Topgun you are correct on the online apps making it a level playing field for everyone, not trying to get in a pissing match with you, but you also stated that if 100% of the hunting population could not afford a tag that violates the NAM. But I know of lots of guys who can't afford to apply for out of state tags, so does this not violate NAM?
UT results\OR deadline
- Thread starter Zim
- Start date
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
>Topgun you are correct on the
>online apps making it a
>level playing field for everyone,
>not trying to get in
>a pissing match with you,
>but you also stated that
>if 100% of the hunting
>population could not afford a
>tag that violates the NAM.
>But I know of lots
>of guys who can't afford
> to apply for out
>of state tags, so does
>this not violate NAM?
Hangfire, What you mention about guys not affording NR fees is absolutely true. States have been pushing the NAM around for years. Their own sale of auction tags is another example. I am against all those as well. SFW simply takes it to an entirely new level. No question they are the biggest conveyor for European style hunting in the US.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
>online apps making it a
>level playing field for everyone,
>not trying to get in
>a pissing match with you,
>but you also stated that
>if 100% of the hunting
>population could not afford a
>tag that violates the NAM.
>But I know of lots
>of guys who can't afford
> to apply for out
>of state tags, so does
>this not violate NAM?
Hangfire, What you mention about guys not affording NR fees is absolutely true. States have been pushing the NAM around for years. Their own sale of auction tags is another example. I am against all those as well. SFW simply takes it to an entirely new level. No question they are the biggest conveyor for European style hunting in the US.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
Gator
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 18,202
- Every citizen qualified to hunt under law has equal standing to obtain the privilege and opportunity to hunt or otherwise benefit from use of the public property.
So will WYO SFW be trying to get the outfitter law changed for the wilderness area. Will SFW stand up and be counted as being against this welfare law.
Just 2 questions Bob.
"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
So will WYO SFW be trying to get the outfitter law changed for the wilderness area. Will SFW stand up and be counted as being against this welfare law.
Just 2 questions Bob.
"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
fishon
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,052
Birdman
Utah/SFW have cut out well over 100,000 mule deer hunters since 1994 and that number is probably closer to 150,000. How many Elk, Sheep, Moose, Goat, Bison and Antelope tags have been added since 1994?
So take the loss in Mule deer permits cut/lost and add back the gain in all the other permits and you will see how many hunting opportunities were lost. (over 100,000 total lost)
Also back then we could hunt deer in all 3 seasons that had longer season dates. Also we could hunt larger areas. Those are now gone which translates into less hunting opportunity.
I am sure this is clear to you now as far as LOST hunting opportunity.
As far as expo tags go remember this. I traveled the state and pushed through expo tags among the Racs and wildlife board as the General Manager of the MDF. I along with the couple others that did this promised that a SIGNIFICANT amount of the money raised by these tags would go on the ground in UTAH for WILDLIFE.
That simply has not happened, and A LOT of the expo tag dollars are going to things that have NOTHING to do with UTAH'S wildlife. That has been verified by the group themselves when they listed the "projects" done with the expo tag money.
Any other questions you have on either subject.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
Utah/SFW have cut out well over 100,000 mule deer hunters since 1994 and that number is probably closer to 150,000. How many Elk, Sheep, Moose, Goat, Bison and Antelope tags have been added since 1994?
So take the loss in Mule deer permits cut/lost and add back the gain in all the other permits and you will see how many hunting opportunities were lost. (over 100,000 total lost)
Also back then we could hunt deer in all 3 seasons that had longer season dates. Also we could hunt larger areas. Those are now gone which translates into less hunting opportunity.
I am sure this is clear to you now as far as LOST hunting opportunity.
As far as expo tags go remember this. I traveled the state and pushed through expo tags among the Racs and wildlife board as the General Manager of the MDF. I along with the couple others that did this promised that a SIGNIFICANT amount of the money raised by these tags would go on the ground in UTAH for WILDLIFE.
That simply has not happened, and A LOT of the expo tag dollars are going to things that have NOTHING to do with UTAH'S wildlife. That has been verified by the group themselves when they listed the "projects" done with the expo tag money.
Any other questions you have on either subject.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
Gator---I've asked Bob those questions more than once on the Wyoming Forum and got more beating around the bush, so good luck if you get a "real" answer to your questions! It will probably be more along the line of "it's a WY law that most want", "I have more important stuff to do like wolves and grizzlies", "I only work for and answer to my B of D's", etc.
So Tony, do you really think that the Utah deer herd could handle another 100,000 to 150,000 people out there trying to get a deer? Don't you think that would distroy the herd?.
So you are calling Troy a liar when he says
In SFW's case those funds generated by the application fee are used to accomplish our mission.SFW could argu that 100% of those funds are spent on preserving and enhancing Utahs Wildlife.
So you are calling Troy a liar when he says
In SFW's case those funds generated by the application fee are used to accomplish our mission.SFW could argu that 100% of those funds are spent on preserving and enhancing Utahs Wildlife.
sagebrush
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,584
I have just one question to ask.
Every legal citizen in the United States has the right to vote. If a small group decided to put the voting privilege up for auction to help reduce the national debt and limit the number of voters, would that violate the spirit of the law?
Every potential voter would have the right to bid, but would lose the absolute right to vote. The intent of reducing the national debt is a noble cause but not at the price of eliminating equal access to voting.
The SFW model puts forth the premise of promoting the welfare of wildlife at the expense of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. That's the best view. In my opinion, the SFW model perverts the good works of volunteer conservationists to promote the self serving interests of those that would use the monetary proceeds for their personal benefit (consulting fees and paychecks) or those that would circumvent the draw process to obtain premium tags. Both of those aspects are contrary to the NAMWC.
Every legal citizen in the United States has the right to vote. If a small group decided to put the voting privilege up for auction to help reduce the national debt and limit the number of voters, would that violate the spirit of the law?
Every potential voter would have the right to bid, but would lose the absolute right to vote. The intent of reducing the national debt is a noble cause but not at the price of eliminating equal access to voting.
The SFW model puts forth the premise of promoting the welfare of wildlife at the expense of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. That's the best view. In my opinion, the SFW model perverts the good works of volunteer conservationists to promote the self serving interests of those that would use the monetary proceeds for their personal benefit (consulting fees and paychecks) or those that would circumvent the draw process to obtain premium tags. Both of those aspects are contrary to the NAMWC.
fishon
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,052
Birdman
Whether the herds could handle the 100,000+ more hunters was not the question. You asked me to explain why there was LESS opportunity now then then and I did. IF you want to discuss whether the herds could handle that well that is another topic.
I will say this, more opportunity for archery and less emphasis on trophy and you could add tens of thousands of more opportunities for deer hunters.
As far as Calling Troy a liar.... No I am not. Anyone can make any argument to defend their position, but that does not make it a good argument.
I will tell you this, If ALL the expo tag revenues were posted and all the places that revenue went were posted it would be an argument that SFW and MDF and FNAWS would lose.
Troy did not travel the state and make the promises with the racs neither did Miles (MDF president) so they do not have a 1st hand knowledge of the process and promises that took place. They are defending their paychecks in my opinion, and the EXPO tag revenue is the greatest welfare program this state has EVER seen in my opinion.
As offered before, I will gladly debate ANYONE, ANYTIME and ANYWHERE on the EXPO tags, the revenue and the intended purpose of those tags. But as you can see the people that pushed the tags through with me want NO PART of that because they will be exposed.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
Whether the herds could handle the 100,000+ more hunters was not the question. You asked me to explain why there was LESS opportunity now then then and I did. IF you want to discuss whether the herds could handle that well that is another topic.
I will say this, more opportunity for archery and less emphasis on trophy and you could add tens of thousands of more opportunities for deer hunters.
As far as Calling Troy a liar.... No I am not. Anyone can make any argument to defend their position, but that does not make it a good argument.
I will tell you this, If ALL the expo tag revenues were posted and all the places that revenue went were posted it would be an argument that SFW and MDF and FNAWS would lose.
Troy did not travel the state and make the promises with the racs neither did Miles (MDF president) so they do not have a 1st hand knowledge of the process and promises that took place. They are defending their paychecks in my opinion, and the EXPO tag revenue is the greatest welfare program this state has EVER seen in my opinion.
As offered before, I will gladly debate ANYONE, ANYTIME and ANYWHERE on the EXPO tags, the revenue and the intended purpose of those tags. But as you can see the people that pushed the tags through with me want NO PART of that because they will be exposed.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
Tony, That is the question. You said that SFW cut hunters by 100,000. The hunters were cut from the deer hunt. If the deer herd could not handle those hunters then it was a good move. If the deer herd could handle 100,000 more hunters then it was a bad move. So again can the deer herd handle another 100,000 hunters or was the move to cut the hunters a good move to protect the deer herd.
You stated: "I will say this, more opportunity for archery and less emphasis on trophy and you could add tens of thousands of more opportunities for deer hunters." Are you saying that if they moved the tags into archery that tens of thousands more tags can be issued. I am just trying to figure out where you are coming from.
You stated: "I will say this, more opportunity for archery and less emphasis on trophy and you could add tens of thousands of more opportunities for deer hunters." Are you saying that if they moved the tags into archery that tens of thousands more tags can be issued. I am just trying to figure out where you are coming from.
Outdoors
Member
- Messages
- 15
Hunting, voting and driving are all priviledges. Why not segregate the access to priviledges on ability of the participant to pay. The voting scenario is interesting. You could also auction off the right to drive vehicles at a faster speed and use the auction proceeds to improve the safety of the road surface for all drivers.
Why not auction 100% of the hunting tags on eBay. I presume every tag is undervalued if the pool of tags is selling out most years. I guarantee every sheep tag sold is undervalued. States are failing to properly price state assets! Why cap the auction at 1 tag per species or 1% or 10%? 100% or bust!
All of us that hunt in more than one state painfully know the non-resident fees often 10x resident fees. I concur this is harmful to the spriit of NAM by segregating residents of 49 states but as long as all the residents of the state are on equal standing for drawing a tag then so be it. I support state's rights to decide what is best within constitutional limits. If they want to limit non-resident draw success and charge 10x then that is their right.
Residents pay all sorts of taxes in their state compared to non-residents. That is the reason given for the 10x fee for non-resident hunters.
Why limit the higher fees to non-resident hunters?
Why not have the sales tax be 10x for all non-residents who are in your state? Why not charge 10x the state fuel tax on fuel to non-residents?
Apply this "special fairness fee" to all non-residents since they are not paying the level of taxes you do as a resident to use your county and city roads, hospitals, sidewalks, etc. Non-residents, including relatives and former residents and non-resident landowners, can just stay home if they do not like it.
The fee will be disbursed to residents. Residents vote. I predict landslides for politicians that tap into this previoulsy mismanaged revenue source.
Why not auction 100% of the hunting tags on eBay. I presume every tag is undervalued if the pool of tags is selling out most years. I guarantee every sheep tag sold is undervalued. States are failing to properly price state assets! Why cap the auction at 1 tag per species or 1% or 10%? 100% or bust!
All of us that hunt in more than one state painfully know the non-resident fees often 10x resident fees. I concur this is harmful to the spriit of NAM by segregating residents of 49 states but as long as all the residents of the state are on equal standing for drawing a tag then so be it. I support state's rights to decide what is best within constitutional limits. If they want to limit non-resident draw success and charge 10x then that is their right.
Residents pay all sorts of taxes in their state compared to non-residents. That is the reason given for the 10x fee for non-resident hunters.
Why limit the higher fees to non-resident hunters?
Why not have the sales tax be 10x for all non-residents who are in your state? Why not charge 10x the state fuel tax on fuel to non-residents?
Apply this "special fairness fee" to all non-residents since they are not paying the level of taxes you do as a resident to use your county and city roads, hospitals, sidewalks, etc. Non-residents, including relatives and former residents and non-resident landowners, can just stay home if they do not like it.
The fee will be disbursed to residents. Residents vote. I predict landslides for politicians that tap into this previoulsy mismanaged revenue source.
"simple yes or no is all those questions will take."
I agree Gator, but do you think a lobbyist is going to be able to answer "any" question with a yes or no?, LOL!!! If he even comes back after the last post with the "untruths" that he posted it will be surprising. I guess I shouldn;t say that either because he'll find some way to come back and tell us those are all lies, etc. and how he is also unable to answer your question with a simple yes or no!
I agree Gator, but do you think a lobbyist is going to be able to answer "any" question with a yes or no?, LOL!!! If he even comes back after the last post with the "untruths" that he posted it will be surprising. I guess I shouldn;t say that either because he'll find some way to come back and tell us those are all lies, etc. and how he is also unable to answer your question with a simple yes or no!
