Today's Tactics and Gadgetry

slamdunk

slamdunk

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10,396
I'd like to hear input from hunters in all states that follow MM on the usages of today's tactics, electronic or otherwise.

Baiting
Trail Cameras
Communication devices
Range extending devices to archery and muzzleloaders
Etc etc...

In Utah, "baiting" has really caught on and exploded. Not only with commercially produced attractant feed, but people hauling mountains of apple's, alfalfa, grains, enhanced salt blocks and anything else that can be used to hold game in an area "unnaturally".

Trail Cameras, especially the advanced models that send pics to cell phones.
I believe Nevada has made changes on these?

Communication devices such as two way radios used to help and assist multiple people to intercept, stalk and harvest big game. (This one is outlawed by record keeping clubs but still widely used).

Whitetail hunters have been using Gadgetry and baits for decades, but it has definitely found it's westward way.

With the declining amount of success on our public lands by the average hunters, do these "tricks" that are widely used by Outfitters really having an impact on that?

Thoughts and input?
 
Of those listed, baiting is the one I most would like to see regulated or eliminated. It is amazing how many pounds of crap is getting hauled into the mountains to bait elk and deer.
 
The end of the day, outfitters are businesses first. Businesses will always use things that make them faster, and more efficient.

The most expensive part of business is employees. A cam, some apples, and radios are a lot cheaper than guys.

Of course they are "too successful". And of course that's because of gadgets and tech. They wouldn't use them if they didn't work.

And ya, all of they things you mentioned are very hard on the resource, whether from the pros or amateurs.

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>The end of the day, outfitters
>are businesses first. Businesses
>will always use things that
>make them faster, and more
>efficient.
>
>The most expensive part of business
>is employees. A cam,
>some apples, and radios are
>a lot cheaper than guys.
>
>
>Of course they are "too successful".
> And of course that's
>because of gadgets and tech.
>They wouldn't use them if
>they didn't work.
>
>And ya, all of they things
>you mentioned are very hard
>on the resource, whether from
>the pros or amateurs.
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.


Perfectly said Hoss!
 
>Of those listed, baiting is the
>one I most would like
>to see regulated or eliminated.
> It is amazing how
>many pounds of crap is
>getting hauled into the mountains
>to bait elk and deer.
>

A horseman is required to have certified weed free hay in order to take his animals into the mountains, yet we can haul all the alfalfa, grains, apples, etc etc into mountains for chum to hold wildlife unnaturally in an area that we want.
Makes a lot of sense!?
 
Baiting and trail cams aren't any more of an issue than 1300 yards guns people are taking to the hills with little to no time behind them to really learn a gun before using it.

Only issue I'm seeing is baiting and trail cams are creating a sense of entitlement or ownership of certain areas and animals. Last week I had a guy call me all kinds of pissed off that I hunted HIS spot that HIS trail cam was on that was over HIS salt lick and I shot one of HIS elk. How dare I put my own camera on HIS spot 10 years ago and hunt it as well. It's all forest service land and the elk are owned by the people of Utah. He expressed his feeling on how I have invaded HIS space of public land. He obviously feels that no one has the right to also utilize that land or resources, only him. That's the issue I have with cameras and bait. If you can understand public land is PUBLIC LAND, and accept that others might and probably will also hunt that same area, then I don't see a problem.

With that said, if anyone is looking for a great cow and spike area next year to hunt, I've decided to give this guy all the company he could possibly want! Send me a PM and I'll send you gps coordinates to this exact location. It's a great spot and it's close to the road.




@screaminseagull
 
I know 2 guys who have been using FLIR to hunt deer in Utah. After they explained it to me my question was if they felt dirty stalking bucks found that way.
I would like to see that be a banned method of locating game, even though it would be nearly impossible to enforce.
 
>I know 2 guys who have
>been using FLIR to hunt
>deer in Utah. After they
>explained it to me my
>question was if they felt
>dirty stalking bucks found that
>way.
>I would like to see that
>be a banned method of
>locating game, even though it
>would be nearly impossible to
>enforce.


Spotlighting is enforced, these night vision instruments should fall under that category.
 
Longer ago than I care to admit, I took my first buck with a barrowed open sighted 32 Special. The buck was about 250 yards away and I think I had to hold over his back to get that little gun to reach him. I was proud as punch at taking an animal with a shot like that.

Today that same hunting scenario would be a chip shot with any "primitive weapon" muzzleloader.

The whole landscape of hunting has changed dramatically, and not for the better IMHO. It seems it has become a game of "who's got the latest, baddest gadget or tactic.

I really do miss hunting!

Of course innovations and gadgets impact the quantity and quality of game available for us to pursue.
 
Big Side X Sides Straight Piped with 20K worth of Extras!

Shredding Mother Earth like there's No Tomorrow!

The Pilot has a Size 5 F'N FLATTY!














I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Get rid of game cameras in use after August 1st, baiting, drones, and flir.

Those that promote the monetization/commercialization of wildlife are selfishly destroying the essence of hunting, as well as the resource, for financial gain.

Notice how guys that shoot deer over bait never include the bait pile in the pic? Even the people that bait aren't proud of it so let's get rid of it.

Ethics aren't enough for people as they hide under the claim that "it's legal so it's okay." Oh, really? Then pile some apples around the buck for the kill photo and I'll believe you.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
I am proud to bait.

My baits are clean. I haul apples to the mountains.

I love baiting. I love watching animals and seeing them come in close to my water holes or my baits.

I don't cause any damage with my baits. And for those of you who've never baited, but judge it, please give me a call. Send me a pm and I'll give you my phone number. You?re free to come tag along and have a great time.

Where I pack bait into, nobody else will or does. It's too hard to pack 50 lbs of apples into a place. I have baited a lot of animals. For those critics, have you? What is the success rate for bait?

Be careful boys about wanting to ban something for the next guy. I'd stand side by side with all my hunting brothers to defend their method, even if I don't hunt that way or even if I don't like it.

I strictly bowhunt. I realize there are a lot of elitists out there in the archery world that despise rifle hunting.

But while we are branding baiting unfair, let's not stop there. Rifle hunting is unfair in the eyes of an awful lot of people. We really need to stop trying to pass laws against the other guys, because one day, it WILL be you.
 
>I am proud to bait.
>
>My baits are clean. I haul
>apples to the mountains.
>
>I love baiting. I love watching
>animals and seeing them come
>in close to my water
>holes or my baits.
>
>I don't cause any damage with
>my baits. And for those
>of you who've never baited,
>but judge it, please give
>me a call. Send me
>a pm and I'll give
>you my phone number. You?re
>free to come tag along
>and have a great time.
>
>
>Where I pack bait into, nobody
>else will or does. It's
>too hard to pack 50
>lbs of apples into a
>place. I have baited a
>lot of animals. For those
>critics, have you? What is
>the success rate for bait?
>
>
>Be careful boys about wanting to
>ban something for the next
>guy. I'd stand side by
>side with all my hunting
>brothers to defend their method,
>even if I don't hunt
>that way or even if
>I don't like it.
>
>I strictly bowhunt. I realize there
>are a lot of elitists
>out there in the archery
>world that despise rifle hunting.
>
>
>But while we are branding baiting
>unfair, let's not stop there.
>Rifle hunting is unfair in
>the eyes of an awful
>lot of people. We really
>need to stop trying to
>pass laws against the other
>guys, because one day, it
>WILL be you.

I respect your view and input, but are your apples "seedless"?
Just asking a fair question.
 
"...I respect your view and input, but are your apples "seedless"?
Just asking a fair question. "


You're worried about volunteer apple trees Slam???

What hunter hasn't packed an apple or 2 in their pack and chucked the core on the ground after eating it? Lots to worry about in this thread, but apple trees as an invasive species is a stretch....




497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 
>"...I respect your view and input,
>but are your apples "seedless"?
>
>Just asking a fair question. "
>
>
>
>You're worried about volunteer apple trees
>Slam???
>
>What hunter hasn't packed an apple
>or 2 in their pack
>and chucked the core on
>the ground after eating it?
>Lots to worry about in
>this thread, but apple trees
>as an invasive species is
>a stretch....
>

Perhaps you're right, but an "an apple or 2" compared to piles of hundreds of them scattered throughout the state is a bit different.
I have pictures of very large piles of apples with big bucks feeding on them in broad daylight.

And baiting in just one of the pieces to the puzzle of public land issue's piling up (no pun intended).
 
UDWR's official position on supplemental feeding is that it is typically not a good idea as it increases the transmission of disease, improper food supplies can actually kill deer, it attracts predators, and other negative attributes. (source: https://wildlife.utah.gov/md-feeding.html). It appears to me that baiting would have many of the same negative consequences.

