Utah Odds - Points Averaging

H

HuntElk4Fun_

Active Member
Messages
502
Trying to seperate this from the fees thread:

This loophole that allows someone to pony of Grandma's (or whoever) points needs some attention. The bottom line is we are all worried about odds and this directly lowers everyone's odds. When jimmy chitwood comes off his waiting period and puts in with grandma with max points, he immediately passes alot of us right out of the gate. Grandma turns her tag in (thus completing the loophole) and next year jimmy chitwood's 14 yr old son puts in already 1/2 max, passing us again!

Unless you have max points, your odds are that great. Things like this are hurting them even more!

The ultimate quesion I have:

What kind of fire does this have under it? Anyone know? Is it something on UDWR's radar and/or do we need to put it there?

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
This was something that the SFW board voted to have our people try to get fixed. I think it should easily be fixed.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
DID YOU GUYS SEE THE EBAY ADD A FEW MONTHS AGO AVERTISING MAX POINTS AND YOU COULD PUT IN FOR A HUNT WITH THEM? DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF IT WAS SOLD?
 
DL,

I don't think the points thing sold. Why buy it when most people have granny to lean on?

One guy here has mentioned he has max to help his son. That is admirable. Working the system the other way is unfair. It is sad the abusers won over.

I do not understand the dual thing. If one of two who hunt together draws why not make a great trip out of it and hope to go again soon when the other draws? Point averaging and dual applications needs to be at the very least reduced to the lowest point holder total. All points spent if they draw.

I will say it again, I can go back in the draw at 9 in 5 years the way it stands. Not right in my book. My wife has the points and she is using the points. They are hers not mine.

Buy a license and pay up front with no averaging. I don't think the DWR needs to offer credit too.
 
Dwr just needs to stop allowing tags to be turned back for refunds. Death or serious illness the only exceptions.That would stop point averaging and the drawing , scouting and tag returning by max point holders year after year.
 
I'M GONNA TELL YOU WHAT I THINK!!!

LETS SAY ktc'S DAUGHTER WANTS TO DRAW AN L.E. DEER PERMIT & HUNT DEER FIRST IN HER LIFE ON A QUALITY HUNT!!!

SO SHE STARTS DRAWING & EARNING POINTS!!!

IT MIGHT TAKE HER 5-6 YEARS TO DRAW THAT L.E. DEER PERMIT!!!

SHE ALSO WANTS TO BE LIKE PROUD PAPPA!!!

AH,HUNT THEM BIG STINKY IN THE RUT L.E. BULLS WITH A RIFLE,DID YOU HEAR THAT DeerLove???

ktc GETS TO THINKING(CUZZ HE AIN'T NO DUMMY WHEN IT COMES TO MATH!!!)THERES A CHANCE SIS COULD BE DOWN 20-25 POINTS ON L.E. ELK BEFORE SHE PULLS THE L.E. DEER PERMIT!!!

MEANWHILE ktc HAS GOT THIS BATTLE PLAN,I'LL PUT ####### IN FOR POINTS ONLY & EARN POINTS,THAT WAY WHEN SIS DRAWS THE L.E. BUCK PERMIT,SHE CAN PUT IN WITH ###### AND START OUT WITH A FEW L.E. ELK POINTS!!!

THINK ABOUT IT!!!

THE YOUNGER GENERATION IS GETTING SHAFTED!!!

SOME OF THEM STARTING OUT SO LOW ON THE TOTEM POLE THEY'D NEVER EVER DRAW!!!

DO NOT,I REPEAT,DO NOT SCREW WITH AVERAGING POINTS,LEAVE IT AS IS!!!

IF YOU BOYS CHANGE THIS YOU'RE TAKING CANDY FROM A CHILD & I HOPE YOU BURN IN HELL!!!

IT'S THE ONLY CHANCE THE YOUNGER KIDS HAVE!!!

I HOPE THE HELL YOU'RE ALL LISTENING???

THE ONLY bobcat THAT MIGHT OF INVENTED THE PLAN BUT IT'S FOR KIDS ONLY!!!
 
I don't have a big problem with point averaging, except the situation you describe where one person with 12 points puts in with somebody with 0 for, lets say the Book Cliffs archery deer hunt, and they both draw, AND THEN THE GUY WITH 12 TURNS IN HIS TAG and the guy with 0 gets to still go hunting!

Currently, if you know somebody with 12+ deer points you could put in together and draw the book cliffs archery deer tag guaranteed. Looking at the point holder stats, there is not many people with that many deer points so i would not have a problem with these limited people "grouping up" and drawing with a low point holder, it is when the high guy turns his tag in to do it again next year that I have the problem with.

Long story short: Keep the averaging thing, just make it so if one member of a group turns in a tag they all have to. Or, make it so nobody can turn in a tag, no questions.

Lastly, I might as well say it again: Getting rid of the conservation and convention tags would put 600 or so tags back into the drawing, helping our odds far more than any idea being discussed on this thread.

-RPinenut
 
I would say do away with the point averaging. Do it just like every other state. It will stop the abuse.

Hiker

Proverbs 3:5-6
 
Does anyone think by eliminating the points averaging and eliminating the abuse, people will draw at some point? Like kids just starting? It also seems to me that the max and one point less than max people are very slow moving through the system. I just have bad luck, some will try for Pahvant until they draw, but are there other reasons? Does max for deer guarantee the tag any where? It almost seems max for deer is impossible unless you keep drawing, scouting, and giving it back until they find that 50" wide 298" B&C deer.

The scenerio NUT puts out there is scary but true. Returning tags because scouting was not as fruitful as once thought is a bad thing too. Returning tags, as mentioned, should be limited to death, serious illness, or military service. There may be a few other reasons.

If a max point guy is used for averaging benefits, does he lose half of his points to the other guy if he returns the tag? Or does he keep them all when he returns the tag?

You disagreeing with me bess!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-06 AT 06:30PM (MST)[p]Fixing the loophole won't make a huge difference, but some. One thing about the Utah system is the kids have a shot out of the gate vs. a preference point system. I just don't thinks it's fair some kid gets 6 points out of the gate cheating off of somebody's points they never will use.

