Utah Archery Dates & the elk rut

4

4_Plesur

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What is the likely hood of Utah bowhunters being able to change the archery dates for elk to be at least 1 week later?

I can't believe how archery hunters just barely miss the primetime of the rut season. I just have such a hard time with the state giving rifle hunters the prime time for hunting elk?

Maybe I'm wrong and it's just me and my hunting group that thinks the DWR should change the dates.

What do you guys think?
 
I agree change the date.I'm a N.R. but hope to draw a Archery tag one of these days.
Oilcan
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-07 AT 05:33PM (MST)[p] UBA is in the process already of doing just that. When the draft is finalized I will post it or have Jerry post it.
 
4_, I have chased this idea for quite a while. The problem comes in the form of a legislation ( LAW ) that says the deer hunt ( rifle) will start on a certain day.

Proposals ain't gonna get it done!! It will take an act of legislation to do away with the start date of the rifle deer hunt so that other hunts will and can be moved.

Along with moving this date for the rifle hunt you get into a domino effect with all of the other hunts involved such as rifle LE elk, Muzz deer and the general elk season. I know what you are saying but it ain't as easy as some will lead you to believe.
 
Absolutely!!!!!

And the Utah DWR call themselves "Herd Managers"!

It's a joke that they have the hunt dates set the way they do... Happens every year; Hard hunting and low percentage kills for archers that need to get within 40-50 yards for an ethical shot, let alone the bulls not responding or even interested in mixing it up with cows and/or other bulls.

Then, 2-3 days after the archery ends, the pre-rut starts hard for the rifle hunters (no offense to rifle hunters) and they slaughter them (at 400+ yards). Then the smoke pole season after that (which they need to get within 100-150 yards).

Great way for the DWR to manage huh?

I say they move the archery later by two weeks, then the smoke pole, then the rifle (the rifle hunters would still be successful, just not a complete slaughter). My belief is that is a better way to not thin out the better bulls to much. (Remember the great management of elk they did in the fish lake area years ago??)
 
From what I gathered at the meeting they held at TSI the only thing they are trying change is to start the hunt 5 days ealier then end it five days earlier on the spike units and give the limited entry archery hunters the unit to them selves. They really are not trying to move the date any closer to the rut. Atleast that's the way I understood it?
 
olmossyhorn is correct on what UBA will be proposing at the RAC's next month. This will atleast allow the LE archery hunters 5 days w/o competing w/spike hunters.

I say there are ways to change season dates w/o going thru the legislature. Moving the rifle hunt out of September is/should be a no-brainer on most of the LE units, I am fine with a few 'premium' units having rut hunts, but not all 28 LE units. There is plenty of 'wiggle' room for date changes, it just takes compromise from all sides. I like September 1-21 for archery, September 26-October 5 for muzzy, October 6-17 for rifle. This is outside the rifle deer hunt window. I say let's do it!

PRO
 
I live in Nevada and I agree with you guys. I am amazed how Utah allows these elk to be slaughtered when they are the most vulnerable. I think the archers should get the rut followed by muzzy then rifle. This would also drop the success rate during the rifle hunt and allow for more hunting opportunity and more tags so everyone isn't waiting 20 yrs or more to draw a tag.
 
Rifle hunters enjoy 90% success rates, as stated, by simply moving the rifle hunt out of September the DWR could issue MORE tags and kill the excat same number of bulls. It would just make the rifle hunt a HUNT instead of a shoot.

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-07 AT 08:32AM (MST)[p]I've never hunted Colorado or Wyoming, but I hear that they are the ones who have figured it out with their dates.
I was just recently reading an article in one of these hunting magazines and it said, "when your Utah hunt fails you AGAIN, consider Colorado." 1-4 people killed elk there last year. The rut falls right during archery hunt.

Don't they have laws regarding their deer hunts. I wonder why we can't restructure some our dates to those of our neighboring states as prooutdoors mentioned.

To the DWR's credit, I'm sure they hear about this stuff all the time. I imagine they are pretty aware of the hunting season dates for those other states. BUT, I would like to hear, in their opinion, why we can't make change.

