UTAH DEER/WILDLIFE SOLUTION

deadibob · Dec 7, 2019

The truth is everyone has a solution but you can't get three people to agree on the same one. Until there is a realistic, solid management plan with thousands of sportsman united and on board, enough money raised to be heard and attorneys hired to sue the state, we will never force their hand into real action. I don't see any other way this can happen.

Does anyone remember prop 5(I'm thinking it was five but I may be wrong) that was passed years ago. It stated that hunting management, laws and rules could only be based on sound biological science. This was to prevent tree-huggers from voting out trapping, hound hunting etc. that was being done in other states. Wildlife to the highest bidder is not sound biological science.

I think it would be easy to prove that the state is working off false data, i.e. animal counts, etc., and not sound scientific data which goes against state law. Managing wildlife for money and special interest groups is also not a sound scientific method of management. Until there is enough unity among the common sportsman, we will never be able to go toe to toe with SFW and greedy politicians. Hunting is a cash cow and they know it. Too many have weaseled their way into riches at the cost of a public resource.

Anyone who has ever been to a RAC meeting before, knows just what a farce public input is. The common sportsman will never have a say in Utah and never be listened to until the state is legally forced to listen and to act. The swamp needs draining and Utah herds need help. Special interests and big dollar hunting must go!

elkassassin · Dec 7, 2019

They were Perty Gutty this year!

Boasting & Advertising the Deer Herd was in Better Shape than the Last 25 Years!

Was that a Lie?

Or Does Somebody wanna SPLAIN that to us?

Some say it'll Never Change!

I've Argued that for years by saying:

Wanna Bet on that?

Stick around!

It'll get worse!

They wanted this Last BS Plan Locked in for 7 years meaning they wouldn't have to Deal with things for 7 More years!

Nobody in their Right Mind would Lock a Plan in to effect for 7 years!

We just went through a 5 Year Plan that FAILED,now they wanna try 7?

JUDAS!

I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

deadibob · Dec 7, 2019

>
>They were Perty Gutty this year!
>
>
>Boasting & Advertising the Deer Herd
>was in Better Shape than
>the Last 25 Years!
>
>Was that a Lie?
>
>Or Does Somebody wanna SPLAIN that
>to us?
>
>Some say it'll Never Change!
>
>I've Argued that for years by
>saying:
>
>Wanna Bet on that?
>
>Stick around!
>
>It'll get worse!
>
>They wanted this Last BS Plan
>Locked in for 7 years
>meaning they wouldn't have to
>Deal with things for 7
>More years!
>
>Nobody in their Right Mind would
>Lock a Plan in to
>effect for 7 years!
>
>We just went through a 5
>Year Plan that FAILED,now they
>wanna try 7?
>
>JUDAS!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!

They lie and they know they lie. 50,000+ hunters are saying deer numbers are down and the state tells us we aren't good hunters and just can't find them. They know their counting methods and animal numbers are EXTREMELY wrong yet they stand by those methods and numbers.

Organizations have come before in the past claiming to have the solutions only to either get sidetracked or corrupt.

So tell me Bess, what's the answer? We're all frustrated, most of us see that there is a big problem for the future of wildlife and hunting in this state. Most other western states seem to have similar problems to one degree or another. Wildlife is a finite renewable resource but with all the problems that it is facing with a modern human society, proper management is of the utmost importance and that, plain and simple is not happening.

They used to tell us the world would soon not be able to produce enough food for a growing human population. Now we have more efficient farming methods and scientific techniques that allow much greater harvests on the same amount of farmland as before. Crisis averted. I can't help but draw similar parallels to our wildlife/hunting issues.

Deer herds can thrive, opportunity can increase, we can all live happily ever after (except for Tri-state, he can go to hell ;-) ) but only if those in charge of these issues can first admit the truth and secondly get serious about fixing the problem. They won't admit there is a problem and are not going to try and fix something they say doesn't exist, unless they are forced to.

I think that where the deer herds are now and the way things are currently trending, the tipping point will be reached before the seven year plan is over.

elkassassin · Dec 7, 2019

I Think they did Drop it to a 5 Year Plan?

But That Won't Help!

There are So Many Problems/Issues with the Deer Management it Will NEVER be Fixed!

The Deer Management of this State is the Biggest F'N Joke there is anywhere!

((( Utah Game Animals Managed Nothing but for Money!)))

I'd Still like to know who's responsible for Claiming the Deer Herd was in better shape than in the past 25 Years?

This Tells Me Somebody is NOT being Truthful!

