Utah Once in a lifetime points change

elkantlers · Nov 26, 2012

I have been thinking about going to the RACS to try and see if I could get the resident OIL points changed from species specific to a general OIL Point that you could switch around to different animals from year to year. I started putting in for Desert sheep 17 years ago but now I have changed my mind and would like to change to something different but I am pretty much point bound to stay with the Desert sheep. Since the DWR only allows residents to apply for one species of big game, once you start a person is pretty much stuck if he ever wants a legitimate chance of drawing a tag.

What do you think about changing to a general OIL point?

T_Ball · Nov 26, 2012

I like that idea a lot and have been talking about it with my friends for the last few years. I do agree after awhile maybe I don't want to draw a certain OIL tag.

lundellhunting7 · Nov 26, 2012

No way in H3LL would i support something like that! Keep it the same!

broadfork · Nov 26, 2012

I picked my poison. I wish I had put in for sheep, but decided to put in for mountain goat instead. Now that I am getting close to draw, I would hate it if a bunch of guys got sick of waiting for moose,or bison and switched to goat. I would not support that at all.

2_Point · Nov 26, 2012

Sounds like a great idea. I won't ever feel bad for the guy with 18 points when his own kids will probably never draw. OIL point not species specific, I like it.

PleaseDear · Nov 26, 2012

I wouldn't favor it at all.

We already have applicants with 5-6 points on many species as they do not know what they want to draw and just keep switching around each year.

Your idea has merit but I think it has to big of a down side.

Robb

30Hart · Nov 27, 2012

I wouldn't support it...we all picked our poison...I would assume some of the moose point holders would support it as the number of tags is down and they'd like to switch over, but I agree w/ a previous poster...I wouldn't like it one bit if I got jumped over by a higher point holder from another species...we all took our gamble. Might not be perfect, but it's one of the only systems that at least somewhat guarantees you'll get an OIL tag before you die!

Zeke · Nov 27, 2012

It's a good thought but the folks with fewer points will never be the ones who could draw. Whereas, under the current system some areas/species require fewer points and are easier to draw.

Unless and until the F&G allows us to apply for all OIL tags we should "dance with the one who brung us" (stay with the same critter).

I would not support a system which is not sepcies specific.

Zeke

treedagain · Nov 27, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-12 AT 10:15AM (MST)[p]no bueno....think of all those moose and buff guys jumping ship to greener pastures.

we all picked our poison and should live with that choice. IMHO

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Foxskinner · Nov 27, 2012

I can see how this would appeal to the guys with 17-19 points especially the ones going after sheep and such where only a few tags are given each year. I however, am in the 6 point pool and if this were to be changed, there would be no way in heck that I would ever get to draw any tag (Not that I am planning on drawing anyway). Good thought but I think the overall outcome would be negative.

www.biggamedrawodds.com

Packout · Nov 27, 2012

Just thinking outloud---

If a unit/species/permit takes more than 100 years to draw (1 in 100 odds) should we give half the tags for that unit/hunt to those in the top point pools? Those sitting in the top point pools only are there because they were eligible to apply at the start of the point game. The start was just an arbitrary time.

For example-- the Rattlesnake Unit Bighorn tag odds are 1 in 330 for a non-Bonus Permit. It will take 10 years to go through the highest 3 levels of point holders. Is it a good system that makes it so a guy who was able to apply at the start will be assured a permit, while a hunter just 10 years younger is never afforded the same opportunity?

It takes all of us to put our situation aside to really understand the system and the effect it has on us and those coming after. I'd guess the hunter with 12+ points would be against any change, while the hunter with 3 would be for a change-- both probably based on self-serving basis. Part of the point system sounds a little like Social Security and the phrase "unsustainable".

Sure glad I already drew my one OIL permit as a high point holder.....

pookiebar · Nov 27, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-12 AT 02:52PM (MST)[p]I like this idea with a little bit of a twist. The twist is that you get charged $100 per point you want to transfer to a different species. You have to transfer all points to that species when you make the switch. You can switch every year if you want to, but the $100 per point fee applies every time you switch species.

Also when you transfer points you do not gain another point the first year you are unsuccessful. So if you transfer 17 points to moose for example, you do not go up to 18 points that first year if you don't draw.

That way there is some kind of consequence to you making a change mid stream. Kindah like when peeing, if you cut the stream off early it stings.

Deerlove · Nov 27, 2012

stupid idea you made the decision now live with it.

blazingsaddle · Nov 27, 2012

That way there is some kind of consequence to you making a change mid stream. Kindah like when peeing, if you cut the stream off early it stings.

