Umatilla Tribe & Sheep/Goat Killings

M

muleyman

Very Active Member
Messages
1,538
What's really going on with regards to the tribes that are getting tags for sheep and mountain goats here in NE Oregon?!?!

The Umatilla tribe until 2015 has received 6 ram tags for Lookout Mountain and 8 billy goat tags for the Elkhorns. 2015 the number of tags has been reduced to 3 tags for sheep and EIGHT for billy goat, for the Indians. I believe we get 1 or 2 billy goat tags :(

A guy on iFish has posted "7MM-08 Does it Again-Ram Down" with pics and a story of his ram. Long story short we watched these 2 guys road hunt up and down the one main gravel road in this area, no less than 12 times past our place, 2 weekends ago. We then watched them get out of their truck and shoot a ram from the ROAD. This was no hunt, it was a killing. Their season is FIVE months long and ours is 15 days. 15 days is plenty but 5 months?!? They wait until December because they know the snow pushes the sheep down to the roads. Last year we caught a guy on private property that shot a ram on this property without getting permission. We waited for him to return to his truck after we watched him shoot this ram. We confronted him and he said..."we have the right to hunt anytime and anywhere we want"! We said OSP will think differently and we called them. I guess its their RIGHT to poach?!? LOL

I'm sorry but our system is really screwed up when it comes to these tribal hunts. Rant over.

muleyman
 
It's a matter of tribal hunting rights, they can give them the permits or they can just go do it anyway.

A Nez Perce tribal member shot 2 sheep on Lookout without a permit a few years ago and got caught , they did nothing to him.

I think it's a matter of the state not wanting to really push it for fear they may find out they shouldn't have asked the question. I don't really like it but I think it's just the way it is.
















Stay thirsty my friends
 
Animal farm...............

8346emporor_obama.jpg

I liked it big...fondler doesn't
 
I have said it for years and I will say it again. There is no greater example of discrimination and racism than the governments decision to make native americans the chosen race above all others.

Face it. You are not as good as those people. That's exactly how your government looks at it. Shutup and know your place.
 
The people we practiced genocide on and stole this land from were not even full citizens until 1924. I'd say they deserve a few perks.

It came a little late but the change in policy is makes this nation better than the taliban.

If you think the indians have such a sweet deal you don't know much about how most of them live. I have my opinions on the rez system today and how it's counterproductive to the residents, but that's beside the point we made a deal with them and it's the only one we've honored.









Stay thirsty my friends
 
How many of those victims of genocide are shooting sheep?

Yes I think they have a fantastic deal. Sure they have a high poverty rate. Sure they have a higher rate of substance abuse than the rest of America. But they don't have to live under the thumb of the same government rules that we do. You want to talk about genocide? You better study what they did to each other and what they did to the blacks just a couple of years ago. If you want to buy into the white guilt and make them better than your own kids that's fine but don't stand on every one else's neck to do it.
 
Isn't it a simple case where some people want all the benefits of being "equal" yet all the added benefits of being "different"?

Don't those who are different have access to everything in the USA that we all have? ....along with the dole from the US Gov?

Sure, some groups of people got a raw deal but all of them who got a raw deal are long dead.

Where's MY compensation for what my ancestors went through?

We're the greatest Nation on the earth but we don't always get things right. Never have, never will.

Poaching is still poaching!

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-14 AT 01:55PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-14 AT 01:52?PM (MST)

The deal was cut via treaty, which if anyone would bother to research, has been upheld numerous times by the United States Supreme Court as "high law"...

The treaties are not going to be broken because tristate doesn't think its fair to his kids. Life isn't fair...right tristate?

I don't happen to care much for the situation, but I do respect the laws of the United States, its treaties, and its highest Court. I also respect the integrity of the United States to honor its binding contract with indigenous people.

This is a non-winner to even bring up, only going to bring out the prejudice...which it already has.

Bigger fish to fry than fighting something you are NEVER going to be able to do anything about.

Finally, this is NOT poaching, it is treaty rights afforded the tribes via legal contract with the U.S. Government.

Going to have to live with this one...
 
Well stated Tristate.


For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.

Thomas Jefferson
 
BuzzH,

you want to go back and see where I stated it wasn't fair? I just told you how it is. Those people are better than you an me and any of our kids unless you married a native American. And I agree get used to it. They are righteous royalty and you are a subject. I

I couldn't give a flying flip about a treaty some old dead dudes signed before any of us had to live under it.

All I was pointing out is this is the truth about how "free" we people think we are.

The one problem that bugs me is the fact that you have given up and decided your children will always be a second class citizen under these other people. That's bull$h!t. Nothing is written that says the laws can't be changed that hold me and mine to the floor.
 
tristate,

No problem, "and make them better than your own kids that's fine"..