And Any decent Hunter/Sportsman Knew better than to believe that BS!

I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

hossblur · Dec 7, 2019

LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-19 AT 11:59PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-19 AT 11:47?PM (MST)

Wow.

That's a pretty interesting spin.

You are right we all agree something is wrong, but using prop 5 to force a change? Kinda genius.

So the question then is, HOW? Lawsuit?

I've read some real dumb thoughts on deer. Good thinking.

I just went back and looked, I don't see anything about best scientific practice.

Bess. You've spent a year yapping. Always about $$$$.

Look at who runs the RAC/WB.

Still going to the expo?

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

headshot05 · Dec 7, 2019

Let's go protest, like the puzzy hats did. But with camo hats. If enough people show up it might do something

deadibob · Dec 7, 2019

1,000 protesters would get some attention but it won't change a thing if there isn't a smart, solid plan with clout behind it. The DWR needs to be completely and publicly exposed for the false data and mismanagement they provide and held accountable for it. Until the boat gets rocked hard nothing changes. The media loves a story and there's a big one here.

They say it's not who you know but how you know 'em and Don Peay is a master at getting to know them. I watched him slobbering all over Governor Herbie at the expo last year and it was pathetic. I was also an exhibitor at a sportsman show in Anchorage Alaska years ago and guess who I saw first-hand trying to weasel his way into Alaska's wildlife riches? None other than our own Don Peay. Alaskans were smart, saw right through him, what he had done here in Utah and they bounced his ass out of Alaska fast. Guess what? Herbie is done and gone this next year. That's one less money grubbing politician that SFW has their hooks into. It isn't all on Don but he got the ball rolling. There are lots of hungry mouths at the feeding trough and they want more.

We need politicians with integrity who are above the filthy lucre from big money guides and SFW. Let's not forget how Utah went against their own guidelines to award SFW a new contract for auction tags and the expo when RMEF made a much better financial offer to the state and were better equipped to make it more successful. HOW EXACTLY COULD THAT HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT CORRUPTNESS ON THE HIGHEST OF LEVELS?

Change has gotta start at the top and trickle down from there. The Governors seat is wide open this next year and there's a lot of hungry politicians eyeing that seat. A loud, organized and united grassroots group of everyday sportsmen could and would have enough votes at the ballot box to guarantee the Governors office to the right person who is with us and committed 100% to change this absolute mess of wildlife mismanagement. We can realistically deliver several hundred thousand votes in the primary and general elections, but the primaries are where it really begins.

SHOW ME A BETTER PLAN! TELL ME A BETTER WAY AND A BETTER TIME THAN NOW WHEN THE BATON IS ABOUT TO CHANGE HANDS!

elkassassin · Dec 7, 2019

LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-19 AT 05:33AM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-19
>AT 11:59?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-19
>AT 11:47?PM (MST)
>
>Wow.
>
>That's a pretty interesting spin.
>
>You are right we all agree
>something is wrong, but using
>prop 5 to force a
>change? Kinda genius.
>
>So the question then is, HOW?
> Lawsuit?
>
>I've read some real dumb thoughts
>on deer. Good thinking.
>
>
>I just went back and looked,
>I don't see anything about
>best scientific practice.
>
>
>Bess. You've spent a year
>yapping. Always about $$$$.

You've Only Noticed Me Yapping for One Year?

Pay attention Hoss!

I Do Go to the EXPO!

It's the Only Legal Gambling I Can do in TARDville!

I Go Mostly to Visit with Friends!

Not One Person in Our Family has ever Drawn an EXPO Tag!

Kinda Like putting in for LE Permits!

I Guess you could Say:

YOU GOTTA PEAY TO PLAY!

I Don't even Mind doing the Time/Donations each Year if We Knew ALL the $$$ was being Used Wisely & Properly!

Maybe someday when I'm in a Wheelchair I'll get a Permit Hoss & You & a Few others can Push me around & Show Me the "BEST IN 25 YEAR DEER HERD" that I Couldn't See this year,should be the Best in 26 Years by next Fall!

>
>
>Look at who runs the RAC/WB.
>
>
>Still going to the expo?
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.

I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

Muleman1 · Dec 8, 2019

Say when and where

deerkiller · Dec 8, 2019

A month ago we were told there was 370k deer in Utah. Now we are taking drastic actions to ?save the deer herd?. Both topics are being spearheaded by the DWR. Have they all died in the last 30 days? which is it? Do we have deer? Or are things really as they seem and something needs to be done about it, quick. Either way, we are being lied to about something. I've never seen anyone accuse the division of being honest and upfront about thing though. Guess this wouldn't be the time they would change that

@screaminseagull

hossblur · Dec 8, 2019

Bess. When Peay gladhands politicians, that money you hand him is how he does it.