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goofyelk · Nov 27, 2012

This idea of 'pooling' OIAL points was presented to the RAC & board 6 years ago, Was unanimously rejected at every level.

arrowone4me · Nov 27, 2012

Seems that nonres can put in for all......fair?

elkantlers · Nov 27, 2012

What I don't like is starting out on one species that is doing pretty good and then through the mis-management of our DWR all of a sudden a person may never draw a tag. As long as the DWR makes us pick one OIL species to apply for, I think the OIL points ought to be allowed to be moved to a different species that there actually some chance of drawing.

ibow4it2 · Nov 27, 2012

I do not like the idea and would vote against it... I would actually like to see the state of Utah make all applicants front the TOTAL TAG FEE when applying for limited entry permits. It would increase your odds significantly and the State could collect interest on the money as does Wyoming with all non-resident application fees. Wyoming is one of the first states to take your money and one of the last ones to give it back to you....collecting interest on it for about 5 months....I know some will not like the idea of fronting the money as there are several people in the household who may hunt, meaning there may be a couple thousand dollars needed to apply.. I am not rich and would have to sacrifice alot to do so, but it would be worth it to me......plus I always get my money back anyway

elkantlers · Nov 27, 2012

Wyoming does not take 5 months to get your money back. I send in my money for elk in January and when it comes back in March I apply for deer and antelope.

If you really want to get good odds you could do what Idaho does. There you either apply for OIL or limited entry, but not both.

30Hart · Nov 28, 2012

+1 I'd accept the Idaho option.

ibow4it2 · Nov 28, 2012

Elkantlers, the five month wait I'm talking about is for the Deer and Antelope refunds... I do not hunt Idaho but I like the idea of being able to apply for either the OIL or Limited Entry and not both....sure would increase the odds

fatherofthree · Nov 28, 2012

I don't have a strong opinion on this as there would be winners and losers. I like the penalty concept though, maybe a $500 fee and lose 25% of the points or something. I feel for a guy with 14 moose points that may be too old have a legit chance at hunting one by the time he draws. It would be cool if that guy could cash out and hunt a goat before he cashes in...

What I don't understand is why in Utah you cannot put in as a group for OIL, bear, lion. etc. Asinine. Almost as asinine as having muzzleloader hunts where you can't use a bow. Utah=illogical.

Zeke · Nov 29, 2012

> I feel for
>a guy with 14 moose
>points that may be too
>old have a legit chance
>at hunting one by the
>time he draws. It would
>be cool if that guy
>could cash out and hunt
>a goat before he cashes
>in...
>

The guy who has been religiously applying for Mtn Goats might not think it would be very "cool"!

Zeke

qvelvet · Dec 3, 2012

I can relate to changing the OIL tag. I have been putting in for the Cache moose permit for the last 12 years. When i first started putting in for the tag there were a couple dozen tags available and less than 1200 applicants. In 2012, there were 4 available and 2121 people applied for it. It seems that i will have to wait another 12 years, possibly more, to even have a chance at drawing this tag. However, I agree with not being able to transfer the points. The 2117 hunters that were unsuccessful in 2012 would flood the market of premium areas. Not only many of those hunters but numerous people in the state from many different regions. Areas that offer awesome animals would become overwhelmed and the people that have been applying for more than ten years would have to wait...who knows how long. For specific units, it may turn into a system of never in a lifetime.

rutnbuck · Dec 4, 2012

I was lucky I drew moose with 1 point. But back when you could draw for all species but only draw 1. I managed to accumulate points in all. Managed to draw my Bison. Should draw RMB in the next year or 2. Have a couple DB and a 1 or 2 RMG. So will I ever have a chance for DB or RMG. I doubt it. Wish you could still put in for All Species. No complaints other then kids now days don't stand a chance for more then one species! Which is ok or there wouldn't be any animals. It is now 1 OIL in a life.
Leave it alone.
Rutnbuck

tstewy · Dec 5, 2012

Oh where to start on this one? I think the utah draw system needs to be overhauled. There are more guys appling for tags and less tags to get. Imo you should be able to transfer your pts i have 16 moose pts and will not draw for who in the hell knows how long. I started puting in when i was 14 and now am almost thirty imo you get to draw one tag and that is it Moose Mt goat etc that way everyone has a chance. Otherwise a young kid will never get a permit.

Zeke · Dec 20, 2012

With 100,000 hunters in Utah, what makes you think everyone is entitled to a OIL tag? There are not enough tags to go around and yet there are those who Biotch about not getting one. No matter how hard you stomp your feet it will not change the fact that the demand will always out-strip the supply regardless of the drawing system.

The current draw system was set up to reward those who started and stayed with the system! The youth can and will get tags IF they start and stay in the game. Most people just dabble with their applications and are hit and miss from year to year.

In the mean while take them hunting. There are opportunities everywhere for the kids. They don't have to get a desert bighorn sheep tag to have a great hunt.

Zeke

JDElec · Dec 20, 2012

I'm honestly not sure if my kids will ever get tags the way the system is set up and we apply for everything we can. I don't know what the solution is but I do know the system is broken. That being said I would support something with moving points or only having OIL points that are good for any species but could only draw each species once.

Also I think the "LE deer" "GEN deer" double deer draw system is stupid as well I think that there should be LE deer only every unit is now LE anyway.