It doesn't matter if you give a flying flip about an old treaty, what matters is the treaty, and how its been upheld by case law via the United States Supreme Court.

That's all that matters, there is nothing more to it.

I haven't given up, its already been decided via the highest court in the United States. Where do you challenge it further?

Laws can be changed, but I don't see you leading the charge to challenge the United States Supreme Court over treaty rights.

Good luck with that.
 
Its not a treaty!

Where in the treaty does it say you can't shoot a polar bear. Where in the treaty does it say "White man no killum' eagle"?

It has ZERO to do with the stupid treaty you are talking about. And I am not arguing whether it is constitutional. Just because the supreme court says a law is constitutional does not mean it can never be repealed or altered.

This isn't a problem with a treaty its a problem with a government who has said you are a second class citizen to someone else.

The bill of rights originally stated blacks weren't completely human. Good thing everyone didn't just take your advice and say "oh well its the law".
 
Tristate,

It is a treaty...every treaty with any tribe has language specific to taking fish and game...

Heres one example from the treaty signed by James Buchanan in 1855.

ARTICLE III. And nrovided, That if necessary for the public convenience roads may berun through the said reservation; and, on the other hand, the right of way with free access from
the same tot eh nearest public highway is secured to them, as also the right in common with citizens of the United States to travel upon all public highways.

The exclusive right of taking fish in all the streams running through or bordering said reservation is further secured to said Indians; as also the right of taking fish at all usual and
accustomed places, in common with citizens of the Territory, and of erecting temporary buildings for curing; together with the privilege of hunting, gathering roots and berries, and pasturing their horses and cattle upon open and unclaimed land.

Put the listening ears on tristate, treaties are upheld by the USSC as "high law".

The right for indigenous people to hunt and fish ALL unclaimed and open lands, taken to mean PUBLIC lands, is right there in a legal, binding document signed by a U.S. President.

You can argue and rant and rave all you want about being a second class citizen, you aren't being treated fairly, someone else has it better than you...all you want.

That doesn't change the fact that indigenous people have the absolute, and legally challenged right, to hunt, fish, harvest berries, etc. on any lands defined as open in what was their former Territory. They don't need to recognize State law, they don't have to adhere to bag limits, etc.

Continue waving the Confederate flag and have another cup of hater-aid...this issue was decided FOR you, a long time ago.

This issue is done...stick a fork in it.
 
Hey law man what treaties are tied to the NACM?

What treaty formed the USFWS department of the interior, the FBI, the EPA, and then told all the second class citizens they weren't as good as native americans? Can you point to that treaty? care to try?

You obviously don't understand how the supreme court works. Just because the supreme court upholds a law or treaty doesn't mean that a law or treaty that apposes it is unconstitutional.

SO I want to know since I am supposed to roll over and take it do you believe that your ancestors should have just kept blacks at a less than human status because it was written into the constitution?
 
Really tristste, you're going to lose it over the fact an indian can kill an eagle and you can't? might be good money in mounting eagles huh?

What does a resident of Pine Ridge have you don't ? you ever been there? it makes Pakistan look high rent. go see how they live and tell me you're 2nd class. give me a break.








This is a dumb conversation even by MM standards.









Stay thirsty my friends
 
440,

You are like many uneducated Americans who think prosperity and liberty are the same thing.

THEY AREN'T!

I am not arguing whether there are some broke Indians. Being pore doesn't mean you deserve special rights and privileges over other citizens.

If I was really poor would you suddenly think I have the right to go shoot all the bighorn meat I want? You have two options here. The racist answer or the white guilt answer.
 
No, you're a person who doesn't fulfill their obligations.

We took this land from the aboriginal people and in turn made obligations that are still in place. in the form of reservations and treaties. if these obligations apply to you then for damn sure you do have spercial rights and privileges. end of stoty.

The fact most are poor has nothing to do with their rights or yours, their situation it's not nearly as sweet as you seem to think it is. I could live on a rez if I wished I have family there , I don't. what's that tell you.


















Stay thirsty my friends
 
Who are you to decide what MY obligations are????

See this is what I mean by we have all become a second class citizen. Free men don't have other men decide what their obligations are. I don't owe you anything, END OF STORY.
 
The courts and our leaders seem to disagree with you. that's what you're crying about. I don't have to decide , they did.

END OF STORY.















Stay thirsty my friends
 
Having spent a fair bit of time around tribal members. There are two kinds, the ones that work hard, get off the res, use the advantages given to them to get ahead and make a life for themselves. Then there are the res rats who hate "whitey" and blame him for all of the problems in there life. They use the victim excuse to justify a life style of drinking and drug abuse, wanton waste of fish and game animals, and collecting massive amounts of junk.

I personally think the ones who don't live the res lifestyle are way better off.

