana Sheep
>ect.
>
>Other than that--leave it alone would
>be my vote.
>
>Robb
+1
It's too easy for a guy to "play" in the application game when he can get a point for 10 bucks!
Other than that, don't change it.....even though 80/20 would benefit the top guys, the current system keeps more folks interested.
On a side note, it's funny how many units have odd numbers of tags which hurt the max guys (sheep, goat).
Zeke
Zeke
Long Time Member
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One more thing,
some of you guys keep forgetting that the demand has far out-stripped the supply. No system in the world will allow for everyone to have a permit for any given species......ever!
No system is fair or unfair! The only thing that's unfair is changing the system once people are vested.
Zeke
some of you guys keep forgetting that the demand has far out-stripped the supply. No system in the world will allow for everyone to have a permit for any given species......ever!
No system is fair or unfair! The only thing that's unfair is changing the system once people are vested.
Zeke
BrowningRage
Long Time Member
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I doubt the majority would go for it, because frankly, the majority are not in, and may never reach "Max Points"...
People like winning lotteries. For the chance to be the guy who draws a Paunsy Rifle tag with just 1 point, a person will trade away the greater draw odds for those with higher points...
I don't think the Points System is sustainable the way it is though. You're gonna start having guys putting in for some elk units with 20+ points here in a couple years. Those just starting out would not buy points or put in (if it wasn't for the lottery tags) as they will never hit Max Points levels in their lifetimes... All you elk hunters will be happy to know that I do not plan on entering the elk pool after I get my LE Deer Tag this year. I'll put in for antelope probably, but no way I'm going to try and win the elk lottery for the next 30 years.
I think they will have to change the system in the next 5 years or so. I think buying points should be done away with, put in for the tag or you don't get a point. Allow one year of grace, but two years without applying for the tag and you lose your points. I like it that way I think. It would eliminate some of the max point holders who just buy points forever, and then get in the tag pool when they reach max levels. You guys can do that because you can afford to hunt elsewhere during the interim (I'd guess). Besides, if you draw the tag when you don't really want it, you can still turn it back in here in Utah.
"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
People like winning lotteries. For the chance to be the guy who draws a Paunsy Rifle tag with just 1 point, a person will trade away the greater draw odds for those with higher points...
I don't think the Points System is sustainable the way it is though. You're gonna start having guys putting in for some elk units with 20+ points here in a couple years. Those just starting out would not buy points or put in (if it wasn't for the lottery tags) as they will never hit Max Points levels in their lifetimes... All you elk hunters will be happy to know that I do not plan on entering the elk pool after I get my LE Deer Tag this year. I'll put in for antelope probably, but no way I'm going to try and win the elk lottery for the next 30 years.
I think they will have to change the system in the next 5 years or so. I think buying points should be done away with, put in for the tag or you don't get a point. Allow one year of grace, but two years without applying for the tag and you lose your points. I like it that way I think. It would eliminate some of the max point holders who just buy points forever, and then get in the tag pool when they reach max levels. You guys can do that because you can afford to hunt elsewhere during the interim (I'd guess). Besides, if you draw the tag when you don't really want it, you can still turn it back in here in Utah.
"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
I am not sure what the best answer is. However, the other day I was thinking how unfortunate my boys are who are still a few years away from being eligible to start applying for LE hunts. The current system is a disadvantage to them and I do not believe that we hunters over the past 20 years had the right to cause this disadvantage for them- you always hear about the hunting/firearm legacy- bonus/preference points and point creep, etc are destabilizing this legacy IMO.
Zeke
Long Time Member
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- 10,604
Since when was a hunting lagacy based on a premium tag?
Lots of hunting can be done without a premium LE tag. Also, lots of LE tags can be had without waiting decades to draw.
Like I said, there will simply be tags which everyone cannot have because there's too much demand..period.
Zeke
Lots of hunting can be done without a premium LE tag. Also, lots of LE tags can be had without waiting decades to draw.