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.(by you I mean guys who support $fw/expo).

A 1000 guys protesting the expo?

$7.1 million, 56000 attendees. Why would a governor listen when $fw and their WB can show numbers like that.?

If you support the Expo, REGARDLESS of reason, YOU SUPPORT THE HUNTING IN UTAH.

Numbers don't lie.

And Huntsman, Cox, etc, will look at numbers. And if they are blind, THEY WILL WELCOME YOUR MONEY VIA PEAY, in their campaign chest.

You want to see action. STAY HOME. Otherwise, money talks BS walks. Where is your money going?

I still love you Bess.

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.

elkassassin · Dec 8, 2019

>Bess. When Peay gladhands politicians,
>that money you hand him
>is how he does it.
>
>
>YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.(by you I
>mean guys who support $fw/expo).
>
>
>A 1000 guys protesting the expo?
>
>
>$7.1 million, 56000 attendees. Why
>would a governor listen when
>$fw and their WB can
>show numbers like that.?
>
>If you support the Expo, REGARDLESS
>of reason, YOU SUPPORT THE
>HUNTING IN UTAH.
>
>Numbers don't lie.
>
>And Huntsman, Cox, etc, will look
>at numbers. And if they
>are blind, THEY WILL WELCOME
>YOUR MONEY VIA PEAY, in
>their campaign chest.
>
>You want to see action. STAY
>HOME. Otherwise, money talks
>BS walks. Where is
>your money going?
>
>I still love you Bess.
>
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.

Well Hoss!

You Do Remember When I Nicknamed Don the First Year they Started the EXPO,Right?

Face To Face I Call Him PEAYDAY!

Guess He's Way Smarter than Me!

I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

elkfromabove · Dec 8, 2019

>>Bess. When Peay gladhands politicians,
>>that money you hand him
>>is how he does it.
>>
>>
>>YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.(by you I
>>mean guys who support $fw/expo).
>>
>>
>>A 1000 guys protesting the expo?
>>
>>
>>$7.1 million, 56000 attendees. Why
>>would a governor listen when
>>$fw and their WB can
>>show numbers like that.?
>>
>>If you support the Expo, REGARDLESS
>>of reason, YOU SUPPORT THE
>>HUNTING IN UTAH.
>>
>>Numbers don't lie.
>>
>>And Huntsman, Cox, etc, will look
>>at numbers. And if they
>>are blind, THEY WILL WELCOME
>>YOUR MONEY VIA PEAY, in
>>their campaign chest.
>>
>>You want to see action. STAY
>>HOME. Otherwise, money talks
>>BS walks. Where is
>>your money going?
>>
>>I still love you Bess.
>>
>>
>>
>>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>>PUBLIC LAND.
>
>
>Well Hoss!
>
>You Do Remember When I Nicknamed
>Don the First Year they
>Started the EXPO,Right?
>
>Face To Face I Call Him
>PEAYDAY!
>
>Guess He's Way Smarter than Me!
>
>
Apparently! You're still giving him money!

elkassassin · Dec 8, 2019

>>>Bess. When Peay gladhands politicians,
>>>that money you hand him
>>>is how he does it.
>>>
>>>
>>>YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.(by you I
>>>mean guys who support $fw/expo).
>>>
>>>
>>>A 1000 guys protesting the expo?
>>>
>>>
>>>$7.1 million, 56000 attendees. Why
>>>would a governor listen when
>>>$fw and their WB can
>>>show numbers like that.?
>>>
>>>If you support the Expo, REGARDLESS
>>>of reason, YOU SUPPORT THE
>>>HUNTING IN UTAH.
>>>
>>>Numbers don't lie.
>>>
>>>And Huntsman, Cox, etc, will look
>>>at numbers. And if they
>>>are blind, THEY WILL WELCOME
>>>YOUR MONEY VIA PEAY, in
>>>their campaign chest.
>>>
>>>You want to see action. STAY
>>>HOME. Otherwise, money talks
>>>BS walks. Where is
>>>your money going?
>>>
>>>I still love you Bess.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>>>PUBLIC LAND.
>>
>>
>>Well Hoss!
>>
>>You Do Remember When I Nicknamed
>>Don the First Year they
>>Started the EXPO,Right?
>>
>>Face To Face I Call Him
>>PEAYDAY!
>>
>>Guess He's Way Smarter than Me!
>>
>>
>Apparently! You're still giving him money!
>

Do You Want Me To Lie & Say I Don't Gamble in TARDville EFA?

