Utah Youth Any Bull Elk Hunt Fail

[maximusbs]

Let me start by saying my son and I made some memories in the 7 days of scouting and 8 days of hunting through our shared hardships, grueling challenges, and unrewarded optimism.
I asked for some help here a few months ago, but basically got an offer from a professional guide. So it was just he and I and the ?Utah hunt planner? website. No private land or ranch access. We chose Kamas and South Slope (Yellowstone subunit) We had a little advice from a local resident, but it was a DIY PUBLIC land hunt.
As we began opening weekend, we started hearing stories from the Limited Entry unit just across the highway that guys had arrowed massive bulls and that they were out there screaming through the night. We heard nothing in our side.
My son will probably never elk hunt again unless he chooses a lucrative career, because he learned real fast that: ?You gotta pay to win, Dad.?
We pushed on, trying new locations, going places where nobody dared go- except cattle. That's the real problem. We learned that every time we thought we had a pristine, remote location with feed, timber, and water; the cattle had turned the water holes toxic with their waste and eaten all the good feed! Our public land! Then the ranchers have the nerve to refuse access on a forest service road because their ranch sits on 1 mile of it!
We hit all the locations given by DWR biologists and went even further. With every new ridge, drainage and elevation we expected to hear a bugle or a mew or get a response...nothing! Lots of old sign. Never any new sign. On day 5 we went to a place not just void of roads, nut no marked trails either. It was brutal. We got in two hours after first light, but managed to watch a small, lone raghorn go to bed in dark timber. No bugling was heard on the way in or anytime after. Surely, we missed the main herd just like the raghorn was probably a satellite bull and had to keep his distance? We stayed all day, in great wind position, and never saw or heard anything.
I'm sad that Utah has let these general units be overrun by the cattle cartel. The elk have no choice but to run to reservations and farms. I'm hearing that the cattle cartel is having more influence on the Limited Entry units as well.
I guess I believed that my son had won something really special. To hunt elk, during the rut, with a rifle, and can shoot any elk you want. It's disappointing when the elk are not there.
I'm curious if anyone was able to make this hunt work by pure DIY public hunting. Out of state. No friends or family with a ranch. No guides. No special access. There should only be 49 (450 residents, 50 nonresident tags) other kids out there with this tag, so we'll see if anyone knows any nonresidents who did this hunt the DIY public land way.

 

[Muley_73]

Yes. It's a not an easy hunt but yes there are bulls in huntable public land locations. Out scouting for deer last week I watched one 6 and two 5x5s for the entire week. They were running 10-12 cows. Always close to the road (under 100 yards). Only saw 2 youth hunters all week. One killed a 4x5 bull the other was chasing the 6 point last I saw. Tough hunt but there are some opportunities out there, and that's what everyone asks for these days.

 

[DBG3285]

I'll comment.

This is a tough hunt, especially being an out of state person. But it is a fillable tag.

I would hate to see you let your son be discouraged from hunting due to one not filled tag! That seems excessive, and it also seems excessive that you would, or that you would let your child believe you can only kill animals buy ?paying to win?.

There are successful hunters in those units every year, both resident and non resident, that paid nothing but their time and energy.

P.S.

You would get much more help with contributions and follow up. 1 post, and never following up, or engaging is not a way to get help.

 

[elkassassin]

It's Called 'Huntin'!

Sometimes no matter How hard We Try!

We Might Feel as We Have Failed!

Taking an animal is never a Guarantee!

But Keep after it!

Sometimes the Wounds take about 11 Months to Heal!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[lundellhunting7]

There are a lot of people out there that throw in for these youth Any bull tags thinking it like hunting a LE unit.... Turns out its not..... Its still an any bull unit with low success. I don't understand why people thing just because its suppose to be going during the rut it makes it a slam dunk to kill a bull on an any bull unit.....

Anyone that puts a bull down on an any bull unit has accomplished something most people don't.

 

[BIGJOHNT]

I have put everyone of my kids in for this youth hunt . My son now 31 drew one of these tags on the first youth hunt. Most people haven't even heard of them yet. We chose to hunt a limited entry unit that just changed to a open unit. We started scouting the unit in the heat of the summer learning the area and roads. He got lucky and shot a great bull. This picture is a copy off a 35 mm camera.