Like I said, there will simply be tags which everyone cannot have because there's too much demand..period.
Zeke
J
JoshJ
Guest
An 80-20 split or something similar would still allow for some people with few points to "get lucky" and draw. I believe the advantage needs to be to those who have put the time in. 100% to max point holders would not be fair to those who have already invested into the application, but how we are doing it now is not working. Utah is a feast or famine state. 10+ years for a great limited entry hunt or hunt the general season. Not much in between. Point creep is just going to continue to get out of hand and they will need to change the limited entry title to "once in a lifetime".
bowhunt
Long Time Member
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I would like to see Utah get rid of 2 Deer Point Systems and go to just 1.
I decided long ago that I would give my kids opportunity for hunting on General Season tags: Elk, Utah Deer, Idaho Deer, Wyoming Antelope...etc.
The LE tags are just a HUGE bonus, and may come around 1-3 times in each of their life times.
I decided long ago that I would give my kids opportunity for hunting on General Season tags: Elk, Utah Deer, Idaho Deer, Wyoming Antelope...etc.
The LE tags are just a HUGE bonus, and may come around 1-3 times in each of their life times.
sambo3006
Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-13 AT 11:22AM (MST)[p]>On a side note, it's funny
>how many units have odd
>numbers of tags which hurt
>the max guys (sheep, goat).
>
>
>Zeke
Yep. I'd be in favor of rounding up the max point tags instead of down when there are an odd number, especially when so many of the highly desired hunts seem to have three NR tags or maybe five. Example, three NR Desert sheep tags for the Kaiparowits unit (I don't know that, just throwing out some numbers). Currently it would round down to one tag for the max point holders and two bonus tags for everybody to have a shot at. I'm far from having max sheep points (9), but I wouldn't have a problem with the max point holders having a shot at two tags instead of one.
NRA Life Member
Leftys are the only ones in their right minds--and I ain't talkin' politics!
>how many units have odd
>numbers of tags which hurt
>the max guys (sheep, goat).
>
>
>Zeke
Yep. I'd be in favor of rounding up the max point tags instead of down when there are an odd number, especially when so many of the highly desired hunts seem to have three NR tags or maybe five. Example, three NR Desert sheep tags for the Kaiparowits unit (I don't know that, just throwing out some numbers). Currently it would round down to one tag for the max point holders and two bonus tags for everybody to have a shot at. I'm far from having max sheep points (9), but I wouldn't have a problem with the max point holders having a shot at two tags instead of one.
NRA Life Member
Leftys are the only ones in their right minds--and I ain't talkin' politics!
Paradox
Active Member
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75%/25% is my vote.
Requiring a person to apply for a tag to get points will do nothing to change the point situation, you just put in for Henrys as 1st choice, guaranteeing you don't get a tag and get the point.
Losing points for drawing any tag might help?
Ed
If you ain't the lead dog,
the view never changes
Requiring a person to apply for a tag to get points will do nothing to change the point situation, you just put in for Henrys as 1st choice, guaranteeing you don't get a tag and get the point.
Losing points for drawing any tag might help?
Ed
If you ain't the lead dog,
the view never changes
Zeke
Long Time Member
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- 10,604
>I would like to see Utah
>get rid of 2 Deer
>Point Systems and go to
>just 1.
>
>I decided long ago that I
>would give my kids opportunity
>for hunting on General Season
>tags: Elk, Utah Deer, Idaho
>Deer, Wyoming Antelope...etc.
>
>The LE tags are just a
>HUGE bonus, and may come
>around 1-3 times in each
>of their life times.
+1 Mike
A guys hunting can't be based around a LE permit or he'll seldom hunt!!!!!!!!
LE hunts are just RARE bonus hunts and they have ALWAYS been that way.
It took me well over 2 decades before I "drew" a tag in Utah. I'll bet I hunted a TON anyway! Yeah!