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
>why don't you call me you
>POS and quite lying.
>i gave you my number
>via p.m.
billythekid,
Why do you need to PM me? What do you have to hide? Maybe your real name? Why didn't you list your real name on your profile?
Then you PM me:
*************************************************
"what a liar i am. call me anytime. shane rhoton... 928 699 0422. let's talk. obviously you have a lot to say but you like to bark publicly.
you didn't answer my other questions.
BTW, i live 2000 miles away from arizona. i don't guide. i won't hunt az. in the next several years unless i am lucky. i do have an opinion, albeit diff. from yours. i don't benefit in any way from this so called "tag grab." i respect all opinions but can't stand people that like to publicly, via an internet forum, bash, belittle, and slander other people which is what you, topgun, and a few others continually engage in b/c they share a different opinion. call me and we can have it out.
nice credentials, lol... i have a few of my own. sigh, i'll pat my own back."
**************************************************
Shane, You didn't need to PM me your real name because I already knew it. I think you know that. I also know you live in Alaska. And I know your brother is in deep with Mossback. Ya, the one's so adamanly supporting Arizona HB2072.
Shane, why do you SFW model supporters find it necessary to lie so much? Is it so hard to be honest?
As I've posted so many times on here before, the only big SFW supporters on MM are either self-admitted SFW employees, concealed SFW employees, or outfitters who have great financial gains to be had by "tag grabs" for their clients. They just don't want to admit it all comes down to personal greed.
Why am I not surprised you are just another one of them? And the truth comes out. True, it's just your brother, but give us a break! And he may be a great guy, but you see, I will not compromise my morals nor beliefs in the NAMWC like he does. So we will never be the same. Why on god's green earth would I want to phone you??? There are 2 sides to bills like AZ HB2072, and there is ZERO compromise. You either auction tags, or you don't. I don't believe in 500, nor 350, nor 100, nor 50, nor 10, nor 1. So if you bill pushers are seeking a compromise, it would never happen with me.
On many websites I know, you would be banned for lying about your real name on your profile.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
>POS and quite lying.
>i gave you my number
>via p.m.
billythekid,
Why do you need to PM me? What do you have to hide? Maybe your real name? Why didn't you list your real name on your profile?
Then you PM me:
*************************************************
"what a liar i am. call me anytime. shane rhoton... 928 699 0422. let's talk. obviously you have a lot to say but you like to bark publicly.
you didn't answer my other questions.
BTW, i live 2000 miles away from arizona. i don't guide. i won't hunt az. in the next several years unless i am lucky. i do have an opinion, albeit diff. from yours. i don't benefit in any way from this so called "tag grab." i respect all opinions but can't stand people that like to publicly, via an internet forum, bash, belittle, and slander other people which is what you, topgun, and a few others continually engage in b/c they share a different opinion. call me and we can have it out.
nice credentials, lol... i have a few of my own. sigh, i'll pat my own back."
**************************************************
Shane, You didn't need to PM me your real name because I already knew it. I think you know that. I also know you live in Alaska. And I know your brother is in deep with Mossback. Ya, the one's so adamanly supporting Arizona HB2072.
Shane, why do you SFW model supporters find it necessary to lie so much? Is it so hard to be honest?
As I've posted so many times on here before, the only big SFW supporters on MM are either self-admitted SFW employees, concealed SFW employees, or outfitters who have great financial gains to be had by "tag grabs" for their clients. They just don't want to admit it all comes down to personal greed.
Why am I not surprised you are just another one of them? And the truth comes out. True, it's just your brother, but give us a break! And he may be a great guy, but you see, I will not compromise my morals nor beliefs in the NAMWC like he does. So we will never be the same. Why on god's green earth would I want to phone you??? There are 2 sides to bills like AZ HB2072, and there is ZERO compromise. You either auction tags, or you don't. I don't believe in 500, nor 350, nor 100, nor 50, nor 10, nor 1. So if you bill pushers are seeking a compromise, it would never happen with me.
On many websites I know, you would be banned for lying about your real name on your profile.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-12 AT 04:30PM (MST)[p]Birdman, corndog, 338boy, billythekid, elkoholic...........
All concealed or fake profile names.
Why are there so few SFW lovers on here that actually post their real names??? What do you all have to hide?
I just browsed those against the SFW model half way up and got 10/11 what certainly appear to be real names and profiles.
I'm seeing a pattern.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
All concealed or fake profile names.
Why are there so few SFW lovers on here that actually post their real names??? What do you all have to hide?
I just browsed those against the SFW model half way up and got 10/11 what certainly appear to be real names and profiles.
I'm seeing a pattern.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
bonepicker
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,337
This is ridiculous! 100+ posts and in the end, we still don't have tag numbers from Zim, still no mention of which of the 7 principles is violated, still no compelling argument anywhere, just a bunch of red herrings: "what's your real name" "why do SFW supporters lie all the time" "you probably work for SFW" "you're from the East coast" "your mom only had 9 fingers" blahblahblah. None of this has anything to do with the discussion (and actually even the SFW discussion has very little relationship to the original topic) This whole thing is a waste if you guys don't actually deal with the facts and stick with the real issue.
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
Mike,
What tag numbers are you talking about?
What do these tag numbers have to do with the original topic?
If you go back to the top of this thread you'll see it was not I that changed the topic. I was personally attacked by the SFW toadies who did.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
What tag numbers are you talking about?
What do these tag numbers have to do with the original topic?
If you go back to the top of this thread you'll see it was not I that changed the topic. I was personally attacked by the SFW toadies who did.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
>Outfitter corndog, if you think
>I'm making a special trip
>out there to dig up
>regs from 15 years ago
>just for you, you are
>smokin dope. I'll find
>them if I have time
>after loading up for my
>turkey hunt Friday. One
>hell of a low priority
>digging up crap like that
>for a loser like you.
>
>
>You are barking up a sapling,
>trying to change the topic
>of the destruction of the
>NAMWC. Your toadie in
>WY is so drunk on
>SFW koolade & $$$ he
>is making himself look like
>a fool. Let it
>ride.
>
>Your toadie billythekid is about to
>get exposed for what he
>is.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
zim
# 1 I am not an outfitter have never been an outfitter and will probably never be an outfitter!!!
#2 your the one who brought up the 96 tag numbers!!!!
#3 i'm guessing you looked at the numbers ,realized that your full of crap and it wouldn't make the news in az. so now i'm a
loser!!
#4 zim you need some new material!!
hope you get your pauns tag so i can hang with a big deal from the big city and learn a few things.
>I'm making a special trip
>out there to dig up
>regs from 15 years ago
>just for you, you are
>smokin dope. I'll find
>them if I have time
>after loading up for my
>turkey hunt Friday. One
>hell of a low priority
>digging up crap like that
>for a loser like you.
>
>
>You are barking up a sapling,
>trying to change the topic
>of the destruction of the
>NAMWC. Your toadie in
>WY is so drunk on
>SFW koolade & $$$ he
>is making himself look like
>a fool. Let it
>ride.
>
>Your toadie billythekid is about to
>get exposed for what he
>is.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
zim
# 1 I am not an outfitter have never been an outfitter and will probably never be an outfitter!!!
#2 your the one who brought up the 96 tag numbers!!!!
#3 i'm guessing you looked at the numbers ,realized that your full of crap and it wouldn't make the news in az. so now i'm a
loser!!
#4 zim you need some new material!!
hope you get your pauns tag so i can hang with a big deal from the big city and learn a few things.
Tony
you know deer hunting in utah has sucked long before sfw, unless you where after a dink! you also know that most other species have improved overall? if sfw cannot claim the increase in tag numbers how can they be blamed for the decrease in deer tag numbers?
you know deer hunting in utah has sucked long before sfw, unless you where after a dink! you also know that most other species have improved overall? if sfw cannot claim the increase in tag numbers how can they be blamed for the decrease in deer tag numbers?
>Mike,
>
>What tag numbers are you talking
>about?
>
>What do these tag numbers have
>to do with the original
>topic?
>
>If you go back to the
>top of this thread you'll
>see it was not I
>that changed the topic.
>I was personally attacked by
>the SFW toadies who did.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
THE 96 TAG NUMBERS YOU BROUGHT UP YOU TOAD!!!
you want me to start a new thread on how full of $hit you are?
>
>What tag numbers are you talking
>about?
>
>What do these tag numbers have
>to do with the original
>topic?
>
>If you go back to the
>top of this thread you'll
>see it was not I
>that changed the topic.
>I was personally attacked by
>the SFW toadies who did.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
THE 96 TAG NUMBERS YOU BROUGHT UP YOU TOAD!!!
you want me to start a new thread on how full of $hit you are?
fishon
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,052
Actually Coondog deer hunting was better before SFW grew the elk herds and took all the sheep off the mountain. These 2 things are a MAJOR reasons for the declining deer populations.
Birdman
Cutting over 100,000 deer hunters (buck HUnters) has done NOTHING for the overall deer population. IT is proved that killing bucks doesn't matter for the overall health of a herd. So it is a sham and a scam to think cutting out buck hunters helps the herds. This is a proven biological fact.
Look att he Henry MOutnains, high buck to doe ratios and poor total deer numbers. The facts are there if you guys want to find them.
Yes, more archery hunters and less rifle hunters will allow MANY more hunting opportunities for both number of hunters and days that those hunters can spend in the field hunting.
SFW has been the leader in mule deer decline and suppression in Utah in my opinion based on them taking sheep off the mountain who graze and make better habitat for deer and by increasing the ever imposing elk herd the out competes the deer on summer and winter range and eats up to 4 times as much as a deer.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
Birdman
Cutting over 100,000 deer hunters (buck HUnters) has done NOTHING for the overall deer population. IT is proved that killing bucks doesn't matter for the overall health of a herd. So it is a sham and a scam to think cutting out buck hunters helps the herds. This is a proven biological fact.
Look att he Henry MOutnains, high buck to doe ratios and poor total deer numbers. The facts are there if you guys want to find them.
Yes, more archery hunters and less rifle hunters will allow MANY more hunting opportunities for both number of hunters and days that those hunters can spend in the field hunting.
SFW has been the leader in mule deer decline and suppression in Utah in my opinion based on them taking sheep off the mountain who graze and make better habitat for deer and by increasing the ever imposing elk herd the out competes the deer on summer and winter range and eats up to 4 times as much as a deer.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
First of all Tony, The biologists state that elk are grazers and that the deer are browsers. They eat different things as as main diet. Thus according to our biologists they do not compete against one another. There are still lots of sheep on the Manti and the elk are going down hill there. The deer started to deminish when they took 1080 off the market. That is when the coyotes started to increase. Now that is also according to the DWR reports. You can find that on line.
I was also at the big game board when SFW ask that the tags to be cut be changed to archery tags. I do not agree with your statement that tens of thousands of archery hunters could be added without hurting the deer numbers. And do you really think that we can kill many more bucks without hurting the deer herd. I heard our big game director say the same thing you have said. Now without the bucks there will be no fawns. And a buck can only get around to so many does. That is one reason that I believe we are having fawns born as late as August as the does are coming into season for several months and not getting bred. Then I only guess that those fawns that are born late have a harder time making it through the winter. That is just my opinion.
I did not know that SFW was to blame for taking the sheep off of the mountain. I do know that many sheepmen have gotten out of the business because it was not profitable. I know that SFW bought grazing permits on the Henry Mtns to increase the buffalo but know of no other place.
I think that the biggest reason that the deer population is going down is the predators. On the Henry Mountains there are tons of coyotes as well as bears. I am sure that you have been down there and seen the coyotes. I have killed many down there.
Thanks for your answers Tony. I helps me know how people think about all this. One quick question I ask before, do you really think that our deer herd could handle another 100,000 hunters out in the field trying to kill them?
I was also at the big game board when SFW ask that the tags to be cut be changed to archery tags. I do not agree with your statement that tens of thousands of archery hunters could be added without hurting the deer numbers. And do you really think that we can kill many more bucks without hurting the deer herd. I heard our big game director say the same thing you have said. Now without the bucks there will be no fawns. And a buck can only get around to so many does. That is one reason that I believe we are having fawns born as late as August as the does are coming into season for several months and not getting bred. Then I only guess that those fawns that are born late have a harder time making it through the winter. That is just my opinion.
