Watch today's Wildlife Board meeting

A

Amy

Active Member
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The Utah Wildlife Board will meet this morning at 9 a.m. Today's agenda covers a wide range of topics, including the 2019 big game and waterfowl hunts as well as the bighorn sheep and mountain goat management plans.

If you can't attend the meeting in person, we're broadcasting it live via YouTube.

Amy Canning
Communications Specialist
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
 
And I Quote:

"Spike Hunting can be Favorable!"

Take a Close Look at the Book Cliffs!

The Spike Slaughters for a number of Years have almost Destroyed this Unit!

Might as Well make them LE MOTL Units!







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I Don't Think You have to worry about any Bucks or Bulls in this State Dieing of Old Age!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>So instead of spike hunts what
>do you propose?

Absolutely NONE in the LE Units!

GEEZUS!

They Are Our Future Big Bulls!

And that's what LE Units were meant to be!

If You wanna Shoot PISSCUTTERS & Shoot a Herd out the DWR needs to set 2 Units up for that & Let em Kill Everything!

I Guess not too many of you Have Noticed the Decline of Big Bulls in LE Units the last few years?













I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
What about those people that would rather have a nice fat spike in the freezer every year rather than a LE tag every 20 years. I for one do not want to get rid of the spike hunts. They are the last over the counter permits available. The last chance for families and friends to go buy tags and have a hunt together.
 
I've definitely seen a decline in bigger bulls on the Manti, but I'm no biologist and I'm not convinced hunting spikes is the reason. Not saying your wrong but I think they give out too many LE tags and have too many hunts now on the units. I agree with Elkantlers, I enjoy hunting elk and if they just have the anybull units and a couple new units it's going to be a sea of pumpkins, which we all like right.
 
>I've definitely seen a decline in
>bigger bulls on the Manti,
>but I'm no biologist and
>I'm not convinced hunting spikes
>is the reason. Not saying
>your wrong but I think
>they give out too many
>LE tags and have too
>many hunts now on the
>units. I agree with Elkantlers,
>I enjoy hunting elk
>and if they just have
>the anybull units and a
>couple new units it's going
>to be a sea of
>pumpkins, which we all like
>right.

Well!

If You've ever been in the Book Cliffs when the Spike Slaughter was going on it is a Sea of Pumpkins!

Like I said in a previous Post Elkantlers!

Get a couple Units started JUST for Pounding PISSCUTTERS/Spikes!

Pound them clear out,I Don't GAF!

If You haven't seen first hand what the Spike Hunt has done to the Book Cliffs You Ain't got a Clue!

Maybe Utah should start a Spike Only F'N Deer Hunt,they have Hunts for everything else!











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I haven't noticed it, but I haven't stepped foot on Books.

The Manti is absolutely NOT down for big bulls. The Manti is as good or better this year as any year in any of our lifetimes.

The Wasatch, from all accounts, bounced back in a big way this year.

Tell me two units more people spike hunt than those in this state?

Elk hunting in this state is awesome. That's why so many people want to do it.

Maybe if I wrote in all CAPS and end every sentence with an exclamation point bessy will believe me? :)
 
>I haven't noticed it, but I
>haven't stepped foot on Books.
>
>
>The Manti is absolutely NOT down
>for big bulls. The Manti
>is as good or better
>this year as any year
>in any of our lifetimes.
>
>
>The Wasatch, from all accounts, bounced
>back in a big way
>this year.
>
>Tell me two units more people
>spike hunt than those in
>this state?
>
>Elk hunting in this state is
>awesome. That's why so many
>people want to do it.
>
>
>Maybe if I wrote in all
>CAPS and end every sentence
>with an exclamation point bessy
>will believe me? :)

LOL!

Hey Niller!

The Quantity & Quality of Big Bulls is Down on several LE Units!

So From You & others I understand the Manti was Perty Damn Good this year!

How Many 390"+ Bulls were taken on the Manti this year?









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>I've definitely seen a decline in
>bigger bulls on the Manti,
>but I'm no biologist and
>I'm not convinced hunting spikes
>is the reason. Not saying
>your wrong but I think
>they give out too many
>LE tags and have too
>many hunts now on the
>units. I agree with Elkantlers,
>I enjoy hunting elk
>and if they just have
>the anybull units and a
>couple new units it's going
>to be a sea of
>pumpkins, which we all like
>right.

They HAVE added more LE tags on most of the elk units to decrease the age class being harvested.
Their target harvest age on bulls is 6.5 now, which is why we don't see as many 400" bulls as we did in the earlier 2000-2010 when we were harvesting dozens of 400+ bulls throughout the state.
 
The Bookcliffs elk are in trouble. As someone who spent over 100 days on the unit hunting and or scouting this year alone. Over the past 25 years I have spent close to that many days on the unit each year as well. For several decades the DWR drew somewhere around 200 big bull tags each season. The past several years the spike hunters have killed between 300 and 400 spikes as per the DWR. It doesn't take rocket science to see if you could only maintain quality with 200 big bull tags and you are killing twice that as spikes, the big bulls will vanish.
 
>The Bookcliffs elk are in trouble.
> As someone who spent
>over 100 days on the
>unit hunting and or scouting
>this year alone. Over the
>past 25 years I have
>spent close to that many
>days on the unit each
>year as well. For
>several decades the DWR drew
>somewhere around 200 big bull
>tags each season. The
>past several years the spike
>hunters have killed between 300
>and 400 spikes as per
>the DWR. It doesn't
>take rocket science to see
>if you could only maintain
>quality with 200 big bull
>tags and you are killing
>twice that as spikes, the
>big bulls will vanish.


Thanks for Chiming in pumaguy!

We need more Guys like you & your Input!

Nobody believes Me!

I'm just PISSIN in the Wind!

Wasting Oxygen!

Any Fool Managing a Herd of anything would not Slaughter the Calves!

This is How NOT to Manage Big Game!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
What Really Hurts is the DWR is Doing Nothing on the Management of the Book Cliffs Deer & Elk Herd to Try and turn it around!

With Status Quo Management you're gonna see some real POOR Quality in the Book Cliffs,We've seen it coming for several years & it really Shined this year!