I'm in support of something that keeps the system, just removes the loophole. The averaging concept has it's place, it's the abuse that hurts us all in the long run.

pinenut- agreed as well on conservation tags... give us some back! :)

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
NOT DISAGRREING WITH YOU ktc,JUST THINKING ABOUT THE FUTURE GENERATION!!!

OF COURSE SOME UTARDS WILL ABUSE IT!!!

NOTHING WRONG WITH POINTS AVERAGING,JUST DON'T LET THEM TURN THE TAG BACK & KEEP THEIR POINTS!!!

I OFTEN WONDER IF ANYTHING LESS THAN MAX POINTS IS WORTH A DAMN???

THEN LOW & BEHOLD SOMEBODY DRAWS WITH 2 FRICKEN POINTS!!!

JUST THINK ktc,YOU MIGHT START DRAWING WITH SEVERAL POINTS IN 5 YEARS,LOL!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT DID NOT AGRRE WITH THE ORIGINAL SYSTEM MANY MOONS AGO,NOW DO YOU BOYS BELIEVE ME???
 
FinLittle and Pinenut have it right, in my opinion.

The problem isn't that the father with 10 points wants to put in with his 14 year old who has no points and they average out at 5 points. They draw their tag and go have a great hunt.

The problem is the person with ten points Who puts in with someone and they average out at 5. They draw tags and then the person that had 10 points turns the tag back in a gets all 10 reinstated. So they never spent 5 of those points. The EASY fix would be to "charge" the person 5 points. They can turn their tag back in and get 5 points back (the average) but not 10. It is easy.

KTC I see no problem in waiting 5 years, putting in with your wife and both of you enjoying a hunt together. I see nothing wrong in wanting to hunt with family and averaging points may help to hunters hunt together.

Or just make the tags non-refundable except for death or military service. That would be easy to do also.
 
I NEVER KNEW THE PERSON COULD GET ALL HIS/HER POINTS BACK???

THATS BULLCRAP!!!

IF YOU'RE GOING TO AVERAGE THEN YOU'LL GET AN AVERAGE AMOUNT OF POINTS BACK!!!

THE ONLY bobcat LOOKING FOR SOMEBODY WITH MAX POINTS THAT I CAN PUT IN WITH IN 2007!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-06 AT 09:55PM (MST)[p]All point systems should be eliminated. Just throw the names in the hat and see who gets lucky. Less corruption, less confusing, truer draw odds. Put a long waiting (3-5 years) period on any hunt that has less than 10% draw odds and that will elminate anyone from getting a primo tag two years in a row and pissing everyone off.
 
moneyman!!!

SO YOU WANT ME TO THROW MY POINTS AWAY???

LETS SEE,AFTER PLAYING THE GAME SINCE IT STARTED,I SHOULD JUST THROW IT AWAY???

SOMETIMES I FEEL ANY NEW SYSTEM WOULD BE BETTER BUT WHO KNOWS???

THE ONLY bobcat DOWN A FEW,BUT I'M HOPEING THERES HOPE OR MAYBE LUCK WITHIN 5 YEARS!!!
 
If the person with the most points averages with someone and draws then they should loose all their points why should they maintain what points were not used????... The averaging points is being abused and should be done away with.
 
>
>moneyman!!!
>
>SO YOU WANT ME TO THROW
>MY POINTS AWAY???
>
>LETS SEE,AFTER PLAYING THE GAME SINCE
>IT STARTED,I SHOULD JUST THROW
>IT AWAY???
>
>SOMETIMES I FEEL ANY NEW SYSTEM
>WOULD BE BETTER BUT WHO
>KNOWS???
>
>THE ONLY bobcat DOWN A FEW,BUT
>I'M HOPEING THERES HOPE OR
>MAYBE LUCK WITHIN 5 YEARS!!!
>



I'll rephrase -

All states should stop issueing new bonus points. Once all the BP's have been used, we are back on a level playing field.
 
To do away with points averaging. It should be based on the lowest point holder on the group app., just like in most states.

It's a loophole that will hurt me personally because I've been applying my wife for 9 years. My plan was once I drew my elk tag, to apply with her and jump ahead of everyone else and get a deer tag.
BUT, when I look at the odds and the direction they're headed, I see that the future generation is going to get the shaft because of my (our) loopholes.

It's time to get that loophole that gives huge advantage to people who are applying large numbers of friends and relatives. Some people have been applying family and friends for 8-10 years. If a person had 10 people with 5-10 points for various species, they would have a HUGE advantage over everyone else.

GOT TO STOP IT!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
ALSO, had I thought about it during our board meeting, I would propose that we do away with tag returns unless a person has illness, death in family, etc.

This has also been abused. People scout an area then if they don't find a big animal, they return the tag and get their points back.

The problem with this is hat then the DWR offers the tag to the next person in line. When it's offered, it's usually just a few days prior to the hunt. That person then has no opportunity to scout or plan for the hunt.
Sure, that person could decline the tag, but what if they were an alternate who had only 3 points? They may never draw again? They almost surely have to take the tag, even though they have no time to prepare or scout.

That is also something that needs to be eliminated. Maybe we can soon get it changed.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Founder,

Why do you always "ASSUME" that "EVERYONE" is abusing the system when say a 10 pt and a 1 pt put in together?

Are you telling me that a father who has been puttin in does not put in with say his younger son, or a grandfather with his grandson? Give me a break!!

Boy.....I sure get tired of the SFW running the Utah DWR. ( Got ride of the AR-301, trying to get ride of point averaging,etc ).

It is to bad that what the average "JOE" has to say at the RAC meetings has little effect.

Let people put in together,average points and take away the option of turning tags back in except for illness, deaths, etc.
Think about it.....if one of these say two people who draw a tag does not hunt, then the DWR picked up an extra $280 and no additional elk "take" that year. This also means that the overall kill percentage for that unit would be lower and if Utah is managing right.....more tags issued the next year. See, you will have better odds in the future ( HA )

Heck, I Colorado I have what I consider allot of points but they will not get me into one of the premium units. Sure wish I could point average and go with one of my freinds in lesser units instead of waiting for them to have enough points to draw these units.

