Trophy Tag Fairness Issue

clearwater150

Member
Messages
75
One observation and comment I made as I commented on the updated State Elk Management Plan was about tag fairness. As I look at the elk (and deer) trophy units, there are far more "any weapon" opportunities/tags issued than those specifically restricted to primitive weapons.

I know,I know...an archer or a muzzy mongrel can apply and draw one of these "any weapon" tags and hunt with their archery equipment....but.....I believe we would all benefit from some fine tuning here to get everyone on an equal and fair basis while preserving opportunity and increasing bull elk quality.

For example, I could have easily tagged out every year I have archery hunted (45+ yrs now) if I had had a rifle in my hands instead of archery equipment. The same could be said for every muzzy unit I have hunted. Instead, my success is somewhere south of 30 percent...some of that is my doing by being picky, but none-the-less...30% vs 100% is about right.

So...for our trophy units, I asked if we truly know the breakdown of primitive applicants vs modern firearm applicants. No one knows, of course, except that the vast majority of animals harvested in our trophy units are harvested with modern firearms. Then there is the occasional unit, like Unit 18 where both archery permits and rifle permits are issued for separate hunts. Far more rifle permits are issued. Or Unit 14, where there are no A tags available. So, I called the State IDFG office and asked what the breakdown was between archers and rifle hunters in the state. The answer I got was that they are very nearly equal....about 50/50.

So...I made a comment that for the revised Elk Plan, the IDFG should fairly split hunter opportunity in our trophy elk and Deer areas between modern firearm and primitive weapon based on true hunter demographics in the State.

Each demographic should get a fair and and equal shot at tags in our trophy areas (The hunts would be separated in time and tag holder would be restricted to using hunting equipment commensurate with their tag type - modern, archery, Muzzy). I am NOT advocating increasing tag numbers to compensate for reduced harvest expected to result from primitive weapons use.

If this were implemented, I would expect hunting quality to improve for everyone over time. Fewer bulls and bucks would be harvested by primitive weapons meaning the male age class would creep up as well as overall herd health as more mature males vied for breeding rights. All of us would come out winners.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-13 AT 06:45PM (MST)[p]I am at 100% with a rifle. I even tried to jinx it. I always get an elk with my rifle. Archery, not even close. I have only harvested two elk with a bow. Now I am trying for the muzzleloader hunts, And there are not very many muzzleloader bull hunts. I only rifle hunt for meat in Idaho because I have only seen a few bulls pushing 350. I wish they would do something about the deer. It is very sad when even seeing a buck during the hunt is an accomplishment. Stupid "Buck to Doe" ratio. They can shove that up where the sun doesn't shine.
 
Well put Mr. Clearwater.

I couldn't agree more. Being a bowhunter myself among other things.
I would also like to expand on this and throw a thought out there. Personally, I love just having the opportunity to hunt, like most of us. But this any-weapon deal really just suites those with a rifle. How about adjusting the controlled hunts to better apply to those who want to hunt with a muzzy or a bow. Even out the permits to give those hunters an opportunity. It will not only increase hunts available, but also increase your chance of drawing, by spreading out the pool size. Success rates on these would be lower than rifle hunts,(naturally) thereby increasing herd size. I realize that increased herd size isn't always the goal. (Remember, that deer and elk can eat themselves out of a winter range).

I am also in favor of choosing your weapon, whether for general hunts or for controlled hunts. This would mostly apply for general OTC tags. In Idaho, we really can't complain over opportunity. Heck we can hunt with all 3 weapons from August til December, it seems. But what if you could only hunt with a bow or a muzzy or a rifle? Your choices become much more limited, especially for muzzy hunters. It would at least give you a better hunting experience.

Lets go one step further. How about not only picking your weapon but add to that by picking your unit or units, like Elk hunts have become. I really like this idea. This would nock down hunter numbers greatly in many areas if not in all.

I think that Colorado has a pretty good system in place. It gives all hunters pretty equal opportunity. How about trophy potential, it has that too. Granted it has good populations of both deer and elk, and not bad on pronghorn.