GREED/MONEY & POOR MANAGEMENT at it's Best!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I LOVE THE SPIKE HUNT!!!!!!!

I DRIVE FROM OUT OF STATE EVERY YEAR TO HUNT!!!!!

MY HOPE IS THAT I CAN CONTINUE THE SPIKE HUNT FOR MANY YEARS TO COME!!!!!!!!!!!!




IT IS A GREAT HUNT!!!!!!!!!

I WANT TO ELK HUNT EVERY YEAR!!!!

I DO NOT WANT TO WAIT 20 YEARS FOR A LE TAG!!!!!!

BECAUSE I ENJOY HUNTING I WILL CONTINUE TO DRIVE MANY MILES TO UTAH TO KILL SPIKES!!!!!

MAYBE IF YOU WANT TO SHOOT 400 CLASS BULLS YOU SHOULD DO WHAT EVERYONE ELSE DOES!!!!

APPLY IN MULTIPLE STATES AND WAIT!!!!!!

WHILE I WAIT!!!!! I WILL KEEP HUNTING SPIKES ALL OVER THE GREAT STATE OF UTAH!!!!!


MAYBE ILL EVEN KILL ONE IN THE BOOK CLIFFS NEXT YEAR JUST SO I CAN SAY IVE SET FOOT IN THE UNIT!!!!!!!
 
There have been many people wait 20 years to have a chance at a 350 type bull on the Bookcliffs. 5-6 years ago, that was possible. Now a chance for a 350 bull is slim at best. Why, because of the spike hunt. Get rid of the spike hunt, the draw odds will go back to less than 20 years to draw a tag and hunt a true trophy. Your comment to wait is what is disturbing. People do wait, only to draw and find the unit they have put years into drawing only has a few raghorns. To top that off the overall population is going to be hurt. Can't have the cows being bred in late November and early December and have good calves the next year. I'm witnessing it happen right now. I'm not saying spikes can't be hunted, but not on every unit and the Bookcliffs is one of them.
 
The
>past several years the spike
>hunters have killed between 300
>and 400 spikes as per
>the DWR.

That's great news Puma. Thanks for sharing that info. 3-400 successful elk hunters on over the counter tags that can be had every year is a success story if there ever was one.
Much better than sitting on your thumb for 20 years waiting for a tag.
 
If Utah would put a mandatory harvest report to every LE Elk, deer, gneral elk, general spike or any big game animal, then and ONLY THEN, will we know that there were Exactly 355 spikes killed instead of between 300-400 spikes killed. And where were they harvested. And there were exactly 33% success rate on "X" unit for deer, or what ever it may be. It really isnt that hard. I did one for my Colorado deer hunt and had maybe 5 simple questions that tool me maybe 1 minute tops to answer. We have the technology. Why not use it.

I proposed this a few years ago at a RAC meeting and was told that its too hard since too many people dont have access to computers. And that there are too many old people not computer savvy. That was like 5-6 years ago. Come on! They have to apply by computer, why not answer 5 questions. And if Grandson Jonny wants to apply for grampa, he needs to answer his survey after the hunts. Kill a few birds with 1 stone if you know what I mean. And of the survey isnt filled out, they dont apply. Just like the LE hunts.
 
I agree 100%

As for the DWR answer of "Some people don't have access to computers", I call BS. Most bums on the street have a phone these days. Everyone has access, and if by some chance they don't, they can easily borrow a phone, use someone's computer, or go to the library for crying out loud!
 
Roibiland,

I whole heartedly agree with requiring mandatory harvest reporting on every big game tag issued in this state. If you don't report, you are disqualified from applying the next year for ANY big game permit or points.

I agree the computer excuse is lame with the apps all being online now, but even then, let there be an option to come fill out a hard copy at any division office. Boom, problem solved.

I would support this, and am willing to help you push it if you'd like to see it come up again.

Bessy- no clue on 390+ bulls on the Manti, but I've seen pics of two myself. And that unit is not managed for that size of bull anyway. There might be single units that are down this year, but it is not statewide. And I suspect other factors than hunting have a bigger impact than that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-18 AT 03:38PM (MST)[p]Fact, without mandatory harvest reports, the DWR has no idea what is going on! This proves that the DWR isn't even doing the minimum to try and manage wildlife in this state. The state is bankrupting hunting units of wildlife and their solution is to issue more tags.

If you want to hunt elk every year, then go to Colorado and buy an Archery over the counter tag. What's that you say, you don't bow hunt? Then I guess you don't take your hunting that seriously now. ;-)
 
My honest opinion, I know they aren't killing all the spikes, still see plenty with the cows during winter. To me the problem lies in killing too many cows. Killing spikes puts less bulls on the landscape so it's less competition when they're mature and breeding so there's less broken up bulls and less bulls run completely ragged from fighting. Let him be tired from breeding lol. Just need to make sure there's enough bulls to breed when the time is right.

Move the archery hunt back 2 weeks into pre rut and rut. Lower success rates, give them more of a chance. Run muzz the same time and give them a few days to be elk then rifle starts the following weekend. Yup that's the deer hunt opener but you'll have to choose what is more important to you that year...

To me that solves most of it.

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
beyond this why are they giving Sheep tags to archers? total BS, taking from ANY WEAPON and giving to archers? Every thing anymore caters to the archery hunters and they are complaining! Complaining they cant hunt the rut....well after all they can only shoot either sex, hunt the extended, exclude bear hunters on the book cliffs all for an excuse to exclude the majority and the greatest funding source so they can enjoy the increase in tags etc......can the board be re-called? better yet can the RAC be undone? there is no public input after all the sheep to archers was not on the agenda but it was voted on...?.a handful of folks are the ones that got this and all other things through, convention included. total BS....but after all this is my opinion and for those that will say do something about it... I have, I attend RAC's I provide input at every opportunity. My problem is that I don't have enough money to donate ( I use that word loosely) Utah wildlife management is and will remain in the hands of the elites until the state realizes they need to manage wildlife and not social behavior
 
>My honest opinion, I know they
>aren't killing all the spikes,
>still see plenty with the
>cows during winter. To me
>the problem lies in killing
>too many cows. Killing spikes
>puts less bulls on the
>landscape so it's less competition
>when they're mature and breeding
>so there's less broken up
>bulls and less bulls run
>completely ragged from fighting. Let
>him be tired from breeding
>lol. Just need to make
>sure there's enough bulls to
>breed when the time is
>right.
>
>Move the archery hunt back 2
>weeks into pre rut and
>rut. Lower success rates, give
>them more of a chance.
>Run muzz the same time
>and give them a few
>days to be elk then
>rifle starts the following weekend.
>Yup that's the deer hunt
>opener but you'll have to
>choose what is more important
>to you that year...
>
>To me that solves most of
>it.
>
>
>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg



Hey justr!

I know you were out there a year or two ago!

You're Sure gonna get an Awakening when you see what it's like now!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
340Wby I 'v hunted with a rifle for 20 plus years and I know how easy it is killing elk with a gun but I also know how extremely hard it is to kill one with a bow your chances of killing one with a bow are very low look at the success rate.

Now take the LE Archery hunts they have the big bull hunt going and the deer hunt going and the spike hunt going all at the same time

LE Muzzleloader elk and deer going at the same time


Early LE Rifle Hunt have just them they don't have to compete with nobody.


Archery hunters and the Muzzleloader hunters should be able to hunt the rut and what it your reasoning for why they shouldn't have it????
 
The way I look at it the "Any Weapon" elk hunt is just that. If you would like to use Archery equipment or a muzzleloader during that hunt be my guest. You are not putting in for a rifle tag. You are applying for a certain set of days to hunt that usually coincide with the elk rut. It will takes more points to get those dates. I know, some people will be all wadded up at the thought of hunting with a bow while others are using a rifle. I know it wouldn't be optimum the first weekend, But by Tuesday of the hunt an archery hunter would have the place to themselves.
I think we leave the hunt structure as it is and if you want to hunt the rut you will have to apply for the "Any weapon" hunt.
 
>Archery hunters and the Muzzleloader hunters
>should be able to hunt
>the rut and what it
>your reasoning for why they
>shouldn't have it????


It is because the DWR has harvest rates they need to meet to maintain bull to cow ratios and the rifle hunters and rut hunt is the most effective way to accomplish that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-18 AT 06:03PM (MST)[p]The rifle rut hunt dates are about one thing $$$....auction tags need to sell for a premium c'mon we all know that, kill the cream of the crop every year when they are stupid in the rut from 1000+ yards away. Don't make Doyle and the gang work harder!
 
Maybe the DWR knows of the proposed railroad that will run from Ouray through the Books to I-70. Knowing this would devastate the already declining unit, why would they be concerned with building it back or limiting spike hunting? My family has hunted the Books for over 35 years, and have had 6 elk tags in the last 5 years. Each year has been a very noticeable decline in numbers and quality.
 
>Maybe the DWR knows of the
>proposed railroad that will run
>from Ouray through the Books
>to I-70. Knowing this would
>devastate the already declining unit,
>why would they be concerned
>with building it back or
>limiting spike hunting? My family
>has hunted the Books for
>over 35 years, and have
>had 6 elk tags in
>the last 5 years. Each
>year has been a very
>noticeable decline in numbers and
>quality.

I highly doubt a railroad would have much effect, there are rails through other units and have been for decades.
 
>Maybe the DWR knows of the
>proposed railroad that will run
>from Ouray through the Books
>to I-70. Knowing this would
>devastate the already declining unit,
>why would they be concerned
>with building it back or
>limiting spike hunting? My family
>has hunted the Books for
>over 35 years, and have
>had 6 elk tags in
>the last 5 years. Each
>year has been a very
>noticeable decline in numbers and
>quality.


One More Sportsman that has seen the Effects first Hand!

Wish We Could get everybody to Band Together & Get Some of the BS shut down!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>>My honest opinion, I know they
>>aren't killing all the spikes,
>>still see plenty with the
>>cows during winter. To me
>>the problem lies in killing
>>too many cows. Killing spikes
>>puts less bulls on the
>>landscape so it's less competition
>>when they're mature and breeding
>>so there's less broken up
>>bulls and less bulls run
>>completely ragged from fighting. Let
>>him be tired from breeding
>>lol. Just need to make
>>sure there's enough bulls to
>>breed when the time is
>>right.
>>
>>Move the archery hunt back 2
>>weeks into pre rut and
>>rut. Lower success rates, give
>>them more of a chance.
>>Run muzz the same time
>>and give them a few
>>days to be elk then
>>rifle starts the following weekend.
>>Yup that's the deer hunt
>>opener but you'll have to
>>choose what is more important
>>to you that year...
>>
>>To me that solves most of
>>it.
>>
>>
>>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg

>
>
>Hey justr!
>
>I know you were out there
>a year or two ago!
>
>
>You're Sure gonna get an Awakening
>when you see what it's
>like now!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D


I was there last Thanksgiving weekend, will be again in a couple weeks. I know it's sad... but the dnr has been issuing a lot of cow tags also and that's where the problem is.


4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-18 AT 10:59AM (MST)[p]I just wish they would do a harvest survey just like they do for deer so we know and so they know.
There was only about 92 cow tags given out there that includes south of the books and the roadless area and the road area I don't know what the land owners get out there and yeah that can be a problem but there was a hell of lot more spikes killed out there than cows

Keep us posted and let us know how it is
 
>>>My honest opinion, I know they
>>>aren't killing all the spikes,
>>>still see plenty with the
>>>cows during winter. To me
>>>the problem lies in killing
>>>too many cows. Killing spikes
>>>puts less bulls on the
>>>landscape so it's less competition
>>>when they're mature and breeding
>>>so there's less broken up
>>>bulls and less bulls run
>>>completely ragged from fighting. Let
>>>him be tired from breeding
>>>lol. Just need to make
>>>sure there's enough bulls to
>>>breed when the time is
>>>right.
>>>
>>>Move the archery hunt back 2
>>>weeks into pre rut and
>>>rut. Lower success rates, give
>>>them more of a chance.
>>>Run muzz the same time
>>>and give them a few
>>>days to be elk then
>>>rifle starts the following weekend.
>>>Yup that's the deer hunt
>>>opener but you'll have to
>>>choose what is more important
>>>to you that year...
>>>
>>>To me that solves most of
>>>it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg

>>
>>
>>Hey justr!
>>
>>I know you were out there
>>a year or two ago!
>>
>>
>>You're Sure gonna get an Awakening
>>when you see what it's
>>like now!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I know so many people in
>>so many places
>>They make allot of money but
>>they got sad faces
>>
>>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
>
>
>I was there last Thanksgiving weekend,
>will be again in a
>couple weeks. I know it's
>sad... but the dnr has
>been issuing a lot of
>cow tags also and that's
>where the problem is.
>
>
>
>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg



So justr!

We need a Deer/Buck Report since You Spent a Day in the Book Cliffs!

Tell Me I'm Blind!

But I Don't Think so!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-18 AT 01:00PM (MST)[p]From 2011 to now that place has done a nose dive with elk... from 2006 to now on deer ? holy sh!t that unit is in serious trouble...


Edit: to add the Bookcliffs

Yes Slam there are more units as well
 
>From 2011 to now that place
>has done a nose dive
>with elk... from 2006 to
>now on deer ? holy
>sh!t that unit is in
>serious trouble...


It's not the only one hurting.....
 
>If Utah would put a mandatory
>harvest report to every LE
>Elk, deer, gneral elk, general
>spike or any big game
>animal, then and ONLY THEN,
>will we know that there
>were Exactly 355 spikes killed
>instead of between 300-400 spikes
>killed. And where were
>they harvested. And there
>were exactly 33% success rate
>on "X" unit for deer,
>or what ever it may
>be. It really isnt
>that hard. I did
>one for my Colorado deer
>hunt and had maybe 5
>simple questions that tool me
>maybe 1 minute tops to
>answer. We have the
>technology. Why not use
>it.
>
>I proposed this a few years
>ago at a RAC meeting
>and was told that its
>too hard since too many
>people dont have access to
>computers. And that there
>are too many old people
>not computer savvy.
> That was like 5-6
>years ago. Come on!
> They have to apply
>by computer, why not answer
>5 questions. And if
>Grandson Jonny wants to apply
>for grampa, he needs to
>answer his survey after the
>hunts. Kill a few
>birds with 1 stone if
>you know what I mean.
> And of the survey
>isnt filled out, they dont
>apply. Just like the
>LE hunts.

Big PLUS ONE.
We have the technology to MANAGE so why don't we?
Zeke
#livelikezac
 
slamdunk they haven't ever tried it any other way so they don't know if any other way will work you can still maintain the bull to cow ratio by doing it the way I described very easy you will be able to add tags to those hunts and even the rifle hunt because the success rate on that hunt will go down(It will help the points creep a little hell maybe a lot). So What's Another Reason for It?
 
>>>>My honest opinion, I know they
>>>>aren't killing all the spikes,
>>>>still see plenty with the
>>>>cows during winter. To me
>>>>the problem lies in killing
>>>>too many cows. Killing spikes
>>>>puts less bulls on the
>>>>landscape so it's less competition
>>>>when they're mature and breeding
>>>>so there's less broken up
>>>>bulls and less bulls run
>>>>completely ragged from fighting. Let
>>>>him be tired from breeding
>>>>lol. Just need to make
>>>>sure there's enough bulls to
>>>>breed when the time is
>>>>right.
>>>>
>>>>Move the archery hunt back 2
>>>>weeks into pre rut and
>>>>rut. Lower success rates, give
>>>>them more of a chance.
>>>>Run muzz the same time
>>>>and give them a few
>>>>days to be elk then
>>>>rifle starts the following weekend.
>>>>Yup that's the deer hunt
>>>>opener but you'll have to
>>>>choose what is more important
>>>>to you that year...
>>>>
>>>>To me that solves most of
>>>>it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg

>>>
>>>
>>>Hey justr!
>>>
>>>I know you were out there
>>>a year or two ago!
>>>
>>>
>>>You're Sure gonna get an Awakening
>>>when you see what it's
>>>like now!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I know so many people in
>>>so many places
>>>They make allot of money but
>>>they got sad faces
>>>
>>>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
>>
>>
>>I was there last Thanksgiving weekend,
>>will be again in a
>>couple weeks. I know it's
>>sad... but the dnr has
>>been issuing a lot of
>>cow tags also and that's
>>where the problem is.
>>
>>
>>
>>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg

>
>
>So justr!
>
>We need a Deer/Buck Report since
>You Spent a Day in
>the Book Cliffs!
>
>Tell Me I'm Blind!
>
>But I Don't Think so!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D


Lol I saw 1 buck I might consider shooting towards the end of a general season hunt.


4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
>>>>>My honest opinion, I know they
>>>>>aren't killing all the spikes,
>>>>>still see plenty with the
>>>>>cows during winter. To me
>>>>>the problem lies in killing
>>>>>too many cows. Killing spikes
>>>>>puts less bulls on the
>>>>>landscape so it's less competition
>>>>>when they're mature and breeding
>>>>>so there's less broken up
>>>>>bulls and less bulls run
>>>>>completely ragged from fighting. Let
>>>>>him be tired from breeding
>>>>>lol. Just need to make
>>>>>sure there's enough bulls to
>>>>>breed when the time is
>>>>>right.
>>>>>
>>>>>Move the archery hunt back 2
>>>>>weeks into pre rut and
>>>>>rut. Lower success rates, give
>>>>>them more of a chance.
>>>>>Run muzz the same time
>>>>>and give them a few
>>>>>days to be elk then
>>>>>rifle starts the following weekend.
>>>>>Yup that's the deer hunt
>>>>>opener but you'll have to
>>>>>choose what is more important
>>>>>to you that year...
>>>>>
>>>>>To me that solves most of
>>>>>it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hey justr!
>>>>
>>>>I know you were out there
>>>>a year or two ago!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You're Sure gonna get an Awakening
>>>>when you see what it's
>>>>like now!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I know so many people in
>>>>so many places
>>>>They make allot of money but
>>>>they got sad faces
>>>>
>>>>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
>>>
>>>
>>>I was there last Thanksgiving weekend,
>>>will be again in a
>>>couple weeks. I know it's
>>>sad... but the dnr has
>>>been issuing a lot of
>>>cow tags also and that's
>>>where the problem is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg

>>
>>
>>So justr!
>>
>>We need a Deer/Buck Report since
>>You Spent a Day in
>>the Book Cliffs!
>>
>>Tell Me I'm Blind!
>>
>>But I Don't Think so!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I know so many people in
>>so many places
>>They make allot of money but
>>they got sad faces
>>
>>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
>
>
>Lol I saw 1 buck I
>might consider shooting towards the
>end of a general season
>hunt.
>
>
>
>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg



I'll Place Money that says that Biggest Book Cliffs Buck You seen don't even hold a Candle to the Bucks You & Your Wife got this year!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I wont deny the book cliffs are an opportunity l.e unit for deer. but man I seen a couple of monster bucks out there this year.
 
>My honest opinion, I know they
>aren't killing all the spikes,
>still see plenty with the
>cows during winter. To me
>the problem lies in killing
>too many cows.

That is actually factual justr.
Their philosophy is that at least 10% of spikes survive the hunts which in turn carry over into branch antler bulls on on the LE units which no one harvest. These bulls continue on living to reach their mature ages and either get harvested or simply die of old age.

If 10 spikes survive out of 100 and the average harvest age class on bulls in the LE units is 7.5 years old, in theory we are adding 70 mature bulls in 7 years.
My number 100 is just hypothetical of course, just chose it as an easy example.

I saw a very large herd on the wasatch unit during the rifle deer (post rifle spike elk hunt hunt) that still had 9 spike bulls in it and at least 5 branch antlered bulls.

I personally believe we are allowing a much higher percentage of spikes to carry over than 10%.....which is a good thing IMO.
 
>I wont deny the book cliffs
>are an opportunity l.e unit
>for deer. but man I
>seen a couple of monster
>bucks out there this year.
>


But Then again!

You See Monsters everywhere you go!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>
>>Archery hunters and the Muzzleloader hunters
>>should be able to hunt
>>the rut and what it
>>your reasoning for why they
>>shouldn't have it????
>
>
>It is because the DWR has
>harvest rates they need to
>meet to maintain bull to
>cow ratios and the rifle
>hunters and rut hunt is
>the most effective way to
>accomplish that.


That's the dumbest argument I've ever heard! If you need to increase or meet harvest rates, then increase Archery tags until you have reached your "harvest rates". That increases opportunity and puts more hunters through the clogged up point system.
 
Wait... did me and slam just agree?? Lol... cut back cow tags and the herd will recover. I don't really buy that the range won't support more elk and deer.. but I'm not a cattleman so I'm not qualified to make that call I guess?

I was told flat out by a biologist I wont name that their ultimate goal is to return the bookcliffs to a general unit for deer so it will be used as an opportunity le unit for 10 or so years before it going back into the general pool. That was about 6 years ago.

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
>Wait... did me and slam just
>agree?? Lol... cut back cow
>tags and the herd will
>recover. I don't really buy
>that the range won't support
>more elk and deer.. but
>I'm not a cattleman so
>I'm not qualified to make
>that call I guess?
>
>I was told flat out by
>a biologist I wont name
>that their ultimate goal is
>to return the bookcliffs to
>a general unit for deer
>so it will be used
>as an opportunity le unit
>for 10 or so years
>before it going back into
>the general pool. That was
>about 6 years ago.
>
>
>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg



You Ain't Old enough justr!

But I remember when they Closed the Book Cliffs!

You wanna take a Guess of why they closed it?








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-18 AT 05:56AM (MST)[p]>>Wait... did me and slam just
>>agree?? Lol... cut back cow
>>tags and the herd will
>>recover. I don't really buy
>>that the range won't support
>>more elk and deer.. but
>>I'm not a cattleman so
>>I'm not qualified to make
>>that call I guess?
>>
>>I was told flat out by
>>a biologist I wont name
>>that their ultimate goal is
>>to return the bookcliffs to
>>a general unit for deer
>>so it will be used
>>as an opportunity le unit
>>for 10 or so years
>>before it going back into
>>the general pool. That was
>>about 6 years ago.
>>
>>
>>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg

>
>
> You Ain't Old enough justr!
>
>
>But I remember when they Closed
>the Book Cliffs!
>
>You wanna take a Guess of
>why they closed it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D


Lol I do remember when they closed the bookcliffs! My dad had an elk tag in 98 and it was awesome looking at all the tame giant bucks while we were elk hunting!

Couple years of decent deer hunting but it's been on a steep decline.

The Elk have been taking a beating in the recent years and it's showing also. But I don't think it's the spike hunt, I think it's the cow hunts... I don't mind taking a few, but not as many as they do...

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
Yep justr, I definitely agree with you on that one ?

As for closing the Books, yes I remember that one very well and they closed the Henry's at the same time.
I was on the Henry's the first year they took the antler point restriction off and it was a war zone! Non stop shooting every day all season long. There wasn't a camp on that entire range that hadn't filled there tags with every size of buck ever built from 200" bucks down to spikes.
They allowed that senseless mass extermination for 2-3 years on both units, then had an emergency shut down and blamed it on predators??
 
>Yep justr, I definitely agree with
>you on that one ?
>
>
>As for closing the Books, yes
>I remember that one very
>well and they closed the
>Henry's at the same time.
>
>I was on the Henry's the
>first year they took the
>antler point restriction off and
>it was a war zone!
>Non stop shooting every day
>all season long. There wasn't
>a camp on that entire
>range that hadn't filled there
>tags with every size of
>buck ever built from 200"
>bucks down to spikes.
>They allowed that senseless mass extermination
>for 2-3 years on both
>units, then had an emergency
>shut down and blamed it
>on predators??


It Was Predators PUNK!

The TARD Kind!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
The several things I see with spike hunting, IMO

1. The terrain and cover make a huge difference in hunting spikes. The Wasatch and Manti units are totally different terrain than the Book Cliffs. I think the Book Cliffs are an easier place for most to kill a spike.