We where lucky to be the first in with a rifle. The general archery guys were chasing these bulls before us. So the advantage of the youth hunt was we were first in the area with a gun and not many other hunters. My nephew drew the tag a few years ago. He hunted up north in the Uintah,s. He only hunted the weekends and got lucky the last weekend. The caught a rag horn bull chasing some cows off some private property on to public. He shot this bull.

None of my other kids where able to draw a youth tag until Hannah my 17 year old did this year. No limited entry unit switched over to general units. We had no access to private property. We picked a unit somewhat close to us and started scouting. We do live in Utah and are experienced elk hunters. My daughter and her husband live on the edge of the unit. My son went to high school with a buddy Tony at dominate hunting boys. How also knew the unit. Those where our advantages hunting this unit. At first only find cows and spikes on the unit. Then rag horn bulls. We decided this was a rag horn hunt and she would shoot the first rag horn we could get close to her. Well we watched these bull during the Archery hunt and they did pretty much the same thing every day. So Todd and Tony took Hannah in to the cedar trees these elk where heading to. Luckily for her they did the same thing opening morning. But they got there about a hour faster being pushed by five riders on horseback. But we expected them to be pushed by the other hunters. Well the came within 50 yards and with the biggest bull having a bull tarp in his horns. It made it easy to spot him in the cedar trees. So we got lucky and had another good youth hunt. Here is Hannah and her bull.

This year was hot and the bulls where not really rutting like in years past. But this kids can still have a good time on these youth hunts. No they aren't limited entry unit. But it gives the kids a good place to start. With family and friends helping them. Hopefully they all can have a good time enjoying the outdoors.

 

[BradN]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-23-19 AT 12:29PM (MST)[p]There's always someone that's got more money and opportunity than the rest of us. That's life. But, there's plenty of opportunity in Utah for hunters who work hard and have some savvy and maybe a little luck. Every year there are hunters (archery, rifle and ML) who take nice bulls off the any bull units.

I hunt the any bull units every year. Some years I connect; others I don't. But, I love getting out in the mountains. I hope you'll convey that same love of the mountains and nature to your son. In my book, success is more aligned with the experience of hunting than the experience of killing/harvesting.

 

[deerkiller]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-23-19 AT 12:53PM (MST)[p]its sad and somewhat comical to see how many people fall for the youth any bull trap, year after year after year.... its not a LE tag, quit treating it as such. its simply a way to give youth more "opportunity" to go hunting, nothing more.

im sorry to hear your son is falling victim to the snowflake mentality that is becoming a plague in todays youth. these kids feel entitled to everything, apparently even when it comes to killing an elk. there are guys who have been hunting elk for 50 years that cant fill an any bull tag but every few years, at best! and your kid feels like he deserves one after 8 days of hunting? thats unfortunate. if you doubt he will hunt elk again unless he can afford a high dollar tag, then maybe you need to take a step back and look at it as maybe you failed the hunt for him, not the unnotched tag. i didnt kill an elk my first year. or second. or third. finally on my 4th year of hunting i finally killed a cow in january with a rifle after who knows how many days i spent hunting them. success became more frequent after that. why did i keep hunting them if i wasnt successful? my dad made those hunts about the experience, not the harvest. we had alot of great hunts together when we never even saw an elk! but i still had fun trying and wanted to have more experiences. never once did i feel entitled to kill an elk. many of the elk i have killed since, i dont feel like i earned or was entitled to them. to me, i see the failed elk hunt on your part, not the elk, or lack of elk. if your kid quits hunting elk after his first and only experience, i doubt killing one would have made much more of a difference.

these youth hunts are low success, always have been, always will be. but a few kids fill tags every year, on public land without the help from a guide, both non residents and residents. i wish the DWR would make you acknowledge a statement either before applying or after drawing that you understand this hunt is designed to give kids more opportunities to go hunting. thats it, nothing more.

i will agree with the cattle cartel freeloading moochers that are destroying our public resources. i firmly believe its time to remind those ranchers whos land they are grazing on, because if you want to talk about someone who really feels entitled, they are at the top of the list.

i dont know where you are from, but it sounds like you arent local due to the fact you arent aware of how the GS elk units in utah are run. hunting elk every year may not be possible where you are from. if thats the case, i understand why you would say your kid might not hunt them again. but if they are in your area, the only way to get better at elk hunting, is by going elk hunting and i encourage you to try and give your son a better elk hunting experience.




@screaminseagull

 

[BLooDTRaCKeR]

Interesting read. I never got a chance at a tag like that. I killed my first elk at the age of 22. I went empty-handed for the next five years until dad and I decided it was time to do a little scouting for a new area (because our area was too crowded with hunters).

Fast forward to now. I kill a bull every year on a general season unit. (More luck than anything) But I still measure success by what I learned. Not what I killed. The meat fills my freezer. The experience fills my hunting journal and provides me with an education on a species that I absolutely enjoy studying.

The memories with my dad on all these elk hunts are priceless. I cannot think of one time while elk hunting with dad over the past 28 years where I did not grow closer to that old man.

Elk hunting is not about the kill. I cannot imagine what it would be like to walk away empty-handed from a hunt and feel like there was something else to blame for the experience. I do hunt hard. I do feel the effects of disappointment when things do not go the way I expected them to. But, I feel a deeper appreciation for the hunt when I can walk away with an education and memories that encourage me to look forward to the next year.

Nothing ever is what we expect it to be. Sometimes it is better. Sometimes it is not.

 

[roadrunner]

As a non-resident, there are better options to fill a tag than the UT any bull youth.

As far as a first elk goes, why does it have to be a bull? Shooting a cow is normally "easier" and a way to seed the enticement to keep going back again and again and again...

I wouldn't let my daughters try for a bull until they experienced some elk hunting and killing first by taking a couple of cows. That way they could see just how difficult hunting and shooting a bull can be and understand that it is never a guarantee to bring home horns.

 

[mevertsen]

Cows are not the problem.

I have killed elk in close proximity to cows.

It's a tough hunt with low success.

Unfortunately, you put your kid in for a tough hunt expecting success only to be measured in a kill.

You set him up for failure, not the cows.

 

[wapitiman]

+1 deerkiller

 

[Aaron84]

+1 deerkiller +1 mevertsen

 

[Rebar_Guy]

My 12 and 13 year old daughters both drew tags this year. We are non residents and my brothers and I scouted over the Labor Day weekend. I got a few tips from MM Members and one tip from one of the Epic crew. While scouting the South Slope we saw 15 elk and a ton of deer, we did see more cows than anything else by far. What amazed me was all of the people do to it being a three day weekend, there were trailers, side by sides and quads everywhere. Everyone we talked to were friendly and helpful once I told them we were scouting for my daughters. When we returned to hunt it was a different story. We saw a total of 5 elk in 5 1/2 days and there were 7 of us in the field. 4 of the elk were on Indian land. My 13 year old daughter was lucky enough to get the opportunity at a shot and smoked this spike with one shot through the heart. We ran into a few other hunters that were also successful with small bulls. It was a great adventure that we will never forget. My lucky little girls also drew buck tags so I will hopefully be starting a post in the mule deer thread in a month or so. Thanks to those of you that helped us.

 

[BIGJOHNT]

Congrats to the young ladies ! I am assuming they both drew the youth any bull tag. You said you saw a few cow's. With that tag the other young lady could have taken a cow. It's a little confusing calling it a any bull tag. But a youth can shoot a bull or a cow on the tag.

 

[ditchparrot]

I would also not get discouraged. Although you put in your time and energy, learn from this year and maybe he or another youth can draw in the future and you can help them. I think with hunting, a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time is the key.

 

[heartshot]

That youth hunt is tough. So is the general any bull hunt a week or so later in the same areas but with exponentially more people in the field. I know lots of yearly general any bull elk hunters that only connect once every ten years or so. After 20+ years of trial and error some find the right spot that lets then connect once every 3-4 years. It is very understandable that hunters do not want to fork out info on their spots. We get judged as greedy people not forking out info for the youth hunt. Once you tell the Dad your spot, and they are successful. Guess who is back in your spot for the general hunt every year from then on out? Along with all their friends and relatives.

5 years of unsuccessful youth elk draws for my daughter so far. I'm saving my spots for her.

 

[SWAGshootn]

I can't help but say... you sure do play the ?victim? card well. Of all the lessons you taught you son, the ?pay to Play? comment has to be one of the worst. Your sense of entitlement of a guaranteed bull kills me. It's called hunting. It's called time with your son.

Time to rethink your hobbies

 

[desperatehills]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-19 AT 10:54AM (MST)[p]Maximus B.S. with 2 post.

This post seems so off to me I wonder if they are not making the whole thing up just to get a reaction out of you guys.

 

[maximusbs]

>As a non-resident, there are better
>options to fill a tag
>than the UT any bull
>youth.
>
>As far as a first elk
>goes, why does it have
>to be a bull?
>Shooting a cow is normally
>"easier" and a way to
>seed the enticement to keep
>going back again and again
>and again...
>
>I wouldn't let my daughters try
>for a bull until they
>experienced some elk hunting and
>killing first by taking a
>couple of cows. That
>way they could see just
>how difficult hunting and shooting
>a bull can be and
>understand that it is never
>a guarantee to bring home
>horns.

I was looking forward to hearing about your ?better? option for a UT elk hunt...? Please elaborate.
You (along with other responses) also seem to have got the impression that we expected a trophy, or even a bull from the Youth hunt. We would have been thrilled beyond words to have SEEN or heard anything in the 6 days of hunting every biologist recommended area (which is all we had to go on) in the two general units we hunted! A cow, or even a 3-legged, blind calf, would have been a trophy for us! However, I will own that the failure is my own fault. Even with the week we spent scouting (found lots of old sign and felt confident that elk used the areas at one time) and the 6 days of hard hunting; the DWR biologists ho-hum recommendations and the battle with cattle conspired to frustrate our every move. We were first time elk hunters, with myself only taken 4 deer in my lifetime. Add on top that we were out of state and had nobody to rely on for guidance. I thought I had done enough to prepare, that's where I failed.

 

[Aaron84]

You relying on others, and making the hunt all about killing an animal is where you failed. Successful or unsuccessful shouldn't have been the main purpose of your boys hunt. It should have been about the two of you spending time together making memories that will last a life time. Being successful is the bonus to the hunt. The real trophy is the memories you made. And FYI if you never hunted elk before then maybe you should have put your son in for something else, like deer. Not a youth elk hunt with low success, out of state as well.

 

[maximusbs]

>

>My 12 and 13 year old
>daughters both drew tags this
>year. We are non residents
>and my brothers and I
>scouted over the Labor Day
>weekend. I got a few
>tips from MM Members and
>one tip from one of
>the Epic crew. While scouting
>the South Slope we saw
>15 elk and a ton
>of deer, we did see
>more cows than anything else
>by far. What amazed me
>was all of the people
>do to it being a
>three day weekend, there were
>trailers, side by sides and
>quads everywhere. Everyone we talked
>to were friendly and helpful
>once I told them we
>were scouting for my daughters.
>When we returned to hunt
>it was a different story.
>We saw a total of
>5 elk in 5 1/2
>days and there were 7
>of us in the field.
>4 of the elk were
>on Indian land. My 13
>year old daughter was lucky
>enough to get the opportunity
>at a shot and smoked
>this spike with one shot
>through the heart. We ran
>into a few other hunters
>that were also successful with
>small bulls. It was a
>great adventure that we will
>never forget. My lucky little
>girls also drew buck tags
>so I will hopefully be
>starting a post in the
>mule deer thread in a
>month or so. Thanks to
>those of you that helped
>us.

The look on their face is awesome! I bet your face is still beaming! I'm glad to see a nonresident get it done. I think I know about where you were. We should have started there! We didn't figure out that they had all gone towards the rez until about 5 days into the hunt. We saw a raghorn go to bed at 1000 yds for about 60 seconds out there and never saw him or any other elk again.

 

[maximusbs]