Just my .02
 
I agree that with a "choose-your-weapon" system. When I moved back to Idaho 13 years ago after being gone to Wyoming and Colorado for 20 years, I was amazed that even on the A Tag, I could choose Elk Zones that allowed me to hunt with all three weapon types. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why...so I called the IDFG and asked. Their reply was that IDFG felt going to a Zone structure for Elk and limiting Tag holders to one Zone plus shifting to a quasi-choose-your-weapon restriction (like we have presently) was going to be a hard sell so they "sweetened the pot" to attract folks over to the A/primitive weapon Tag type.

If you haven't ever commented to IDFG I would encourage you to do so. I have commented a half dozen times and always received a response and even a phone call or two. I have been impressed with IDFG's professionalism in this regard. You can comment via their web site.

I do like the proposal being considered in the Elk Plan Revision, that would allow us to hunt elk in two different Zones (for a fee, of course).

I also agree with your idea of issuing all limited quota tags based on the demographics of hunters. However, as you noted, if a particular population really needs to be trimmed, then the long range stuff needs to be used.
 
I disagree with you Clearwater, and here's my reasoning.

Archers in general get longer seasons that coincide with the rut. Rifle hunters in much of the state have one or two week seasons that take place long after the last bugle of the year and in some areas, no season at all except for the controlled hunts.

Take for example the Lemhi, Beaverhead, Brownlee, Pioneer, Smoky Mountain, Bennet Hills, Big Desert, Snake River, Island Park, Bannock, and Diamond Creek zones. In these zones there are no general season rifle hunts but there are general season archery hunts. Archers already get to hunt in many of the trophy zones without the need of drawing a tag.

On top of that most archery hunts allow the archer to kill a cow even when there is no opportunity in those same units for a rifle hunter to kill a cow on a general tag.

I would also say that 30% is a very respectable success rate no matter which weapon you chose to use. The state-wide average is 15% and that is very similar to other states.

I could argue that in my experience I could have better chances at a large bull if I hunted the archery seasons rather than the rifle seasons. I have seen several 300+ bulls while scouting and grouse hunting in September but I have never seen anything larger than a raghorn during rifle season.

Bottom line is I feel that the opportunity is split fairly as the system currently stands.
 
how about archers hunt AFTER the rut? anyone who doesn't see that as a huge advantage over the rifle hunters is mistaken. to the guys that get there rifle bull every year congrats. but pickins have been slim lately for our group.
 
I respect your point of view. I really enjoy hunting the rut, not only because it is fun to interact with the elk at that time of the year, but because the weather is usually unbeatable for camping and being in the woods in September. And I agree with you that we archers already get longer seasons...which in my case doesn't seem to make much difference. I usually get one to three close calls every year despite whether I hunt 8 days or am lucky enough to get in 10 or 12 days, Usually, the elk wins. But, about once out of every three years one of those encounters goes right and I get a shot. Last year I had one of those....21 yards...and I missed...or rather....things really didn't go right because the fletching must have grazed one of the little branches sticking out from one of the trees between me and the elk. The arrow dived and buried itself in the dirt between the elks legs....in this case it was a small 6-pt...probably 3 1/2 yr old.

At any rate, my observation is that if it is true that 50 percent of the hunters in Idaho are archers....then that needs to be taken into consideration when doling out the coveted tags for the trophy areas in the State.
 
From the live chat last week,,,

Comment From Bryan
What are the approximate statewide numbers of: 1) Rifle, 2) Archery, and 3) Muzzleloader hunters? I personally would like to see a few more opportunities for muzzleloader hunts or muzzleloader-only controlled hunts.