I did not know that SFW was to blame for taking the sheep off of the mountain. I do know that many sheepmen have gotten out of the business because it was not profitable. I know that SFW bought grazing permits on the Henry Mtns to increase the buffalo but know of no other place.
I think that the biggest reason that the deer population is going down is the predators. On the Henry Mountains there are tons of coyotes as well as bears. I am sure that you have been down there and seen the coyotes. I have killed many down there.
Thanks for your answers Tony. I helps me know how people think about all this. One quick question I ask before, do you really think that our deer herd could handle another 100,000 hunters out in the field trying to kill them?
fishon
Very Active Member
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bIrdman
Elk are grazers and browser equally. The eat everything deer eat and eat a lot more of it. This is not an opinion this is a fact. SFW has bought countless grazing permits which take sheep off the mountain that eat grass and enhance browse growth, that is also a fact.
When Utah's deer herd was at its all time high there was nearly 1 million sheep in the state. This is also a fact and there was only about 5,000 elk again another fact.
10 bucks per 100 does is more than enough to breed EVERY doe, this is also a fact. The henry moutnains is proof that having 30-40 bucks per 100 does does not make a healthy deer herd. Coyotes are everywhere not just the henry mountains so that is a weak argument.
Birdman you dont want the truth, you only want what backs up your desires. I have seen sfw preach that they will save the deer herds for nearly 20 years and the herds are worse today then they were back then and SFW's actions are one of the main reasons in my opinion.
I traveled the west for nearly 5 years meeting with all the game agencies to get a better understanding of Mule deer. I am not some computer expert that drives his own agenda. I am a guy that gets dozens of emails a day of people tired of the kool aid being spread around.
And to answer your question about 100,000 more deer hunters. NO Utah probably could not handle that many, but with PROPER management and allocation of season dates and weapon types they could add 20-30,000 more and do so without a negative impact on the BUCKS.
Remember bucks dont have fawns does do. SFW is about TROPHY 1st in mine and thousands of others opinions, and their actions sure point that way as well.
Stop asking questions that you really dont want the answer to. Because like so many of you kool aid drinkers "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
Elk are grazers and browser equally. The eat everything deer eat and eat a lot more of it. This is not an opinion this is a fact. SFW has bought countless grazing permits which take sheep off the mountain that eat grass and enhance browse growth, that is also a fact.
When Utah's deer herd was at its all time high there was nearly 1 million sheep in the state. This is also a fact and there was only about 5,000 elk again another fact.
10 bucks per 100 does is more than enough to breed EVERY doe, this is also a fact. The henry moutnains is proof that having 30-40 bucks per 100 does does not make a healthy deer herd. Coyotes are everywhere not just the henry mountains so that is a weak argument.
Birdman you dont want the truth, you only want what backs up your desires. I have seen sfw preach that they will save the deer herds for nearly 20 years and the herds are worse today then they were back then and SFW's actions are one of the main reasons in my opinion.
I traveled the west for nearly 5 years meeting with all the game agencies to get a better understanding of Mule deer. I am not some computer expert that drives his own agenda. I am a guy that gets dozens of emails a day of people tired of the kool aid being spread around.
And to answer your question about 100,000 more deer hunters. NO Utah probably could not handle that many, but with PROPER management and allocation of season dates and weapon types they could add 20-30,000 more and do so without a negative impact on the BUCKS.
Remember bucks dont have fawns does do. SFW is about TROPHY 1st in mine and thousands of others opinions, and their actions sure point that way as well.
Stop asking questions that you really dont want the answer to. Because like so many of you kool aid drinkers "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
Tony, According to those in authority they say that Mule deer forage on conifers (especially Douglas-fir, cedar, Taxus yews, juniper), and twigs of deciduous trees and shrubs (esp. aspen, willow, dogwood, serviceberry, and sage). In season, they eat acorns and apples. Those same people say that Elk range in forest and forest-edge habitat, feeding on grasses, plants, leaves, and bark. Even the DWR say they do not compete much. Also USU state that there is enough habitat to handle 200,000 more animals in the state. Now SFW has admitted that what they have tried has not worked. Now they are trying something else. At least they are trying. I think that you are right with the proper management this state could handle 20 to 30 thousand more hunters. Problem is there has not been proper management.
If I did not want the answers to those questions I would not ask. If you could convince me otherwise I would go a different way. All I want to know is why people are saying the things that they do and want the understanding behind it. You are the one that seems not to be quoting someone else that said this or that but seem to know the most about what is going on. I will admit that I do not really understand your intentions in some of what you say but I am trying to learn. Take it for what you want. I have tried to look at all the different things that are being said and find out what is really going on.
If I did not want the answers to those questions I would not ask. If you could convince me otherwise I would go a different way. All I want to know is why people are saying the things that they do and want the understanding behind it. You are the one that seems not to be quoting someone else that said this or that but seem to know the most about what is going on. I will admit that I do not really understand your intentions in some of what you say but I am trying to learn. Take it for what you want. I have tried to look at all the different things that are being said and find out what is really going on.
This post reminds of the analogy of the bucket crabs or lobsters. Feeling a little under the weather so I thought I would take a shot at being a crustacean.
I believe it is true that 4 deer = 1 elk, that being said if there were only 5,000 elk a few years ago it is easy to see where the deer have gone. There are now over 60k of elk in the state which would equal at least 210,000 deer. I know this is very simplistic but it makes some sense.
Mule deer are an animal that responds well to disturbed forage so proper sheep grazing would have a positive affect on mule deer.
Sure predators take alot of deer, but if the window of predation was narrowed down by does fawning in a smaller window predation would be greatly reduced. How is this done? By having enough mature bucks in the herd to breed at a synchronized time. I don't believe that a 10:100 Buck to doe ratio is enough, unless they are all mature bucks.
One main staple for elk food is quaken aspen, if you will read the history of the Kaibab deer herd you will find that the loss of quaken aspen was a limiting factor for mule deer. Stands of aspens are decreasing West wide. We have been working hard on the winter range but has there been enough emphasis on our summer ranges?
Lastly,the North american wildlife model, The UDWR cannot claim to follow this:
Science is the Proper Tool for Discharge of Wildlife Policy
The law and regulation of people and wildlife derives from valid scientific research
We had to invent the science of wildlife biology to fulfill this need.
How can they say that they manage mule deer by biological science? Anyone can see that it is the most political species we have, I can give examples but shouldn't need to. I think the day will come when the whole thing flip flops and we start to hunt elk like mule deer and we hunt small limited numbers of deer, well maybe we are there already!
KLM
I believe it is true that 4 deer = 1 elk, that being said if there were only 5,000 elk a few years ago it is easy to see where the deer have gone. There are now over 60k of elk in the state which would equal at least 210,000 deer. I know this is very simplistic but it makes some sense.
Mule deer are an animal that responds well to disturbed forage so proper sheep grazing would have a positive affect on mule deer.
Sure predators take alot of deer, but if the window of predation was narrowed down by does fawning in a smaller window predation would be greatly reduced. How is this done? By having enough mature bucks in the herd to breed at a synchronized time. I don't believe that a 10:100 Buck to doe ratio is enough, unless they are all mature bucks.
One main staple for elk food is quaken aspen, if you will read the history of the Kaibab deer herd you will find that the loss of quaken aspen was a limiting factor for mule deer. Stands of aspens are decreasing West wide. We have been working hard on the winter range but has there been enough emphasis on our summer ranges?
Lastly,the North american wildlife model, The UDWR cannot claim to follow this:
Science is the Proper Tool for Discharge of Wildlife Policy
The law and regulation of people and wildlife derives from valid scientific research
We had to invent the science of wildlife biology to fulfill this need.
How can they say that they manage mule deer by biological science? Anyone can see that it is the most political species we have, I can give examples but shouldn't need to. I think the day will come when the whole thing flip flops and we start to hunt elk like mule deer and we hunt small limited numbers of deer, well maybe we are there already!
KLM
bonepicker
Very Active Member
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- 1,337
Ken,
I agree with you, the original topic was long ago lost, though it was addressed through the first few posts and you seemed to find the answer you were looking for.
Later, someone read your signature ("SFW Hate Club") and that brought up an entirely new discussion which at first was interesting, but soon became ridiculous when it was evident that no one was interested in dealing with the facts. The tag numbers were the ones from 1996 that you said you were going to provide for the discussion (which would seem to be helpful for your argument). This came from your question in post #17 "How many NR regular draw deer tags were available in 1996 pre-SFW, and how many this year?" Other things have been asked for by both sides. An example: post #45 you were asked by smokestack which of the seven principles of the North American Wildlife Model has SFW violated, to which you replied in post #46 "Smokestack,Please tell me you're joking". Not exactly a compelling answer. There has been a lot of poor debate by both sides.
Other states are watching this SFW issue with interest because we want to see whether SFW is another beneficial organization like the RMEF (that we want in our state) or if they are another money hungry bureaucracy that will waste our hard earned dollars (that we should fight to keep out of our state). I am interested in some answers but I am not finding them here.
I agree with you, the original topic was long ago lost, though it was addressed through the first few posts and you seemed to find the answer you were looking for.
Later, someone read your signature ("SFW Hate Club") and that brought up an entirely new discussion which at first was interesting, but soon became ridiculous when it was evident that no one was interested in dealing with the facts. The tag numbers were the ones from 1996 that you said you were going to provide for the discussion (which would seem to be helpful for your argument). This came from your question in post #17 "How many NR regular draw deer tags were available in 1996 pre-SFW, and how many this year?" Other things have been asked for by both sides. An example: post #45 you were asked by smokestack which of the seven principles of the North American Wildlife Model has SFW violated, to which you replied in post #46 "Smokestack,Please tell me you're joking". Not exactly a compelling answer. There has been a lot of poor debate by both sides.
Other states are watching this SFW issue with interest because we want to see whether SFW is another beneficial organization like the RMEF (that we want in our state) or if they are another money hungry bureaucracy that will waste our hard earned dollars (that we should fight to keep out of our state). I am interested in some answers but I am not finding them here.
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 01:04PM (MST)[p]bonepicker---I think the reason Zim answered Smokestick like he did is because we all know we are talking about the huge amount of tags that are taken away from nonresidents in the Utah pool that go to the raffle. Few NRs can travel to Utah to validate a raffle ticket in person as the law requires, so that makes a very unlevel playing field and is contrary to the NAM. Similarly, the NAM in #7 asks for fairness so that all people have equal access to animals on public property. Such is not the case when those other tags are bid on by upper echelon persons that can afford in the hundreds of thousands of dollars like a number of those tags go for. Saying that we all can bid on them is like saying we are all millionaires, LOL! Very few of the other organizations get more than a very small percentage of money from the very limited tags that states allocate to them and for the most part the money goes back on the ground. I believe that figures show that 92% of the total money that RMEF raises through membership fees and donations goes back out for worthwhile projects. To the contrary, SFW has hundreds of tags and a big chunk of them are set up so that they receive the $5 application fee, which amounts to anywhere from $750,000 to closing in on $1 million at each EXPO and none of that has to be accounted for or sent back to the state to benefit the resource that those tags were designed for. If we could get good tax records for Don Peay and Suzanne Gilstrap alone, I believe we would see that they are the two main persons that have made those hundreds of thousands of dollars in consulting and lobbying fees showing in the limited paperwork we have had access to and that has been posted on this website. That is the whole problem with them being able to file as a 501 C tax free charity because the rules are loose enough that all they ned to show is that they aren't making a profit. That should be easy to do when they spend the amounts of money they appear to for what I just mentioned. Doesn't it smell a little fishy that the group will not open up their books to the public for a full review as has been asked for the last couple years. Don Peay has even asked Randy Newberg to sign a nondisclosure statement before they allow him to look at any of their books as this debate date draws near, full well knowing that Randy, as a CPA, would never go back on his oath as a person in that business to tell what he finds. Peculiar to say the least and rotten to most of us when we found out about that prequisite issed by Don.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
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- 3,022
TOPGUN-
Just to be clear, Don Peay did not ask Randy Newberg to sign a NDA as a prerequisite to reviewing SFW's financials. Rather, Randy voluntarily offered to do so in an effort to alleviate whatever concerns SFW might have regarding such a disclosure. Randy is still following up with SFW, and time will tell how SFW responds. I agree with you that non-profit organizations should make their financial statements public if they have nothing to hide but I wanted to make everyone understands that Don did not make this demand.
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
Just to be clear, Don Peay did not ask Randy Newberg to sign a NDA as a prerequisite to reviewing SFW's financials. Rather, Randy voluntarily offered to do so in an effort to alleviate whatever concerns SFW might have regarding such a disclosure. Randy is still following up with SFW, and time will tell how SFW responds. I agree with you that non-profit organizations should make their financial statements public if they have nothing to hide but I wanted to make everyone understands that Don did not make this demand.
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
Topgun, You and others post things that are not totally true but spin it so it looks bad for SFW. That is wrong. But then again, you do it because you hate SFW so bad. You really have no idea how things work out here and what the truth really is. But then you really do not want to know the truth. You talk about the money $5 that comes from the tags at the expo as being $750,000 to a million. That part is true. You also know that the money is divided between SFW and MDF. Part of the time it was split three ways when FNAS was involved. There is a lot of that money that is used for wildlife. That is a fact. SFW has stated where some of that money is going. That is also the money that well be used to transplant the deer. It may be true that the tag money can be used for what they want, I do not know but I do know that they use it for wildlife. You continue to bring Suzanne Gilstrap into SFW and being a lobbiest for the Utah group. She is not and has never been. Arizona SFW started before 2005. There has been a document drawn up that seperates the too programs stating that they have never had anything to do with each other. You can find that on the net. Gilstrap lobbys for Arizona. If you really wanted to know the truth you would have looked it up. But then again if you did you would not believe it. Just like fishon that puts out partial truths but not complete truths so that you wonder what is going on. Will the truth is there for those that want to see it but I am sure that you and Zim have no intention of searching for the truth. Takes away from what you are doing and what you are saying. But then again, Hope that you have a great day.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
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- 3,022
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 03:27PM (MST)[p]Birdman-
Don't get too carried away in your lecture on truth. I have no bone to pick with you but from what I have seen from your prior posts you don't know what you are talking about half of the time. The fact of the matter is that you (like the rest of us) have no clue how SFW or MDF is spending the money generated from the convention permits. I don't care if the State of Utah is complicit in this problem or not. It is not right. Those tags are a public resource and SFW and MDF should voluntarily provide a public accounting for the monies generated therefrom. Plus, Don Peay lobbied against any requirement that a set percentage of those monies be used for actual conservation. You might ask yourself why SFW would oppose such a requirement? As it stands right now, those tags are nothing more than a massive slush fund for those groups to spend on whatever they please. What I have said is not spin. It is fact. Follow your own advice and do some research and you will see for yourself.
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
Don't get too carried away in your lecture on truth. I have no bone to pick with you but from what I have seen from your prior posts you don't know what you are talking about half of the time. The fact of the matter is that you (like the rest of us) have no clue how SFW or MDF is spending the money generated from the convention permits. I don't care if the State of Utah is complicit in this problem or not. It is not right. Those tags are a public resource and SFW and MDF should voluntarily provide a public accounting for the monies generated therefrom. Plus, Don Peay lobbied against any requirement that a set percentage of those monies be used for actual conservation. You might ask yourself why SFW would oppose such a requirement? As it stands right now, those tags are nothing more than a massive slush fund for those groups to spend on whatever they please. What I have said is not spin. It is fact. Follow your own advice and do some research and you will see for yourself.
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
Hawkeye, Thanks for the post. You are right, I don't have first hand experience how that money is being spent. I do have some inside on what goes on. I would believe SFW and what Troy is saying before I would believe something from so and so who heard it from so and so whose cousin said etc. In other words before I believed some of what is said on MM.
As for the AZSFW there IS a form that shows that they and Ut SFW have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Never have. Yet I continue to hear on MM that they are the same organization and DP set it up and was part of the tag grab. I know they were not. I also know that they did not support it. I keep hearing about Susanne Gilstrap lobbies for Utah SFW. She does not and never has. That is also true. Yes I know that for a fact. I listen to Fishon start saying something and only does part which makes people think there is something not right. The part said was true to a point, however if finished it would have cleared up things. I know that there are many who do not like SFW and that if fine. They can say what they want about SFW but they really need to tell the truth. If they are not going to tell the truth then they should be quiet.
Now you have a good day and good luck with the draws. Instead of fighting with one another we should be working together to get things done.
As for the AZSFW there IS a form that shows that they and Ut SFW have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Never have. Yet I continue to hear on MM that they are the same organization and DP set it up and was part of the tag grab. I know they were not. I also know that they did not support it. I keep hearing about Susanne Gilstrap lobbies for Utah SFW. She does not and never has. That is also true. Yes I know that for a fact. I listen to Fishon start saying something and only does part which makes people think there is something not right. The part said was true to a point, however if finished it would have cleared up things. I know that there are many who do not like SFW and that if fine. They can say what they want about SFW but they really need to tell the truth. If they are not going to tell the truth then they should be quiet.
Now you have a good day and good luck with the draws. Instead of fighting with one another we should be working together to get things done.
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 09:28PM (MST)[p]
Hawkeye---Thanks for the clarification and I apologize to everyone for making that error and mistatement! PLease rest assured that it was not intentional! I have searched and found where BigFin mentioned the request for records and now see that he made the offer to sign the NDA and that it was not suggested or required that he do so by Don. Sorry!
Birdman---How many times do people have to tell you that we know that the Arizona SFW is set up separate from the Utah group? They are all separate entities ON PAPER, but that doesn't mean that they aren't following one leader! At least one person who was involved with the AZSFW in it's initial set up has publicly stated that Don Peay got Suzanne G. and Pete C. to set up the group and get it going. Yes, I know that Suzanne is openly lobbying for the AZ group, but where is all the money coming from to pay her costs for all that lobbying? The AZ group doesn't appear to be making enough money in membership fees to pay for the many hours she is spending on SFW issues, so I will ask you if you know where the source of the money is coming from to pay her? If the books were opened for public scrutiny like they should have been from day one, the crapolla that is going on right now would have probably been stopped in it's infancy and we wouldn't be debating these issues! I will tell you again because you just don't seem to get this either. We have no problem with the rank and file persons of SFW like yourself that are doing what they can with the money they are being given. The problem is that there is a ton of money going for salaries, consultant fees, and lobbying fees and you know darn well just like we all do who is getting the bulkof that money! What do you think payed for that big custom log home in Bountiful owned by the SFW leader? One last question for you please, if you don't mind. You say you will believe Troy over anyone else in this debate. I guess that is logical since he is the SFW spokesperson for the most part on these Forums, so is that the only reason you believe what he says, regardless of what it is?
Hawkeye---Thanks for the clarification and I apologize to everyone for making that error and mistatement! PLease rest assured that it was not intentional! I have searched and found where BigFin mentioned the request for records and now see that he made the offer to sign the NDA and that it was not suggested or required that he do so by Don. Sorry!
Birdman---How many times do people have to tell you that we know that the Arizona SFW is set up separate from the Utah group? They are all separate entities ON PAPER, but that doesn't mean that they aren't following one leader! At least one person who was involved with the AZSFW in it's initial set up has publicly stated that Don Peay got Suzanne G. and Pete C. to set up the group and get it going. Yes, I know that Suzanne is openly lobbying for the AZ group, but where is all the money coming from to pay her costs for all that lobbying? The AZ group doesn't appear to be making enough money in membership fees to pay for the many hours she is spending on SFW issues, so I will ask you if you know where the source of the money is coming from to pay her? If the books were opened for public scrutiny like they should have been from day one, the crapolla that is going on right now would have probably been stopped in it's infancy and we wouldn't be debating these issues! I will tell you again because you just don't seem to get this either. We have no problem with the rank and file persons of SFW like yourself that are doing what they can with the money they are being given. The problem is that there is a ton of money going for salaries, consultant fees, and lobbying fees and you know darn well just like we all do who is getting the bulkof that money! What do you think payed for that big custom log home in Bountiful owned by the SFW leader? One last question for you please, if you don't mind. You say you will believe Troy over anyone else in this debate. I guess that is logical since he is the SFW spokesperson for the most part on these Forums, so is that the only reason you believe what he says, regardless of what it is?
fishon
Very Active Member
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- 1,052
So Birdman
You will believe me then when I tell you what the expo tags were created for and what was PROMISED they would be spent on? You see unlike Troy and anyone else other then DON I traveled the ENTIRE state several times to ALL the rac meetings and wildlife board meetings. In fact I covered the Vernal Rac and Don did not even show.
You see I KNOW the money is not being used like it was promised and said it would be. I know this because I was one of the guys who made the deal.
The expo tags in not something you or anyone other than DOn and I can speak to as fact. Do you see Don on here saying what I am saying is not the truth? That should tell you something bro.....
FYI... ELK eat plenty of browse, you need to stop getting your info from the internet and go out in the field and witness it 1st hand.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
You will believe me then when I tell you what the expo tags were created for and what was PROMISED they would be spent on? You see unlike Troy and anyone else other then DON I traveled the ENTIRE state several times to ALL the rac meetings and wildlife board meetings. In fact I covered the Vernal Rac and Don did not even show.
You see I KNOW the money is not being used like it was promised and said it would be. I know this because I was one of the guys who made the deal.
The expo tags in not something you or anyone other than DOn and I can speak to as fact. Do you see Don on here saying what I am saying is not the truth? That should tell you something bro.....
FYI... ELK eat plenty of browse, you need to stop getting your info from the internet and go out in the field and witness it 1st hand.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
fishon
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,052
THe money generated was to be spent in Utah on the ground for wildlife benefit. Not for cancer patients, Wyoming causes, trust funds or anything else not UTAH wildlife related.
Go read their own posted breakdown of some of the money spent and you will see things in a different light.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
Go read their own posted breakdown of some of the money spent and you will see things in a different light.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
True Tony that money gets spent on cancer patients, hunts for our Vets, and so on but that money could also come from the banquets and donations. Just because they spend money on those things it does not mean that the money came from the tag money. I am sorry that you do not believe in spending money on hunts for kids that have cancer or other life ending illness's. I know that those kids love to be able to hunt and will never be able to so SFW takes the time to make their wish come true. And to see the joy that it brings to them is unbelievable. Sorry that things like that do not meet with your approval.
Birdman--Your last post is a good example of why people get pissed at you! Nowhere in the post by fishon did he say that he didn't believe in spending money on those things. He stated that is not what the tag money was to be spent on and seeing as how there are no open books to look at or breakdown of how the money was spent, there is no way either of you can say for sure where the money came from that was spent on that stuff. Transparency, how much is made and where it went is a BIG part of this debate and in a nutshell you just don't seem to get it!!!
fishon
Very Active Member
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I can say for sure that according to their own post they spent EXPO tag money on things other then the money was intended for. Also They have still not given a full accounting of that money generated.
Keep drinking Birdman, you certainly drink blindly.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
Keep drinking Birdman, you certainly drink blindly.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
I believe that Troy put the amount that was generated on MM. They have also given the odds of the tags and how many applications went in on those tags. Now if there is a problem you take the total number of aps and times by $5. I also believe that some did not believe what as put out there because it did not match what they thought that it should be.
Deerlove, SFW Utah was not supporting the azSFW so called tag grab and they have nothing to do with AZSFW. Total different type of organization. It has nothing to do with Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife. NOTHING. I know hard to believe but it is true.
Deerlove, SFW Utah was not supporting the azSFW so called tag grab and they have nothing to do with AZSFW. Total different type of organization. It has nothing to do with Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife. NOTHING. I know hard to believe but it is true.
fishon
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,052
Touche Michael
They would be upfront and open if they were doing things they way they were intended. They would be beating their chests saying look at us, we are great, we put millions on the ground for wildlife.
But apparently they do not want to disclose it all and certainly none of them have the stones to debate me on it.
I would even take a 3 hour tour if they wanted to discuss in open the expo tag revenue and expenditures.
But it will never happen because it would be exposed for what it is...... The GREATEST welfare program Utah has EVER seen with ZERO required accountability.
Birdman, please stop wasting our time with you irrelevant rants and continued defense of things you have no KNOWLEDGE to be representing.
Oh and I am gonna go back to my post a couple months ago that said unless you make your true self known I will not respond to you any longer. I am tired of the kool aid drinkers hiding behind a screen.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
They would be upfront and open if they were doing things they way they were intended. They would be beating their chests saying look at us, we are great, we put millions on the ground for wildlife.
But apparently they do not want to disclose it all and certainly none of them have the stones to debate me on it.
I would even take a 3 hour tour if they wanted to discuss in open the expo tag revenue and expenditures.
But it will never happen because it would be exposed for what it is...... The GREATEST welfare program Utah has EVER seen with ZERO required accountability.
Birdman, please stop wasting our time with you irrelevant rants and continued defense of things you have no KNOWLEDGE to be representing.
Oh and I am gonna go back to my post a couple months ago that said unless you make your true self known I will not respond to you any longer. I am tired of the kool aid drinkers hiding behind a screen.
Tony Abbott
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-12 AT 09:13PM (MST)[p]Birdman---Why don't you just put this statement from your last post in your signature/tagline so you don't have to keep typing it over and over, LOL:
"SFW Utah was not supporting the azSFW so called tag grab and they have nothing to do with AZSFW. Total different type of organization. It has nothing to do with Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife. NOTHING. I know hard to believe but it is true.
*** That last response of yours was mere conjecture on your part again and not based on fact. Get your SFW organization to open their books so we can see each line item for what money went in, what money went out, and where it went. Stating what you did about "look this number up in this post and then multiply by $5" is not the way you properly account for things in an organization! You are trying to do a good job of helping your group, but in actuality if you were on the outside looking in like we are you would see that you're really a detriment to their cause when you are just guessing at everything and then keep saying we don't know what we're talking about as a big part of your defense! This is not to demean you because I know you have a good heart and want what we do, but please sit back a while and think hard about why SFW won't open it's books. The answer is really easy if you would just look at that one aspect of your organization that is really a glaring negative!
"SFW Utah was not supporting the azSFW so called tag grab and they have nothing to do with AZSFW. Total different type of organization. It has nothing to do with Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife. NOTHING. I know hard to believe but it is true.
*** That last response of yours was mere conjecture on your part again and not based on fact. Get your SFW organization to open their books so we can see each line item for what money went in, what money went out, and where it went. Stating what you did about "look this number up in this post and then multiply by $5" is not the way you properly account for things in an organization! You are trying to do a good job of helping your group, but in actuality if you were on the outside looking in like we are you would see that you're really a detriment to their cause when you are just guessing at everything and then keep saying we don't know what we're talking about as a big part of your defense! This is not to demean you because I know you have a good heart and want what we do, but please sit back a while and think hard about why SFW won't open it's books. The answer is really easy if you would just look at that one aspect of your organization that is really a glaring negative!
Topgun, You are right that I do not come accross the way I want to. I am just an average joe. You continue to state that my stagement about AZSFW not being part of Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife as not being based on fact. Will I will say the same thing to you. Where do you come up with the bases that it is fact. There is no fact that they are the same organization. They have never had anything to do with one another. NEVER. Other than the initials of SFW they are not tied together. Never have been. You have no FACT that they are the same organization. None at all. Just a guess.
LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-12 AT 07:06AM (MST)[p]Birdman---I don't know how we can say it any clearer than we have already. It IS a different organization on paper. There is no denying that, so we have agreed with you for quite a while after we dealved into the group. It was set up differently and IS NOT a Chapter of the Utah SFW. Therefore, you have won that part of the debate! However, people involved in the creation of the AZ organization have stated that Don was instrumental in getting Suzanne G. and Pete C. to set it up and run it. Look at their organizational chart and see who is still on it. She is their main lobbyist and was doing all she could to get that tag grab bill passed in AZ and then went to the Office of the Governor to get it back on track to try and push it through even after the groundswell effort by us common folks to get it squashed was successful. She packed her bags and left the Capitol after Zim was able to get an investigative reporter to do an expose on the SFW group. Are you saying that people who openly state that they were involved in setting it up with Don's help are liars and none of this happened?
LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-12 AT 10:00AM (MST)[p]Topgun, I know that those that say SFW gave them money to get set up AZSFW is not true. I know that there as been a lot of accusations that are not true. I do know that lots that is being said could be someone dreaming things up. I know that only one person is saying that there was an agreement as to how the money was to be spent from the expo. Is he telling the truth. Everyone seems to believe him. Just one person statement. I know from attending the meetings were the audits have been talked about that SFW has done everything that was agreed upon by the State. Now if something else was agreed upon would not the State be saying something about it. I know that if groups do not do what they are suppose to do with the money that they are no longer involved with the programs. I would have to say that SFW is doing everything that they agreed upon or they would not be getting the support of the State.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,022
Birdman-
Have you read the statute creating the convention permits? It list two express purposes for those permits: (1) to "generate revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities"; and (2) to "attract a regional or national wildlife convention to Utah." See Utah Admin. Code R657-55-1. Is the first statutory purpose for these tags being fulfilled? You don't know the answer to this question. I don't know. The State of Utah does not know. The DWR does not know. The Wildlife Board does not know. Nobody knows except SFW and MDF, and they refuse to open their books. IF SFW and MDF were truly spending these revenues as envisioned by the statute, don't you think that they would be chomping at the bit to show everyone?
Nobody is auditing these groups to see if the revenue generated from these tags is actually spent on "wildlife conservation activities." SFW lobbied against any statutory requirement that monies be used for actual conservation. What more do you need to know? There is no oversight or accounting required by the state or the DWR.
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
Have you read the statute creating the convention permits? It list two express purposes for those permits: (1) to "generate revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities"; and (2) to "attract a regional or national wildlife convention to Utah." See Utah Admin. Code R657-55-1. Is the first statutory purpose for these tags being fulfilled? You don't know the answer to this question. I don't know. The State of Utah does not know. The DWR does not know. The Wildlife Board does not know. Nobody knows except SFW and MDF, and they refuse to open their books. IF SFW and MDF were truly spending these revenues as envisioned by the statute, don't you think that they would be chomping at the bit to show everyone?
Nobody is auditing these groups to see if the revenue generated from these tags is actually spent on "wildlife conservation activities." SFW lobbied against any statutory requirement that monies be used for actual conservation. What more do you need to know? There is no oversight or accounting required by the state or the DWR.
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-12 AT 12:06PM (MST)[p]Geez Louise, Birdman! Don't you try to digest what we post here before you come back with more responses? You were just told for the umpteenth time that there is nothing in place to do what you are saying we should do to prove the money is going where it should. That was at the basic demand of Don Peay himself when he and Tony set the system up years ago. For some reason the DWR allowed it to go through and continues to allow it even with all this uproar going on. They do not have to show where one red cent of the money went for the tags they are getting money for that we are talking about, which is completely opposite of the other tags where there is accountability and where they have to show that all the money is going where it was agreed upon--on the ground! As long as the DWR appears to answer to the SFW the way the SFW has apparently become so entrenched out there with the Game Board and various influential politicians they appear to have in their pockets, I doubt that anything will change. That's why I can't get too excited about Utah, but am when it comes to this type of garbage spreading to other states where I might wish to hunt in the future like AZ! For the last time, why doesn't SFW come clean and show their books so everyone can see what should be out and easily viewed by a 501C organization? We all know the answer and you should too unless you just don't want to admit you're wrong and want to keep prolonging this discussion to eternity! If they have nothing to hide, then open the friggin books so it's not a Troy says against a Tony says deal like it is right now!!! The solution is so simple that anyone, including yourself, should be able to see why the books are closed. Just the litle bit we have been able to see on tax reports shows that there is a bunch of money lumped under Misc. and other various lines instead of actual expenditures. However, they are within the loose guidelines of the tax code and are playing that for what it's worth too! It's absolutely sickening that a public resource (tags and the fee SFW gets)is being stolen right out before everyone's eyes and that's exactly what we are talking about in this whole deal.
Zim
you brought up the 96 tag numbers!! I'll go out to the garage and get them!! I said let's see-em. ( little kintuky lingo).
you said. I'll get to it when i get done turkey hunting.something about me being a loser. guess if you can't make the news in arizona your to busy to deal with actual numbers? sure do hope you get that paunsy tag!!would love to hunt with you down there !
you brought up the 96 tag numbers!! I'll go out to the garage and get them!! I said let's see-em. ( little kintuky lingo).
you said. I'll get to it when i get done turkey hunting.something about me being a loser. guess if you can't make the news in arizona your to busy to deal with actual numbers? sure do hope you get that paunsy tag!!would love to hunt with you down there !
Outdoors
Member
- Messages
- 15
AZSFW...quack quack welfare tags. Quack quack Expo. Lobbyist. Political appointees. Step up and bid for this primo tag lifted from the nonresident pool. Divisive lightening rod within the hunting community. You can trust us, we will never ask for tags.
UTSFW...quack quack welfare tags. Quack quack Expo. Lobbyist. Political appointees. Step up and bid for this primo tag lifted from the nonresident pool. Divisive lightening rod within the hunting community. You can trust us, we will promptly release tag odds.
Hmmm...other than that they are nothing alike. Quack quack.
UTSFW...quack quack welfare tags. Quack quack Expo. Lobbyist. Political appointees. Step up and bid for this primo tag lifted from the nonresident pool. Divisive lightening rod within the hunting community. You can trust us, we will promptly release tag odds.
Hmmm...other than that they are nothing alike. Quack quack.
LAST EDITED ON Apr-27-12 AT 07:37AM (MST)[p]coondog---You know exactly what money we're talking about and it isn't the license fee! It's the $750,000 to $1,000,000 they rake in every year at the Expo from those $5 application fees the organization gets per ticket that don't have to be accounted for. That's just a little more than loose change and nobody will, or can, show where it goes because the way Don got the thing written up they don't have to. Sure must be nice to rake in all of those "consultant" and "lobbying" fees like he and some of the others do to build big custom log homes on Utah winter range on the public dime! Have fun, as I'm gone until Monday to mentor kids on their turkey hunts!
ELKOHOLIC
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,375
Zim, Please tell me how I got lumped in with SFW (post 115). Go ahead and do a search while your at it of my prior post. You won't find anything to back your claims up. And whats a fake screen name? Aren't they all fake? ELKOHOLIC is not my real name after all.
Outdoors
Member
- Messages
- 15
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-27-12
>AT 07:37?AM (MST)
>
>coondog---You know exactly what money we're
>talking about and it isn't
>the license fee! It's
>the $750,000 to $1,000,000 they
>rake in every year at
>the Expo from those $5
>application fees the organization gets
>per ticket that don't have
>to be accounted for.
>That's just a little more
>than loose change and nobody
>will, or can, show where
>it goes because the way
>Don got the thing written
>up they don't have to.
> Sure must be nice
>to rake in all of
>those "consultant" and "lobbying" fees
>like he and some of
>the others do to build
>big custom log homes on
>Utah winter range on the
>public dime! Have fun,
>as I'm gone until Monday
>to mentor kids on their
>turkey hunts!
No way a true sportsman builds a house where screws up the mule deer migration or winter range. No way. Are you sure Don did that? Does he get a pass as part of the cult of SFW or will some of the devout scratch their head once or twice if Don did viloate the winter range? Amazing. Do as I say but not as I do. Again.
>AT 07:37?AM (MST)
>
>coondog---You know exactly what money we're
>talking about and it isn't
>the license fee! It's
>the $750,000 to $1,000,000 they
>rake in every year at
>the Expo from those $5
>application fees the organization gets
>per ticket that don't have
>to be accounted for.
>That's just a little more
>than loose change and nobody
>will, or can, show where
>it goes because the way
>Don got the thing written
>up they don't have to.
> Sure must be nice
>to rake in all of
>those "consultant" and "lobbying" fees
>like he and some of
>the others do to build
>big custom log homes on
>Utah winter range on the
>public dime! Have fun,
>as I'm gone until Monday
>to mentor kids on their
>turkey hunts!
No way a true sportsman builds a house where screws up the mule deer migration or winter range. No way. Are you sure Don did that? Does he get a pass as part of the cult of SFW or will some of the devout scratch their head once or twice if Don did viloate the winter range? Amazing. Do as I say but not as I do. Again.
>I am gone turkey hunting.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
Zim
when you get done chokin that turk get those 96 tag numbers, I can't seem to find them on my puter. Plus if you post them people will believe the numbers.thanks in advance for your response.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
Zim
when you get done chokin that turk get those 96 tag numbers, I can't seem to find them on my puter. Plus if you post them people will believe the numbers.thanks in advance for your response.
LAST EDITED ON May-01-12 AT 12:18PM (MST)[p]Hey Gator! What did I tell you about getting an answer to your questions from Smokestick! It's been at least a week now, so I guess after the quotes (facts) were put up by myself showing he lied, he has dropped this thread like a hot potato, but he's posted on others, LOL! He's just a super guy to be leading a SFW State Chapter and would never lie because he's a lobbyist and lying is the death of a good lobbyist! Just ask him! Yea, right!!!
Hey Smokestick or WyoBob or whatever name you want to go by this week! We are still waiting for legitimate, honest, intelligible answers to those questions asked of you over a week ago. If you do come back, please don't lie and say you haven't been reading this thread while you've been logged on more than once since they were asked!
Hey Smokestick or WyoBob or whatever name you want to go by this week! We are still waiting for legitimate, honest, intelligible answers to those questions asked of you over a week ago. If you do come back, please don't lie and say you haven't been reading this thread while you've been logged on more than once since they were asked!
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
Hey TOPGUN,
Thanks for identifying the post with questions I am suppose to answer. Go back and read my post in the Wyoming section. Really read it this time, don't look for pictures because there aren't any. You actually need to read the words. Maybe get out a dictionary as well.
I have other things far more important than surfing the net. (Sorry Brian)
While you are calling people out on the net, how about Zim. I am still waiting for him to answer my question. Or do you just police the SFW posters?
Thanks for identifying the post with questions I am suppose to answer. Go back and read my post in the Wyoming section. Really read it this time, don't look for pictures because there aren't any. You actually need to read the words. Maybe get out a dictionary as well.
I have other things far more important than surfing the net. (Sorry Brian)
While you are calling people out on the net, how about Zim. I am still waiting for him to answer my question. Or do you just police the SFW posters?
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
>when you get done chokin that
>turk get those 96 tag
>numbers, I can't seem to
>find them on my puter.
>Plus if you post them
>people will believe the numbers.thanks
>in advance for your response.
Just loaded gear between hunts. Dug out the old proclamations I found still in mint condition, 1997 not 96. Not sure why ur so anal with 25 posts about this, when the result is so obvious, and confirms what I said. The 97 Pauns NR archery had 6 tags. So it went from 6 to 2.
So according to Don Peay's doctrine, by auctioning away our tags the resulting money will result in big fund raising, big improvements, and in the end........more opportunity, more tags. I would think 15 years is adequate time for his grand vision to materialize. I know his wallet sure has expanded in those 15 years.
OK, now I am not great at math. However, the last time I checked 6 is 3 times as many as 2. Correct me if wrong, but I believe 1997 was the year SFW first infected Utah. So under 15 years of their revolutionary master plan, all the big money lobbying, endless habitat improvement projects, and huge consultant fee investment, this chemical engineering mastermind reduced my opportunity by 66% ?
Can some SFW outfitter please put a spin on this number and explain to us that 2 is more than 6?
Nice to know that there could be as many as 9 auction/expo folks cutting in line for this hunt, compared to 2 true sportsmen.
*********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
>turk get those 96 tag
>numbers, I can't seem to
>find them on my puter.
>Plus if you post them
>people will believe the numbers.thanks
>in advance for your response.
Just loaded gear between hunts. Dug out the old proclamations I found still in mint condition, 1997 not 96. Not sure why ur so anal with 25 posts about this, when the result is so obvious, and confirms what I said. The 97 Pauns NR archery had 6 tags. So it went from 6 to 2.
So according to Don Peay's doctrine, by auctioning away our tags the resulting money will result in big fund raising, big improvements, and in the end........more opportunity, more tags. I would think 15 years is adequate time for his grand vision to materialize. I know his wallet sure has expanded in those 15 years.
OK, now I am not great at math. However, the last time I checked 6 is 3 times as many as 2. Correct me if wrong, but I believe 1997 was the year SFW first infected Utah. So under 15 years of their revolutionary master plan, all the big money lobbying, endless habitat improvement projects, and huge consultant fee investment, this chemical engineering mastermind reduced my opportunity by 66% ?
Can some SFW outfitter please put a spin on this number and explain to us that 2 is more than 6?
Nice to know that there could be as many as 9 auction/expo folks cutting in line for this hunt, compared to 2 true sportsmen.
*********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
fin little
Active Member
- Messages
- 763
Zim, around 04 the tags for all the Pauns public hunts were cut in half. That included resident and nonresident tags. It was supported by anyone that cared about the quality of the bucks on the premium limited entry unit the Pauns is managed as. It was supported by SFW also. The unit is what it is now in large part to those cuts. The CWMU and the landowners also took cuts. You will have a quality archery hunt due at least in part to those tag cuts. I just wanted to explain the difference in nonresident pauns archery tag numbers from 96 to 2012. I dont support SFW and dont want to fight about them either.
Thanks fin little! It's nice to get an honest answer instead of the beating around the bush like Bob just did again. Bob knew darn well what thread I was talking about, then came on it here and "smoked" us again with no answer and the "he's too busy BS" every time the going gets a little rough. I have no idea what question he's talking about for Zim that hasn't been answered, but Zim is pretty upfront and responds when things come up that he's interested in, just like I do.
O
OttercreekKid
Guest
Ya Topgun you and Zim are like peas in a pod.
OCK---At least Zim and I are fighting for a worthwhile cause and you know where we stand, unlike the friggin circle jerking you get every time one of you SFW lovers, especially Bob, comes on the Forums, LOL! Smokestick aka WyoBob aka Bob Wharff came right out and stated on the site last week that the NAM has nothing to do with fairness. Are you friggin kidding me? The whole basis of the NAM is that everyone is equal and everything involving wildlife should be done on a fair basis so that all have the same opportunity and not some wealthy SOB that can buy a tag costing 6 digits every year and bypass the average guy waiting in line at a chance to draw that one tag in his lifetime! Add that to the fact that all those $5 entry/handling fees per ticket sold only on site at the Expo that total 3/4 to 1 million dollars a year can be used for anything the organization wants, whether it be salaries, consultant fees, lobbyist fees, etc. with no requirement to show where it goes is ludicrous. It's a public resource OCK!!! Then the SFW brags about the money they "donated" with the auction tag money like that's a big deal when it's required by law and they have to account for it because it isn't theirs in the first place, but rather the taxpayers. You go right on loving your group and we'll go right on fighting to see that that crap doesn't go any further than Utah.
billythekid
Active Member
- Messages
- 435
yuck, zim is fighting most this battle during work hrs. where he is paid by the "public" with hard earned tax dollars. look at the record. it's all there. don't see how zim is more a saint. he just has a lot more time than others to sit on the internet as an SFW hater and bring them down from the top down... oh, did i say that a big chunk of his time fighting this battle is paid for by tax dollars. yes, yours and mine. a great "public" servant. glad to hear our public servants are so well trained in internet chat forums and how to use them to get gain while on the publics dollar. what a great public servant. i am sure if several people had more time, public servants or private sector guys, they would do more research and participate in these debates.
this reminds me of BARAK using hard earned tax dollars to make the lime lite and play politics... what a joke.
this reminds me of BARAK using hard earned tax dollars to make the lime lite and play politics... what a joke.
O
OttercreekKid
Guest
Top, I Feel alot of jealousy in your comments. The list is long in those you feel inferior to. I'm sorry you haven't made the right life choices to make the kind of money it takes to buy yourself a ONCE IN A LIFETIME tag. The sad thing is, if you could, you would be on the other side of this discussion. If I had all the money I needed I would pay whatever it took for the hunts I wanted. As far as the Expo Fee I think Troy explained it well, it just wasn't what you wanted to hear. Why not find another state to hunt in if you don't like the system our state chooses to follow?
Outdoors
Member
- Messages
- 15
I will speak with Founder to see if he will begin charging $100 a post. Sorry if some of you made the wrong life choices like the average joe hunter who does not deserve a shot at a chunk of the cream of the crop big game tags since they can not spend $100K for a tag...likewise, some of you do not deserve a shot at having your voice heard here if you can not write big checks.
SFW has shown the way and if you do not have fat checkbooks then you do not deserve a voice. Deal with it.
Did anyone verify if Don built a home in the winter range? Good for him if he did. Stewardship is over rated.
SFW has shown the way and if you do not have fat checkbooks then you do not deserve a voice. Deal with it.
Did anyone verify if Don built a home in the winter range? Good for him if he did. Stewardship is over rated.
LAST EDITED ON May-02-12 AT 06:41PM (MST)[p]OCK---Now you're really talking out of your azz! FYI, I retired before I turned 55 and could buy one of the tags you mentioned if I was so inclined, so go fly a kite when you can't come with anything more than you have on the last few posts. While you're at it, take BTK with you!!!! It's not that I can't buy one, but rather that the system sucks and is not fair for all who want a chance at a tag! Your reading comprehension also sucks because I have said a number of times that I have no plans to hunt in Utah and that what I am doing is to try and insure that the tag grab stays right in Utah and doesn't spread to other states that I might want to hunt. Comprende dude?
BTK---Zim isn't a public employee, so you're out to lunch on that one like a lot of the other stuff you post! I believe some time ago in another thread that he mentioned that he's in the construction business, but I'm not positive. When you came up with that search BS about him being a public employee he actually was giving you the business in his response and it looks like you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
BTK---Zim isn't a public employee, so you're out to lunch on that one like a lot of the other stuff you post! I believe some time ago in another thread that he mentioned that he's in the construction business, but I'm not positive. When you came up with that search BS about him being a public employee he actually was giving you the business in his response and it looks like you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
O
OttercreekKid
Guest
Top, sounds like you must of got an early buyout to retire. I can't imagine what working around you would be like for very long. I'd like to see you draw the Pauns this year so you could ##### about some other states draw problems. Sorry but you sound like a real azzholee to me.
LAST EDITED ON May-02-12 AT 09:22PM (MST)[p]OCK---Why is it that when you guys disagree with someone that you attack the person instead of the subject? FYI, I did 3 years in the Army Veterinary Corp and then over 30 years with the State of Michigan in law enforcement. 4 months before I was to take a normal retirement at 55 years of age they offered an early out and I met the requirements, so I retired in June of 2002, 4 months before I had planned to. My wife just retired as an RN and made good money. Between the two of us, we invested a lot of our money and have more than a decent amount saved up on top of monthly retirement and SS checks. Our home was paid off a number of years ago, so I have a decent amount of disposble income just from our monthly checks and don't even need to dip into our investments, but it's there if needed. I'm a down to earth guy that started hunting 60 years ago with my Dad and don't like the thought of seeing our states go the route Utah took where the average guy is getting screwed the way those tag deals are set up. I have no plans to ever hunt Utah and only want to see that no other states go that route. What makes me an azzhole for wanting a fair system everywhere else and keeping the tag grab solely in Utah? If you guys love it so much and don't want it to change, so be it, but keep it in Utah! It's pretty simple if you just sit back and think a little and I think that's also the outlook that Zim has on the subject, although he has money invested in trying to hunt in Utah and I don't.
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
LAST EDITED ON May-02-12 AT 10:10PM (MST)[p]>yuck, zim is fighting most
>this battle during work hrs.
>where he is paid by
>the "public" with hard earned
>tax dollars. look at
>the record. it's all
>there. don't see how
>zim is more a saint.
> he just has a
>lot more time than others
>to sit on the internet
>as an SFW hater and
>bring them down from the
>top down... oh, did
>i say that a big
>chunk of his time fighting
>this battle is paid for
>by tax dollars. yes,
>yours and mine. a
>great "public" servant. glad
>to hear our public servants
>are so well trained in
>internet chat forums and how
>to use them to get
>gain while on the publics
>dollar. what a great
>public servant. i am
>sure if several people had
>more time, public servants or
>private sector guys, they would
>do more research and participate
>in these debates.
>
>this reminds me of BARAK using
>hard earned tax dollars to
>make the lime lite and
>play politics... what a
>joke.
btk, You do not know who I work for. You don't even know what I do. You think I'm a police trainer or something. C'mon guy. What up with all this?
You are just plain outright guessing. My work is none of your business, but I will say it's extremely independent. And I just completed my 5th consecutive year exceeding my goals every single quarter. In fact I can pretty much go wherever I want, whenever I want, because my kids are moved out and I'm single. I have no obligations to anyone at home. My boss could care less where I am as long as I get my quota met and done accurately, which I always do. I often work weekends or at night if I feel like it. Don't matter. I'm fortunate to love my job and employer. Every day is the same to me.
I started work at age 12 weekends/summers for my dad and have never been unemployed in 40 years. Never collected any entitlement check for anythiing. Far cry from the entitlement philosophy that has balooned the US national debt.
Dropped a nice turkey today. Great public land hunt. Back at it tomorrow, and walleye on the Mississippi Saturday.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
>this battle during work hrs.
>where he is paid by
>the "public" with hard earned
>tax dollars. look at
>the record. it's all
>there. don't see how
>zim is more a saint.