You guys that are against point averaging are acting like this is what is hurting your chances to draw. Heck, SFW and the other conservation groups that get all the conservation tags hurt your chances allot more.

Founder if you really want to help the average hunter, then get SWF to set an example and give back all your conservation tags in 2006! Maybe the other consewrvation groups will follow your example? Probably not since it is about the $$$$$$$$ that you are all for in raising fee's.

Arizona issue far more elk tags than Utah and has less elk in their state. Come on Utah, think about it!

Oh yea I forgot....just becasue you drew a limited entry rifle permit in Utah you should have the right to drive right up to a 400" bull that is bugling and shoot him with no one else on the mountain.
 
ElkSlayer-

I sure miss that AR-301 tag. Sure was a great way to allow a little more flexibility out there, plus gave those of us on waiting periods a shot at something. Now I just take my money out of state. :(

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
Phase out the points=end the bickering, I seldom see any complaints about NM's draw, as opposed to AZ and UT.

It is fair, no room for cheats!
 
If Utah would stop issueing so many rut tags, they could up the numbers and improve draw odds for everyone without excluding the finacially challenged.

Phase out the points
Shift tags out of the rut
Keep the waiting periods
 
DID YOU HEAR THAT ktc???

HAND YOUR RUT TAG IN!!!

MUST BE UN-ETHICAL???

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING HOW MANY TAGS YOU JOKERS WOULD ISSUE IN L.E. UNITS,NEVER MIND I DON'T CARE TO KNOW!!!
 
That's a great idea moneyman! The problem is, can you imagine
the screaming you'd hear from all those guys that have been applying
for tha rut hunt for the last 10 years?
 
So what? Things change. Give them some tissue and a cup of warm milk and they will feel better soon.

What, you guys can't find a bull unless he's screaming at you?

and I never said it was unethical.
 
Points averaging is simply a system that rewards hunters who have a friend, wife, aunt or uncle who has a boat load of points who now the hunter can apply with to jump ahead of thousands of people.
Doing away with points averaging is a no-brainer. Points used to draw should be based on the number of points that the person with the fewest in a group has.

I think the UDWR will easily pass this one as it is obvious that it is a huge advantage to some and a huge disadvantage to most. I think this will change real soon, I think it will be changed by next years app. season. I'd be VERY surprised if someone anywhere had a GOOD reason why it is good.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I GUESS WANTING TO HUNT WITH YOUR KIDS AIN'T A GOOD ENOUGH REASON???

THIS COMMING YEAR MOST KIDS WILL BE AROUND 14 POINTS DOWN!!!

THEY'LL BE THINKING!!!

SHOULD I PUT IN FOR DEER???

OR!!!

SHOULD I PUT IN FOR ELK???

EITHER WAY ITS A BAD SITUATION!!!

I DON'T SEE ON ANY OF YOUR PROPOSED CHANGES WHERE ANYTHING GOOD IS CHANGING FOR THE YOUNGER HUNTERS COMMING UP???

I'M NOT BANGING ON THE SFW BUT MAYBE ALL ORGANIZATIONS/GROUPS COULD PUT SOME THOUGHT IN ON KIDS & THERE CHANCES/ODDS TO EVER HUNT L.E. UNITS!!!

GOOD GOD DO THE MATH!!!

I DAMN NEAR GRADUATED IN ALTAMONT & I CAN FIGURE THIS OUT!!!

SOUNDS LIKE THE ORGANIZATIONS DON'T WANT POINT AVERAGING,IS IT ALREADY A DONE DEAL WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT???

THE TRUTH PLEASE???

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING MAYBE THERE COULD BE SOME GOOD CHANGES MADE THAT MIGHT ENTICE THE YOUNGER HUNTERS RATHER THAN TELL THEM,OH,YOUR TO YOUNG TO EVER DRAW AN L.E. PERMIT IN UTAH,YOU MIGHT AS WELL SAY TO HELL WITH IT!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-06 AT 07:20PM (MST)[p]Founder- You fail to realize the simple abuse of the system could be stopped very easily. The dad putting in with his 14 year old to go hunting is not an abuse of the system. The abuse lies in the NonHunter who puts in with someone until they draw and then the tag is turned back in and all the points + 1 are reinstated. Then they do it again next year.

The solutions would seem to be a no brainer. Don't allow points to be reinstated. If someone turns a tag back in they do not recieve their points... Except for military service. This would also exclude the "Draw and Scout" guys who have high points and draw every year only to turn the tag back in if they don't find the buck /bull they are looking for. You could also have it where the points reinstated was what the average of the group was.... and no + 1.

To do away with the average would hurt more than it would help. Simply charging a higher fee to apply and doing away with reinstatement would weed out the abusers.
 
Founder,

Are you not listening? I have read multiple people say THE good reason for points averaging. Kids! Man if that is not good enough? You guy's seem to really have your sights set on this one. Reread the posts and vote as the sportsmen would have you vote. Points averaging helps one person a bit and hurts the person with high points.

Simply close the loophole allowing for the max point holder to return the permit. It is simple and you won't bet screwing the kids and our future! I am not sure why you can't see the up side to this. Bobcat is about to blow a gasket! and like it or not he is RIGHT!!!!!
 
Points averaging for kids is ONLY good for the kids who have a dad who has been applying and built the points up. What about all the other kids. To heck with them????????

Why should your kid get an advantage over someone elses kid? It's still an advantage to someone, whether they are 14 or 50. Doesn't matter. If there is a loophole that allows someone to jump ahead of all others, in needs to be closed.

We have loopholes for jumping ahead of everyone else, they are landowner tags and conservation tags.

The whole point of my proposal is to improve the odds for ourselves and kids, EVERYONE. You guys want to keep a loophole that only benefits a few people who happen to have been applying mom, grandpa, grandma, uncle Tom, Ted, Bill, George, John, Fred, Peanut, Oscar, Muffin, Lucy, Paulie, Fluffy and anyone else for the past 10 years. None of which ever bought a tag in the past 10 years or helped fund anything that has created our trophy areas.

No Way do I see Points Averaging as a Good Thing for our kids or ourselves.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
THIS IS LIKE PLAYING POKER IN VEGAS!!!

IF A GUY STARTS READING THE CARDS HE GETS HIS ASS THROWED OUT!!!

BUT IF A DUMMY/SUCKER WANTS TO PLAY NOT A PROBLEM,THEY'LL LET YOU LOSE ALL NIGHT!!!

I DO BELIEVE AS SMART AS YOU ARE FOUNDER YOU CAN COME UP WITH SOMETHING BETTER THAN ELIMINATING THE POINTS AVERAGING TO IMPROVE THE ODDS???

I'VE ASKED FOR NUMBERS,PLEASE???

THE ONLY bobcat GONNA SAY F-IT,I'M GOING TO BED BEFORE THE GASKET COMPLETELY BLOWS!!!
 
Points averaging has NOTHING to do with odds. It simply a loophole that needs to be closed. Nothing to with odds.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
SORRY!!!

YOU'RE OUT NUMBERED ON ELIMINATING THE POINTS AVERAGING & IF THERE WAS AN ETHICAL VOTE THE ODDS AVERAGING WOULD STAY!!!

I'M STILL WAITING FOR NUMBERS FROM SOMEBODY LETTING ME KNOW HOW MANY UN-ETHICALS THERE ARE WORKING THE CURRANT SYSTEM???

I KNOW THERE ARE SOME,I'M NOT DOUBTING IT!!!

WHEN SOMEBODY CHECKS INTO IT YOU'LL SEE I'M NOT ONE OF THEM!!!

I THINK A FEW RULES COULD BE TWEAKED WITHOUT ELIMINATING THE POINTS AVERAGING,WHY IS IT FOUNDER YOU WON'T EVEN CONSIDER THAT???

IS IT ALREADY A DONE DEAL WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT???

I'M GONNA BE REAL AGGITATED IF I FIND OUT AN ORGANIZATION ELIMINATED IT OR GETS IT ELIMINATED!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHAT THE HELL GOOD MY WORD IS???
 
bess,

You are right, I am sitting this one out. I say reset things back to zero and try something better.;-) That would be best for me.

I cannot side with you on this one buddy. That eBay thing pissed me off. I know some folks here have tried to help their kids, which I have no problem with, it is the others trying to gain an advantage through some quick thinking. Do you believe it would be right for me to jump back in at 9? I can! Some say yes, and maybe it is ok for some, but not me. Maybe points averaging would be ok if one is a youth? After they lose youth status they are on their own like the old days? There is no way that could be abused.

You do ask a legit question. How many tags have been returned for bonus points reinstated? However, even if the tag is not handed back in 2 people got tags who did not get them the way it was intended. I see one person who does not want one and one who did not wait. Even if a kid gets one, which is alright, BUT they did not wait. You are talking to a guy who had 25 years invested in annual rejection.

Here is the bottom line with me. If a kid wants a tag they have tons of things to do while they wait that long wait. Cows, spikes, Nomad bucks, and some luck in the draw will give them a hunting fix. When I was young hunting anything was fun for me. I put in the draw hoping to draw. That was fun for me. Dad and son/daughter can devise a plan to apply in other states and do lots of hunting together.

I have an opinion on this, but I am not fighting like I did the quality thing. I drew out so I think those with points can sort this out to best protect their points investment. The point system finally benefited me like it was supposed to.

I heard 8 months ago things were about to happen with points. I did not hear what, but I had a feeling this was coming or something else. I felt I HAD to draw before I was back at ground zero with everyone else. If I were you I would concentrate on protecting your points and status and get through this system.

You have your paws full on this one!
 
I have been planning to use the points averaging loophole myself. My wife has 8 deer points, I have 1 deer point. I also have 6 elk points, so I've been trying to burn them and then share her points to get a deer tag real quick. She really doesn't care if whe hunts or not, so I might as well use her points too.

BUT, after the Ebay thing, I realized that not only were other people going to get burned, but I will too. It's a loophole that would really benefit those who have been applying many people.

Also, if the averaging system continues, there will be even more people auctioning the right to apply with them on ebay. Heck, I'd sell the right for someone to apply with my wife for a grand.

Right now, there are 213,558 people who have points in Utah (1-13 points). Many of the them don't even apply every year. As people begin to learn about the money they might could make by throwing their $5.00 is for a few years, EVEN MORE non-hunters will be in the draw.
The ebay thing let the cat out of the bag and I see it only becoming an increasing problem.

Do you really want people getting into our draw system for $5.00 a year who might only be working the system to cash in 10 years down the road?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Founder,

Is this post not over with yet?

Why not just concentrate on how to get more hunting opportunity with out dmaging what we have built up so far.

Heck, Utah will double its population in what...another 10 years? Better double the tags somehow!

Take the tags away from the conservations groups and give them back to the average joe public for $5. It should not be about who can afford to put in. It should not be about point averaging. You are wasting allot of time on an item that is not going to make much difference in the future as to how many hunters are in the field.

I agree with the others, go to a NM draw system with "no points" and forget about what you are wasting your time on now!

GO GET MORE TAGS and still try to have the quality ( Look at ARIZONA....they kick UTAHS ass! ) Arizona has fewer elk, more hunters in the field and produces some of the best elk hunting in North America. I do not like Arizona's draw system with having to buy a license and the bonus points thing now in affect. Maybe they will change to a NM draw sometime?

In the end it is as Tom Cruise says' "SHOW ME THE MONEY"!!!!!!

By the way...I do not like Tom Cruise.

Later,

Alan
 
Alan, Alan, Alan.

bess is going to eat my ass when he gets back to his computer and maybe you will too, but what am I hearing from you?

I do not like the high conservation tags much, I hate the dedicated hunter draw, and the stiff hill to get a tags sucks, but what do we do? The convention tags still sit in my gut in a bad way. Will things get better from the money? Who knows?

No points?!?!? Do you think that is fair after you and I draw? To be fair those who are getting up there in points do not need that. If I had 10 points that would piss me off buddy. I just could never bring myself to draw then say "points suck."

Arizona? Alan, I cannot disagree more with you there. They do not have more hunters in the field. Utah has some 30,000 plus people hunting elk every year. Utah could divy out less tags overall and have a higher quality hunt to be more like Arizona, but that would require less tags than now.

I have to ask, are you building points for someone else to use later? Are you still going to pack my elk out?;-)
 
Founder- You just don't get it. Plain and simple.

You advise to use the loop hole on Conservation Tags and Landowner tags. Brilliant. Can I borrow $15,000?? Nice.

So the guy who has 10 points and wants to hunt with his brother who has 2 points and they are 50 years old can't apply and hunt together. Obviously they are removing a guy with many points who would be in line for a bonus tag and drawing on a lesser tag or by the luck of the draw. If both guys apply seperate they still have 12 chances in the draw. If they apply as a group GUESS WHAT?? They still have 12 chances in the draw.

One more time, the problem lies in the fact that the ABUSERS are turning their tags back in and having ALL thier points + 1 reinstated. That is the PROBLEM. Not the 2 hunters who want to hunt together. Charge more up front will eliminate many of the abusers. Not reinstating points will take care of the rest.

12 chances is 12 chances; no matter if you make them apply seperate or as a group.

I guess this is just another reason to be frustrated about a group I have been a member of for many years. Speak your mind and the higher-ups still don't listen.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-19-06 AT 02:52PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-19-06 AT 02:28?PM (MST)

KTC, KTC, KTC,

No, I do not think it is fair to do away with points, "especially" after I drew that coveted ( not ) tag last year. Just geting tired of Founder thinking that point averaging is a bid deal! Wake up.

Am I saving points on someone else to average and hunt with in the future?...well heck yes. Will I pay for their tag?..heck yes. Will they hunt....maybe not at that time? Should they be able to turn their tag in?....no! It is they system and if you change it to much, then it will penalize those with 2 and 10 points that will hunt together. At least the hunter success odd's the next year will be a little lower and the SFW ( I mean DWR )should issue more next tags the following year. It is like the tax system, if it is legal...do it. Sorry!

Lawyers make our civil laws and the SFW makes our wildlife laws...could'nt resist.

In regards to Arizona, I am only comparing limited entry to limited entry ( all of Arizona is limited entry for elk )....BOW tags.....HERE ME.....BOW TAGS......HERE ME....LOOK AT THE NUMBERS.....HERE ME?

I am also a rifle hunter....so don't flame me!

For the future hunters not already in the system the only options that will work are as follows:

1. Get ride of the point system for everyone

2. Set a side 25% of all the limited entry tags for those with bonus points ( But 50% of those tags do not go to the highest point holders...you are in the draw with just your points ) and the other 75% go to those who choose to go into the draw with no credit for bonus points.

How ya like me now!

PS....call me a week before your hunt and I will try to be there on the opener of your hunt for that 400" bull that is bugling and standing right in front of your 300 WM.

Alan
 
OK>....I am bored, so here goes another one!

Challenge to all conservation groups who receive tags:

1. Turn your tags back into the general limited entry draw.

2. Get ride off all bonus points

3. Raise internet applications to $20

4. DWR to take all additional money and give back to the conservations groups to fund conservation programs and not in taking care of funding tags for the wealthy or running the DWR.

Sounds like a good old LOTTO! Equal odds!
 
I think I am in agreement with the Founder here. It is not fair to allow any sort of Point Averaging, because it could be abused and most likely will. The Founder stated that he would sell his wife's points for $1000, there must be quite a few others around that would do the same. If you made it illegal to return your tags, people would still be able to sell their points to the highest bidder or those that were abusing the system by putting family members in could still abuse it. All it stops is from you doing it every year.

The only argument that holds any water is the youth argument and hunting with your kids, but once again there is room for abuse and it surely wouldn't be fair to all the youth applying. Some would have a better chance of drawing because they know someone who will share their points with them. Because they know someone with points they should have better odds than a youth that does not? The scenario is also there for someone to buy points for their children, just like those that were offered on Ebay.

Packout,

Charging more up front would eliminate some of the abusers, but surely not the ones with a lot of points who could sell those to the highest bidder or even those who were putting in family members in hopes of sharing their points with themselves to increase their own odds. How would that eliminate those people?

I understand that it would be great to share points with your kids or go on a hunt with a good friend, but since there is room for abuse, it should be stopped.

I guess I could be wrong however.

Nino
6 Non-Resident Deer Points, I could use a few more!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-19-06 AT 04:25PM (MST)[p]Founder- I never said you weren't listening. I said you don't get it. I guess I'll take wrong rather than selfish. Too bad for all us SFW members who don't agree with you.

I am still perplexed that you are for bypassing the system with conservation/landowner tags, but can't see the value in allowing hunters to apply and hunt together. Wow.
 
The odds of drawing a tag if you are not in the max bonus point pool has got to be so close to ZERO that point averaging is a waste of time.

I do think that being able to turn you tag back in and get your points back is a joke and creates abuse.
 
Muley62.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you. The one that was mentioned in this thread was:

Book Cliffs Archery - 6 points

Others:
Book Cliffs Any Weapon - 7 points
Book CLiffs Muzzleloader - 7 points

The higher end units you need to be in with max points, but definitely not all of the limited entry units.

Nino
 
Travis,

That is a tall order to explain the system. I have read it a hundred times and still am not sure I can explain it right!

Essentially a persone gets assigned a draw number based upon his number of points. If a person with no points applies, He gets one number. If a person applies with 13 points, he is assigned 13 numbers and the Lowest number is the one used. Additionally, 50% of the tags are reserved for the top point holders. Whether that be 13 points, or 6 points. In the event that 50% of the permits equal more than the number of applicants in the highest point pool, those individuals all get tags, and the remaining tags of the 1st 50% are drawn from the next highest pool. Then, Everyone gets a shot at the remaining 50% of the total permits. It all comes down to either being in the max pool or hitting the Lotto by pulling a low number with your points. I believe the numbers you draw are random?!

How did I do? This was all off the top of my head but was a worthy effort!

Founder, It is very unfortunate that you would listen to our ideas and as a majority disagree with you and have you just dig in your heels and say "your wrong". Why ask us if you are not open to other ideas?