Bryan, 93% of our elk hunters use a rifle at some time. We have 82,000 elk hunters last year and 19000 were archers, and 6100 were muzzleloaders, the rest were rifle hunters
 
>I disagree with you Clearwater, and
>here's my reasoning.
>
>Archers in general get longer seasons
>that coincide with the rut.
> Rifle hunters in much
>of the state have one
>or two week seasons that
>take place long after the
>last bugle of the year
>and in some areas, no
>season at all except for
>the controlled hunts.
>
>Take for example the Lemhi, Beaverhead,
>Brownlee, Pioneer, Smoky Mountain, Bennet
>Hills, Big Desert, Snake River,
>Island Park, Bannock, and Diamond
>Creek zones. In these
>zones there are no general
>season rifle hunts but there
>are general season archery hunts.
> Archers already get to
>hunt in many of the
>trophy zones without the need
>of drawing a tag.
>
>On top of that most archery
>hunts allow the archer to
>kill a cow even when
>there is no opportunity in
>those same units for a
>rifle hunter to kill a
>cow on a general tag.
>
>
>I would also say that 30%
>is a very respectable success
>rate no matter which weapon
>you chose to use.
>The state-wide average is 15%
>and that is very similar
>to other states.
>
>I could argue that in my
>experience I could have better
>chances at a large bull
>if I hunted the archery
>seasons rather than the rifle
>seasons. I have seen
>several 300+ bulls while scouting
>and grouse hunting in September
>but I have never seen
>anything larger than a raghorn
>during rifle season.
>
>Bottom line is I feel that
>the opportunity is split fairly
>as the system currently stands.
>


What are you talking about? The Lemhi has a General Tag for rifle ELK. Spike Only November 1-7
 
It is interesting that I received a different breakdown between primitive weapon hunters vs modern firearm hunters from the IDFG. I got a 50-50 breakdown and, according to one of the latest posts, information given out at the Elk Plan Revision Chat indicated a 30-70, primitive to modern, split. I suppose the figures are inherently squishy because, as in the McCall Zone, a holder of an A Tag does have a short modern firearm season and can also hunt with a muzzy in parts of the Zone both early and late. So a holder of the A Tag can do all three. So, in what weapon category would you tally an A-Tag holder in the McCall zone? So the picture is not clear to me what the actual breakdown may be.
 
I wonder if these are archery/ muzzleloader tags sold, or info from the hunter reports as the hunter can break down the weapons used/days hunted. I would guess tag sales as too many hunters dont fill out the reports.
 
@dreaminbouthuntin

You are right that the Lemhi zone has a OTC Spike hunt but I don't think that is pertinent to the original discussion.

My comments were directed at the premise of this discussion being in regards to "trophy tags". Not many people go out in search of that "trophy" spike every year.

Clearwater's dicussion is directed at the fact that there are more Any Weapon Controlled hunt tags than Archery only controlled hunt tags.

I stated that this is because most of those Any Weapon tags are for areas that do not have a general any bull season whereas in the same unit, archery tags are OTC. Therefore there is no reason to add additional archery controlled hunts or reduce rifle tags in favor of archery because there is already archery opportunity in those units.

Furthermore, since most parts of the state offer archery season during the rut it is not unreasonable that a few units should be set aside for controlled hunts for any weapon during the rut.
 
Well said IDELKSLAYER...you make A very good point. For those units that have an unlimited/otc archery hunt and LE draw for any weapon, it would not make sense to split the LE tags out by hunter demographics.

Just for fun I pulled up the 2013 regs and tallied the LE tags for the categories: Any weapon, archery and muzzy:



Antlered Elk Any Weapon - 2810 tags
Archery - 111 tags
Muzzy - 90 tags

Antlerless Elk Any Weapon - 12,195 Tags
Archery - 1150 tags
Muzzy - 1375 Tags

(does not include Youth hunts, Landowner Permits or Outfitter Allocation. "Short Range Weapon Only" added to archery tally)

Antlered Deer Any Weapon - 3466
Archery - 510
Muzzy - 720

Antlerless Dr Any Weapon - 2180
Archery - 0
Muzzy - 0

(does not include the Unlimited units and does not include the units that are split between Any Weapon and Archery Only...i.e. where X permits are issued but there is both a rifle portion and an archery or Muzzy portion. I figured those are a wash. I included all either sex tag tallies w/Antlered. There are no antlerless archery or muzzy permits available that I could find in regs. However, many of the archery and muzzy tags are either sex.)