The fact that UDWR allows baiting for big game animals validates to me the heavy presence of outfitters in wildlife decisions in Utah (hence all the auction tags!). It is a proven highly-effective way of killing animals, especially in arid regions of the state. An outfitters primary objective is to punch tags, thus I understand their support of it. That just happens to not be my primary objective as I value the hunt more than just a punched tag.

I know guys that so heavily bait in their deer that the bucks become junkies and will often visit multiple times per day; to the point it appears the bait pile becomes the primary source of food for that animal. It may be hard work to keep a stocked bait pile, I'm certain it is, but that doesn't mean its "sporting" as I view the definition.

I understand some people are pro-baiting and have as much right as I have to be anti-baiting. Its a personal choice, but I don't bait in deer for the same reason I don't hide behind the fence at the cemetery waiting for a buck to cross out of city limits so I can stick an arrow in it. I'd rather get a 2-point on a stalk than a 4-point over an apple pile. Its just not my idea of hunting and "Fair Chase" but to each their own, I guess. That's the beauty of opinions and ethics, we all get our own.

__________________________________________

To advance the discussion on "tactics" here is one from a while ago that still rubs me wrong. Did anything ever come of this?

https://www.ksl.com/article/84064/video-raises-ethical-questions-about-hunting

https://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-...w_thread&om=7992&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes
 
>Get rid of game cameras in
>use after August 1st, baiting,
>drones, and flir.
>
>Those that promote the monetization/commercialization of
>wildlife are selfishly destroying the
>essence of hunting, as well
>as the resource, for financial
>gain.
>
>Notice how guys that shoot deer
>over bait never include the
>bait pile in the pic?
>Even the people that bait
>aren't proud of it so
>let's get rid of it.
>
>
>Ethics aren't enough for people as
>they hide under the claim
>that "it's legal so it's
>okay." Oh, really? Then pile
>some apples around the buck
>for the kill photo and
>I'll believe you.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>
>Ask yourself if you agree with
>the following statement...
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>
I'll have to dig through my photos to find it, but I have a photo of a Texas whitetail I shot with my bow a few years ago laying in a pile of corn, right under the feeder. It's how the majority of Texas hunts big game. No shame, it's a fun way to hunt and see lots of wild life. I didn't try to hide it. Many guys don't hide it. What's your point? Don?t agree with it? Fine. But I'm sure if your hunting methods were examined, there would be something someone doesn't agree with, I'm sure. Don?t hated on guys who don't hunt the same way you do, it doesn't mean they are wrong. They just have a different way of hunting

@screaminseagull
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-19 AT 01:45PM (MST)[p]There was a time guys used to look at Texas and laugh at them.

It seems as though things have changed. Utah has become the laughing stock of the West. Baiting, 500 auction tags. Thermal imaging. Special interests controlling WB.


The reality is simple. 100% success rates mean hunting is over.

Unregulated business will simply continue to push the boundaries.

Whats a few thousand dollars for thermal if you get $175k to guide an elk.

What's a few hundred in apples if you fetch $25k to shoot deer.

What's a little bad PR for poaching sheep if your client drops 6 figures year after year with you.

Thermal freaking imaging. Why not just GPS tag fawns and sell locations to highest bidders. We have the expo, we have folks who will spend the money. We have the buisnesses(outfitters) who will cash the checks. We have the WB loaded with a special interest group who represents the money men.

Let's just get on with it.

THERMAL IMAGING. Good gawd!!

And yes I'm judging your ethics. But more importantly I'm judging your character.

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>>Get rid of game cameras in
>>use after August 1st, baiting,
>>drones, and flir.
>>
>>Those that promote the monetization/commercialization of
>>wildlife are selfishly destroying the
>>essence of hunting, as well
>>as the resource, for financial
>>gain.
>>
>>Notice how guys that shoot deer
>>over bait never include the
>>bait pile in the pic?
>>Even the people that bait
>>aren't proud of it so
>>let's get rid of it.
>>
>>
>>Ethics aren't enough for people as
>>they hide under the claim
>>that "it's legal so it's
>>okay." Oh, really? Then pile
>>some apples around the buck
>>for the kill photo and
>>I'll believe you.
>>
>>Grizzly
>>
>>-----------------------------------------
>>
>>Ask yourself if you agree with
>>the following statement...
>>
>>"It's time to revisit the widely
>>accepted principle in the United
>>States and Canada that game
>>is a public resource."
>>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>>
>I'll have to dig through my
>photos to find it, but
>I have a photo of
>a Texas whitetail I shot
>with my bow a few
>years ago laying in a
>pile of corn, right under
>the feeder. It's how the
>majority of Texas hunts big
>game. No shame, it's a
>fun way to hunt and
>see lots of wild life.
>I didn't try to hide
>it. Many guys don't hide
>it. What's your point? Don?t
>agree with it? Fine. But
>I'm sure if your hunting
>methods were examined, there would
>be something someone doesn't agree
>with, I'm sure. Don?t hated
>on guys who don't hunt
>the same way you do,
>it doesn't mean they are
>wrong. They just have a
>different way of hunting
>
>@screaminseagull



A different way of killing.


The definition of hunting is to PURSUE game for food or sport. Sitting in the AC, in the high rise, launching Pavlovian deer, doesn't touch PURSUIT.




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Trapping for fur was just made illegal in California. Have fun banning other things for others guys.

It's a ridiculous notion that your way is better. Send me that Pm grizzly. Let's go up together.

I despise it when somebody wants to outlaw something for somebody else and then declares themselves freedom
Lovers. You guys are totally entitled to your opinions. So are anti hunters. I even respect anti hunters. Where I lose respect is when they begin their pursuit to legislate against somebody else.

Like I said....it?ll be you next. It always continues to roll downhill.

I hope some can begin to understand this.

And slammy, I totally respect your opinion. But with all due respect, am I understanding that you feel apples would be an invasive species the same way that weeds can be?

So ban baiting? Cattlemen can still take their weed free hay up into the mountains. Some are
Advocating that I can't bait at all. So ban one because another group has to abide by a different set of rules?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-19
>AT 01:45?PM (MST)
>
>There was a time guys used
>to look at Texas and
>laugh at them.
>
>It seems as though things have
>changed. Utah has become
>the laughing stock of the
>West. Baiting, 500 auction
>tags. Thermal imaging.
>Special interests controlling WB.
>
>
>The reality is simple. 100% success
>rates mean hunting is over.
>
>
>Unregulated business will simply continue to
>push the boundaries.
>
>Whats a few thousand dollars for
>thermal if you get $175k
>to guide an elk.
>
>What's a few hundred in apples
>if you fetch $25k to
>shoot deer.
>
>What's a little bad PR for
>poaching sheep if your client
>drops 6 figures year after
>year with you.
>
>Thermal freaking imaging. Why not
>just GPS tag fawns and
>sell locations to highest bidders.
> We have the expo,
>we have folks who will
>spend the money. We
>have the buisnesses(outfitters) who will
>cash the checks. We
>have the WB loaded with
>a special interest group who
>represents the money men.
>
>Let's just get on with it.
>
>
>THERMAL IMAGING. Good gawd!!
>
We don't always agree, but this is spot on.
 
>Get rid of game cameras in
>use after August 1st, baiting,
>drones, and flir.
>
>Those that promote the monetization/commercialization of
>wildlife are selfishly destroying the
>essence of hunting, as well
>as the resource, for financial
>gain.
>
>Notice how guys that shoot deer
>over bait never include the
>bait pile in the pic?
>Even the people that bait
>aren't proud of it so
>let's get rid of it.
>
>
>Ethics aren't enough for people as
>they hide under the claim
>that "it's legal so it's
>okay." Oh, really? Then pile
>some apples around the buck
>for the kill photo and
>I'll believe you.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>
>Ask yourself if you agree with
>the following statement...
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>


You remember the cluster that was tge spider bull. And the outright circus that ensued when they lost him after sleeping on him all summer. The sums of money being offered to anyone who found him.

That's why we won't get a sensible cam law like that.

The guides wouldn't be able to physically keep track of the "hit list".

Once an elk goes hard horned he moves. Without cams the pros either hire more guys( can I imagine how many guys Carter and Mossback would need to replace the hundreds of cams they use), or they might have lower success rates. All of which are bad for the bottom line.

None of which mean Jack to the resource.