As for the hunting rights, the umitillas aren't the worst by a long shot. My two biggest complaints are 1, Everyone knows how vulnerable those sheep are when they are on the winter range.. Thats why every season (even the auction and raffle tags) in Oregon is closed by 11/22 this year. The last tribal hunter is in there hunting right now, hes been caught tresspassing many times in there on the winter range, but there is no enforcement. Rumor has it when he kills out, it will be his 6th bighorn in Oregon tagged, and there is at least one more that was left to rot out there.

Secondly, This unit is getting hammered by everyone. Between the Auction, Raffle, state, and indian hunters the take has been over 8-12 rams a year the last 4 or 5 at least. Its irresponsible at best.
 
I know the government is who set it in place. That doesn't mean I have to like it and we should never strive for something better. You think I should be quiet about it because there bees some po fokes out there. I'll tell you the same thing I told Buzz. The government used to not consider blacks as humans. Should we have never complained since after all the courts and leaders disagreed?
 
willametteriveroutlaw is right in everything he said.

The hunting season for the Indians with regards to sheep use to close in November as well...until just a few years ago. They fought tooth & nail arguing it "interrupted their salmon season and needed it extended through the end of December". Well they won and since every single one of them hunts December when the sheep are pushed down to the river KNOWING they can have easy pickings.

Looks like ODFW has cut the number of tags for 2015...AWESOME.

muleyman
 
I hear what you're saying and I don't like it either, but there are many things I'd change if I could.

In the big picture white hunters have far more serious threats to the sport than a few natives getting what they're entitled to. in Oregon, ODFW is #1 , lion are #2 and wolves are #3.
















Stay thirsty my friends
 
in Oregon, ODFW
>is #1 , lion are
>#2 and wolves are #3.
>

That's an interesting perspective 440.
Zeke
 
>
>
>I hear what you're saying and
>I don't like it either,
> but there are many
>things I'd change if I
>could.
>
>In the big picture white hunters
>have far more serious threats
>to the sport than a
>few natives getting what they're
>entitled to. in Oregon, ODFW
>is #1 , lion are
>#2 and wolves are #3.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Stay thirsty my friends


In most cases I'd agree, when it comes the Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep though they are a pretty large threat. In look out Mountain last year there were 6 tribal tags, for comparision, there were 5 RMB tags for the whole state last year (not counting Governor and auction tags)
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-14 AT 02:01PM (MST)[p]Tristate said,

Who are you to decide what MY obligations are????

See this is what I mean by we have all become a second class citizen. Free men don't have other men decide what their obligations are. I don't owe you anything, END OF STORY.

Are you frickin' serious?

You need a crash course in remedial grade school civics.

You have other men, and women...and oh my god, some even of different ethnicity, deciding your obligations for you every single day. We don't live in a democracy, and apparently you dwell somewhere in fantasy land.

This country was set up as a Representative Republic a long time ago.

Do a google search to see what comes with that...pay attention to the Senate and House of Representatives.

We are a country of laws, regulations, and treaties...have always been.

If you don't like the US laws, regulations and their binding obligations, buy an Island and good luck to you!

What a dip...
 
What about the fact that here in UT the tribes get tags for animals that were never here when the treaty was written?
 
What species didn't exist before the whiteman?

Before the whiteman they didn't have limits, seasons or need tags. so a few permits probably isn't overcompensation.

I can't argue the tribes don't sometimes take advantage of the situation , or that they never harm the resources. they do.


A rez is almost always on the most worthless piece of ground nobody wanted at the time, so they get to leave it to hunt sometimes. whatever , they still got screwed.














Stay thirsty my friends
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-14 AT 06:17PM (MST)[p]Zeke, ODFW is the most incompetent game dept known to man. they don't need biologists just bean counters, their only mission is to have revenue meet expenses.

The lions are about to place the mule deer on the ESA in eastern OR, and the wolves here .

Add it all up and the tribes are absolutely a non issue.
















Stay thirsty my friends
 
Buzz,

Are you ever going to man up and answer the question or just keep trying to change the subject?
 
Tristate,

Are you ever going to understand how our Country, court system, and Government work?

...feigning stupidity isn't an act for you.
 
So lets give them the key to the castle. Both moose and mtn goats were not native to UT. so why should they be given tags for them? So what if they decide your home is part of their "rez"....you just gonna give them your home...it is only fair because a couple HUNDRED years ago some white man done them wrong? Of course you will...right?
 
Are you going to answer the questions Buzz? I'm not going to forget that you are to chicken to answer a couple of silly internet questions. You can talk all the trash about me you want but I think most people are seeing they are sick of being treated like second class citizens. Even worse the fact that the "Noble Savages" are destroying "our" wildlife. So Buzz what treaties are attached to the NACM?
 
Tristate

I don't answer insignificant questions that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Treaties, civics, United States Supreme Court...(hint, if you can take one).
 