Zeke
>get rid of 2 Deer
>Point Systems and go to
>just 1.
>
>I decided long ago that I
>would give my kids opportunity
>for hunting on General Season
>tags: Elk, Utah Deer, Idaho
>Deer, Wyoming Antelope...etc.
>
>The LE tags are just a
>HUGE bonus, and may come
>around 1-3 times in each
>of their life times.
+1 Mike
A guys hunting can't be based around a LE permit or he'll seldom hunt!!!!!!!!
LE hunts are just RARE bonus hunts and they have ALWAYS been that way.
It took me well over 2 decades before I "drew" a tag in Utah. I'll bet I hunted a TON anyway! Yeah!
Zeke
ColoradoOak
Very Active Member
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>Like I said, there will simply
>be tags which everyone cannot
>have because there's too much
>demand..period.
That's why there should be NO point system, period. There will never be enough supply to meet demand, so why give preference to anyone?
The idea that changing the percentage of tags that goes to max point holders will somehow reduce "point creep" is funny. Reduce it for who? The guys near max points, yes, but what about the guys with 2 or 3 points? The only way to truly reduce point creep is to reduce the number of applicants or increase the number of tags available.
>be tags which everyone cannot
>have because there's too much
>demand..period.
That's why there should be NO point system, period. There will never be enough supply to meet demand, so why give preference to anyone?
The idea that changing the percentage of tags that goes to max point holders will somehow reduce "point creep" is funny. Reduce it for who? The guys near max points, yes, but what about the guys with 2 or 3 points? The only way to truly reduce point creep is to reduce the number of applicants or increase the number of tags available.
dragonshed
Member
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- 84
I am by no means an applicant process guru, but if you want to limit point creep you have to limit people to one choice per species a year. You get one choice a year, whether that be a limited entry application, a management tag application, or a general tag application. You have to make people choose one or the other. No points unless you apply and don't draw the tag! If you want to hunt a limited entry unit you just might have to give up hunting that species for a couple of years.
Should go to 0/100. Many units' odds are 1 in 60+ for non-top-tier point guys. That is more than a lifetime to wait, but guys with max points are assured to draw the tag. All the point system does is make it so new-comers are less than someone who applied before them. Is it fair that a guy with 18 moose points (waited 18 years) will draw a Wasatch moose permit, but a guy with 7 points faces odds of 1 in 400 forever? Why are we giving a person a sheep permit because they waited 19 years, while others will most likely wait their whole life and never draw the same permit? Give the tags on a completely random basis.
FishlakeElkHunter
Very Active Member
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>Should go to 0/100. Many
>units' odds are 1 in
>60+ for non-top-tier point guys.
> That is more than
>a lifetime to wait, but
>guys with max points are
>assured to draw the tag.
> All the point system
>does is make it so
>new-comers are less than someone
>who applied before them.
>Is it fair that a
>guy with 18 moose points
>(waited 18 years) will draw
>a Wasatch moose permit, but
>a guy with 7 points
>faces odds of 1 in
>400 forever? Why
>are we giving a person
>a sheep permit because they
>waited 19 years, while others
>will most likely wait their
>whole life and never draw
>the same permit? Give
>the tags on a completely
>random basis.
I agree with this.....NO POINTS....make it totally random....
>units' odds are 1 in
>60+ for non-top-tier point guys.
> That is more than
>a lifetime to wait, but
>guys with max points are
>assured to draw the tag.
> All the point system
>does is make it so
>new-comers are less than someone
>who applied before them.
>Is it fair that a
>guy with 18 moose points
>(waited 18 years) will draw
>a Wasatch moose permit, but
>a guy with 7 points
>faces odds of 1 in
>400 forever? Why
>are we giving a person
>a sheep permit because they
>waited 19 years, while others
>will most likely wait their
>whole life and never draw
>the same permit? Give
>the tags on a completely
>random basis.
I agree with this.....NO POINTS....make it totally random....