I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

elkfromabove · Dec 8, 2019

>>>>Bess. When Peay gladhands politicians,
>>>>that money you hand him
>>>>is how he does it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.(by you I
>>>>mean guys who support $fw/expo).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A 1000 guys protesting the expo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>$7.1 million, 56000 attendees. Why
>>>>would a governor listen when
>>>>$fw and their WB can
>>>>show numbers like that.?
>>>>
>>>>If you support the Expo, REGARDLESS
>>>>of reason, YOU SUPPORT THE
>>>>HUNTING IN UTAH.
>>>>
>>>>Numbers don't lie.
>>>>
>>>>And Huntsman, Cox, etc, will look
>>>>at numbers. And if they
>>>>are blind, THEY WILL WELCOME
>>>>YOUR MONEY VIA PEAY, in
>>>>their campaign chest.
>>>>
>>>>You want to see action. STAY
>>>>HOME. Otherwise, money talks
>>>>BS walks. Where is
>>>>your money going?
>>>>
>>>>I still love you Bess.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>>>>PUBLIC LAND.
>>>
>>>
>>>Well Hoss!
>>>
>>>You Do Remember When I Nicknamed
>>>Don the First Year they
>>>Started the EXPO,Right?
>>>
>>>Face To Face I Call Him
>>>PEAYDAY!
>>>
>>>Guess He's Way Smarter than Me!
>>>
>>>
>>Apparently! You're still giving him money!
>>
>
>Do You Want Me To Lie
>& Say I Don't Gamble
>in TARDville EFA?
>
>
>

No, I don't want you to lie, Bess! But, I think you would give more credibility to your claims about how you feel about $FW if you didn't help finance them and PEAYDAY. AND if you ever actually won an EXPO tag, who on this forum are you going to invite to go with you?

Tikka · Dec 8, 2019

?No, I don't want you to lie, Bess! But, I think you would give more credibility to your claims about how you feel about $FW if you didn't help finance them and PEAYDAY. AND if you ever actually won an EXPO tag, who on this forum are you going to invite to go with you??

I'd offer help to anyone who drew a tag...

elkassassin · Dec 8, 2019

Well EFA!

Can't Remember How Many Years the EXPO Has Run?

But Add 24 Years worth of Trying for an Elk Tag to them!

At This Rate I'm Not Sure I'll ever be able to Invite anybody?

But Everybody is Welcome at My Camp anytime!

I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

deadibob · Dec 9, 2019

Well I thought I had come up with a possible solution here and it turned into another #####-fest. It's no wonder the DWR/State and others are raping this states resources without any resistance.

BillyBoB · Dec 9, 2019

I don't believe there is an easy solution. Not to sound that it's unobtainable. I'll remain optimistic.
You would need to convince Mother Nature to play nicely amongst other things.
It's a combination of things that need to happen and take place. Can we convince hunters to better govern themselves in the field regardless if they have a tag in their pocket and do what's best for the herd? Can you convince hunters to put the animals needs first and before their own? I'm not convinced that can happen
Yes, some of the regulations changes needed, we can control. I have listed several ideas in other threads. Especially in the RAC threads. If you care to look.

As hunters, we all should be asking ourselves what we can do to help.
Whether it's donating your time to volunteer on habitat work, yes.....eating more tag soup because you probably should, donate more funds for conservation work, teaching a youth how to hunt.
We all don't have to agree on everything to contribute in a positive way

"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt

Elkslayer2015 · Dec 10, 2019

LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-19 AT 09:18AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-19 AT 09:17?AM (MST)

BillyBoB your exactly right

speaking of youth I try and tell a story I'm not very good at this

2018 was a special year for dad my 14 year old boy got his hunter safety done and wanted to hunt deer more than anything but tags where gone
so I ended up buying him a general season bull tag he was so excited that he got to go hunting.

keep in mind he is one tough kid I don't know many kids that would sleep in a tent when it's 5 degrees outside in 6 inches of snow when the camper is 3 ft away but he did it with no heater.