Not hard to figure why that won't EVER pass


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-19
>>AT 01:45?PM (MST)
>>
>>There was a time guys used
>>to look at Texas and
>>laugh at them.
>>
>>It seems as though things have
>>changed. Utah has become
>>the laughing stock of the
>>West. Baiting, 500 auction
>>tags. Thermal imaging.
>>Special interests controlling WB.
>>
>>
>>The reality is simple. 100% success
>>rates mean hunting is over.
>>
>>
>>Unregulated business will simply continue to
>>push the boundaries.
>>
>>Whats a few thousand dollars for
>>thermal if you get $175k
>>to guide an elk.
>>
>>What's a few hundred in apples
>>if you fetch $25k to
>>shoot deer.
>>
>>What's a little bad PR for
>>poaching sheep if your client
>>drops 6 figures year after
>>year with you.
>>
>>Thermal freaking imaging. Why not
>>just GPS tag fawns and
>>sell locations to highest bidders.
>> We have the expo,
>>we have folks who will
>>spend the money. We
>>have the buisnesses(outfitters) who will
>>cash the checks. We
>>have the WB loaded with
>>a special interest group who
>>represents the money men.
>>
>>Let's just get on with it.
>>
>>
>>THERMAL IMAGING. Good gawd!!
>>
>We don't always agree, but this
>is spot on.

I thought I knew what was going on. I actually had to look it up.



From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
"It always continues to roll downhill."


It's so far down the other side of the hill no one can see it.

To the point that a guy packing 50lbs of apples into the mountains looks like a traditionalist.

I agree. I don't like legislation.

But we as a society have long since passed the time when shame meant something.

I'm still stuck on THERMAL IMAGING.

Unreal.

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
I would very much like to see restrictions on many of these Technologies. I like the idea of having to take down trail cams around the 1st of August. I like the idea of outlawing bait. I like the idea of getting rid of Smart scopes. I would like to see a law that makes it illegal to use thermal imaging if there's any hunt going on at all. I think they outlawed the use of drones correct? That was a good move in my opinion.
 
I don't get the slippery slope argument. Without legislation we wouldn't even have seasons and guys would shoot animals year round, there would be no ban on spotlighting, there would be guys shooting from helicopters/ultralights, etc...

We have to pass legislation to protect the sport and the resource! The debate is where that line should be, not whether there should be legislation at all.

Relying on ethics of sportsmen is far too open-ended to depend upon. Go click on the KSL link posted above. Baiting is merely one aspect of the discussion on tactics.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
So now baiting ranks up there with spot lighting and shooting from a helicopter?

Grizzly, the fact of the matter is that you want to outlaw something you don't like and that you quite frankly don't understand. Do you rifle hunt? I don't. Let's outlaw it. Shooting at 200 yards is too damn easy. I think it's unethical as hell. Using a high powered rifle to shoot an animal from that distance is not right.

There are people who truly believe that any use a weapon is unethical and we should take them down with our bare hands.

The slippery slope argument is simple. And you don't want to open your eyes around you and see that tactics, ones you like, and ones you won't like, are all being chiseled away.

And if you think for one second that your Method is safe because you think it's moral, and righteous, and a challenge, and the way men do it, and the way that people,
Voters and non voters alike would approve of, then you're a close minded individual.

You?re not as smart as you think you are.

Your thinking is a shallow as a lot of people
Before you.

I can afford to hunt expensive property every year. Public land should be banned because my hunting will
Improve. Hunter numbers should be limited because my hunting will improve. Hunters abilities to enjoy the outdoors how they see fit should be limited because my hunting will
Improve.

The greatest challenge to hunting??

Hunters. Simple as that. It's called cannibalism.

It's become human nature to want to take something away from somebody. You?re wanting to take my rights way and I'm wanting to help you fight to keep yours.

How American of you grizzly.
 
How many of our biggest game entered into B&C books have escaped the rules set forth by the Boone and Crockett Club under these articles?

III Use of electronic communication devices (2-way radios, cell phones, etc.) to guide hunters to game, artificial lighting, electronic light intensifying devices (night vision optics), sights with built-in electronic range-finding capabilities (including smart scopes), drones/unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), thermal imaging equipment, electronic game calls or cameras/timers/motion tracking devices that transmit images and other information to the hunter;

Technological advancement in hunting equipment is a natural progression of our desire to be successful and affective in ethically harvesting game.? At some point, these technologies can displace a hunter?s skills to the point of taking unfair advantage of the game.? Below are some examples (which are not intended to be an exhaustive list):

●? The Club believes that having another person on the other end of a two-way radio or cell phone to help locate or guide a hunter to game is not fair chase.

●? Big game animals cannot be legally hunted at night in any state or province.? Using any technology or device that allows hunters to see in the dark in order to harvest an animal is both illegal and unsportsmanlike.

? ●? Knowing the range to a target is a critical piece of information for the ethical harvest of big game animals.? Rangefinders are a valuable tool, as are riflescopes.? However, combining the two into one device, commonly called smart scopes, disqualifies a trophy from being accepted.

• Using drones to take pictures or video, or transmitting this information live whether scouting or during a hunt takes unfair advantage over a game animal and other hunters.

●? It can be argued that thermal imaging equipment is helpful in recovering wounded or lost game.? The Club has determined using thermal imaging equipment to initially locate game for hunting, however, is not fair chase.

● Trail cameras can be a helpful tool in game management and selective hunting. The use of devices that transmit captured or live images or video from the field back to the hunter crosses the line of fair chase.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-19 AT 04:51PM (MST)[p]https://www.stitcher.com/s?eid=63466816&refid=asa


Dang good listening, Newberg and Boone and Crocket on Ethics.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
I agree with that
A horseman is required to have certified weed free hay in order to take his animals into the mountains, yet we can haul all the alfalfa, grains, apples, etc etc into mountains for chum to hold wildlife unnaturally in an area that we want.

So In NM you can legally bait but all remnants of said bait need to be completely vacant of the premises 10 days prior to the start of the hunt (would this help) not to mention the certified hay and grain.


Hunt Hard
Live Free
RIP
 
ok SO there is an single apple tree growing if the forest where I live it's been there for years, don't know if someone planted it or what but its so high up it doesn't bare fruit every year and when it does, you would think that every bear elk and deer would demolish it but NO it just doesn't happen
as for salt, ranchers put out salt all year long but I don't see every critter waiting in the bushes for them to get there
TO LICK IT UP either (same with molasses tubs)
YES HUNTING EVOLVING IN WAYS WE MAY NOT LIKE BUT YOU AS A SPORTSMAN HAVE A SAY (BUT DON'T SAY TO MUCH YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS) LETS SEE JUST HOW FAR THIS SH^T GOES.


HOW DEEP KNEE DEEP HAAHHEAAHEHHEHAAA

Hunt Hard
Live Free
RIP
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-19 AT 06:56PM (MST)[p]Dconcrete, your first sentence was that I equivocated helicopters and baiting, which I never did; I stated that laws are required to prevent unethical behavior. Your post doesn't get any better from there and is so sophomoric it doesn't warrant response, it's entirely based on non-mutually exclusive false dichotomies.

So I'll leave you with this... 28 states do not allow baiting of big game, including many western states, and 8 more limit the practice. There are entire websites that break the states down for you, but you'll see this isn't some liberal attack on hunting as many of the most conservative states don't allow baiting. Feel free to read up on it if you're so inclined.

And if I get a vote on whether baiting should be legal; I'll unapologetically vote for the protection of wildlife and the sport of hunting, not your apple pile and antler supplements.

I accept the fact that you shoot deer over bait, you're going to have to accept the fact that I don't support it.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
When You Guys get all these Laws Changed/Approved!

I Wanna see the Enforcement!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
> When You Guys get
>all these Laws Changed/Approved!
>
>I Wanna see the Enforcement!


Totally AGREED!!! We need at least twice as many wardens.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
Typical response because you don't have one grizzly. I once had a proud non baiter such as yourself use EHD -: a reason to ban baiting. He lives in Indiana. Loves that nobody can bait there. It's a bit sad that Indiana is in the midst of a pretty large EHD outbreak.

You think you're protecting wildlife by banning baiting?

Get rid of rifle seasons if you want to save more animals. Stop hunting with a rifle.

And to be frank, I only say this about rifles because, it isn't how I feel, but it shows your weak argument. You want to talk ethics? Shooting an animal at a bait Vs. 200 plus yards with a rifle.

It's laughable at best that you think you're saving wildlife yet you rifle hunt. Give me a break. One day you'll get to see that nobody who's against hunting gives 2 craps about how self righteous you think your method is. It's all the same to them.

I'd like to reiterate one thing. I stand with all of you guys on all of the methods you use to get your game. I am a supporter of you, not a destructive force.

Rifle, muzzle loader, archery, spear, bait, water, lures, calls, tree stands, ground blinds. I support you all. Stop with your pedestal that you stand on because you don't grizzly. All you are is the tallest midget in the room, in your mind?s eye.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-19 AT 08:31PM (MST)[p]
>I'd like to reiterate one thing.
>I stand with all of
>you guys on all of
>the methods you use to
>get your game. I am
>a supporter of you, not
>a destructive force.
>

Pretty loose standards there and all under the banner of fear of anti-hunters. I am not for "all" methods to take game; for instance, I don't support poisoning of big game... though I'm sure some people would consider it okay. I believe in taking game in their natural environment, not in an artificially created theater.