Summary Antlered Elk 93% any weapon
4% Archery
3% Muzzy

Antlerless elk 83% Any Weapon
8% Archery
9% Muzzy

Antlered Deer 74% Any Weapon
11% Archery
15% Muzzy

Anterless Deer 100% Any Weapon

These numbers illustrate the need to consider hunter demographics (where appropriate) so that there is fairness to all of us who together pay the bills for wildlife management in Idaho.
 
How many archery hunters hunt elk during the rut every year (Sept.)? How many during the deer rut (Nov./Dec.)? Since Idaho isnt strictly LE hunts you have to consider that these tags/opportunity are just as good if not better than LE tags. Idaho is a bowhunters dream with all the days we get to hunt, muzzy hunting is a little more limited. I still think theres plenty of opportunity for all hunters and dont want them to change anything. Just my opinion though.
 
> How many archery hunters hunt
>elk during the rut every
>year (Sept.)? How many during
>the deer rut (Nov./Dec.)? Since
>Idaho isnt strictly LE hunts
>you have to consider that
>these tags/opportunity are just as
>good if not better than
>LE tags. Idaho is a
>bowhunters dream with all the
>days we get to hunt,
>muzzy hunting is a little
>more limited. I still think
>theres plenty of opportunity for
>all hunters and dont want
>them to change anything. Just
>my opinion though.

My opinion matches his...
 
I too believe that archers are benefited by the timing of their OTC tags, the length of the seasons, and the relative lack of pressure, at least compared to any weapon OTC hunts. For these reasons I too believe we do not need to re-proportion the tags between rifle and "primitive" weapons for LE hunts. But, I am a rifle hunter so my perspective will always be scewed, as I imagine most "primitive" hunters views will be.

I don't mean to sound gruff, but I say to archers that would argue for more LE tags, be happy with the unlimited "rut" hunt you have.
 
Great comments on the issue. I would agree that if you based your thoughts on controlled hunt tag allocation I would agree that primitive weapon hunters get a short shaft. The reality from our survey of 2011 elk hunters says that 93% use a rifle sometime. The other issue as was already pointed out is that we have a boat load of general archery opportunity that is for the most part during the rut. Managing by weapon type used to provide us more flexibility to add opportunity. However now we have areas where we have close to as high success rates with archery (due to timing of the hunt) as we do with rifles later in the season. As for the muzzleloaders, in most areas successes rates are also very close to those of any weapon ( modern rifle) seasons. So splitting them up because they are less successful doesn't really work that well.
There is also no doubt that in 1998 with the advent of the A/B tag system there was created a lot more archers than previous. Interestingly enough if you look at our survey of 2011 elk hunters archers were more apt to answer the survey than rifle hunters, even though we sent equal numbers to both hunter types. Archers are definitely really engaged in elk hunting.

I encourage those that have not looked at our elk planning website to take a look and give us your thoughts and opinions. The elk plan is about you. http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/elkplanning.

I'm new to this forum and intend to try to engage when I think I can help or add to a conversation or answer a question. If anyone has a question that they don't want to post or want me to engage on a thread, please PM me.


Toby Boudreau
Deer Elk Coordinator
Idaho Fish and Game
 
If the Archery people want some "Archery only" draws give it to them. Take all of the A tags that have no B tag and turn them into a draw. More revenue for F&G as there will be more applicants for those tags. Win Win.

DZ
 
Then lets take the archery only hunts a step further, no rifle hunts period in these units, no early, late, otc or LE hunts for rifles to cream the crop with a drive by shooting in Nov & Dec. Let muzz guys have a LE bull hunt and an otc muzz cow hunt, make them Primative weapon only Units.
 
Then we all could call ourselves Archery hunters. :) I have had a bow in the closet since about 85. I have nevr really considered myself an Archery hunter. But if the best units draw to both Rifle and Archery and the odds of drawing the Archery tag is better you would know which hat my name would be in.

DZ
 
I hunt with all three weapons but prefer archery. One thing I don't think is being considered is that because of the lack of controlled archery hunts, many of us archers put in for the any weapon controlled hunts, making the draw for them more difficult. I know it may not be a popular opinion, but I would like to see a few of the controlled areas become controlled for archery as well.

I think there can be a good balance between opportunity and quality. It seems that many people tend to want to push things to the extremes in either direction.
 

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