Chad
 
My next question would be, if this is how the system works and after you figure in all the variables. How much of an advantage would point averaging actually give someone? for example let's use 1 person with maximum points and the other with no points which I beleive would give both six. Let use just an average LE hunt say the Wasatch for draw odds. What percentage does this actually equate to as far as drawing chance?
 
Mule Packer.

Here are a couple of examples from some of the Premium Limited Entry Units:

Henry Mountains, Any Weapon:

0 points: Odds are 1 in 1376.7
6 points: Odds are 1 in 196.7


Paunsaugunt, Any Weapon:

0 points: Odds are 1 in 240.3
6 points: Odds are 1 in 34.4

Book Cliffs, Any Weapon
0 Points: Odds are 1 in 111
6 points: Odds are 1 in 2.12 (for the 50% to max points) and 1 in 15.9 for the randomn draw.

This is where there is a bigger problem. Someone could draw the Book Cliffs every other year if they went in with someone with max points and that person turned their tag back in. What if someone put two family members in with them and they both have max points? Then they could draw every year!

I took these odds from the following link:
http://www.utahhuntinfo.com/
Great Web Page!

Nino
 
"How much of an advantage would point averaging actually give someone?"

In most case, the advantage is absolutley nothing. Mathamatically speaking it would say that your odds are improved, but anyone that has studied the odds knows that this usually is not the case. The way it does help is if someone has max points and puts in with someone on a lesser unit or archery hunt (better odds)where the points will still average out high enough to be in the top points group. Who is going to put in for 14 years to have their points cut in half? I can't think of anyone unless its the people that don't have any intention of hunting or could care less, but thats what brought this issue up in the first place.

I think there has been some good ideas that might slow down the abuse, but I am not sure that "point averaging" needs to be taken completely out of the equation.
 
That is exactly right if my calculations prove correct in all instances but one your chances are improved less than 3 percent by point averaging. The exception being a hunt which takes less than half of the total maximum points available. In 2007 I believe that will be 8 points so a LE hunt which maximum point holders are 8 or less and equal or less to the 50 percent of tags alloted to the maximum point pools it can become an issue.

A fix for the problem, continue to allow dual applicants and point averaging, however require all dual applicants to be placed in the general draw and not be allowed in the maximum point pool. This then puts point averaging back to the 3 percent increase for drawing. I also believe once a tag is drawn there should be a point penalty for returning the tag. Those individuals who return tags each year because they can't find a trophy are the ones truly taking adavantage of the
system, once you draw take your chance like everyone else. Afterall I believe we still call it hunting.
 
Your odds may increase only 3%, but that is significant when your odds are less than 1% to begin with. A better way to look at it is that you are roughly 7 times as likely to draw if you averaged points and had 6 points then if you had zero points.

Basically you gain 6 chances in the drawing by averaging points with someone who has no intention of hunting.
 
You do not get 6 chances of drawing a permit you get 6 chances of drawing a low number. Then if that low number is lower than those who put in with you for a specific LE hunt. Therefore the more popular the hunt the lower number you need. To make this clear a guy whose number is 150 may not draw the Pahvant where a guy with the number 1500 may draw a Wasatch permnit. Because of the compounding factors involved in the Utah draw scenario your stars better line up in order to draw. Ideally the guy with 150 points would get a tag because they drew a low number maybe it would be second or third choice. However, I am sure there are some that would complain because they did not get a first choice turn there tag in and get their points back.
 
6 chances of drawing a low number is roughly the same thing as 6 chances of drawing a permit. The only difference being that you cannot draw more than one permit, so if you have 2 low numbers you only get 1 permit.

For example. Let's say you have to have 1 of the lowest 20 numbers in order to get the tag. If you have 6 points, you get 7 chances (numbers) to be in the lowest 20 numbers, if you have 0 points you get only 1 chance. That's a pretty big difference.

Would you rather have 1 chance in the Lottery or 7 chances?

Perhaps I am wrong here, but it doesn't seem to be much of a difference.
 
nri- what you say would make sense if there were a limited number of people applying for tags. But when you have 100 guys applying for 10 tags and their points give them a total of 700 chances, then those 7 chances become less important or less of a factor. Points only help if you are qualifying for the Bonus Tags.

And if the guy with 10 points and the guy with 2 points apply together then they have 12 point chances in the draw. If they apply seperate one would have 2 point chances while the other would have 10 point chances for a total of 12 point chances. So you still end up with the same point chances in the draw. The problem would occur if the guy with 10 helped the guy with 2 to draw a tag then turn his tag back in and get all 10 + 1 points back.

One other point, there are very few applicants with high points, thus the averaging would only benefit a small portion of the applicants. Most all Elk applicants with 10 or more points apply solo, just trying to draw a tag. And there are no max point holders for deer or antelope.
 
Your argument would be correct if they drew per specific LE hunt. However, they draw numbers by total applicants. So if the 144,000 applicant number is correct and assume the average is 5 points the total numbers will be 720,000 of which you will have 6 chances or a .000008 percent chance of drawing the lowest number. The minimum number an applicant has is 1 so this person would have a .000001 chance of drawing the lowest number as you can see the differnce of .000007 is negligble.

After you have been assigned a number than you are placed in your first choice only LE hunt. If your number is low enough you get a permit. If all first choice permits are not given away then they would go to second choice and the next lowest number in that scenario would get the permit. Go to the division website look up the hunt you applied for and in the left hand column you will see the numbers each applicant was assigned/drew look at the range of numbers for those that drew, this will help you understand the magnitude of the number drawing and why you have such a small chance of drawing a low number.

All factors included the problem is not in averaging, it is the abuse of turning tags back and getting all your points reinstated. This is where we need to make a change. Second would be to not allow dual applicants in the maximum point pool. All other instances it pretty much is the luck of the draw of whether you get a permit, that is why every year first time applicants draw as many permits as any point classes with the exception of the maximum point holders.
 
Packout.

I respectfully disagree when you say that points only help in qualifying for the Bonus Tags.

As was shown before they can help your odds for a limited entry tag where your only chance was in the randomn draw where chances are based on bonus points.

Henry Mountains, Any Weapon:

0 points: Odds are 1 in 1376.7
6 points: Odds are 1 in 196.7

That looks like a big difference to me.

I agree when you say the overall odds don't really change much for 2 friends applying together, one with 2 points and another with 10 versus them applying seperately. However for those that put their grandmother or grandfather or spouse in just to acrue points (these people don't even hunt and won't use the tag) that they could use later for themselves get an unfair advantage over others that did not do this. Even if they cannot return their tags in the future, it still gives them an unfair advantage in drawing a limited tag.

I guess the question is how many people have done this? Founder admitted that he did, are there others and how many? Have some persons repeatedly drawn tags and the person they applied with returned their tag?

This has to be stopped somehow and the only way I see that you could totally stop it is to not allow Point Averaging.

My 2 cents.

Good luck to all this fall.

Nino
 
Mule Packer.

I don't think that 7 times as good a chance is negligible. That is all I am saying and by looking at the drawing odds, it seems to back that up.

Paunsaugunt, Any Weapon Randomn Draw based on Points:

0 points: Odds are 1 in 240.3
6 points: Odds are 1 in 34.4

Nino
 
>Paunsaugunt, Any Weapon Randomn Draw based
>on Points:
>
>0 points: Odds are 1 in
>240.3
>6 points: Odds are 1 in
>34.4
>
>Nino


I would like to see the math people are using to calculate these "odds".

Lets make an example of 100 theoretical tags for a hunt with 1000 people putting in for them. Lets say there are 150 people with max points.

One might think 100 / 1000 = 1 in 10 chance to draw as per the F&G odds sheet, but that isnt the case. Half of the tags goto the top tier of people putting in so in reality the true odds are:

(100/2 ) / 950 = 1 in 19 chance to draw.
 
Nino,

AS with all statisitics you are loooking at a snapshot of what the statitician wants you to see.

I can't find where you got your data give me the year and hunt number and I will try and explain how they come up with such favorable odds.
 
Nino,

After looking at the 2005 draw oddds by bonus point it is apparent that the DWR info is only reporting a specific hunt per bonus point and permits drawn. This in no way gives an accurate picture of the odds.

for example the Paunsagaunt Premium Limited Entry Deer Hunt reports 27 permits total.

13 go to maximum pool which included 3 point categories representing 16 people the first two categories odds were 1 in 1, the third category reports 1 in 1.5 an accurate reflection numbers of permits divided by number of applicants. However, a flaw shows when a person with 5 points drew a bonus permit before one of the four remaining applicants in the 6 point pool. Therefore it leaves validity up for debate.
In the general pool they report 1 in 3.8 odds for the 5 point people which again is a reflection of number of applicants divided by number of permits drawn by 5 point people. However, 5 point people should have been included in the general pool which included all applicants with 5 points or less 294 total. therefore if your theory is true there odds should be 5 in 294.

The points they have divided into the number of permits available, more like a 1 in 58.8 chance of drawing. The DWR does not report this however.
These people were not entered in the Paunsagaunt pool and then drawn. They were entered in the number pool, secured a number then were placed in the paunsagaunt pool and a permit was awarded to the lowest number holder. In this case the lowest number holders happened to have 2 with 1 point, 4 with 2 points, 1 with 3 points, 3 with 4 points and 4 with 5 points equaling the remaining 14 permits.

Again your odds are the number of points you have divided by all the applicants times the number of points they have. At any rate the odds are against you unless you are a maximum point holder. Then you are only benfited because 1/2 of the permits go to a small percentage in the maximum point pool per LE hunt of applicants. Not because you have a better chance of drawing a low number as even someone with max points has 1 in 55384 chances of drawing a low number or percentage of .00001.
 
I think you should have a minimum of four points before you can enter the draw. Do your time like everyone else. Right now I'm open to anything that will give me a better chance of pulling my elk tag.

Mike
 
Mule Packer.

Have you looked at the following weblink that I stated twice:
http://www.utahhuntinfo.com/myodds.aspx

This is not published by the DWR, it is a private link that I believe has done what you have mentioned. Their odds for the Paunsagaunt - Resident - Any Weapon hunt for each point total in the randomn draw (the side with 14 permits).

0 points - 1 in 240.5
1 point - 1 in 120.2
2 points - 1 in 80.2
3 points - 1 in 60.1
4 points - 1 in 48.1
5 points - 1 in 40.1
6 points - 1 in 34.4
7 points - 1 in 30.1
8 points - 1 in 26.7
9 points - 1 in 24.0
10-12 points - 100% draw in the first half of permits to max points.


My biggest point is that it is not fair for a person with 0 points (let's say they drew the Pauns tag last year) to be able to put in with one of their parents or spouse (who has no intention of hunting and probably doesn't even know they have been getting points for 12 years) to increase their odds from:

1 in 240.5 to 1 in 34.4.

That is a pretty big jump, their odds are 7 times better.

Now if this link does something fundamentally wrong, then I could be wrong, but if the odds are correct, it is not fair.

Nino
 
I have looked at the website, I can not determine there odds equation. However, I have e-mailed them asking some questions we will see if we can get a response. In order to have accurate odds they would have to take in to account the hunt applied for, each bonus point category, the number of permits, etc.

However, there is one thing fundamentally wrong with the different odds. That is the fact you go into the permit drawing with only one number. If you are below the maximum point pool this means you have one chance for a permit as does every other applicant. Therefore 300 applicants equals 1 in 300 odds, because permits are not allotted by bonus points with the exception of maximum points.


I do agree that allowing point prostitutes needs to stop. I believe there are a number of ways to do this without stopping averaging and hurting the majority of folks. I believe there are not that many people participating, in fact this had not crossed my mind until it was berought to light on MM. I consider myself fairly intelligent, maybe I am not. However, I usually do not look for ways to beat the system and that is why my grandma six times removed has never been included on my debit card when I have applied for me, my wife and children.

Travis
 
Travis.

When you say:
"If you are below the maximum point pool this means you have one chance for a permit as does every other applicant. Therefore 300 applicants equals 1 in 300 odds, because permits are not allotted by bonus points with the exception of maximum points."

I think this is incorrect.