You keep trying to equivocate rifle hunting with baiting. This is a horrible argument when I doubt a single state bans all rifle hunting but the majority ban all baiting of big game. Pick something of similar acceptability and we can talk about it, but it's terribly weak to relate it to something that is nearly universally accepted in the hunting community. Even B&C had to issue a special statement regarding baiting, which basically left it to the states, but the fact it was necessary to issue the statement shows the unease of hunters on the issue of baiting.

I am a supporter of Fair Chase in the vein that I was taught by those I look up to, which I do not believe baiting is. My beliefs in baiting appear to align with states like Idaho that don't consider it Fair Chase. Your personal attacks towards me (which I have not reciprocated) and your defensive attitude about baiting belie your inferiority complex regarding the issue.

Good luck this year on your hunts.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
The comparison to other states is one I'll never understand. It's like when people compare the United States to Europe or Canada.

I like being different.

No inferior feelings here. I'll just stand up for my rights. I won't lay down, face down, ass up because of people
Like you.
 
We are all in the same boat. Just be nice if some would quit poking holes in it. -Rinella



Not all approaches are equal.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>Not to sound to naive but
>I did not realize any
>western states allowed baiting except
>for bears.

I think Wyoming just changed their baiting ban to allow it in certain situations on private land to lure whitetails from the cities to be shot/culled. I don't know if any other Western States allow baiting of big game other than Utah. Some states go so far as to say it's illegal to hunt over bait, even if somebody else baited the area but you should've been aware of it.

I believe these efforts are in the interest of protecting Fair Chase hunting and not an attempted foot in the door by anti-hunters.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
I am trying to wrap my head around this Thermal Imagine. Is it not illegal to shoot big game animals in Utah from a half hour after sunset to a half hour before sunrise. Would someone explain why this is being discussed as if it is legal.
I am sorry but the baiting for deer and elk is not nearly as successful as most claim at least not on public land.
How is baiting with apple's or some other natural food source different than seeting over water sources or a prime native food plot. Is that ok just because it is native.
Just playing devil advocate.
I personally do believe technology has and will have a negative affect on quality of hunting and on the overall outdoor experience.
My problem with saying one form of technology or another should be illegal is, who says it is worse to use radios to help another hunting bud get in close to a buck or a bull for a good shot but it is ok too snipe a buck or bull at 700 yards by using all the new technology in the advancements in glass.
I will admit I have used radios while hunting with family and friends and probably will use them in the future.
Just my thoughts.
 
Notdon, thermal isn't only for nighttime

6145hqdefault.jpg


You can even get them for drones (which last time I checked was still legal in Utah).

Yes, the difference in baiting and natural food plot is the fact that one is natural and the other artificial. Pretty easy place to draw the line.

I agree with your concern on long range shooting. It is a hard one to enforce, but I don't like the shift towards that. It used to be a source of pride to get close to animals, now people see how far they can shoot which seems counterintuitive.

I'm not as concerned about radios as many people are. I don't have them, but that doesn't seem to be a major detriment to me.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
Grizz I had not even thunk that about the Thermal Imagine use during the day.
I do agree with you native and not native that is why I worded it like I did. My understatement from some of the posts on the baiting is it was about the unfair advantage of taking an animal that has let its instincts down for the sake of desires(Food).
 
>Man Bess, you got me laughing
>out loud on that one!
>:D
>
>"Size 5 F'N FLATTY!"..........LOL!


Howdy BloodTracker!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
> My understatement from
>some of the posts
>on the baiting is it
>was about the unfair advantage
>of taking an animal that
>has let its instincts down
>for the sake of desires(Food).
>

So, does that also apply to using cow or doe-in-heat urine? or calling with artificial plastic reeds? or using plastic decoys? or wearing synthetic camo material? or using cover scents? or hiding in steel tree stands or polyester blinds? or hunting over concrete/fiberglass guzzlers? or wearing soft soled boots? or using glass magnifying binoculars?

We go to great lengths to try to fool a deer or elk's other senses and take pride in our ability to do so, but trying to fool their sense of taste is off limits, unfair, unethical? How so?
 
>
>We go to great lengths to
>try to fool a deer
>or elk's other senses and
>take pride in our ability
>to do so, but trying
>to fool their sense of
>taste is off limits, unfair,
>unethical? How so?

You're not fooling them, they know they're eating apples.

You're creating an artificial situation in a heartless and tough natural world where quality food can be scarce and the threat of starvation or malnutrition or dehydration is real. You're preying on this innate fear with a contrived food supply of carefully selected products they crave in an attempt to entrap them into a false narrative they would not be in without your undue influence. You've entrapped them into a location they would not be under their own volition.

Therefore, it's not Fair Chase as I choose to believe it.

But as I've said above, that's the nice thing about ethics. We all get our own.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
>>
>>We go to great lengths to
>>try to fool a deer
>>or elk's other senses and
>>take pride in our ability
>>to do so, but trying
>>to fool their sense of
>>taste is off limits, unfair,
>>unethical? How so?
>
>You're not fooling them, they know
>they're eating apples.
>
>You're creating an artificial situation in
>a heartless and tough natural
>world where quality food can
>be scarce and the threat
>of starvation or malnutrition or
>dehydration is real. You're preying
>on this innate fear with
>a contrived food supply of
>carefully selected products they crave
>in an attempt to entrap
>them into a false narrative
>they would not be in
>without your undue influence. You've
>entrapped them into a location
>they would not be under
>their own volition.

This is an absolutely perfectly said description of the act of baiting with non native substances.

No, we're not sitting under a tree munching an apple for a snack and tossing it aside when finished and just leaving a small core, we are allowed by law to haul in a dump truck of apples if we'd like to.
As stated by grizz, this IS a pretty heartless act of forcing an animal to change his natural habits to rely on humans to feed them something they simply cannot resist.

This may be stretching my point a bit but it's still factual that ungulates digestive system is programmed to consume certain species of natural forage throughout their specific region.
And I am not talking about the urban deer that feed daily in local orchards that have regulated their systems to do so.

There are legitimate reasons why the DNR urges people to not feed wintering game in an attempt to "help" them. It congregates them, teaches them to rely on humans, disrupts natural digestion and it most definitely is a form of "entrapment" because they simply cannot resist the easy bountiful meals.

I remember back in the 80's when I was an avid bowhunter, we would set up ground blinds wherever we found a salt block set out for cattle and sheep by ranchers and herders.
No we didn't pick them up and move them to a more favorable location for our personal hunting success, we left them right where we found them and worked with them.
We as hunters took advantage of those blocks as a "natural" tool for a possible ambush point because it was already there.
I am sure this is what started the whole baiting thing.

Now days we can take a pickup load of apples to multiple locations all over an area.
Set up trail camera's that send text pics to our phone's while we are at home or in an office.
We can watch those baiting locations with FLIR in non legal shooting light to observe possible targets. We can harvest our quarry with archery equipment riddled with electronics, muzzleloaders as efficient as a 30-30 and long range weapons fully capable of hitting targets a mile away.
GPS devices with pinpoint accuracy of areas once overlooked due to it's restricted access or remote locations.
We have a giant and explosive social media competition to harvest the biggest and highest amount of trophy game to further personal popularity and financial gains, and all in a time where there are vast amounts of tags offered to both public and auction, with the latter widely employed by Outfitters whom are extremely effective at what they do.

This is who we have become, this is who we are, and this is Utah hunting as we know it.

I was hoping to draw more input from surrounding states from this post which is why I posted it in the general versus the Utah page.

I do know one thing as fact....other hunters from states surrounding Utah, cringe with anger and frustration when they are seeing more and more Utah plates on their hunting grounds because they know how we have tainted our own state so badly that we seek refuge all around us.
 
Welcome to TARDville!

The Number of MasturBaiters in this State are beyond Belief!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-19 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-19 AT 10:34?AM (MST)

Well, Grizz, how do like how this baiting case is going so far? Are you now ready to hear from the defense or have we already reached a verdict?
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-19 AT 10:49AM (MST)[p]>Well, Grizz, how do like how
>this baiting case is going
>so far? Are you now
> ready to hear from
>the defense or have we
>already reached a verdict?

Do you really think this is about winning a case? :)

Or have you figured it's just a discussion among people with different views?

_________________

You feel free to haul all the apples you want, I'll practice my own version of hunting. I do find it interesting the people who are so dependent upon baiting don't acknowledge there are entire states who outlaw it completely, yet still fill their tags every year.

Some people are all worked up defending something that isn't even allowed a few miles away, as if they'll never hunt again.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
Excerpt from B&C on baiting...