We had hunted hard for the first weekend but couldn't turn up any bulls.
then the next weekend on Friday I headed down of the hill and picked him up and my younger son and we headed back up on the mountain.

we pulled down into a meadow and the elk was feeding in a flat about 400 yards away,and there was 3 bulls in the herd so we parked the truck and headed to the tree line and a white ford pulled down in and I waved my hands and got him to stop he just waited and watched this unfold but then a blue ford pulled in behind the white ford and I tried stopping him but he spooled up the turbo and went right around the truck and tried running the elk down pushed them right back in the tree's

I don't know who was more pissed off me or my 10 year-old my 14 year old said that's not right but I guess that's what you get when you hunt public land lack of respect so I explained to both my son's you remember this day and don't ever be that guy have respect for other's

That weekend was a bust we didn't even see a bull just cows so we headed back home.
he went to school for 2 days and they where out of school for the rest of the week,so me and my son headed up early Wednesday morning and we where the only ones in this area and we had bulls screaming all over I'll never forget the look on his face so we made a game plan and made are way towards the elk.

I left it up to him to tell me when it was legal shooting hours and he tapped me on the shoulder and said it's time so we made are way over into this drainage and I had spotted the cows.

so we slowly made are way over the hill and I spotted the bull he shot and missed I told him to calm down and squeeze the trigger you got time then ka boom thumped him right behind the shoulder he walked about 30 yards and expired he shot a 5 point bull and he was on cloud 9 and dad was so proud of him so I he help me get him gutted and we where on are way back to the truck and I told him you know what would be cool if we could double down today.

so on are way down the only road that leads to this drainage I spotted a group of elk I hurried and got out of my truck and found a very small spike in the herd I had to look twice to make sure he was legal and he was so I shot and dropped him in his tracks my boy starts laughing and I said what's so funny he say's I shot a bigger bull than you dad I laughed and I said yeah you did but we did doubled down together.

2019
my son had a archery deer tag I had DH tag and a 3 season elk tag

so opening morning of the deer hunt I ask him what kind of buck he wanted and his reply was I wont shoot anything smaller than a 3 point,me and my buddy looked at each other and said yeah right your first deer hunt and your going to pass on a buck okay we will see.

by Dam he did he passed on spikes and 2 points and 1 small 3 point I could not believe it I was like I got my work cut out for me I only seen a couple of 3 points and a only one 4 point I did find him a 3 point and a 4 point running together,and we ended up hunting them till the end of the hunt we just couldn't close the deal

I told him we have the extended hunt and he got a shot at a 3x3 but missed,he was bummed for about 5 minutes then he said on to bigger and better right dad I've always said that to my kids.

It got down to two days left of the hunt and I told him if you want to kill a doe I'm okay with it,he said no dad not till the last day and he refused to shoot a spike period wouldn't you know it he passed on the doe's on Friday before the hunt ended.

Then the last day we came across 1 doe and 2 fawns and they where really good size fawns I let him make the choice and he said nope I rather go home with nothing I said okay then

my son said if I don't kill a deer I'm okay with that at least I know I have done my part on saving one for next year and besides I had more fun hunting with you

I couldn't be more proud of my son I really think it's important to teach them the right way at a young age.

Sorry for the long story.

Tikka · Dec 10, 2019

That's a pretty damn good story!!!

deadibob · Dec 10, 2019

>I don't believe there is an
>easy solution. Not to sound
>that it's unobtainable. I'll remain
>optimistic.
> You would need to convince
>Mother Nature to play nicely
>amongst other things.
>It's a combination of things that
>need to happen and take
>place. Can we convince hunters
>to better govern themselves in
>the field regardless if they
>have a tag in their
>pocket and do what's best
>for the herd? Can you
>convince hunters to put the
>animals needs first and before
>their own? I'm not convinced
>that can happen
>Yes, some of the regulations changes
>needed, we can control. I
>have listed several ideas in
>other threads. Especially in the
>RAC threads. If you care
>to look.
>
>As hunters, we all should be
>asking ourselves what we can
>do to help.
>Whether it's donating your time to
>volunteer on habitat work, yes.....eating
>more tag soup because you
>probably should, donate more funds
>for conservation work, teaching a
>youth how to hunt.
>We all don't have to agree
>on everything to contribute in
>a positive way
>
>
>
>
>
>"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak.
>So
>we must and we will."
>Theadore Roosevelt

So if hunters have a tag in their pocket what in your opinion is the best thing for them to do for the herd as you say? Stay home? If DWR was properly doing their job, hunters wouldn't have a tag in their pocket unless the right thing to do was to fill that tag. You can't give someone a tag and say to them don't use it.