I posted on this topic before you ever did and you thought it was significant enough to attack me without thought. Now you realize your ten dollar mouth is writing fifty dollar checks and you keep blabbering hoping you never have to answer the questions that are %100 on topic. Keep crawfishing.

What treaty are you talking about that formed the department of the interior, the USFWS, and the EPA. Then tell me what treaties are attached to the NACM.
 
treedagain, what makes you so sure moose and mt goats were never in Utah before the whiteman ? you know somebody who was here 1000 years ago? your own FW service says goats were probably in Utah , and moose could have been as well. it really doesn't matter anyway they're there now.


Tristate , you seem to wonder off of the topic rather easy. we are talking about tribal rights , specifically hunting. here, maybe this will help familiarize you with the topic since you're obviously are clueless. keep in mind oregon was not even a state at the time this treaty was made, and the sheep that are in question of this debate are in the bounds of it. and yes, we screwed them out of most of what was promised in it.


http://www.critfc.org/member_tribes_overview/nez-perce-tribe/treaty-with-the-nez-perces-1855/















Stay thirsty my friends
 
I'm talking about MY RIGHTS. I haven't wandered anywhere. My rights have been widdled away while theirs were protected and expanded upon.
 
tristate,

In regard to the treaties agreed to, via YOUR Representatives of the United States, and upheld by YOUR United States Supreme Court, you have the absolute right to continue singing the blues...

That's what right you have...and I have to say, you're really knocking it out of the park exercising same.
 
So tristates' rights should supercede a 1855 US government treaty giving hunting and fishing rights to native americans.

I don't think so. a most unfortunate matter.















Stay thirsty my friends
 
Our laws seem to suggest they should.

Our laws also suggest that the native americans treaty should be honored. I'm guessing you think our laws are wrong in both cases. after all, the govenment can't get anything right can they?























Stay thirsty my friends
 
It is my understanding in their treaty they are seeded "traditional hunting grounds". These can be far outside the reservation, basically if they show that their ancestors used to hunt that area they retain hunting rights throughout that range.
I was introduced to it rather abruptly. My wife drew a California Bighorn tag the first year it was offered in the area. About 400 people put in for the tag and she drew the one tag for the area. It was a very small unit with the rams hanging in about a half mile of breaks and bluffs. After I had spent weeks scouting the sheep and planning her hunt I got a call from a Umatilla tribal member two days before the hunt started. He informed me that he also had a tag for the unit and wondered if I had been scouting and could help him since he was short on time and had just found out he had the tag.
He was actually very cool with me about it offering to give us space or not shoot a ram we had our eyes on and I ended up helping him and even letting him hunt with us some.
My wife killed her ram on the second day and he returned on the 6th day and killed his ram.
I just wish ODFW would put a page in the regs explaining the situation and telling what tags that the tribal members will be receieving so that persons aren't blindsided like I was.
 
Let me get this straight... you seen him and another guy road hunt up and down the main road? 12 times? 2 weekends ago? Shot from the road?

With all those facts... I see why you are upset. Or maybe, you weren't there... and most of this drama is made up to somewhat attempt others to validate your frustration...

carry on, Im getting educated reading this.
 
>Let me get this straight... you
>seen him and another guy
>road hunt up and down
>the main road? 12
>times? 2 weekends ago?
> Shot from the road?
>
>
>With all those facts... I see
>why you are upset.
>Or maybe, you weren't there...
>and most of this drama
>is made up to somewhat
>attempt others to validate your
>frustration...
>
>carry on, Im getting educated reading
>this.


Give Motcha credit, he shot from 20 yards off the road..

You live in way to small of an area after way to visible of sheep to get any slack. No one would have given you an ounce of ##### if you had earned it.
 
>>Let me get this straight... you
>>seen him and another guy
>>road hunt up and down
>>the main road? 12
>>times? 2 weekends ago?
>> Shot from the road?
>>
>>
>>With all those facts... I see
>>why you are upset.
>>Or maybe, you weren't there...
>>and most of this drama
>>is made up to somewhat
>>attempt others to validate your
>>frustration...
>>
>>carry on, Im getting educated reading
>>this.
>
>
>Give Motcha credit, he shot from
>20 yards off the road..
>
>
>You live in way to small
>of an area after way
>to visible of sheep to
>get any slack. No one
>would have given you an
>ounce of ##### if you
>had earned it.

Your a joke wilamette. I did the background and see what you're trying to do. I know your kind and just laugh. Entertain others and paint them a picture... haha

Yep you are right. I deserve to credit. So stop posting in all the threads... just a hater... keep on hating. Haha
 
Whats the point anymore... didn't you attempt this same gibberish in ifish?

But please, keep on going... I'm learning as I go. What else did I do that I don't know about... I'm humored now...

carry on!
 

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