"The Club defines Fair Chase as ?the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals.? This definition is based on the meaning of ?fair? that relates to legitimate, genuine, or appropriate given the circumstances. Where an increased harvest of a particular species needs to occur, or where positive identification of size or sex is a legal requirement, baiting is ?appropriate given the circumstances? and does not violate Fair Chase principles."?

To me, this is the difference in baiting big game as opposed to Black Bear, where gender identification and age class is much more difficult to ascertain from afar. There are areas where baiting bears is the primary source of population control via hunting. It's going to be pretty tough to argue there is an overabundance of deer in areas where they're dumping apples. It's going to harder to argue that getting a bigger deer is a "legal requirement" in those areas.
 
Hey Dconcrete!

I Guess the Question We Must Ask is:

How many of your B&C & P&Y Entries do You Need To Contact them about?:D

(((RAZZIN Ya Bud!:D:D:D)))








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
> Hey Dconcrete!
>
>I Guess the Question We Must
>Ask is:
>
>How many of your B&C &
>P&Y Entries do You Need
>To Contact them about?:D
>
>(((RAZZIN Ya Bud!:D:D:D)))

To be clear, B&C allows baited animals if it's legal in that state. The fact that they found it necessary to even issue that perspective on baiting is the part I find interesting. Obviously there is concern about it from their members.
 
Crazy how many posts on this forum and others these days are from people who want to change everything in the state they are hunting in an effort to mold it into how they think hunting should be, according to their own beliefs. How about you just go hunting, if you want to do it one way and it's legal, great! Have at it! If you don't want to do it a certain way because you don't agree with it, don't do it!

Baiting and cams and all that other ##### people do these days still takes a lot of effort to be successful. It's funny to see some of the people wanting more restrictions are the ones who are rarely successful, and usually don't hunt more than a day or so and like to stay close to their road. Guess they believe restricting successful guys even more will increase the odds that they will whack a 200? every year from their SxS

@screaminseagull
 
No deerkiller, you are way off on the subject.

I've put more trophy big game on the ground in 20 years than most will even lay there eyes on in an entire lifetime.
And guess what....I've never used a single trail camera or even dropped an apple on the ground.
I know first hand how "real game management" works.

The whole point of this post is about public land success rates and numbers of game have plummeted throughout the state of Utah.

If you'd pay attention, this post is about comparisons with surrounding state's and what and why the differences in regulations.

This post is for people's constructive opinions and from people who actually have cares and concerns, unlike those who just spout off saying "STFU and hunt like I do".
 
The number of game animals has dropped because of management tactics and plans used by our wildlife agencies because the hunters of Utah have cried for more opportunities. They got it, this is the result. Now we are mad that there aren't enough animals. Utah doesn't have near the amount of space or habitat that the other western states do. With that being a fact, you can't compare the amount of animals other states have, to what Utah has. You are comparing apples to oranges. I bet if Utah start limiting tag number again by a significant amount to increase your ?trophies?, you'll have the same guys crying about how they can't draw a tag to go hunting.



@screaminseagull
 
>It's funny to see some
>of the people wanting more
>restrictions are the ones who
>are rarely successful, and usually
>don't hunt more than a
>day or so and like
>to stay close to their
>road. Guess they believe restricting
>successful guys even more will
>increase the odds that they
>will whack a 200? every
>year from their SxS


You may want to look into some of the animals I've posted here before writing that gibberish. You can disagree with me all you want, I really don't care at all, but to say I am "rarely successful" and "stay close to the road" is ridiculous. You should try and stay on subject instead of attempting to knock others down in an attempt to bolster yourself up. Its hard to take any of your point-of-view seriously when you say something that is so provably wrong.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-19 AT 02:57PM (MST)[p]>The number of game animals has
>dropped because of management tactics
>and plans used by our
>wildlife agencies because the hunters
>of Utah have cried for
>more opportunities. They got it,
>this is the result. Now
>we are mad that there
>aren't enough animals. Utah doesn't
>have near the amount of
>space or habitat that the
>other western states do. With
>that being a fact, you
>can't compare the amount of
>animals other states have, to
>what Utah has. You are
>comparing apples to oranges. I
>bet if Utah start limiting
>tag number again by a
>significant amount to increase your
>?trophies?, you'll have the same
>guys crying about how they
>can't draw a tag to
>go hunting.
>
Who said anything about land mass as a comparison?

You've only made one correct statement, and that is about people crying for opportunity.

Having said that, it is all the Gadgetry Utah allows, coupled with high percentages of available public land tags, countless lottery and auction permits that we issue that are the problem in comparison to states surrounding us.

Riddle me this deerkiller?
If land mass is so much better in surrounding states (as it really is) why are they so much more limited on tags and far more restrictive with gadgets, tactics and advanced weaponry used if they have so many more animals?
Seems to me like they'd be more apt to imply Utah's unlimited regulations and let people eradicate their deer herds with all that vast endless real estate ?
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-19 AT 03:42PM (MST)[p]I sent to a few emails to RAC members trying to find out how FLIR should even warrant discussion.


Deerkiller

Your right about guys wanting to change hunting to fit their ideals. Your wrong about who that is. If you hunt an area where big deer don't naturally gather, and you haul in bait which causes them to, YOU CHANGED hunting.

If you hunt deer that are normally in super thick vegetation and you use Thermal, YOU CHANGED hunting.

If you hunt places where close stalking is impossible so you pull out the LR, YOU CHANGED hunting.

If you normally can't be on the mtn scouting so you drop cams, especially live feed YOU CHANGED hunting.

I have YET to see a pic from outfitters, or guys I know use bait, or cams, or planes, choppers, scouting services, post pics of their deer/elk in front of said devices.
I don't see Mossbacks clients sitting on a pile of apples, or Carter's folks sitting next to crates of cams. Don't see guys with their scouting reports held up proudly, or standing next to the plane.

I wonder why?

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-19
>AT 03:42?PM (MST)
>
>I sent to a few emails
>to RAC members trying to
>find out how FLIR should
>even warrant discussion.
>
>
>Deerkiller
>
>Your right about guys wanting to
>change hunting to fit their
>ideals. Your wrong about
>who that is. If
>you hunt an area where
>big deer don't naturally gather,
>and you haul in bait
>which causes them to, YOU
>CHANGED hunting.
>
>If you hunt deer that are
>normally in super thick vegetation
>and you use Thermal, YOU
>CHANGED hunting.
>
>If you hunt places where close
>stalking is impossible so you
>pull out the LR, YOU
>CHANGED hunting.
>
>If you normally can't be on
>the mtn scouting so you
>drop cams, especially live feed
>YOU CHANGED hunting.
>
>I have YET to see a
>pic from outfitters, or guys
>I know use bait, or
>cams, or planes, choppers, scouting
>services, post pics of their
>deer/elk in front of said
>devices.
>I don't see Mossbacks clients sitting
>on a pile of apples,
>or Carter's folks sitting next
>to crates of cams.
>Don't see guys with their
>scouting reports held up proudly,
>or standing next to the
>plane.
>
>I wonder why?
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.


Hey Hoss?

Your Memory Getting Weak?

You Don't remember any Deer/Buck Pics on rare occasion Posted on this Site Where Somebody Picked out an Apple/Apples?

There's been a couple!






I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-19
>AT 03:42?PM (MST)
>
>I sent to a few emails
>to RAC members trying to
>find out how FLIR should
>even warrant discussion.
>
>
>Deerkiller
>
>Your right about guys wanting to
>change hunting to fit their
>ideals. Your wrong about
>who that is. If
>you hunt an area where
>big deer don't naturally gather,
>and you haul in bait
>which causes them to, YOU
>CHANGED hunting.
>
>If you hunt deer that are
>normally in super thick vegetation
>and you use Thermal, YOU
>CHANGED hunting.
>
>If you hunt places where close
>stalking is impossible so you
>pull out the LR, YOU
>CHANGED hunting.
>
>If you normally can't be on
>the mtn scouting so you
>drop cams, especially live feed
>YOU CHANGED hunting.
>
>I have YET to see a
>pic from outfitters, or guys
>I know use bait, or
>cams, or planes, choppers, scouting
>services, post pics of their
>deer/elk in front of said
>devices.
>I don't see Mossbacks clients sitting
>on a pile of apples,
>or Carter's folks sitting next
>to crates of cams.
>Don't see guys with their
>scouting reports held up proudly,
>or standing next to the
>plane.
>
>I wonder why?
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.

Hahahahahahahaha this post is so ridiculous, especially the last paragraph. Wow! ???
@screaminseagull
 
Do not like baiting because is upsets the NATURAL patterns of the game. The draw to archery hunting for me is patterning them off their natural habits. I always hunted early in the season in the Midwest and did well until the baiters came out an changed the patterns with their corn and cameras. Now it's the same here. I've had a couple cameras out a couple times over the last few years but don't get into it.