If herds are managed correctly, nobody should need to eat tag soup unless they feel the need to do so, not because the DWR isn't doing their job.

Yes we should all do our individual parts but that isn't going to change the game until the DWR is forced to do their job. THEY HAVE ONE JOB AND THEY WON'T DO IT!

Vanilla · Dec 10, 2019

>So if hunters have a tag
>in their pocket what in
>your opinion is the best
>thing for them to do
>for the herd as you
>say? Stay home? If DWR
>was properly doing their job,
>hunters wouldn't have a tag
>in their pocket unless the
>right thing to do was
>to fill that tag. You
>can't give someone a tag
>and say to them don't
>use it.

Yup! If I have a permit in my pocket I should not be looked down on for legally killing an animal to fill said permit. That's just nonsense.

I'm also not looking down on anyone for deciding to pass on any legal game they choose. It's just that, a choice. Neither one of us is right or wrong in making that choice if we are following the law.

elkfromabove · Dec 10, 2019

>
>If herds are managed correctly, nobody
>should need to eat tag
>soup unless they feel the
>need to do so, not
>because the DWR isn't doing
>their job.
>
>Yes we should all do our
>individual parts but that isn't
>going to change the game
>until the DWR is forced
>to do their job. THEY
>HAVE ONE JOB AND THEY
>WON'T DO IT!

And that ONE JOB is what?

BillyBoB · Dec 10, 2019

LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-19 AT 02:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-19 AT 02:01?PM (MST)

Dead....
I'm saying if we as hunters go into the field to hunt and see the herds are suffering, low on numbers, no deer to see, very low number of bucks, herd health is down, then we have the choice to not fill our tags. Regardless to how many tags were issued out from the division.
If the division did a better job of allocations and issued the right amount of tags, then the situation I just listed wouldn't warrant hunters needing to be selfless.
Not enough hunters are willing to sacrifice their tag (whether you want to stay home or not) when they see things are looking grim.
If we can't force the division to make the right decisions, then we can at least help by governing ourselves in the field.
It makes absolutely no sense to me when I read a concluded hunt story where the hunter admits to seeing very few deer and acknowledges the herds are in bad shape yet still hangs their tag on a yearling buck or doe.
To me, that's not helping the situation.
Another example:
If I want to see more mature bucks during my GS hunt, am I doing myself any favors by killing a yearling buck every single year? Absolutely not!
We all can play a role and impact the situation in a unit as hunters by the decisions we make on our hunts.
We can't always control the situation but we can control ourselves that can affect the situation.

Vanilla
This isn't about what is right or wrong or illegal or legal.
This isn't about what other people will think.
This is simple.....
Our decisions in the field impact the outcome of the herd.
We control our decisions.
Our decisions as hunters have just as much of an impact as the state does when they issue tag numbers.
You?re right! it is a choice.
We have that choice!

We are in a time now where hunters are scouting and using trail cameras more than any other time. Hunters have the tools and technology to make rational and conservative decisions in the field by knowing herd and habitat conditions well before our hunt even begins.

To many hunters with the ?me,me,me? mentality and the ?it's their fault? attitude. Too many killers and not enough conservationists.
WE ALL PLAY A ROLE

"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt

grizzly · Dec 10, 2019

BillyBoB, I get what you're saying. If somebody believes too many tags are issued but then shoots the first "legal" deer they see because DWR said they could, then there is an argument to be made that they were being hypocritical.

We have the right to our individual opinions as to whether the deer herds are managed appropriately. But we also are the ones that hold the tag and pull the trigger and ultimately that is what controls the herds... not the tags issued.

DWR could issue unlimited tags and if a large contingency voluntarily held off for a few years and self-policed it would be comparable to a tag reduction.

With that said, the people that feel the tag numbers are appropriate right now have no obligation to not fill their tag just because there is a group that thinks they shouldn't.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

Ask yourself if you agree with the following statement...

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News

BillyBoB · Dec 10, 2019

LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-19 AT 02:34PM (MST)[p]+1
Exactly!
Grizzly gets it!
Yet it doesn't always have to be a result of too many tags being issued. There are other conditions that affect the outcome that can and is sometimes out of our control.
However,
We control ourselves.