2. Trophy Spike Hunters. You have a Spike with 30" horns and a 2 point on one side standing next to a 12" spike and the larger "Spike" gets shot.

3. So there are more spikes getting shot on the Book Cliffs per size of the herd and more spikes are being located and seen based on the terrain and then therefore more of the "Better Genetic Spikes" are getting shot. So a lot of the spikes that survive in theory are the weaker genetic bulls that make it to maturity.

This is my theory based on my experience from spending my whole life in the Book Cliffs. I did see the Book Cliffs getting Better and better from 2000 to 2012 and when the spike hunt hit 5 years it took a drastic drop in quality from what I saw. JMHO
 
>2. Trophy Spike Hunters. You have
>a Spike with 30" horns
>and a 2 point on
>one side standing next to
>a 12" spike and the
>larger "Spike" gets shot.
>
I highly doubt this scenario happens enough to even measure any amount of impact.
 
What does it matter which spike gets shot? They?re both yearlings. You know that genes aren't just in the seed, half come from the soil. Who?s to say the bred cow didn't originate from a 400 bull? Or a spike for that matter?
 
Yep cows are part of the genetics too, but wouldn't you say that the larger yearling spike is a better genetic bull for the future than the smaller... If a spike has 24" horns and a 2 point on one side, isn't it fair to say that he probably has better genetics
than the 8" spike that was born at the same time... I don't know you tell me. I feel that we are slowly weeding out the best genetics year in and year out with the Mature bulls and the spikes. I just know that I don't see as many higher scoring bulls on the book cliffs as I did 8 years ago and there has to be something that factors into that.
 
Someone smarter than me would have to answer exactly how genetics factor in. Here?s the thing Broadside, my dad was 6-5 and 250 pounds. My mother?s familt were mostly shorter people.I have four brothers all over 6? and 200 pounds, yet I'm 5-7 with my boots on. Just because one side of the gene pool is large, I can't think it necessarily guarantees anything.
 
You see it on High Fenced Deer Ranches all the time. They know the Buck from the time he is a yearling and what Antlers he produces that first year on whether they will cull him out or let him live to maturity.

You never here them saying "yeah he is a 8 point yearling but has bad genetics but this 3" yearling spike over here now he's something special" Ha Ha

You see this in animals all the time. Vet looks at a lab puppy and see how big his feet are and can give you a pretty good guess on how big of a Dog he will be. Dogs with bigger feet are usually bigger at maturity than the same dogs with smaller feet. Just an observation.

I'm just trying to figure out why the Book Cliffs have gone downhill more so than the Wasatch supposedly has. I don't think there just one factor as I stated earlier.
 
There has to be a way to thin out some bulls. They can't manage for genetics it's herd quality and the elk do the rest. The quickest way to lower herd numbers is to kill cows. The amount of cow tags they turn out is why the herd is the way it is.

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
Justr, I think you are right in a big way with the cows. I think we all need to recognize that there has to be some of everything to have a healthy herd and satisfy the hunting world.

I'm not very good at saying my points by typing but I try.

Anytime we target a certain item (Cows, Spikes, Mature Bulls) it fails. You can't just do away with all of 1 part of the puzzle.

There is a place for Cow Hunters, Spike Hunters and Trophy Hunters. but we tend to criticize and fight against those that we don't fit into.

It is Ok for a 2 point buck to be shot. Just not all of them. It is Ok for the Biggest Buck on the Mountain to get shot. Just not all of them. it is Ok to Harvest a Cow. Just not all of them. See my Point.

In this state we manage by Extremes and I don't think that's the best way to do it.
 
"There has to be a way to thin out some bulls. They can't manage for genetics it's herd quality and the elk do the rest. The quickest way to lower herd numbers is to kill cows. The amount of cow tags they turn out is why the herd is the way it is." justr_86

This is correct. All this talk about spikes is so off base, but this is the ticket right here. We are not growing frankenstein elk on a high fence ranch, we're managing wild game and we don't just pick and choose.

"I'm just trying to figure out why the Book Cliffs have gone downhill more so than the Wasatch supposedly has. I don't think there just one factor as I stated earlier." Broadside_Shot

You obviously do not remember the last 5 years of discussions about the Wasatch unit. There were some that declared it dead and that it might as well just be turned over to a general season bull unit. (Sound familiar?) Yet the reports are this was the best season on the Wasatch in years, and back to the glory years. What is the difference from 6-7 years ago? They are killing less cows. They gave out more bull tags the last few years than they ever have. They are still pounding the spikes from August to November. They are simply killing less cows than they did 6 years ago, and that means more elk. More elk means more bulls. More bulls mean older bulls as more bulls make it through each hunting season. Older bulls means bigger bulls.

We can argue about the genetics of one spike vs another all you want, but you're missing the point and simply not identifying the real issue. If you are not seeing as big of bulls on the Books as you're used to, it is not because of spike hunting.
 
I think the Wasatch is doing better for just that reason, because we haven't killed everything for some years. That is Great and we have had opportunity along the way. It's why you can look at the Wasatch Extended Area and there seems to be room for all. We just aren't killing everything.

The Book Cliffs and the Wasatch are 2 totally different areas but we are managing them the same. When you kill most of the spikes on a unit, it will suffer, FACT. When you kill most of the Cows on a unit, it will Suffer, FACT. Etc.

Does anyone remember why Jim Karpowitz introduced the Spike Hunt... it was so some bulls could survive and reach maturity. we were killing the 1 piece of the puzzle in abundance.

I remember reading about it when it happened and that is why he said they were doing it.

Now we are using the same model to thin the herd. Doesn't make sense to me. There has to be a Better Balance.
 
>We can argue about the genetics
>of one spike vs another
>all you want, but you're
>missing the point and simply
>not identifying the real issue.
>If you are not seeing
>as big of bulls on
>the Books as you're used
>to, it is not because
>of spike hunting.


I Respectfully Disagree. Killing a spike is one thing. Killing them all is another, and the Book Cliffs has a Very High Success rate for Spikes.
 