From the DWR website:
How your bonus points work in the draw:
Fifty percent (odd numbers are rounded down) of the permits for each hunt unit number are reserved for applicants with the most bonus points. You receive one random drawing number for each species you apply for and one for every bonus point you have for that species. Your lowest random number is used in the drawing. Bonus points are averaged and rounded down when two or more applicants apply as a group. For example, if hunter A with seven bonus points and hunter B with zero bonus points apply as a group, the bonus points are averaged (3.5) and rounded down to three. The group receives three random draw numbers for the bonus points, plus one random draw number for the group application, for a total of four draw numbers. The lowest random number is used in the drawing. In the draw for limited entry buck deer, the applications are sorted into groups by
the number of bonus points, from highest to lowest?a 10 Bonus Point Group, a 9 Bonus Point Group, etc. Hunters applying alone will be treated as a group of one. Within each group of bonus points for limited entry buck deer, the applications are sorted from lowest to highest draw number. Permits are awarded in order, based on the hunt choice selected. Any person may surrender their premium limited entry, limited entry or once-in-alifetime permit prior to the season opening date, for the purpose of waiving the waiting period normally assessed and reinstating the number of bonus points, including a bonus point for the current year (just as if a permit had not been drawn)."

I think that it is pretty clearly that you get the number of bonus points + 1 randomn numbers and from that you take your lowest number.

Take care.

Nino
 
Nino,

Read your post carefully,"For example, if hunter A with seven bonus points and hunter B with zero bonus points apply as a group, the bonus points are averaged (3.5) and rounded down to three. The group receives three random draw numbers for the bonus points, plus one random draw number for the group application, for a total of four draw numbers. The lowest random number is used in the drawing." you only take your lowest number to the permit allocation and then permits are given. "Permits are awarded in order, based on the hunt choice selected." not by bonus point category This means the person with the lowest number receives the first permit and then in ascending order until all permits are awarded regardless of pbonus points. Exception maximum point pool.
When numbers are drawn all applicants are entered in the number drawing at bonus points plus 1 for application and numbers are drawn randomly per specie. So yes you do have multiple chances at drawing a low number. In order to figure exact odds you would need to know applicant per species and total bonus points and number of applicants. It may not be as bad as I first posted because I lumped all applications together for the point drawing. Even at that point averaging will be mathematically insignificant per specie as far as improving your odds.
 
"Even at that point averaging will be mathematically insignificant per specie as far as improving your odds."

Sorry, but I totally disagree. Since you stated that, you obviously disagree with the stats shown before because they are not insignificant.

Your chances of getting a low number increase with each bonus point you have, correct? There is really no difference at all between doing the draw with the lowest randomn number and putting everyone's name in a big hat for the number of bonus points +1 that they have and pulling the names out of the hat. I don't see a difference at all.

All you need to know is the number of 1st choice applicants for each hunt code and how many bonus points they have to figure out the odds.

Nino
 
The key is not per hunt code but per specie.
Meaning a guy is not just competing for a low number with other pauns applicants for any weapon, but is competing with everyone who put in for a LE deer permit for a low number. When you start doing the math point averaging is insignificant. The problem is not in averaging. It is with surrogate partners.

enough said

Travis
 
I don't think it is enough said.

You are not competing with everyone who put in, you are just competing against those that put in the same as your first choice (Pauns Any Weapon for example). The competition is among those that put in for the same hunt code, whomever has the lowest 14 numbers in the Pauns Any Weapon Group, whether that number be 1 or 1000 or 10,000 will get the tag.

Unless Utah does their draw similar to New Mexico where your 2nd and 3rd choices matter, I believe this to be correct.

On the proclamation, it states: "all choices have been evaluated separately". I take this to mean that your 2nd choice will only be evaluated if not enough people applied for that unit as their first choice. Obviously that does not happen for any of the LE tags we are discussing.

I agree that the problem is not with averaging, but with surrogate partners. But how can this be eliminated is the question? The only way I see that that is possible is to eliminate points averaging.

Sorry to all for this long winded discussion and Travis I don't mean to be coming across hostile towards you, I just feel strongly about this.

Thanks.

Nino
 
Nino,

From the discussion above and from what I read into this you are indeed competeing with everyone. Your Special number is given to you BEFORE you are placed in your hunt draw. Therefore you are getting your number with ALL mule deer applicants as Travis stated. 6 bonus points does not gaurantee you will recieve a lower number than a person with no bonus points. Obviously it might seem to increase your chances of getting a low number but from cruising the draw tables people of all points groups seem to be hitting the low numbers equally. With the exception of the max group. I really don't see the point of trying to stop point averaging when it really amounts to nothing. What really needs to stop is allowing people to "help" others draw out and then turn their permit in and get their max points reinstated. Obviously that is just my oppinion however! Have a great day!

Chad
 
I don't live in Utah and don't hunt there, so I consider myself pretty impartial to this thing. Here's my opinion. Odds have nothing to do with points averaging. The system is broken because people are or can turn in their tags for a refund and re-instated bonus points. Make them both non-returnable if successful in the draw and the issue goes away. If people want to donate the tag to a minor or Hunt of a Lifetime or something that's fine and dandy, but they shouldn't be able to return it just because. There should be allowances for military/emergency service work, but in general there should be no refunds after you apply. Just my $.02.

Nick
 
Chad.

You are correct when you say you are getting your number with all other mule deer applicants, but you are not competing with them for a tag. You are competing with those that put in for the same hunt code that you did.

I agree that you should not be able to get your points reinstated, that would stop people from repeatedly doing this. It however would not stop those who are abusing the system from doing it one more time.

I guess the big question is, how many people are abusing the system? If it is minimal, should we still allow them to abuse the system? It seems like everyone here thinks we should allow that to continue. Perhaps one day, I'll be able to sell my points on Ebay then or my wife's points.

Nino
 
I agree with Nick's post, that definitely should be done and it will solve the majority of the cases. However, it will not solve all of the abuse of the system.

For e.g., the Founder could continue to put in for points for his wife and then after he draws his elk tag, he could use the points averaging to his advantage to draw a Mule Deer tag. Should he be allowed to do this?
 
With Nick on this as well.

Although when people ABUSE the system regarding someone giving a tag back just to get someone else more points, it does effect the odds. Yes, very slightly, but that's more numbers in the hat for someone else, thus lowering the odds.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 

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