"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt

deadibob · Dec 10, 2019

>
>>
>>If herds are managed correctly, nobody
>>should need to eat tag
>>soup unless they feel the
>>need to do so, not
>>because the DWR isn't doing
>>their job.
>>
>>Yes we should all do our
>>individual parts but that isn't
>>going to change the game
>>until the DWR is forced
>>to do their job. THEY
>>HAVE ONE JOB AND THEY
>>WON'T DO IT!
>
>And that ONE JOB is what?
>

Managing wildlife.

deadibob · Dec 10, 2019

>LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-19
>AT 02:34?PM (MST)
>
>+1
>Exactly!
>Grizzly gets it!
>Yet it doesn't always have to
>be a result of too
>many tags being issued. There
>are other conditions that affect
>the outcome that can and
>is sometimes out of our
>control.
>However,
>We control ourselves.
>
>
>
>
>"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak.
>So
>we must and we will."
>Theadore Roosevelt

I understand the point you are saying about not filling a tag as a way to help animal numbers but if the DWR is doing their job properly that would not be an issue because tag sales would be restricted as needed. This isn't happening. When they do cut tags on a unit it is in very minimal amounts and they often add those tag numbers to other units.This mismanagement and overhunting is where the problem lies in the first place.

Out of 90,000+ tag holders each year, how many of them do you realistically think would be willing to go along with purposely eating tag soup? I doubt you could get 5% of them on board. If the mentality of going to hunt and purposely not harvest an animal, who would hunt? It would be better to just go hiking with a camera. When would you say it is acceptable to fill a tag? If it is a buck of a lifetime, 180"+, what if somebody wants steaks or jerky, is that still allowable?

Vanilla · Dec 10, 2019

We have a name for those that obtain tags specifically planning to not hunt and to keep the tag out of the hands of someone who would hunt.

PETA

middlefork · Dec 11, 2019

With the current success rates for general season at 30 - 40 percent there must be a lot of hunters already on board.

elkfromabove · Dec 11, 2019

>>LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-19
>>AT 02:34?PM (MST)
>>
>>+1
>>Exactly!
>>Grizzly gets it!
>>Yet it doesn't always have to
>>be a result of too
>>many tags being issued. There
>>are other conditions that affect
>>the outcome that can and
>>is sometimes out of our
>>control.
>>However,
>>We control ourselves.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak.
>>So
>>we must and we will."
>>Theadore Roosevelt
>
>I understand the point you are
>saying about not filling a
>tag as a way to
>help animal numbers but if
>the DWR is doing their
>job properly that would not
>be an issue because tag
>sales would be restricted as
>needed. This isn't happening. When
>they do cut tags on
>a unit it is in
>very minimal amounts and they
>often add those tag numbers
>to other units.This mismanagement and
>overhunting is where the problem
>lies in the first place.
>
>
>Out of 90,000+ tag holders each
>year, how many of them
>do you realistically think would
>be willing to go along
>with purposely eating tag soup?
>I doubt you could get
>5% of them on board.
>If the mentality of going
>to hunt and purposely not
>harvest an animal, who would
>hunt? It would be better
>to just go hiking with
>a camera. When would you
>say it is acceptable to
>fill a tag? If it
>is a buck of a
>lifetime, 180"+, what if somebody
>wants steaks or jerky, is
>that still allowable?

So, overhunting BUCKS is one of the reasons we have low deer numbers? I wasn't aware that BUCKS are now delivering, nursing and protecting fawns. When did that start happening?

hogg_65 · Dec 11, 2019

LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-19 AT 09:49AM (MST)[p]Most of the guys with deer tags, that choose not to fill them are Dedicated Hunters. Not because they aren't finding bucks, they are more selective of what they harvest. I'm not saying all Dedicated tag holders, but most of them. Also quite a few guys here on this site. Now, not harvesting a buck doesn't grow more deer in the units, but it means more deer survive the hunting season.

Zeke · Dec 11, 2019

>With the current success rates for
>general season at 30 -
>40 percent there must be
>a lot of hunters already
>on board.

A small fraction might be "on board" but the large majority just of those unsuccessful hunters just don't see the deer because they're not there (contrary to what the F&G says about deer numbers).

I agree with both self control and proper game counts and management. I think it's going to take both to help the herds.

And yes, I do believe that a healthy population of MATURE bucks will help increase deer numbers for all the scientific reasons.

Zeke

#livelikezac

Zeke · Dec 11, 2019

>
>So, overhunting BUCKS is one of
>the reasons we have low
>deer numbers? I wasn't aware
>that BUCKS are now delivering,
>nursing and protecting fawns. When
>did that start happening?

Come on now! You know better than that.

Mature bucks don't drop fawns but they DO compress the rut and more fawns drop all at once keeping some from predation.

Yes, you knew that but decided to overlook that fact.