> he just has a
>lot more time than others
>to sit on the internet
>as an SFW hater and
>bring them down from the
>top down... oh, did
>i say that a big
>chunk of his time fighting
>this battle is paid for
>by tax dollars. yes,
>yours and mine. a
>great "public" servant. glad
>to hear our public servants
>are so well trained in
>internet chat forums and how
>to use them to get
>gain while on the publics
>dollar. what a great
>public servant. i am
>sure if several people had
>more time, public servants or
>private sector guys, they would
>do more research and participate
>in these debates.
>
>this reminds me of BARAK using
>hard earned tax dollars to
>make the lime lite and
>play politics... what a
>joke.
btk, You do not know who I work for. You don't even know what I do. You think I'm a police trainer or something. C'mon guy. What up with all this?
You are just plain outright guessing. My work is none of your business, but I will say it's extremely independent. And I just completed my 5th consecutive year exceeding my goals every single quarter. In fact I can pretty much go wherever I want, whenever I want, because my kids are moved out and I'm single. I have no obligations to anyone at home. My boss could care less where I am as long as I get my quota met and done accurately, which I always do. I often work weekends or at night if I feel like it. Don't matter. I'm fortunate to love my job and employer. Every day is the same to me.
I started work at age 12 weekends/summers for my dad and have never been unemployed in 40 years. Never collected any entitlement check for anythiing. Far cry from the entitlement philosophy that has balooned the US national debt.
Dropped a nice turkey today. Great public land hunt. Back at it tomorrow, and walleye on the Mississippi Saturday.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
billythekid
Active Member
- Messages
- 435
well then who are you zim. the only one i can google based off your profile is the one described above. if it's not you than i am sorry. if it is you, well....
you've wanted so dearly to know what several of us "do" for a living. what do you do? what have you done? cats out of the bag for the rest of us.
you've wanted so dearly to know what several of us "do" for a living. what do you do? what have you done? cats out of the bag for the rest of us.
travishunter3006
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,065
TOPGUN, I can't agree more.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,022
OttercreekKid and BilltheKid have posted some very ignorant comments on this thread. Their names apparently describe them quite accurately--they are kids. There are plenty of hardworking, educated, level-headed people who have concerns regarding the the number of conservation and convention tags in Utah. The fact that we are troubled by the current system in Utah does not mean that we are jealous, stupid and lazy. In fact, I believe that it is exactly the opposite. We have spent the time to research and study what is actually going on around us, and we are concerned with where we are heading.
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
Hawkeye
Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
billythekid
Active Member
- Messages
- 435
has nothing to do with the sfw anymore. zim and top are the two that started calling people out, "digging deap", making false accusations, and in a sense "acting like kids". i have stooped to their level in dealing with them. you guys have a lot of legit concerns in utah. these are good discussions.
btw, zim can you answer the questions. when i google your name and place i only get what the next guy does. is it wrong?
btw, zim can you answer the questions. when i google your name and place i only get what the next guy does. is it wrong?
billythekid
May-03-12, 09:29 AM (MST)
180. "RE: UT results\OR deadline"
has nothing to do with the sfw anymore. zim and top are the two that started calling people out, "digging deap", making false accusations, and in a sense "acting like kids". i have stooped to their level in dealing with them. you guys have a lot of legit concerns in utah. these are good discussions.
***I will say this again because you completely ignored it in the other thread where you accused me of things I haven't done regarding yourself. Please Copy/Paste anything you can find anywhere in any of my posts on the threads you are talking about where I've made false accusations about you. The only statement I believe I may have made or agreed with regarding you was that your brother is a guide for the biggest name in the business that is always talked about on this website. Yes, your brother Chad, who stands to gain from that AZ auction tag grab section of the Bill and that has come out and publicly supported it when it was trying to be "back-doored" in an under the table "emergency" farce of a Bill. That is a true statement based on facts right in these threads and not an accusation. There are no "accusations" such as you describe and attribute to me and the threads are still there in their entirety! Let me put it this way BTK and maybe you'll understand it in plain English---Put up or shut up!!! I'm attacking your thoughts and opinions on raffling or auctioning off big game tags and not YOU personally!
May-03-12, 09:29 AM (MST)
180. "RE: UT results\OR deadline"
has nothing to do with the sfw anymore. zim and top are the two that started calling people out, "digging deap", making false accusations, and in a sense "acting like kids". i have stooped to their level in dealing with them. you guys have a lot of legit concerns in utah. these are good discussions.
***I will say this again because you completely ignored it in the other thread where you accused me of things I haven't done regarding yourself. Please Copy/Paste anything you can find anywhere in any of my posts on the threads you are talking about where I've made false accusations about you. The only statement I believe I may have made or agreed with regarding you was that your brother is a guide for the biggest name in the business that is always talked about on this website. Yes, your brother Chad, who stands to gain from that AZ auction tag grab section of the Bill and that has come out and publicly supported it when it was trying to be "back-doored" in an under the table "emergency" farce of a Bill. That is a true statement based on facts right in these threads and not an accusation. There are no "accusations" such as you describe and attribute to me and the threads are still there in their entirety! Let me put it this way BTK and maybe you'll understand it in plain English---Put up or shut up!!! I'm attacking your thoughts and opinions on raffling or auctioning off big game tags and not YOU personally!
>>when you get done chokin that
>>turk get those 96 tag
>>numbers, I can't seem to
>>find them on my puter.
>>Plus if you post them
>>people will believe the numbers.thanks
>>in advance for your response.
>
>
>Just loaded gear between hunts.
>Dug out the old proclamations
>I found still in mint
>condition, 1997 not 96.
>Not sure why ur so
>anal with 25 posts about
>this, when the result is
>so obvious, and confirms what
>I said. The 97
>Pauns NR archery had 6
>tags. So it went
>from 6 to 2.
>
>So according to Don Peay's doctrine,
>by auctioning away our tags
>the resulting money will result
>in big fund raising, big
>improvements, and in the end........more
>opportunity, more tags. I
>would think 15 years is
>adequate time for his grand
>vision to materialize. I
>know his wallet sure has
>expanded in those 15 years.
>
>
>OK, now I am not great
>at math. However, the
>last time I checked 6
>is 3 times as many
>as 2. Correct me
>if wrong, but I believe
>1997 was the year SFW
>first infected Utah. So
>under 15 years of their
>revolutionary master plan, all the
>big money lobbying, endless habitat
>improvement projects, and huge consultant
>fee investment, this chemical engineering
>mastermind reduced my opportunity by
>66% ?
>
>Can some SFW outfitter please put
>a spin on this number
>and explain to us that
>2 is more than 6?
>
>
>Nice to know that there could
>be as many as 9
>auction/expo folks cutting in line
>for this hunt, compared to
>2 true sportsmen.
>
>*********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
zim
look at the resident tags you turkey chokin dork!! your getting old . come up with some real numbers or find something else to whine about all deer tags have been cut!!! not just non-res. again your the one who makes up numbers and can't back it up !i bet you have no clue where the pauns. is!!
>>turk get those 96 tag
>>numbers, I can't seem to
>>find them on my puter.
>>Plus if you post them
>>people will believe the numbers.thanks
>>in advance for your response.
>
>
>Just loaded gear between hunts.
>Dug out the old proclamations
>I found still in mint
>condition, 1997 not 96.
>Not sure why ur so
>anal with 25 posts about
>this, when the result is
>so obvious, and confirms what
>I said. The 97
>Pauns NR archery had 6
>tags. So it went
>from 6 to 2.
>
>So according to Don Peay's doctrine,
>by auctioning away our tags
>the resulting money will result
>in big fund raising, big
>improvements, and in the end........more
>opportunity, more tags. I
>would think 15 years is
>adequate time for his grand
>vision to materialize. I
>know his wallet sure has
>expanded in those 15 years.
>
>
>OK, now I am not great
>at math. However, the
>last time I checked 6
>is 3 times as many
>as 2. Correct me
>if wrong, but I believe
>1997 was the year SFW
>first infected Utah. So
>under 15 years of their
>revolutionary master plan, all the
>big money lobbying, endless habitat
>improvement projects, and huge consultant
>fee investment, this chemical engineering
>mastermind reduced my opportunity by
>66% ?
>
>Can some SFW outfitter please put
>a spin on this number
>and explain to us that
>2 is more than 6?
>
>
>Nice to know that there could
>be as many as 9
>auction/expo folks cutting in line
>for this hunt, compared to
>2 true sportsmen.
>
>*********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
zim
look at the resident tags you turkey chokin dork!! your getting old . come up with some real numbers or find something else to whine about all deer tags have been cut!!! not just non-res. again your the one who makes up numbers and can't back it up !i bet you have no clue where the pauns. is!!
>LAST EDITED ON May-02-12
>AT 10:10?PM (MST)
>
>>yuck, zim is fighting most
>>this battle during work hrs.
>>where he is paid by
>>the "public" with hard earned
>>tax dollars. look at
>>the record. it's all
>>there. don't see how
>>zim is more a saint.
>> he just has a
>>lot more time than others
>>to sit on the internet
>>as an SFW hater and
>>bring them down from the
>>top down... oh, did
>>i say that a big
>>chunk of his time fighting
>>this battle is paid for
>>by tax dollars. yes,
>>yours and mine. a
>>great "public" servant. glad
>>to hear our public servants
>>are so well trained in
>>internet chat forums and how
>>to use them to get
>>gain while on the publics
>>dollar. what a great
>>public servant. i am
>>sure if several people had
>>more time, public servants or
>>private sector guys, they would
>>do more research and participate
>>in these debates.
>>
>>this reminds me of BARAK using
>>hard earned tax dollars to
>>make the lime lite and
>>play politics... what a
>>joke.
>
>btk, You do not know who
>I work for. You
>don't even know what I
>do. You think I'm
>a police trainer or something.
> C'mon guy. What
>up with all this?
>
>You are just plain outright guessing.
> My work is none
>of your business, but I
>will say it's extremely independent.
> And I just completed
>my 5th consecutive year exceeding
>my goals every single quarter.
> In fact I can
>pretty much go wherever I
>want, whenever I want, because
>my kids are moved out
>and I'm single. I
>have no obligations to anyone
>at home. My boss
>could care less where I
>am as long as I
>get my quota met and
>done accurately, which I always
>do. I often work
>weekends or at night if
>I feel like it.
>Don't matter. I'm fortunate
>to love my job and
>employer. Every day is
>the same to me.
>
>I started work at age 12
>weekends/summers for my dad and
>have never been unemployed in
>40 years. Never collected
>any entitlement check for anythiing.
> Far cry from the
>entitlement philosophy that has balooned
>the US national debt.
>
>Dropped a nice turkey today.
>Great public land hunt.
>Back at it tomorrow, and
>walleye on the Mississippi Saturday.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
"no obligation to anyone"
i had no idea you were such a big deal!! go ahead and make up all the tag numbers you want. i sure hope you get the pauns tag sounds like you really deserve it!
>AT 10:10?PM (MST)
>
>>yuck, zim is fighting most
>>this battle during work hrs.
>>where he is paid by
>>the "public" with hard earned
>>tax dollars. look at
>>the record. it's all
>>there. don't see how
>>zim is more a saint.
>> he just has a
>>lot more time than others
>>to sit on the internet
>>as an SFW hater and
>>bring them down from the
>>top down... oh, did
>>i say that a big
>>chunk of his time fighting
>>this battle is paid for
>>by tax dollars. yes,
>>yours and mine. a
>>great "public" servant. glad
>>to hear our public servants
>>are so well trained in
>>internet chat forums and how
>>to use them to get
>>gain while on the publics
>>dollar. what a great
>>public servant. i am
>>sure if several people had
>>more time, public servants or
>>private sector guys, they would
>>do more research and participate
>>in these debates.
>>
>>this reminds me of BARAK using
>>hard earned tax dollars to
>>make the lime lite and
>>play politics... what a
>>joke.
>
>btk, You do not know who
>I work for. You
>don't even know what I
>do. You think I'm
>a police trainer or something.
> C'mon guy. What
>up with all this?
>
>You are just plain outright guessing.
> My work is none
>of your business, but I
>will say it's extremely independent.
> And I just completed
>my 5th consecutive year exceeding
>my goals every single quarter.
> In fact I can
>pretty much go wherever I
>want, whenever I want, because
>my kids are moved out
>and I'm single. I
>have no obligations to anyone
>at home. My boss
>could care less where I
>am as long as I
>get my quota met and
>done accurately, which I always
>do. I often work
>weekends or at night if
>I feel like it.
>Don't matter. I'm fortunate
>to love my job and
>employer. Every day is
>the same to me.