Wish Instagram and YouTube would burn to the ground to help taper this behavioral pattern.


All this crap is why I enjoy hunting Idaho.
 
YZF gets it!
He saw it ruin another state and it's found it's way here now.

$25k for a big public ground muley, a guy needs every edge he can get to cash a check.

"Pro's" have been using that tactic for years, but the GP has caught on.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-19 AT 05:47PM (MST)[p]This post is really getting melodramatic. Come on baiting, cameras and other gadgets have not caused the demise of deer in the state of Utah. Yes tech gadgets have helped many people be successful on trophy class animals but comparing the amount of deer in the state to other surrounding states that's a little bit of a strech. I will guarantee that long range snipping has affected quality of deer and elk more than anoy other form of high tech gadgets. Now I am not saying anything about being against long range snipping I do not know were I stand because I like to snipe at long range or at least the thought of it. but let's be honest most on this site does not say a thing about that because most do it including myself.
Deer numbers suffer in this state and the surrounding states because of the brutal drought we have went through for the better part of 20 plus years and elk have been affected in some of the more arid parts of the state but have been a little better off in the area's that have more moisture.
Again just my 2 cents
 
Truth is, we love our animals too death. Is there a month we aren't pressuring them? February, maybe?


But get real. I live at the entrance to AI. It's tiny. And the areas with deer, even tinier. There's more cams out there than hollywood.

I listened to Ryan Carter. 125 cams. Mossback I betting would scare you to death with his number. Planes. Choppers. Camping on animals. Finders fees. Of course that hurts numbers.

Again. We know guts bait, cam, fly, thermal, Scout service. I see pics with dudes showing off their gun or bow with the animal. Often the knife or pack. The bait pile did more work than the gun. Why not show it off proudly? Why not a trophy shot in front of your pile of cams? A grip and grin in front of the plane? How about a "tagged out" pic next to a scouting report?

I hear guys say, " it's legal", or there's nothing wrong with it. Yet they keep it for.

Actions always speak louder than words.

I agree long range is an issue. But we can start with low hanging fruit, like baits, or year round cams, while we figure a way to deal with LR.

Other states have. And I don't see them lacking for hunters.

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-19 AT 09:03PM (MST)[p]>I'm headed thursday for Cali A
>zone hunt......here is my gear....
>
>
>
184575fbac64cefc543ce9d1e56361895d85c.jpeg

>
>
>
497fc2397b939f19.jpg


That Knife Blade better be Obsidian!:D









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>
>
>

??? That guy was an Instagram hunter before there even was such a thing! That's some crazy good hunting there!
 
You can buy broadheads now that are coated with Golden Delicious apple scent. A 5 yard shot is about average.
 
>I'm headed thursday for Cali A
>zone hunt......here is my gear....
>
>
>
184575fbac64cefc543ce9d1e56361895d85c.jpeg

>
>
>
497fc2397b939f19.jpg


You think I can "low Ball ya" on that lever action?
 
One can buy a mountain that may or may not be land locked, clear cut it, and then put in your food plots , auto-feeders, cell cameras and such and use your tree stands to hunt elk ....
 
>One can buy a mountain that
>may or may not be
>land locked, clear cut it,
>and then put in your
>food plots , auto-feeders, cell
>cameras and such and use
>your tree stands to hunt
>elk ....

Yep, and it changes nothing for you or i on our public land.
 
>One can buy a mountain that
>may or may not be
>land locked, clear cut it,
>and then put in your
>food plots , auto-feeders, cell
>cameras and such and use
>your tree stands to hunt
>elewhile.k ....

My kids will try to tell me what their sibling or friend did that was worse when they get in a jam.

Same answer here.

If Johnny jumps off a cliff does that mean you should?







From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-19 AT 02:26PM (MST)[p]This thread is so full of hypocrisy, false information, insinuations, false assumptions, emotionally charged attempts at persuasion, social bullying, social baiting, exaggerations, poorly hidden insults, ignorance, childish excuses, divisiveness and outright lies that it's even beyond MM's low standards for "discussions".

My only hope is that enough RAC & Wildlife Board members see this and make their decisions when these items come up at the meetings based on biology and not all of this social theater popcorn crap. Otherwise, the herds will continue to decline in quantity and quality. And hunters will be further divided!
 
JFP David Petersen has multiplied! If you don't think its a slippery slope look at California or Colorado. Quit trying to limit other hunters from your high horse! For the record I'm not a fan of those long range rigs but I'm not going to petition to get them banned because I don't think shooting a deer at 1200 yards is hunting. Thats for them to justify in their own minds.



"Not sure I grasp BHA motivation".
Hossblur 7/25/19

#livelikezac
 
>hey hoss, if Jack helps you
>on a horse will you
>help Jack off a horse?
>



Don't knock it till I try it

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>>hey hoss, if Jack helps you
>>on a horse will you
>>help Jack off a horse?
>>
>
>
>
>Don't knock it till I try
>it
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.

Lmao ?
 
>JFP David Petersen has multiplied! If
>you don't think its a
>slippery slope look at California
>or Colorado. Quit trying to
>limit other hunters from your
>high horse! For the record
>I'm not a fan of
>those long range rigs but
>I'm not going to petition
>to get them banned because
>I don't think shooting a
>deer at 1200 yards is
>hunting. Thats for them to
>justify in their own minds.
>
You mean nobody's ever taken a "Hail Mary" shot with a 270 or a 30-06 even 30 years ago?

I would bet a Franklin or two that more game has been poorly hit and lost with guys flinging lead with standard calibers at ranges well beyond capabilities of both weapon and or the person sending it than today's weaponry.
And no, I am NOT condoning "long range hunting".
 
>JFP David Petersen has multiplied! If
>you don't think its a
>slippery slope look at California
>or Colorado. Quit trying to
>limit other hunters from your
>high horse! For the record
>I'm not a fan of
>those long range rigs but
>I'm not going to petition
>to get them banned because
>I don't think shooting a
>deer at 1200 yards is
>hunting. Thats for them to
>justify in their own minds.
>
>
>
>
>"Not sure I grasp BHA motivation".
>
>Hossblur 7/25/19
>
>#livelikezac


Ya? How exactly are you gonna explain to the non hunting public that you need thermal imaging scopes to shoot a deer? I have yet to hear anyone explain it to me. And I get using it for hogs.




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
DW, I doubt anybody on MM has been on more of a crusade the last few years than you. You've been so fixated on a company and conservation organization that your posts have become nothing but an obsessive broken record. I can't even think of a thread you were involved in that you didn't try and direct back to the boogeyman under your bed. (Including this one, we're 87 posts in and you tried to direct back to that group!!!) You're so possessed by it that when somebody eventually decided to leave the group you hated (though not for the reason you wish), you made their mea culpa into your signature. CLASSLESS! Watching you attacking others for stating their beliefs as being on a "high horse" is absolutely laughable!!!

So I ask you... Where do you personally draw the line on hunting ethics? Or do you think there is not a line to be drawn?

Is being against spotlighting a "high-horse"? What about shooting an elk stuck in an icy pond? Party hunting a single animal? Poisoning a bait pile with cyanide? Running down deer on a snowmobile in deep snow? Failing to track wounded game so you can shoot another? Setting up temporary fencing around alfalfa fields the night before a hunt to trap confused deer? Are all of these okay with you?

Or are you so afraid of "anti-hunters" that you promote any conceivable way to kill an animal because to speak in favor of Fair Chase is a "slippery slope" like you believe happened in Colorado (by the way, probably the best state in the country for overall hunting).

PS. There is nothing wrong with people speaking for/against wildlife management and hunting ethics they feel promote the growth of the sport.

Unless, of course, you are here trying to silence those you disagree with!
 
>>JFP David Petersen has multiplied! If
>>you don't think its a
>>slippery slope look at California
>>or Colorado. Quit trying to
>>limit other hunters from your
>>high horse! For the record
>>I'm not a fan of
>>those long range rigs but
>>I'm not going to petition
>>to get them banned because
>>I don't think shooting a
>>deer at 1200 yards is
>>hunting. Thats for them to
>>justify in their own minds.
>>
>You mean nobody's ever taken a
>"Hail Mary" shot with a
>270 or a 30-06 even
>30 years ago?
>
>I would bet a Franklin or
>two that more game has
>been poorly hit and lost
>with guys flinging lead with
>standard calibers at ranges well
>beyond capabilities of both weapon
>and or the person sending
>it than today's weaponry.
>And no, I am NOT condoning
>"long range hunting".

Never even brought wounding loss into the conversation. And I'm not condoning it either, but more importantly, I'm not actively trying to get it band because I personally don't agree with it. Whether its right/wrong ethical or unethical is for them to come to terms with. Not for me to impose my personal beliefs on them.