Vanilla There is only like 100 maybe 120 cow tags on the books there is a lot of elk out there but hardly any big bulls and last year harvest survey showed only 76 got killed so that's why I have a hard time Believe in it's a cow problem It's a spike problem.
 
sorry I wrote it wrong I was wanting to say that it's more of a spike problem than it is a cow problem killing cows are still a problem but I think the big issue is killing most of the spikes

But also hunting them during the RUT with are Most effective weapon is not helping are herds either
 
It's no secret we are skimming the cream off the top of the herd out there in the Books, that's very evident in the lower age class harvest data and the spikes get pounded pretty good also.
The 4-5 year old bulls are doing most of the breeding I would guess, but that doesn't mean a dang thing in reality.
It doesn't take a 380" bull to make another 380" future bull.
A younger raghorn bull and the right cow can produce a great future bull.
Genetics, healthy habitat and age are what produce good bulls.
Letting them get to at least 7 years old definitely helps, as long as all the other elements are there.
 
"Vanilla There is only like 100 maybe 120 cow tags on the books there is a lot of elk out there but hardly any big bulls and last year harvest survey showed only 76 got killed so that's why I have a hard time Believe in it's a cow problem It's a spike problem." elkslayer2015

I have readily admitted I have never stepped foot on the Book Cliffs unit, let alone hunted it. But data is important in these discussions, so I'll turn to the data.

Here are the number of bulls harvested on the Book Cliffs by year. These are LE bulls, so "big" bulls.
2009- 298
2010- 342
2011- 280
2012- 250
2013- 330
2014- 255
2015- 312
2016- 410


Here is the data for average age of bull killed on the LE tags.
Bitter Creek/South:
2009- 7.0
2010- 6.7
2011- 6.4
2012- 7.1
2013- 7.3
2014- 7.9
2015- 7.5
2016- 7.8

Little Creek:
2009- 7.9
2010- 6.8
2011- 6.6
2012- 7.1
2013- 7.3
2014- 7.9
2015- 7.5
2016- 7.3


Here are the spike numbers for 2016, the most recent data I can find.

Any Weapon:
Hunters afield- 813
Spikes killed- 245
Success rate- 30.1%

Muzzleloader:
Hunters afield- 55
Spikes killed- 4
Success rate- 7.2%

Another 24 bulls (spikes) were killed by archer hunters in 2016.

Lastly, the herd objective for the Book Cliffs is 7500, and the herd sits at about 5600. That should mean they are trying to increase the herd out there, not decrease it. But the age classification is above on Bitter Creek/South, so they increase bull tags.

I guess when I look at the raw data, the hunting on the Books was not bad in 2016 and before. Anyone that says otherwise, I can't believe. If you are having a good shot at killing a 7.5 year old bull, that is a good hunt. I can't see how spike hunting can cause a crash from 2016 to now. Those bulls wouldn't be old enough to factor into the equation, and the amount being killed just simply does not explain what people are claiming is a crash.

The "sky is falling" reports from this year might be 100% true. If so, it is not spike hunting that explains it. In my opinion...
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-18 AT 03:10PM (MST)[p]Interesting numbers for sure and if those are the numbers than that's what we have. I like Facts.

My family has never been asked if we filled our spike tag. Do they do this. I seemed to get called on every other species I hunt. Several times a year for deer If I planned to hunt the extended but have never been asked about spikes. has anyone else been called for this? I would think so because we have some numbers.

My immediate family has harvested 10 spikes in the last 4 years but never gave the division that info.

I ate my Multi-Season spike tag this year just because it felt like we were killing alot more plus I had other meat, But my nephew didn't
 
Not everyone is polled, obviously, which I think is a mistake. That's why I would strongly support a mandatory harvest report on EVERY big game tag issued in Utah. If you don't fill one out, you are not eligible the next year for ANY big game tag or points.

This would certainly be easier than having people make thousands and thousands of phone calls every year. And it would give us a way better picture of the harvest on general season animals than we are currently getting.
 
>Not everyone is polled, obviously, which
>I think is a mistake.
>That's why I would strongly
>support a mandatory harvest report
>on EVERY big game tag
>issued in Utah. If you
>don't fill one out, you
>are not eligible the next
>year for ANY big game
>tag or points.
>
>This would certainly be easier than
>having people make thousands and
>thousands of phone calls every
>year. And it would give
>us a way better picture
>of the harvest on general
>season animals than we are
>currently getting.

X2, this year is the first time I've been contacted by anyone frome the DWR about a general deer tag.

That should be mandatory for every tag...
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-18 AT 04:24PM (MST)[p]I don't know where you found that info but I found 2017 harvest report off the DWR website.

Archery - 16 harvested
Archery Roadless - 4 harvested

Early Rifle - 53 harvested
Late rifle - 22 harvested
Rifle roadless -15 harvested

Muzzleloader - 23 harvested
Muzzleloader roadless -5 harvested

Multi season -6 harvested
Multi season roadless -1 harvested

Now that is only 145 and I might be wrong but this is what is on DWR harvest reports and if your data is correct where screwed. This is LE big bull for the books
 
I guided a hunter out there last year on the "any weapon" hunt.
We hunted 5 days and covered a lot of ground. The elk were very active and bugling was pretty vigorous.
After looking about 30+ bulls over, we knew we were going to be hard pressed to find a 350" bull.
We had a 340ish bull "ratholed" in an area we hadn't seen any other hunters. He had 23 cows with him and it was very apparent that he was the bad boy on the block, so we decided to harvest him.
He ended up being 343" and the tooth data came back at 7.5 years old which was 1 year over their objective of 6.5 for the unit.
Although we had higher Hope's, we obviously did very well and beat the odds.
 
>And I really don't think anyone
>should be disappointed with a
>343 inch bull on the
>Books. That is a stud!
>

Thanks vanilla!
He definitely had good mass all the way through, we just had our hopes up for a relative of the "Skoronski" bull ?
 
I don't really think they care about harvest data for anything but age class. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. When they do their counts that's where tags #s are set. To me the counts are skewed and an average, not real numbers.

It's not rocket science really, if you want to grow the herd quit killing as many cows and try to educate people to shoot mature dry cows. If you want to shrink a herd kill more and any cow.