I just hope that it doesn't boil down to $$$$. And someone being greedy doing whatever they can to make the biggest buck.
 
The dates PRO suggested are perfect. It would also allow for more people to hunt, because the success rate would drop slightly.
Pro,
Any suggestions on how to move this forward?
 
bowhunt, a group of hunters/sportsmen are currently working on just such a proposal, shoot me a PM if you want to jump on board! We have met with the DWR and a couple of the conservation groups on this. We are in the beginning trying to get this change on just five of the LE units that have spike tags issued on them.

PRO
 
I agree the dates should change as PRO stated. I don't however agree with the change of the spike units in regards to them getting 5 days to themselves. I think the LE rifle hunters scouting push the elk more than the handful of archery hunters that are still hunting. I only saw one other hunter the last 9 days the rest where all scouting for up coming hunts.
 
Check your inbox Mike.

olmossyhorn, the point is some spike/anterless archers chase bugles. This is on top of having to hunt when it is hot and the calling is less effective. The rifle hunters have to contend with what? And, they get a much better time to hunt. Another issue is the grouse hunters, UBA is looking at what/if we can do something to address this as well. I myself, under the current season dates will NOT put in for a LE unit that issues spike tags. Give the archers FIVE days to not compete with other hunters, I am not sure what can/should be done with the rifle guys scouting, except ask for respecting others hunts.

PRO
 
PRO I agree with most of it but I don't think that changing spike units is the best idea in my own opinion but I strongly agree the dates should be changed overall like you said archery muzzzy then rifle. We don't have to agree but I think everyone should voice their opinions so the UBA can act on behalf of ALL archers.
 
That is something I have never understood, why they ever put the rifle hunt in front of the muzzleloader. Makes no sense to me. I like the sound of a change, I hope it happens. I think it would make the archery and muzzle hunts better, and I don't think it would hurt the rifle hunt one bit.
 
I would love to see those dates for the open bull units also but then what happens to the youth hunt that falls right after the archery hunt, then the muzzle deer hunt that falls right after the youth hunt, then all the other hunts that fall right after the other from weekend to weekend. I would also like to see the open bull units go to branch antler bulls like some other states. If you want to shoot a spike go hunt a spike unit.
 
why have a youth hunt? Lets face it, these kids aren't going hunting without an adult any way. Why not have a youth tag where they could hunt archery, muzzy, and rifle? If they harvest in one of those seasons early then of course they're done. I really cannot think of a better way to introduce our kids to hunting by letting them experience all three seasons....can you?
 
This subject has been a sore spot for the archery hunter for years. I live in Utah and Utah is my last choice for a Elk archery hunt every year. Its sickening, Why can't the DWR at least extend the archery hunt in the open bull units?

I think all of us archery hunters need to get on the DWR forum and express our feelings on this matter.
 
Strike the forum idea, the DWR removed there forum. I guess they can't handle constructive advise!
 
Why don't we give the 10 percent of hunters that call themselves bowhunters the entire month of September? Maybe we could give the 60 percent of hunters that don't bowhunt a couple of days in May. WILL THE BOWHUNTERS EVER BE SATISFIED?
 
>WILL THE BOWHUNTERS EVER BE SATISFIED?

As soon as the archery hunt is the whole month of Sept like every other properly managed elk state in the west. As soon as Utah decideds that a few "high fence like" hunts are not as important as proper management.

Lest anyone suggest that I am just an opportunist, I've been suggesting this same thing for 10 years. I now have 12 points and am patiently waiting my turn like every one else.

When a state like AZ has half as many elk, four (4) times as many big bull permits, archery hunts the whole month of September and comes very close to Utah's high fence like statistics for 400" bulls there's something wrong.

When are the rifle hunters ever going to get a clue?

Cheers,
Pete
 
Amen c3!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Thanks Pete! Well stated. Good luck with your draw this year. Although, hopefully the archery dates won't screw you up with the rut... Now that's funny. No it's VERY SAD.
 
You guys need to remember that the rut elk hunt in Utah is an any weapon hunt not rifle hunt. The odds are worse as much for the time of hunt as the weapon. There is nothing that says you can't wait your turn to draw an any weapon tag and hunt with your bow in the rut.