Zeke

#livelikezac

Castnshoot · Dec 11, 2019

>Mature bucks don't drop fawns but
>they DO compress the rut
>and more fawns drop all
>at once keeping some from
>predation.

Most Logical Utah hunter well understand that.

elkassassin · Dec 11, 2019

>We have a name for those
>that obtain tags specifically planning
>to not hunt and to
>keep the tag out of
>the hands of someone who
>would hunt.
>
>PETA

I Could probably Live with PETA for a couple Days!

I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

Tikka · Dec 11, 2019

"Come on now! You know better than that.

Mature bucks don't drop fawns but they DO compress the rut and more fawns drop all at once keeping some from predation.

Yes, you knew that but decided to overlook that fact."

Zeke

BINGO!!!
Thank you Zeke!!!

I tried to portray that on another post, I don't believe my delivery was as good as yours...

elkfromabove · Dec 11, 2019

LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-19 AT 02:33PM (MST)[p]>
>>
>>So, overhunting BUCKS is one of
>>the reasons we have low
>>deer numbers? I wasn't aware
>>that BUCKS are now delivering,
>>nursing and protecting fawns. When
>>did that start happening?
>
>Come on now! You know better
>than that.
>
>Mature bucks don't drop fawns but
>they DO compress the rut
>and more fawns drop all
>at once keeping some from
>predation.
>
>Yes, you knew that but decided
>to overlook that fact.
>
>Zeke
>
>
>#livelikezac

No, I didn't overlook that fact! It just isn't the significant issue you think or claim it is.

https://muleyfreak.com/2016/11/09/science-behind-buckdoe-ratios/

Then, to see how it's being done:
https://wildlifeecology.byu.edu/CurrentProjects/MuleDeer/

If leaving more bucks was the solution, then the Paunsaugunt, Henry Mountains, Elk Ridge, Book Cliffs and Dolores Triangle (the only LE units listed with separate populations) would be overflowing with deer by now. Is it happening? NOPE! The Pauns and Henrys have slight increases, but are currently dropping and the others have decreases. Per the Archive RAC Meeting Packets:

Year - Pauns - Henry - Elk R - Book C - Dolores
2011 - 5,200 - 1,400 - NA - 6,200 - NA
2012 - 5,200 - 1,900 - NA - 7,300 - 2,600
2013 - 5,200 - 1,800 - 800 - 7,850 - 2,600
2014 - 5,200 - 2,200 - 800 - 8,600 - 2,300
2015 - 5,400 - 2,400 - 800 - 7,750 - 2,300
2016 - 5,900 - 2,200 - 900 - 7,100 - 2,100
2017 - 6,000 - 1,900 - 800 - 7,100 - 1,900
2018 - 5,600 - 1,600 - 750 - 5,500 - 1,900

From Wyoming Game & Fish Department:
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/con...ive/MULEDEER_ANTLERPOINTREGS_REVIE0006790.pdf
Note pages 10-12 - Table I - TOTAL POPULATION INCREASE - All of them are NO's!

I have others if that ain't enough!

I've periodically looked for several years to try to find a study or data that shows a significant long term increase in deer populations as a result of antler point restrictions or high buck to doe ratios, but I have yet to find one. Some show short term 2 or 3 year increases, but they are always followed by a leveling or decrease. At some point, too many mature bucks become a biological liability, not an asset. Surplus bucks need to be removed.

I look at it this way. A decrease in deer populations is a symptom of a problem (or problems) and you can't fix the problem by merely managing the symptoms.

Tikka · Dec 11, 2019

First of all I wouldn't take ANY information from a MuleyFreak page no matter who wrote it...

Second there you go again trusting DWR buck numbers on limited entry or general units...
Thanks

BillyBoB · Dec 11, 2019

It is a symptom of problemS
There is no simple solution
Many have expressed their opinion on what those problems are.

I don't trust those counts
As for myself, I believe my own strict,restrictive harvest selection (which does usually lead to tag soup) does benefit the herd. Regardless if I am right, I simply choose not to shoot yearling bucks for a handful of reasons. It just doesn't excite me. Yes I will shoot them with my camera instead.

I pay close attention to the number of fawns I see. I have voiced concern to F&G about seeing spotted fawns in the fall.

These deer are pressured for too long and too far into the year in my mind. Between hunters and winter weather, it's relentless.

I am adding volunteer work to my list of things to do to help and I believe we all should be asking ourselves what else we can be doing to help. Together we all can make a difference.
Just my 0.02
I enjoy the conversation

"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt