Utah Youth Hunting Age Bill

H

HuntElk4Fun_

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-06 AT 03:48PM (MST)[p]Knowing how well the bill did this year to lower the age to 12, it's most likely it will "make it" next year.

If you aren't familiar with the bill here it is:
http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2006/bills/hbillamd/hb0329.pdf

This post isn't to debate what the age limit should be, but raise the question, why limit kids from 12-14 years old? If a kid is old enough to chase big game, why have something in there to limit them from putting in for LE hunts? To me, this is just stupid.

"Son.. you can chase that elk over here, not that really big elk over there.. you have to be 14 to put in." HUH? WHAT?

Anyone care to explain the logic behind this? Besides the fact that adults might feel picked on that more of these coveted tags might not goto them? :)

P.S. And they can't even buy a point? Why open the door, yet discriminate?

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
LOL - I have to admit Kirt, when this was brought up at our SFW board meeting, I threw a bit of a fit and ask the SFW board to support NOT the proposal but NOT to allow 12 and 13 year olds to apply for limited entry tags and once-in-a-lifetime.

My feeling is that we already have to many people in the application system and that by dumping all the new kids in would hurt odds even more, all at once.

Maybe if we can get the "Pay Up-Front" stuff through, the rule can change in years to come.

We need to get a handle on the draw odds problem before dumping even more applications into the system.

12 and 13 year olds will get plenty of opportunity and when they turn 14, can begin applying.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I agree with brian. How many of us started when we were 14? Not very many, I would give anything to have 16 points for ELK. Wait a minute, I guess I would actually have a big bull on the wall..Damn.





 
Makes perfect sense from an odds standpoint. It would definitely add more to the picture, no doubt about that. I guess I just found it odd some exclusion would be in there like that since they are saying it's OK to hunt at 12.

Didn't look it up to verify, but I guess they would be eligible for the Youth Elk hunt.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
I agree with OddNut1.

Founder, I will say it agian. Your proposal will not do anything to change the draw odds for residents. Most if not all resident applicants will put in the cost for the tag upfront. So nothing will be gained.

Also, it doesn't seem right to deny 12 and 13 year olds a chance at LE hunts, because others think they deserve a tag before them.
 
>Anyone care to explain the logic
>behind this? Besides the
>fact that adults might feel
>picked on that more of
>these coveted tags might not
>goto them? :)
>


HA,ha,ha,you are one of the funniest guys I have ever met. Logic in a bill written by and for a multitude of organizations and government entyties (sp)????? That is by far the funniest thing I have heard. They can pack a gun but they can't apply for a tag, makes perfect sense to the people the bill was written for.

Logic??? Stop it Oddnut my side hurts. :)
 
Rackster - I completely disagree. I would bet that the first year after it is implemented that the number of applicants will decrease.
AND, most importantly, the trend of increasing numbers of people applying will hopefully begin to level off a bit.

We can sit by and do nothing, but it won't get better the way it is now, that we know for sure. Why not try something.
I believe there are lots of wives, aunts, uncles, and others out there who apply for the most part because it is cheap and easy to do so. Some will drop out if forced to front the money. If they don't front the money, they don't get a point.

I am very confident and hopeful that it WILL make a difference. It may not be THE solution that will solve everything, but is is just one step, OF MANY, to improving the system.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Founder,

You guy's are wrong to exclude anyone from the draw. Plain and simple that is descrimination. Your reason is it will increase odds? That is weak and wrong. If they can hunt they should be entitled to apply. I can at least see why the other proposals but this one is whacked!
 
Hey, no one is stoppng people from applying. EVERYONE will still be able to apply. In fact, they can apply without paying up-front, no they would get no points.

The proposal I'm pushing is not the "Fix All", but it will help and that's the first step. How is it benefiting anyone if there's 350,000 applicants for 5,000 tags in 8 years?
The ONLY people who will come out a winner are max bonus point holders and the VERY, VERY lucky folks who beat 1-200 odds.

Something needs to change. It's a cheap lottery that more and more people are playing every year. For $5.00, people would almost have to be crazy not to be applying for our elk and deer hunts. And, apply everyone you know, because the loopholes will give you an advantage over everyone else. Crazy!!!!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Founder,

You're right! We completely disagree!!!! I do not think it will make any difference in the draw odds for residents. And I fail to see how uor proposal will level off the amount of applicants in the future. Non-residents - Yes. Residents No.
 
SO NOW I FEEL THAT THE SFW,MM AND THE STATE OF UTAH WILL NOT WELCOME A POSITIVE HUNTING EXPERANCE FOR OR OUR CHILDERN EVEN IF IT MEAN A FEW OF THOSE PRICELESS LE TAGS.....
And now I am looking at all three of you with differant eyes...
Do you BRIAN feel you are making a differance?
We all want a change in the defunked draw system and some LE back in the kitty! HOWEVER UTAH need to change the age to twelve and have special LE(even just does,cows,spike hunts) youth hunts that end when a child become 16...... like every other state(I think?)!
rm
 
I hope that sue happy guy GEORGE (tillman?) doesnt have any kids and is not reading this!
it SCREAMS discrimination!
The pay up front issue is to labor attentive and cost money and will lose lots of revenue by casting aside folks who can only use plastic.....I can and do pay cash for every thing and it would never stop me from applying even if GAS IS 5 buck a gal..which is another issue why pay up front will never be adopted..make hunting a financial burden and the state will lose more money than it will take in and then all LE tags will be on E BAY .... in which all funds will be payed up front and with plastic!
jack
 
Founder,

I have been in pretty much complete agreement with you on all these proposed changes up until this one. I can not believe what I am reading is being written by you. You seem to be completely contradicting your self. In all your other posts you have been fighting to get a hold of the draw odds so you and YOUR BOY?S will some day have a chance at drawing a tag. You have been concerned about your boys never being able to draw a tag. Now for some unknown reason you want to make them wait even longer before they can even start applying for a tag. Come on Brian you can not seriously be that selfish.

As a father of two boys and a girl of my own, I hope that they will some day have a chance at drawing a tag in the state of Utah. So I too am concerned about the odds and where they are going.

Do we need to do something about it? YES.

Is making everyone pay up front for the tags going to help with the draw odds? I hope so. Only time will tell.

Is this going to be the magic cure that fixes everything? Not Likely.

Is it OK to change the current age limit to hunt big game in the state of Utah to 12 and then tell them they can not apply for a limited entry tag? Absolutely NOT!

When your children (mine too) get old enough to start hunting you have got to have a change of hart. It's no longer how big of a buck can I get to put up on the wall. It's all (or at least should be) about the kids. Quite being so gosh dang selfish and let the kids have a little fun when the time comes.

If the law gets changed so they can start hunting big game in the state of Utah at the age of 12, they should also be able to apply for a limited entry tag that same year.

400bull
 
I'm not a resident (although I feel a kinship since I went to school in SLC...) and don't really see myself applying for limited entry permits in Utah in the future, but this topic grabbed my attention for some reason.

Brian, I see you talking alot about increasing draw odds, but what about increasing opportunity? Here in AZ, kids can hunt big game at 10 years old (scary, I know... ;-) ). They can be in the draws with all the rest of us, any draw. Seems to me like that's fair. Also, most folks I know put their kids in for the higher opportunity hunts, as opposed to the premium hunts. This is to get the kids involved, but for those that want to put in for the trophy hunts, I think they should be allowed to. In the grand scheme of things, I don't really see how it wil decrease your odds that much.

Good luck up in Utah all! Either way we all look at it, times are a changin. I'm not too optimistic about what the future might bring when it comes to our children being able to hunt.

Now how about the AZ draw results???

S.

:)
 
Brian I couldn't disagree more. I am shocked that someone would rather withhold their son or daughter the chance to draw at 12 or 13 in order to better their odds.

I would much rather one of my sons shoot a LE Bull at 12 than me shoot one.

If SFW is backing this count this member OUT!
 
I have to agree with Founder on this one. The odds are bad enough as it is.
IMO, A 12 year old kid drawing a limited entry tag and killing a 380 inch bull or 190 inch buck is spoiling them. It's like buying them a Corvett when they turn 16. They need to pay there dues just like everyone else so when they do get a whack at a big buck or bull on a limited entry hunt they will appreciate what it took to produce and kill such a magnificent animal. My 14 year old neighbor kid drew a pahvant elk tag a few years back with 0 points. A couple of local guys that were nuts about elk and knew the area well took him out on opening morning (free of charge) and pointed to a 380 bull and the kid killed it. Incidentally his brother in law put him in for the hunt and I know the kid and his family well.They have very little interest in hunting. I personally think it's BS that people with 0-4 points even have a shot at a Limited entry tag.I think they should put a 4 point rule in affect. You need 4 points before your even allowed into the draw or maybe something similar to what CO does.

Mike
 
MIKEY...
You can never beat lady luck... some have all the luck!
but listening to you guys whine is like a kick in the nut's...
no ones saying that their kids only want to draw an LE tag SO THEY CAN HARVEST THE BIGGEST BUCK OR BULL!(if they are their wrong and its dad telling them that and dad is wrong...).
MY SON SHOULD HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS TO DRAW AS ANY OF YOU....(as soon as law allow)
Times are different now and every thing cost more! Utah does not care about the draw and what we think about it and the age thing will change soon and you can cry about it all you want!!
It was never about the drawing of LE Tags it was about school, and being mature, positive hunting experiances in the state of UTAH!
So now its going to change and they at the UDWR will hope that the parents of the youths can use common sense!(about is the child ready to hunt, school, etc!) so get out your hanky bud!!!!!
rm
 
Spoiling a kid by letting them draw a tag!!! What a bunch of whining hipocrites. I see a lot of words on the screen but all I hear is "me me me me me". What better way to get kids into hunting than by letting them experience the anticipation of the draw? Or would you ralther lose themn to nintendo by the time they are old enough to apply. Most of us won't get a premium tag, but at least give everyone a chance. I agree with a lot of the ideas posted here by Brian and others, but this is plain Retarded.

Andy
 
Rackmaster, last time I checked this was a post asking for our opinions about 12 year olds getting to hunt.Remember, I didn't make this post I just stated my opinion. Consequently, a guy states his opinion and gets accused of whining. I'm still trying to figure that one out.
Utah has some of the worst draw odds of any State out west and yet you want to dump 20,000 or more 12 & 13 year olds into the limited entry draw system.I personally don't have a problem with 12 year olds hunting big game if they are ready and prepared to do so. I mean, why dont we just do away with the age limit period and let parents put their infant children in so when they can shoulder a rifle they can have better odds of pulling a premium tag. Where do we draw the line?
Call me old fashion, but I dont believe kids should get a monetary inheritance, I don't think they need a new car when they turn 16, and I sure as heck don't think a 12 year old needs to be hunting a limited entry unit his first year out.
UDWR could give a rats a$$ about whats good for the wildlife and whats good for our younger generation. They care only for the monetary gain. Three things will happen if the age limit is lowered 1)More hunters afield( the dwr will somehow justify giving more permits so they can increase profits) 2)Draw odds go from bad to worse 3)The DWR makes more money. The General Public loses, the wildlife loses, and personally I think the younger kids lose because they never learn to appreciate what hunting is all about. There is only one winner and thats the DWR.

Take care,Mike
 
DWR Estimates 5000 additional hunters adding the 12 & 13 yr olds.

"Where do we draw the line?" -- Simple, if you can hunt big game, you can put in for anything that is a big game hunt. Also, people keep comparing this to driving. Well, 16 is the legal age and a 16 yr can drive anything a 18, 30, 65 yr old can. So are we supposed to tell the 16 yr old, sorry you can't drive that Vet over there? You can only drive this Geo Metro until your 21 son. (not saying any kid should drive a stinking vet)

Point is, comparing driving to this is perfect. It sounds really stupid when you think about it from a driving standpoint, just as it is stupid from a hunting one. Bottomline, if you can hunt, your in everything, if you can drive, you can drive everything.

They only valid reason 12/13 should be excluded is selfishness and that won't stand up in a court of law if someone does challenge this from a discrimination standpoint.

I'm off to work up a list of cars that my son can drive when he's 16, then another list for 18, then another at 21.... Heck, am I OK to drive my truck at age 30? Crap, better check the list.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
PERSONALLY....I think you should be a minimum age of 55 before you can apply for LE tags. We've "done our time" and deserve some kind of break.:) What better way to increase the draw odds?

Just trying to help!