I am tired of hearing lets run Utah elk hunts like Arizona. We don't have the same habitat and terrain. If you turned 300 people loose on a late rifle hunt in Utah on one Unit you would destroy it. The elk in Utah in most cases are earier to spot, there are far more vantage points. When I draw my archery tag this year or next would hate to be competing with 149 other hunters. The quality of the experience would go way down. I would hate to have to reserve my water hole in July like you do in Arizona.
 
>>WILL THE BOWHUNTERS EVER BE SATISFIED?
>
>As soon as the archery hunt
>is the whole month of
>Sept like every other properly
>managed elk state in the
>west. As soon as
>Utah decideds that a few
>"high fence like" hunts are
>not as important as proper
>management.
>
>Lest anyone suggest that I am
>just an opportunist, I've been
>suggesting this same thing for
>10 years. I now
>have 12 points and am
>patiently waiting my turn like
>every one else.
>
>When a state like AZ has
>half as many elk, four
>(4) times as many big
>bull permits, archery hunts the
>whole month of September and
>comes very close to Utah's
>high fence like statistics for
>400" bulls there's something wrong.
>
>
>When are the rifle hunters ever
>going to get a clue?
>
>
>Cheers,
>Pete

Pete, I swear you literally read my mind. Nice post.
 
>olmossyhorn is correct on what UBA
>will be proposing at the
>RAC's next month. This will
>atleast allow the LE archery
>hunters 5 days w/o competing
>w/spike hunters.
>
>I say there are ways to
>change season dates w/o going
>thru the legislature. Moving the
>rifle hunt out of September
>is/should be a no-brainer on
>most of the LE units,
>I am fine with a
>few 'premium' units having rut
>hunts, but not all 28
>LE units. There is plenty
>of 'wiggle' room for date
>changes, it just takes compromise
>from all sides. I like
>September 1-21 for archery, September
>26-October 5 for muzzy, October
>6-17 for rifle. This is
>outside the rifle deer hunt
>window. I say let's do
>it!
>
>PRO

This is exactly where it needs to be. Absolutely rediculous that rifle hunters get primetime......from 400 yards away.
 
Bragabit we're still not on the same page :)

This issue is not about if I can hunt the rut or not. It's about how to manage herds to have both the kind of quality that we'd all like to see and have 10 times the oportunity we now have. Obviously we can't simply let loose that many hunters the first year. It takes time and a paradigm shift for both the hunter and the elk to get it to work.

Looks like you and I will both be hunting LE down in your neck of the woods in the next few years. This year I have my 25th aniversary during the archery hunt and punted on the SJ premium tag instead. Last year I would have drawn too, but only put in for a point because I was preparing for and at the Olympic Trials during the archery hunt. I'm not about to use my once in a lifetime hunt on a year where I can't be there the whole time. Lord knows I'm not going to get to do it again in my lifetime the way things are now and neither are my kids.

And that there is the root of the problem. It's simply not appropriate to save the resource for the tiny few and the rich at the expense of our heritage. We could be hunting with 150 other hunters every 5 or 10 years for those 400" bulls who have figured out how to hide and be real elk again instead of a fat joweled Alastair Cooke looking pigs that they have become :)

Cheers,
Pete
 
Great posts Pete.

Manageing any wild species should never be based upon emotion or what is "fair". It must be about Biology. The Biologists are asking for more elk to be harvested. They have been asking for it for over 10 years now. If we want to maximize harvest without impacting quality the best option is always going to be more primitive type tags. They will typically kill less of the upper end bulls. They will also kill a lot fewer elk period. I could care less about the "middle of the rut". It is a much funner way to hunt but these bulls can be killed at other times. Having the "any weapon" hunt during the center of the rut is a little crazy IMO but not something that should hold a person back from hunting the archery or muzzy seasons. As a matter of fact, In my experience, the muzzy dates seem to be when the bulls are the most vocal. Maybe it is just the area I am in though. Have a great day guy's.