"Not sure I grasp BHA motivation".
Hossblur 7/25/19

#livelikezac
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-19 AT 09:47PM (MST)[p]>DW, I doubt anybody on MM
>has been on more of
>a crusade the last few
>years than you. You've been
>so fixated on a company
>and conservation organization that your
>posts have become nothing but
>an obsessive broken record. I
>can't even think of a
>thread you were involved in
>that you didn't try and
>direct back to the boogeyman
>under your bed. (Including this
>one, we're 87 posts in
>and you tried to direct
>back to that group!!!) You're
>so possessed by it that
>when somebody eventually decided to
>leave the group you hated
>(though not for the reason
>you wish), you made their
>mea culpa into your signature.
>CLASSLESS! Watching you attacking others
>for stating their beliefs as
>being on a "high horse"
>is absolutely laughable!!!
>
>So I ask you... Where do
>you personally draw the line
>on hunting ethics? Or do
>you think there is not
>a line to be drawn?
>
>
>Is being against spotlighting a "high-horse"?
>What about shooting an elk
>stuck in an icy pond?
>Party hunting a single animal?
>Poisoning a bait pile with
>cyanide? Running down deer on
>a snowmobile in deep snow?
>Failing to track wounded game
>so you can shoot another?
>Setting up temporary fencing around
>alfalfa fields the night before
>a hunt to trap confused
>deer? Are all of these
>okay with you?
>
>Or are you so afraid of
>"anti-hunters" that you promote any
>conceivable way to kill an
>animal because to speak in
>favor of Fair Chase is
>a "slippery slope" like you
>believe happened in Colorado (by
>the way, probably the best
>state in the country for
>overall hunting).
>
>PS. There is nothing wrong with
>people speaking for/against wildlife management
>and hunting ethics they feel
>promote the growth of the
>sport.
>
>Unless, of course, you are here
>trying to silence those you
>disagree with!

Most of the things you mention are illegal. The others are things that were drilled into us at a young age. What my comment was directed at were legal activities that other "hunters" actively work to ban, but you can produce all the false arguments you want. Look at the sequence of events in California and Colorado and tell me it isn't a slippery slope. We have to back each other even if its an activity we don't partake in. We are a small percentage of the population and dividing us further only plays into their hands and weakens us further. Hoss reached his own conclusion based on his own research, I have no mind control over Hoss.
Seems I'm livin rent free in your head though.


P.S. I dont think my "crusade" is a patch to the one I've watched on here the past few years led by you hoss and a few others. Which played a big part in why I started in on BHA. God damned irritating ain't it?




#livelikezac
 
>>You mean nobody's ever taken a
>>"Hail Mary" shot with a
>>270 or a 30-06 even
>>30 years ago?
>>
>>I would bet a Franklin or
>>two that more game has
>>been poorly hit and lost
>>with guys flinging lead with
>>standard calibers at ranges well
>>beyond capabilities of both weapon
>>and or the person sending
>>it than today's weaponry.
>>And no, I am NOT condoning
>>"long range hunting".
>
>Never even brought wounding loss into
>the conversation. And I'm not
>condoning it either, but more
>importantly, I'm not actively trying
>to get it band because
>I personally don't agree with
>it. Whether its right/wrong ethical
>or unethical is for them
>to come to terms with.
>Not for me to impose
>my personal beliefs on them.

So DW, back to the topic of this post.....

You are from Colorado and I asked for input from your state and others about your regulations versus ethics.

If I'm not mistaking, Colorado has some tight muzzleloader restrictions in comparison?
How about archery equipment?
Baiting?
FLIR?
Trailcams to cell phones?
 
>Most of the things you mention
>are illegal. The others are
>things that were drilled into
>us at a young age.
>What my comment was directed
>at were legal activities that
>other "hunters" actively work to
>ban, but you can produce
>all the false arguments you
>want. Look at the sequence
>of events in California and
>Colorado and tell me it
>isn't a slippery slope. We
>have to back each other
>even if its an activity
>we don't partake in. We
>are a small percentage of
>the population and dividing us
>further only plays into their
>hands and weakens us further.
>Hoss reached his own conclusion
>based on his own research,
>I have no mind control
>over Hoss.
>Seems I'm livin rent free in
>your head though.
>
>
>P.S. I dont think my "crusade"
>is a patch to the
>one I've watched on here
>the past few years led
>by you hoss and a
>few others. Which played a
>big part in why I
>started in on BHA. God
>damned irritating ain't it?
>

I believe you are missing the point somewhat.

The "slippery slope" issues lie on our own heads as hunters to a degree.

Standing behind people with very little ethics that will "shoot a bull elk stranded in an icy pond" is what is adding hurt to what we all as hunters enjoy.

If you are telling me that I have to just shut up and let guys chum in big game on public land with truck loads of apples or scouring black thick timber with FLIR or at home on a couch getting live feed text and video on their cell phones, then we just aren't going to be exchanging Christmas cards anymore.

You don't have the issues in Colorado that Utah has because your state was smart enough to squash it before it even happened.
Now we've got to seriously consider taking cookies away from the fat kids here in Utah, all while you curse all the "Ski Utah" plates you are increasingly encountering in your favorite honey holes.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-19 AT 10:56PM (MST)[p]^^^DW, as to the scenarios I proposed, some of them aren't necessarily illegal (snow machines in deep snow, elk in pond, etc...). Did you click on the KSL link I posted above about the temporary fencing? Was he ever charged?

If ethics are dependent upon legality, then is it ethical in Utah, but unethical in Colorado or Idaho, to bait big game? Do the deer know the difference when they cross the border? If a state bans hunting with hounds, does it then make it wrong? Or is it possible that right and wrong sometimes may not exactly track with the law?

If FLIR isn't yet made illegal, does that therefore make it ethical and okay? Or is it okay for hunters to work to protect the sport and wildlife by saying it should be outlawed?

If you make an argument that hound hunting is ethical, even if a state outlaws it... then you must open the door to the idea that baiting is unethical even if a state allows it. You can't have it both ways.

Hunters are a largely self-policing group of people and have every right to discuss how they would like the sport represented and their wildlife managed.

Simply because something isn't illegal doesn't make it right!
 
>
>>Most of the things you mention
>>are illegal. The others are
>>things that were drilled into
>>us at a young age.
>>What my comment was directed
>>at were legal activities that
>>other "hunters" actively work to
>>ban, but you can produce
>>all the false arguments you
>>want. Look at the sequence
>>of events in California and
>>Colorado and tell me it
>>isn't a slippery slope. We
>>have to back each other
>>even if its an activity
>>we don't partake in. We
>>are a small percentage of
>>the population and dividing us
>>further only plays into their
>>hands and weakens us further.
>>Hoss reached his own conclusion
>>based on his own research,
>>I have no mind control
>>over Hoss.
>>Seems I'm livin rent free in
>>your head though.
>>
>>
>>P.S. I dont think my "crusade"
>>is a patch to the
>>one I've watched on here
>>the past few years led
>>by you hoss and a
>>few others. Which played a
>>big part in why I
>>started in on BHA. God
>>damned irritating ain't it?
>>
>
>I believe you are missing the
>point somewhat.

Could be slam, it wouldn't be the first time.


>The "slippery slope" issues lie on
>our own heads as hunters
>to a degree.
>
>Standing behind people with very little
>ethics that will "shoot a
>bull elk stranded in an
>icy pond" is what is
>adding hurt to what we
>all as hunters enjoy.

Agree. These are the things we had driven into us at a young age i mentioned above. We don't have to be told its unethical, we can recognize it when we see it.


>If you are telling me that
>I have to just shut
>up and let guys chum
>in big game on public
>land with truck loads of
>apples or scouring black thick
>timber with FLIR or at
>home on a couch getting
>live feed text and video
>on their cell phones, then
>we just aren't going to
>be exchanging Christmas cards anymore.
>
>You don't have the issues in
>Colorado that Utah has because
>your state was smart enough
>to squash it before it
>even happened.

As grizz knows, we can no longer bait bears or run them with hounds here. Now our bear population has exploded! we have weekly school lock downs because a bear was spotted nearby. Not in the mtn towns, along the I-25 corridor! All because a "hunter" thought those methods were unethical. He pushed for an initiative to end those practices and got it on the ballot and passed. Now he complains of the lack of elk in the southwest where he hunts and says it's because bowhunters put too much pressure on breeding elk. He has no idea his elk calves are being gobbled up by the burgeoning bear population he created! Baiting elk and deer isn't my bag either. But when they eliminate baiting you can bet bears will either be included or soon to follow. That is part of the slippery slope. Next fall Colorado will vote to introduce wolves, there will be many hunters that will vote for it because they think its a romantic notion. So I wouldn't envy our foresight too much. We're phugked! Technology in hunting needs to be reigned in, where we draw the line would be different for each of us. As I said above I'm not a fan of the long range craze, be it rifle or bow. But I'm not going to actively work to get them banned because I think its an unethical way to hunt. They will all contribute to fewer opportunities for all of us in the end.