Steve
 
Oddnut, if you are so concerned with odds as your name describes why do you want to increase the pool? Ok I'll agree with you, if 12 year olds are allowed to hunt big game they should have the right to put in for limited entry hunts. However, that is not the issue here. The issue is: "should we let 12 year olds hunt big game in Utah." My vote is no. I think it is good to let them hunt small game for two years. It allows them time to develop as a hunter and to hopefully learn from a responsible adult the ethics of hunting.
I think you are missing the whole point of the car and driving analogy. Yes, a kid has a right to drive anything he or his parents will allow him to drive.My point is do you buy your kid a brand new car when he turns sixteen or let him get a job so he can learn work ethic and than help him get something he can afford and is practical for his income. The same is true with limited entry tags. Do we let our 12 year olds cut their teeth on a limited entry tag or work hard on a public land unit and harvest a respectable animal that they will appreciate far more.

Mike
 
Mike-

You missed the purpose of this post, check my original post above:
"This post isn't to debate what the age limit should be, but raise the question, why limit kids from 12-14 years old?"

This thread isn't to argue the acutal age.

The driving analogy is perfect, it makes the point that once you are of legal age to do something, you shouldn't be limited on the vehicles you can drive, just as you shouldn't be limited on the LE tags you can hunt.

I get your point perfectly about driving, I just think your jumping past the real issue. You agree someone can drive at 16, but argue what we should let them drive. Well, everyone is different. Some parents think buying their kid a car at 16 is great, some don't. Some thinking buying their kid an expensive hunt at 14, 12, whatever is great, some don't. I personally don't think parents should do either, but that's not the issue either. My son this year will be breaking his teeth on a cow hunt in Wyoming. We are both excited for him to experience his first hunt, no matter what the tag says.

Finally, regarding my own odds obsession, yes, I'm an odds geek. I'm obsessed with odds trends, maximizing my points, my opportunities and the number of experiences everyone in my family might be able to enjoy with well thought out plans when it comes to odds. BUT, and most importantly, that doesn't mean I'm obsessed increasing my own odds due to selfishness.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
Oddnut, reguarding your post particularly the last part where you say "P.S. And they can't even buy a point? Why open the door, yet discriminate?" I agree if we open the door they should be given all the oppurtunities everyone else will have. I guess we are agreeing on this issue. I don't, however, agree that the door should even be opened for 12 & 13 year olds. Why not open the door for illegal immigrants, or for 9-13 year olds. The line was drawn at 14 and I think that is where it should stay. I know you mentioned in your post "This thread isn't to argue the acutal age" so I apologize for hijacking your post. With draw odds getting worse every year, I am against anything that will decrease them even more. I also feel that most 12&13 year olds will have little interest in putting in for these hunts. They are just happy to be hunting deer in the mountains with Dad. The parents will put the kid in because they want them to draw not because the kid actually wants to draw. That is one of the big problems we have with our current draw system. You have guys putting in everyone they know wether they are interested in hunting a limited entry unit or not. The APP fee is cheap so why not.

Best, Mike
 
ANYONE 55 YRS OLD SHOULD NOT EVEN BE ALOUD TO DRIVE LET ALONE TAKE THEY'ER OWN MEDS,HANDLE SHARP OBJECTS AND FIREARMS!
STILL GOT TEETH?
LOL AND JUST KIDDING..
RM
 
Brian come on man how is a 12 year old going into the draw for the first time going to have any effect on all of you guy's with max points???

Why would the conservation orgs. support this bill and then promptly chop the legs out from under it by restricting the
whole point of lowering the age limit ( to get kids involved in hunting and improve hunter recruitment )? SFW constantly and I mean constantly tells every person that they are a grass roots
organization fighting for its members. Which members?? those that pay upfront?? those that are over 12?? and my all time favorite those that are more serious??

For Christ sake quit trying to exclude people because you all feel so entitled to what you think is yours!! Enough!! We have grown a bigger pie!! LET PEOPLE HUNT!! ALL PEOPLE!! NOT JUST WHO SFW HAND PICKS!!
 
ALL YOU GUYS THAT HAVE KIDS ...JUST E MAIL DWR COMMENTS AND SAY YOU FAVOR THE AGE REQ'D BILL THAT WOULD DROP THE AGE TO 12! ASK TO FORWORD TO WHO IT CONCERNS! IT HELPS FOR SURE!!
IT EASY AND THEY WILL ALWAYS REPLY!
THANK'S
RM
 
I personally sent an email to every RAC member and DWR Comments and would encourage you all to do the same no matter where you stand on this issue. Emailing them will go 100 times further than posts on internet forums.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 

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