Chad
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-08 AT 07:44PM (MST)[p]c3,
Your rite on man! The way the DWR has the Elk hunts set up( 1-archery 2-any weapon 3- muzzel loader)prime dates with the any weapon, which just means rifle, it's messed up! It is mentioned in this post that if they would hold the archery hunt during the prime dates there would be more bulls servive, there fore they could give out more tags. The DWR holds the any weapon hunt during the prime rut dates why???? Folkes its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$ the bucks! Do you think the DWR realy cares about the quality of the archery and the muzzel loader hunts?
 
In Az Units 10,9,23,8 and so on, all take 10 plus points to draw. Much like the premium units in Utah. What is so great about that? Other than I get to fight 10 guys per water hole and have my picture taken by 200 different trail cameras every time I move. I would sooner wait 12 years to hunt the Pahvant with 20 guys than with 12 to hunt 10 in Az with 150.
 
Utah is at a stage where 10 points should get you an archery tag, but soon point creep will happen in a serious way. Thanks largely to your success on the big bulls and the press that followed. I often here on these posts that these are once in a lifetime hunts. I believe that to be true. Whereas you can expect several draws in Arizona, unless you want only the very top units.

As far as the pressure, including scouting pressure, I also here that the top units in Utah are getting this kind of pressure also. Big bulls, conservasion tags and big money will always draw pressure.

I'll admit I would like to see the archery dates moved back some. I don't call sitting in a stand over a water hole a once in a lifetime hunt no matter what may walk in. I love hunting elk in the rut with my bow. Whereas if I could hunt these units in late September or early October with my rifle or muuzy I would still believe that would be a hunt of a lifetime.

Regardless I hope you can maintain the healthy herds and the fantastic hunting opportunity you now have.

Question: Is there a real chance that the archery dates may be move back or is it just a few bow hunters with wishful requests on this site?
 
elmore, Unit 9 Az (top tier in Az),275 late rifle bull tags/25 early bull rifle tags/75 early archery bull tags/25 late archery bull tags/1000 cow tags and produces world class bulls every year.400 bull tags/ No waiting periods/no pick your species, Quality and opportunity.Difference?Az understands weapon success and timing. AZ isnt raising bulls to sell! The sportsmens generosity in Utah is costing alot more than its worth in my opinion.
 
>Question: Is there a real chance
>that the archery dates may
>be move back or is
>it just a few bow
>hunters with wishful requests
>on this site?

Unfortunately Goldhunter, it is just a bunch of us archers pissing in the wind here. The majority of Utahn's want the rifle rut hunt and want it to stay that way.

Cheers,
Pete
 
>>Question: Is there a real chance
>>that the archery dates may
>>be move back or is
>>it just a few bow
>>hunters with wishful requests
>>on this site?
>
>Unfortunately Goldhunter, it is just a
>bunch of us archers pissing
>in the wind here.
>The majority of Utahn's want
>the rifle rut hunt and
>want it to stay that
>way.
>
>Cheers,
>Pete


Pete, some great posts there. Unfortunately you are right. these guys that only hunt with rifle and have been putting in for 10 years don't want anything to change.
It would require more "hunting" from them and they don't want to hunt......they want to draw their tag and go shoot a 360"-400" bull while picking from 15-20 bulls a day. Then they want to call it a great hunt and talk about quality.

Seems that the idea of hunting has gone downhill a lot, everybody wants animals everywhere and no competition from other hunters to produce a quality hunt. A quality hunt is available in a lot of different ways and I think the season should be based on skill, archery, muzzy, then rifle.

How about even going more defined and make it a traditional archery season (no sights and recurve or longbow only?)for 2 weeks, then throw in a rifle season (no scoped rifles?)for 9 days????

Make Utah hunters actually hunt and spread out the tags for different choices.
 
a3d,

I know 4 guys that are die-hard archery. All 4 have drawn LE elk tags. They all killed 340+ bulls and a couple are in that 370+ range. A couple of them read this stuff and mentioned to me they are archers but not like you and several others here. They all kill trophy animals, never complain about the dates, they think the dates are fine, the elk herd is fine, and never fail to connect and then blame it on someone else.

Go see pro and cry on his shoulder. Maybe your momma and pro care about your pity party, but me and many others sure do not.
 

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