>LAST EDITED ON Sep-23-19
>AT 12:53?PM (MST)
>
>its sad and somewhat comical to
>see how many people fall
>for the youth any bull
>trap, year after year after
>year.... its not a LE
>tag, quit treating it as
>such. its simply a way
>to give youth more "opportunity"
>to go hunting, nothing more.
>
>
>im sorry to hear your son
>is falling victim to the
>snowflake mentality that is becoming
>a plague in todays youth.
>these kids feel entitled to
>everything, apparently even when it
>comes to killing an elk.
>there are guys who have
>been hunting elk for 50
>years that cant fill an
>any bull tag but every
>few years, at best! and
>your kid feels like he
>deserves one after 8 days
>of hunting? thats unfortunate. if
>you doubt he will hunt
>elk again unless he can
>afford a high dollar tag,
>then maybe you need to
>take a step back and
>look at it as maybe
>you failed the hunt for
>him, not the unnotched tag.
>i didnt kill an elk
>my first year. or second.
>or third. finally on my
>4th year of hunting i
>finally killed a cow in
>january with a rifle after
>who knows how many days
>i spent hunting them. success
>became more frequent after that.
>why did i keep hunting
>them if i wasnt successful?
>my dad made those hunts
>about the experience, not the
>harvest. we had alot of
>great hunts together when we
>never even saw an elk!
>but i still had fun
>trying and wanted to have
>more experiences. never once did
>i feel entitled to kill
>an elk. many of the
>elk i have killed since,
>i dont feel like i
>earned or was entitled to
>them. to me, i see
>the failed elk hunt on
>your part, not the elk,
>or lack of elk. if
>your kid quits hunting elk
>after his first and only
>experience, i doubt killing one
>would have made much more
>of a difference.
>
>these youth hunts are low success,
>always have been, always will
>be. but a few kids
>fill tags every year, on
>public land without the help
>from a guide, both non
>residents and residents. i wish
>the DWR would make you
>acknowledge a statement either before
>applying or after drawing that
>you understand this hunt is
>designed to give kids more
>opportunities to go hunting. thats
>it, nothing more.
>
>i will agree with the cattle
>cartel freeloading moochers that are
>destroying our public resources. i
>firmly believe its time to
>remind those ranchers whos land
>they are grazing on, because
>if you want to talk
>about someone who really feels
>entitled, they are at the
>top of the list.
>
>i dont know where you are
>from, but it sounds like
>you arent local due to
>the fact you arent aware
>of how the GS elk
>units in utah are run.
>hunting elk every year may
>not be possible where you
>are from. if thats the
>case, i understand why you
>would say your kid might
>not hunt them again. but
>if they are in your
>area, the only way to
>get better at elk hunting,
>is by going elk hunting
>and i encourage you to
>try and give your son
>a better elk hunting experience.
>
>
>
>
>
>@screaminseagull

screaminseagull,
Thank you for your lengthy and passionate response. I may have given you the wrong idea about my son. He is definitely NOT associated with anything ?snowflake.? He wears a MAGA hat to school and we live in Southern California! He can however, do the math. We have never elk hunted before. So when he said ?you gotta pay to win?, he knows that our tag costs $400 and an LE tag costs $800 and takes 20 years to draw. Your odds of success are higher with the LE tag. Then you add a guide, outfitter or a 100 trail cameras...pay to win. There are some exceptions, but I think he's pretty much got it.
I said he may not hunt elk again. It's not because we expected someone to hand us a trophy bull. It also not because we felt entitled to get our tag filled on a low success hunt. It's more like the DWR (our ONLY source for information) may have left a few things out and overestimated others. Did you know they said that the Kamas success rate on this hunt was 40% according to Hunt Planner!? I think that's better than any LE unit in the state! Can you see how a boy could get his hopes too high? They also said that some elk would move to the res after hunting pressure...they had a small snow flurry and archery season and ALL the elk went to the res. They also forgot to mention that cattle and sheep would be ravaging all the spots the biologists suggested held elk. So, no, they don't need to make the Youth hunters sign some disclaimer to warn them they have a snowball?s chance in **** of seeing an elk...just be honest about the habitat getting wrecked by cattle and explain how they claim 40 % of youth hunters managed to get an elk last year in Kamas.

 

[Aaron84]

All I read, is you literally passing the blame onto everyone else but you and playing the victim card. It was the Dwr?s fault, it was the cattle?s fault, it was ppl on mm?s fault for not telling us exactly where to go. You and your son could have made a trip or two out her and scouted it out yourself instead of relying on everyone else to do it for you. Sense Utah is so bad to hunt, is it safe to say you won't be hunting Utah anymore? I sure hope you won't be.

 

[HorseCreek]

I honestly woulda helped you had I seen you looked for help earlier. But then again from what I'm seeing about your attitude is I woulda been blamed for your lack of success and most likely not thanked had your son scored. I sure hope your son isn't reading your entitled opinion and rant. It?ll be poison to his hunting and outdoor life going forward. Maybe relish the time in the woods with your son whether you kill an elk or not.
I don't like cattle in my hunting are either but it is what it is. There will still be elk there...

))))----------->

 

[Trix4me]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-19 AT 02:27PM (MST)[p]LOL I hate to rain on any ones parade but my nephew's son (great nephew)drew the youth tag. He went out with his dad and grandfather on Thursday afternoon, they went to a popular hunting area on the south slope. Grandpa told them to watch a water hole while he walked down a draw toward the pond to see if there might be sign enough to return in the morning. Not long afterwards a good 6X6 came off the ridge towards them and he shot his first elk. Less than an hour after they got there. I'm thinking he might have the wrong impression about general elk hunting in Utah. I've hunted that area for 20+ years and there has been cattle every year. God's country.