>
>I started work at age 12
>weekends/summers for my dad and
>have never been unemployed in
>40 years. Never collected
>any entitlement check for anythiing.
> Far cry from the
>entitlement philosophy that has balooned
>the US national debt.
>
>Dropped a nice turkey today.
>Great public land hunt.
>Back at it tomorrow, and
>walleye on the Mississippi Saturday.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
"no obligation to anyone"
i had no idea you were such a big deal!! go ahead and make up all the tag numbers you want. i sure hope you get the pauns tag sounds like you really deserve it!
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
I am glad I'm too busy turkey hunting to bother with this thread. So "no profile" people are Googling my name trying to dig up dirt or something? Really? Sounds like some folks have too much time on their hands and need to get a life. 
I can save you some time by telling you no way my employer would allow anything about my job to be disclosed.
It is quite perverted that personally hides behind an undisclosed profile would do that. They obviously have something to hide that I don't.
It's a waste of time posting with entitlement outfitters who have everything to gain from stealing tags from honest sportsmen and putting them in the hands of very wealthy clients.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
I can save you some time by telling you no way my employer would allow anything about my job to be disclosed.It is quite perverted that personally hides behind an undisclosed profile would do that. They obviously have something to hide that I don't.
It's a waste of time posting with entitlement outfitters who have everything to gain from stealing tags from honest sportsmen and putting them in the hands of very wealthy clients.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
LAST EDITED ON May-03-12 AT 07:18PM (MST)[p]Funny that about the only ones that have allowed their names up on the site are Troy and Bob, to name a couple, and they are known, paid SFW employees. I'm about ready to drop out of this whole SFW thing on the site because we are getting nowhere fast with these people who think their organization is the next best thing to sliced bread. Anyway, I have a plate full the next few days as I've got three yards to cut so I can take the Speaker of the MI House of Representatives out with his kid on Sunday and a lady State Representative out on Monday to call a longbeard or two in for them. It's a lot more fruitful helping people that want to be helped and learn stuff about the outdoors than dealing with people that condone selling tags to the rich while pushing the average guy under the bus!
billythekid
Active Member
- Messages
- 435
good deal top. sounds like you're really important. how about you zim, are you really important? if i waz smrt az u i wood chgne mi profile butt i don't now how. so for those of us that can read, my name is shane rhoton. i live in alaska. i am a dentist. there you go zimmer.. what about you, can you crack the egg and fill us in? you accused me of being a SFW affiliated guide and so i proved you wrong. i am accusing you of being a public paid servant that wastes hard earned tax dollars fighting the SFW. am i wrong? please tell me i am, but be sure to tell me how. shane
I didn't say I was important, you did, but I guess somebody thinks I know what I'm doing in the turkey woods to ask for my help, LOL! Two for two in three short mornings on nice longbeards---not too bad! I also don't believe Zim ever said you were a guide or had anything to gain yourself, but he did say your vested interest was because your brother is an AZ guide who would benefit from the tag auction. It looks like you just want to argue for arguments sake with the crap you keep posting that is false! I also notice you didn't do any C/Ps showing anything you say I did to you like I asked you to do. Got you on that one too Bro! I imagine any minute now your buddy OCK will have to chime in with some BS too! I'm out of here and you can talk to yourself from here on out. Looks like with your profession you are probably good with mouths, so how about looking at your own and grow up before you use it again! Incidentally Shane, you still haven't said why you used a fictitious name on your profile! Too bad somebody had to force it out of you!!!
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
>good deal top. sounds like
>you're really important. how
>about you zim, are you
>really important? if i
>waz smrt az u i
>wood chgne mi profile butt
>i don't now how.
>so for those of us
>that can read, my name
>is shane rhoton. i
>live in alaska. i
>am a dentist. there
>you go zimmer.. what
>about you, can you crack
>the egg and fill us
>in? you accused me
>of being a SFW affiliated
>guide and so i proved
>you wrong. i am
>accusing you of being a
>public paid servant that wastes
>hard earned tax dollars fighting
>the SFW. am i
>wrong? please tell me
>i am, but be sure
>to tell me how.
>shane
Haha ya you confirm who you are .....only after getting 100% busted by those of us in the know! Why not post it in your profile in the first place?
I am only allowed to disclose some things about my employment, and it's a grey area I don't care to venture into.....certainly not for an SFW toadie! And that is the truth, not like some folks here.
coon, For all your whining about the tag numbers, I go through all the trouble of searching 8 boxes for those procs in my garage and you have nothing to say? What up with that?
The turkey I harvested yesterday had 4 beards, 1 1/8" spurs. Pretty nice one to be entered in a contest. Didn't score it yet, but should rank high. Cost me $15 for the NR public tag, so I know this wouldn't interest SFWers out there.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
>you're really important. how
>about you zim, are you
>really important? if i
>waz smrt az u i
>wood chgne mi profile butt
>i don't now how.
>so for those of us
>that can read, my name
>is shane rhoton. i
>live in alaska. i
>am a dentist. there
>you go zimmer.. what
>about you, can you crack
>the egg and fill us
>in? you accused me
>of being a SFW affiliated
>guide and so i proved
>you wrong. i am
>accusing you of being a
>public paid servant that wastes
>hard earned tax dollars fighting
>the SFW. am i
>wrong? please tell me
>i am, but be sure
>to tell me how.
>shane
Haha ya you confirm who you are .....only after getting 100% busted by those of us in the know! Why not post it in your profile in the first place?
I am only allowed to disclose some things about my employment, and it's a grey area I don't care to venture into.....certainly not for an SFW toadie!
And that is the truth, not like some folks here.coon, For all your whining about the tag numbers, I go through all the trouble of searching 8 boxes for those procs in my garage and you have nothing to say? What up with that?
The turkey I harvested yesterday had 4 beards, 1 1/8" spurs. Pretty nice one to be entered in a contest. Didn't score it yet, but should rank high. Cost me $15 for the NR public tag, so I know this wouldn't interest SFWers out there.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
The turkey I have been hunting display more logic than some of the SFW crowd on here. Like "anyone is free to bid on the auction tags therefor the tag grabs comply with the NAMWC".
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
>>good deal top. sounds like
>>you're really important. how
>>about you zim, are you
>>really important? if i
>>waz smrt az u i
>>wood chgne mi profile butt
>>i don't now how.
>>so for those of us
>>that can read, my name
>>is shane rhoton. i
>>live in alaska. i
>>am a dentist. there
>>you go zimmer.. what
>>about you, can you crack
>>the egg and fill us
>>in? you accused me
>>of being a SFW affiliated
>>guide and so i proved
>>you wrong. i am
>>accusing you of being a
>>public paid servant that wastes
>>hard earned tax dollars fighting
>>the SFW. am i
>>wrong? please tell me
>>i am, but be sure
>>to tell me how.
>>shane
>
>Haha ya you confirm who you
>are .....only after getting 100%
>busted by those of us
>in the know! Why
>not post it in your
>profile in the first place?
>
>
>I am only allowed to disclose
>some things about my employment,
>and it's a grey area
>I don't care to venture
>into.....certainly not for an SFW
>toadie! And
>that is the truth, not
>like some folks here.
>
>coon, For all your whining about
>the tag numbers, I go
>through all the trouble of
>searching 8 boxes for those
>procs in my garage and
>you have nothing to say?
> What up with that?
>
>
>The turkey I harvested yesterday had
>4 beards, 1 1/8" spurs.
> Pretty nice one to
>be entered in a contest.
> Didn't score it yet,
>but should rank high.
>Cost me $15 for the
>NR public tag, so I
>know this wouldn't interest SFWers
>out there.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
please refer to post 183 you bad azz turkey chokin tag number makin-up Illarcher total POS
>>you're really important. how
>>about you zim, are you
>>really important? if i
>>waz smrt az u i
>>wood chgne mi profile butt
>>i don't now how.
>>so for those of us
>>that can read, my name
>>is shane rhoton. i
>>live in alaska. i
>>am a dentist. there
>>you go zimmer.. what
>>about you, can you crack
>>the egg and fill us
>>in? you accused me
>>of being a SFW affiliated
>>guide and so i proved
>>you wrong. i am
>>accusing you of being a
>>public paid servant that wastes
>>hard earned tax dollars fighting
>>the SFW. am i
>>wrong? please tell me
>>i am, but be sure
>>to tell me how.
>>shane
>
>Haha ya you confirm who you
>are .....only after getting 100%
>busted by those of us
>in the know! Why
>not post it in your
>profile in the first place?
>
>
>I am only allowed to disclose
>some things about my employment,
>and it's a grey area
>I don't care to venture
>into.....certainly not for an SFW
>toadie!
And >that is the truth, not
>like some folks here.
>
>coon, For all your whining about
>the tag numbers, I go
>through all the trouble of
>searching 8 boxes for those
>procs in my garage and
>you have nothing to say?
> What up with that?
>
>
>The turkey I harvested yesterday had
>4 beards, 1 1/8" spurs.
> Pretty nice one to
>be entered in a contest.
> Didn't score it yet,
>but should rank high.
>Cost me $15 for the
>NR public tag, so I
>know this wouldn't interest SFWers
>out there.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>UBNM, UWC & the SFW
>Hate Club
please refer to post 183 you bad azz turkey chokin tag number makin-up Illarcher total POS
billythekid
Active Member
- Messages
- 435
oh come on zim, are you a politician. haha, an obama lover from illinois. what's up. can't face the music. what are you motives. obviously it's not SFW, but who know, you are from illinois shoving yourself into others business. you might be a liberal socialist anti pig. we'll never know. you play a good front and are unwilling to come out of the closet.
zim
if you could read the utah proclamation as good as you kill turks you would have already killed a big buck!! nice job on the turk though. still wondering when your gonna come clean on real utah tag numbers?? your such a big deal you could give dp a run for the pres of sfw
if you could read the utah proclamation as good as you kill turks you would have already killed a big buck!! nice job on the turk though. still wondering when your gonna come clean on real utah tag numbers?? your such a big deal you could give dp a run for the pres of sfw
billythekid
Active Member
- Messages
- 435
i hope that's a fair competition and you hunted on PUBLIC ground. if you hunted on private, you might want to reconsider your prestige. i've never knew of anyone that could kill a four bearded turkey but couldn't talk about their job, LOL. you're a piece of work.
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
LAST EDITED ON May-05-12 AT 10:35AM (MST)[p]>i hope that's a fair competition
>and you hunted on PUBLIC
>ground. if you
>hunted on private, you might
>want to reconsider your prestige.
> i've never knew of
>anyone that could kill a
>four bearded turkey but couldn't
>talk about their job, LOL.
> you're a piece of
>work.
You betcha it was public land. Not only that, but I'd never set foot on the property until 4 AM that morning. I scouted about 100 parcels via their Wisconsin interactive public lands page & Google Earth. Narrowed it down to 10-15, power scouted and hunted about 6 so far. All were overcrowded with hunters except this one. I'll have to zip it up because I saw 17 birds in 2 hours, zero turk hunters, and one shroomer. That is a good combination. Bird scored 85.125 NWTF. Worked him for 45 minutes before a hen interrupted and sold him on my decoy. Boom goes the dynamite.
My boss said I could answer your turkey questions only.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
>and you hunted on PUBLIC
>ground. if you
>hunted on private, you might
>want to reconsider your prestige.
> i've never knew of
>anyone that could kill a
>four bearded turkey but couldn't
>talk about their job, LOL.
> you're a piece of
>work.
You betcha it was public land. Not only that, but I'd never set foot on the property until 4 AM that morning. I scouted about 100 parcels via their Wisconsin interactive public lands page & Google Earth. Narrowed it down to 10-15, power scouted and hunted about 6 so far. All were overcrowded with hunters except this one. I'll have to zip it up because I saw 17 birds in 2 hours, zero turk hunters, and one shroomer. That is a good combination. Bird scored 85.125 NWTF. Worked him for 45 minutes before a hen interrupted and sold him on my decoy. Boom goes the dynamite.
My boss said I could answer your turkey questions only.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
Important is relative. There is absolutely no way I am discussing my work under any circumstance because with the economy the way it is I am not interested in testing the waters. I respect my employer's rules. So no, I won't answer your question about your link nor any other.
Are you sure you are a grown up? You don't act like one.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
Are you sure you are a grown up? You don't act like one.
***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
LAST EDITED ON May-06-12 AT 07:02AM (MST)[p]BTK---Forget it, as after that post you're not worth the time to type what would have probably got me banned. A Doctor in the US Army that talks like you do should be dismissed from the service that I was so proud to have once been in!!!