>Now we've got to seriously consider
>taking cookies away from the
>fat kids here in Utah,
>all while you curse all
>the "Ski Utah" plates you
>are increasingly encountering in your
>favorite honey holes.

luckily they aren't in my honey holes yet.

Hopefully this gets me back on the Christmas card list??

#livelikezac
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-09-19
>AT 10:56?PM (MST)
>
>^^^DW, as to the scenarios I
>proposed, some of them aren't
>necessarily illegal (snow machines in
>deep snow, elk in pond,
>etc...). Did you click on
>the KSL link I posted
>above about the temporary fencing?
>Was he ever charged?
>
>If ethics are dependent upon legality,
>then is it ethical in
>Utah, but unethical in Colorado
>or Idaho, to bait big
>game? Do the deer know
>the difference when they cross
>the border? If a state
>bans hunting with hounds, does
>it then make it wrong?
>Or is it possible that
>right and wrong sometimes may
>not exactly track with the
>law?
>
>If FLIR isn't yet made illegal,
>does that therefore make it
>ethical and okay? Or is
>it okay for hunters to
>work to protect the sport
>and wildlife by saying it
>should be outlawed?
>
>If you make an argument that
>hound hunting is ethical, even
>if a state outlaws it...
>then you must open the
>door to the idea that
>baiting is unethical even if
>a state allows it. You
>can't have it both ways.

What? You just described the slippery slope.

>
>Hunters are a largely self-policing group
>of people and have every
>right to discuss how they
>would like the sport represented
>and their wildlife managed.
>Simply because something isn't illegal doesn't
>make it right!

My point is, pushing to ban legal methods because you think its unethical has a negative effect that emboldens others to outlaw other methods, the slippery slope you deny exists, maybe a method or activity you use and enjoy. I doubt flir has even come up in conversation with your wildlife department. Nip it in the bud. I agree it's unethical. It's not a common practice that has been in use for decades.


#livelikezac
 
>
>>>You mean nobody's ever taken a
>>>"Hail Mary" shot with a
>>>270 or a 30-06 even
>>>30 years ago?
>>>
>>>I would bet a Franklin or
>>>two that more game has
>>>been poorly hit and lost
>>>with guys flinging lead with
>>>standard calibers at ranges well
>>>beyond capabilities of both weapon
>>>and or the person sending
>>>it than today's weaponry.
>>>And no, I am NOT condoning
>>>"long range hunting".
>>
>>Never even brought wounding loss into
>>the conversation. And I'm not
>>condoning it either, but more
>>importantly, I'm not actively trying
>>to get it band because
>>I personally don't agree with
>>it. Whether its right/wrong ethical
>>or unethical is for them
>>to come to terms with.
>>Not for me to impose
>>my personal beliefs on them.
>
>So DW, back to the topic
>of this post.....
>
>You are from Colorado and I
>asked for input from your
>state and others about your
>regulations versus ethics.
>
>If I'm not mistaking, Colorado has
>some tight muzzleloader restrictions in
>comparison?

Yes, its still a relatively primitive hunt. No scopes, sabbots, powder pellets.

>How about archery equipment?

No crossguns

>Baiting?

Hell we can't bait bears and we've got a helluva problem on our hands. CP&W will probably kill 300 this year because of it. The original reason I chimed in on your post.


>FLIR?

I'd have to look. The technology is relatively new and not sure if its even a topic of conversation yet.


>Trailcams to cell phones?

No rules on it to my knowledge. I don't use cameras cause I read how many are stolen or damaged in Utah!?


#livelikezac
 
Human nature is my way is the only way. Just the way it is. This subject can be best wrapped up with you can satisfy some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.

For the record, I will be going out soon to fool the deer with my Walnut and steel. The deer think I'm just a casual granola cruncher on a stroll with a Fe pole strapped to a walnut stick. What they don't know is I very well may intend to kill them with this invasive, instrument of death that is certainly not naturally occurring.

Most of time they are safe. I've had plenty of opportunity in life and passing the chance onto another sportsman I generally find more appealing. That and I'm not all that good at finding the big one. One of my best memories was my dad taking short barrel Winchester trapper with iron sites into the field and whacking a modest 3 pt with it in the noggin while it was stotting off at near 300 yards.

I've never used much more sophisticated than a .243 win with a 3X9. Never got into "primitive" weapons and never cared to. At the way things are going I may realize I've been hunting with a 'primitive' weapon all along.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
>>
>>>Most of the things you mention
>>>are illegal. The others are
>>>things that were drilled into
>>>us at a young age.
>>>What my comment was directed
>>>at were legal activities that
>>>other "hunters" actively work to
>>>ban, but you can produce
>>>all the false arguments you
>>>want. Look at the sequence
>>>of events in California and
>>>Colorado and tell me it
>>>isn't a slippery slope. We
>>>have to back each other
>>>even if its an activity
>>>we don't partake in. We
>>>are a small percentage of
>>>the population and dividing us
>>>further only plays into their
>>>hands and weakens us further.
>>>Hoss reached his own conclusion
>>>based on his own research,
>>>I have no mind control
>>>over Hoss.
>>>Seems I'm livin rent free in
>>>your head though.
>>>
>>>
>>>P.S. I dont think my "crusade"
>>>is a patch to the
>>>one I've watched on here
>>>the past few years led
>>>by you hoss and a
>>>few others. Which played a
>>>big part in why I
>>>started in on BHA. God
>>>damned irritating ain't it?
>>>
>>
>>I believe you are missing the
>>point somewhat.
>
>Could be slam, it wouldn't be
>the first time.
>
>
>>The "slippery slope" issues lie on
>>our own heads as hunters
>>to a degree.
>>
>>Standing behind people with very little
>>ethics that will "shoot a
>>bull elk stranded in an
>>icy pond" is what is
>>adding hurt to what we
>>all as hunters enjoy.
>
>Agree. These are the things we
>had driven into us at
>a young age i mentioned
>above. We don't have to
>be told its unethical, we
>can recognize it when we
>see it.
>
>
>>If you are telling me that
>>I have to just shut
>>up and let guys chum
>>in big game on public
>>land with truck loads of
>>apples or scouring black thick
>>timber with FLIR or at
>>home on a couch getting
>>live feed text and video
>>on their cell phones, then
>>we just aren't going to
>>be exchanging Christmas cards anymore.
>>
>>You don't have the issues in
>>Colorado that Utah has because
>>your state was smart enough
>>to squash it before it
>>even happened.
>
>As grizz knows, we can no
>longer bait bears or run
>them with hounds here. Now
>our bear population has exploded!
>we have weekly school lock
>downs because a bear was
>spotted nearby. Not in the
>mtn towns, along the I-25
>corridor! All because a "hunter"
>thought those methods were unethical.
>He pushed for an initiative
>to end those practices and
>got it on the ballot
>and passed. Now he complains
>of the lack of elk
>in the southwest where he
>hunts and says it's because
>bowhunters put too much pressure
>on breeding elk. He has
>no idea his elk calves
>are being gobbled up by
>the burgeoning bear population he
>created! Baiting elk and deer
>isn't my bag either.
>But when they eliminate baiting
>you can bet bears will
>either be included or soon
>to follow. That is part
>of the slippery slope. Next
>fall Colorado will vote to
>introduce wolves, there will be
>many hunters that will vote
>for it because they think
>its a romantic notion. So
>I wouldn't envy our foresight
>too much. We're phugked! Technology
>in hunting needs to be
>reigned in, where we draw
>the line would be different
>for each of us. As
>I said above I'm not
>a fan of the long
>range craze, be it rifle
>or bow. But I'm not
>going to actively work to
>get them banned because I
>think its an unethical way
>to hunt. They will all
>contribute to fewer opportunities for
>all of us in the
>end.
>
>
>
>>Now we've got to seriously consider
>>taking cookies away from the
>>fat kids here in Utah,
>>all while you curse all
>>the "Ski Utah" plates you
>>are increasingly encountering in your
>>favorite honey holes.
>
>luckily they aren't in my honey
>holes yet.
>
>Hopefully this gets me back on
>the Christmas card list??
>

Ok DW, now I like your tune much better!?

That is extremely unfortunate about baiting bears and certainly should be reexamined.
If you can possibly prove hunter success declines versus increasing bear numbers along with cases of problem bear issues, you may get it reversed.
Unfortunately, your state has become overrun by liberals moving from big cities into your ski towns and buying up million dollar homes in your mountains and rapidly staking claim.

Might not be able to fix the bear issues, but can you please at least get those Broncos back on a winning streak???
 

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