 

[BIGJOHNT]

>LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-19
>AT 02:27?PM (MST)
>
>LOL I hate to rain on
>any ones parade but
>my nephew's son (great
>nephew)drew the youth tag. He
>went out with his dad
>and grandfather on Thursday
>afternoon, they went to a
>popular hunting area on the
>south slope. Grandpa told them
>to watch a water hole
>while he walked down a
>draw toward the pond to
>see if there might be
>sign enough to return in
>the morning. Not long afterwards
>a good 6X6 came off
>the ridge towards them and
>he shot his first elk.
>Less than an hour after
>they got there. I'm thinking
>he might have the wrong
>impression about general elk hunting
>in Utah. I've hunted
>that area for 20+ years
>and there has been cattle
>every year. God's country.

It didn't happen without a picture !

 

[Trix4me]

Yup. Lol. Tell me that tomorrow after I spend the next several hours butchering the non existent 6x6

 

[Elkslayer2015]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-02-19 AT 01:35PM (MST)[p]I've hunted with cattle for 25 years and they have never been a problem Cattle has nothing to do with the outcome of your sons hunt

This hunt is a rut hunt plain and simple people will say otherwise but it is during the rut sounds like to me the elk wasn't in that area I have 15 different hunting spots for that reason if I can't find elk in one area then I move to another area.

I'm not buying the toxic water source at all from cattle either cattle are in the ponds on the mountain that I hunt,and yeah there doing there business right in it and yeah it looks terrible but guess what I see,not only the cattle are still drinking out of it but so are the deer and elk to it doesn't bother them

The elk don't get pushed on the reservation because of cattle or private land they get pushed by hunting pressure,and weather and lack of feed which isn't the case this year,the cattle are off the mountain where I hunt and there is still plenty of feed and lots of Elk

Remember Utah is not the only state that runs cattle on the forest or blm.

 

[marley]

I hunted the any bull Utah hunt from the age of 14 until I was 22 before I shot my first elk. I hunted the same areas you are talking about, DIY, public land, cattle everywhere, sheep everywhere, and the indian land was there. None of this is an excuse. One day the whole elk hunting thing clicked and me and my 3 friends killed a bull every year for the next 5 years in the same area with the same damn cattle and sheep. You see, we learned as we went and didn't give up. This was also before the youth hunt so it was much later after the rut. Sad that your son thinks you have to "pay to win." That's total crap! You have to work to win, persist to win. I call this hunt a failure on your part, not the area, not the cows or sheep, not the DWR, YOU! Persistence, patience and work win.

 

[maximusbs]

ummm, we actually spent a week scouting 4 units -Then two more days before the hunt. I think I also blamed myself plenty. So, we put in all the hard work ourselves, and didn't rely on anyone else but incomplete data from dwr. So, thanks for the encouragement, but I think I took plenty of blame. Oh, don't worry, I'm not giving up on Utah. We just learned a ton about how things really work and how NOT to hunt elk. I've met some real nice people in Utah and maybe someday I'll meet you.
cheers

 

[maximusbs]

Thank you! I sincerely appreciate your encouragement. I have a younger son

 

[maximusbs]

That actually makes sense. Well said.

 

[maximusbs]

>I hunted the any bull Utah
>hunt from the age of
>14 until I was 22
>before I shot my first
>elk. I hunted the
>same areas you are talking
>about, DIY, public land, cattle
>everywhere, sheep everywhere, and the
>indian land was there.
>None of this is an
>excuse. One day the
>whole elk hunting thing clicked
>and me and my 3
>friends killed a bull every
>year for the next 5
>years in the same area
>with the same damn cattle
>and sheep. You see,
>we learned as we went
>and didn't give up.
>This was also before the
>youth hunt so it was
>much later after the rut.
> Sad that your son
>thinks you have to "pay
>to win." That's total
>crap! You have to
>work to win, persist to
>win. I call this
>hunt a failure on your
>part, not the area, not
>the cows or sheep, not
>the DWR, YOU! Persistence, patience
>and work win.

Fair enough. I shouldn't expect anything without paying dues first (learning and persistence). I think my son (and I) understood that towards the end. We changed spots and actually started seeing some elk and learning their movements. But we just ran out of time. I think his pay to win comment still applies, though. If you pay, you bypass the learning, patience and persistence to get the win. It's just not the same and working for and earning it.