Don't quote me on this but I seem to remember being told by a biologist a bull can and very happily will breed up to 50 cows per mating season, so let him breed about 30. Have a few satellite bulls for coming years. But don't make them fight so hard for 5 cows....

We want to grow the herd so cut back cow tags. I say leave the spike/ opportunity hunt alone. Cut 10-15%of big bull tags and watch in the next 3-5 years it will be back and we can adjust again. Rifle needs to be moved out of the peak of the rut..

I understand there's areas where the elk numbers become a problem but that can be solved with smaller cow sub units. Maybe standby lists if there becomes a problem herd.

Cattleman say there's too many elk and deer. Dnr is stuck in the middle. I don't think they always make the right decision but I don't want their job of never being able to really make anyone happy...

Im not a spike hunter, when I go I chase elk on the any bull units. I have killed cows on the wasatch and the bookcliffs. Im building points for another le elk tag (didn't kill a bull because I was too picky on the last one). I've been on most sides of it and in the end what I really want is what's best for the elk herd as a whole.

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
>I don't really think they care
>about harvest data for anything
>but age class. At the
>end of the day it
>doesn't matter. When they do
>their counts that's where tags
>#s are set. To me
>the counts are skewed and
>an average, not real numbers.
>
>
>It's not rocket science really, if
>you want to grow the
>herd quit killing as many
>cows and try to educate
>people to shoot mature dry
>cows. If you want to
>shrink a herd kill more
>and any cow.
>
>Don't quote me on this but
>I seem to remember being
>told by a biologist a
>bull can and very happily
>will breed up to 50
>cows per mating season, so
>let him breed about 30.
>Have a few satellite bulls
>for coming years. But don't
>make them fight so hard
>for 5 cows....
>
>We want to grow the herd
>so cut back cow tags.
>I say leave the spike/
>opportunity hunt alone. Cut 10-15%of
>big bull tags and watch
>in the next 3-5 years
>it will be back and
>we can adjust again. Rifle
>needs to be moved out
>of the peak of the
>rut..
>
>I understand there's areas where the
>elk numbers become a problem
>but that can be solved
>with smaller cow sub units.
>Maybe standby lists if there
>becomes a problem herd.
>
>Cattleman say there's too many elk
>and deer. Dnr is stuck
>in the middle. I don't
>think they always make the
>right decision but I don't
>want their job of never
>being able to really make
>anyone happy...
>
>Im not a spike hunter, when
>I go I chase elk
>on the any bull units.
>I have killed cows on
>the wasatch and the bookcliffs.
>Im building points for another
>le elk tag (didn't kill
>a bull because I was
>too picky on the last
>one). I've been on most
>sides of it and in
>the end what I really
>want is what's best for
>the elk herd as a
>whole.
>
>
>
4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg



Bullseye!
 
I totally agree with you again justr, all except on one thing.

The Division doesn't really care if you, me or anyone else kill a 400" bull, that's not where the money comes from that funds this whole process.
They are managing for "opportunity" because the mass amounts of elk hunters (and deer hunters for that matter) are tickled pink to kill a "6 point" bull, even if its barely 260".
That was evident when they decided to lower the age class down to 6.5 on most of our units. (Remember when we were taking dozens of 400" bulls in the early 2000's?)
Correct me if and where I am wrong, but I believe only the Boulder and San Juan were left at 8.5 on age class harvest objectives.
The rest of the units are at the "whack 'em and stack 'em" status and the majority of the lucky tag owners are ecstatic about it.
 
So is the Boulder and San Juan still producing the same amount of 400" bulls as it was in the 2000's where they have kept the age class the same. I've never set foot on Either unit so I really don't know.
 
>So is the Boulder and San
>Juan still producing the same
>amount of 400" bulls as
>it was in the 2000's
>where they have kept the
>age class the same. I've
>never set foot on Either
>unit so I really don't
>know.


No They are Not on the SJ!

Same PISS POOR Management going on down their!

Shoot the Cows!

Shoot the Spikes!

That GAWD-DAMNED Type of Management in Time destroys what could of been!

I Hope You Boys that are Killing Cows in January & February Feel Good about Yourselves Pulling a half grown Calf out of the Cow & Killing it Too!

I Don't Claim to be a Farmer or a Rancher!

But I Am Smart enough to know in order for any kind of Animal must be on the Incline of Gaining Weight to be a Good Eating Animal!

This State could Care Less about anything but Money!

The General Bull Hunt up here you can Slap 2 Cow Tags on top of that!

SLAUGHTER!

SLAUGHTER!

Keep SLAUGHTERING!

It'll Get Worse!

Just Stick around!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>So is the Boulder and San
>Juan still producing the same
>amount of 400" bulls as
>it was in the 2000's
>where they have kept the
>age class the same. I've
>never set foot on Either
>unit so I really don't
>know.

I would have to say "No" as to the amount of 400" bulls off either of those units, but they are still producing one or two each year and are considered "premium units" by reputation and have the lowest draw odds in the state.
They kept those two units in a higher age class and lower tag numbers to keep the "trophy hunters" and Outfitters happy.
Beaver and Pahvant very well may be in the same category, I'd have to do some digging to very.
 
Check the Campfire PUNK!:D








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Elkassassin: If killing spikes is so bad and it destroys elk units then why is the Manti, Fishlake and Wasatch got so many mature bulls?

I know for a fact it was really tough to find a mature bull on the Manti during the late 1980 and early 1990, because I was a young man and spent alot of time scouting and hunting on the Manti during that era Then during the early 1990 they switched to spike only and have been hunting spikes every year sense and the Fishlake and Wasatch the same.

How did these units grow mature bulls, with the spike hunting going on these units?

There is a good number of Mature bulls on all these units. I know there will be some guys post all three of these units are destroyed but I beg to differ.

In my opinion it should be tough to go up there and hunt a mature bull it should not be like it was back in the early 2000 and any idiot could drive up on most of the units in Utah and kill a mature bull from the road.
If you hunt hard on any these three Manti,Fishlake and Wasatch units you will kill a good mature bull, if you can aim a rifle. I personally know of two bulls that came off of the Manti (south end) that scored over 400 and I know of a bull killed on the Beaver unit that scored over 400.
If a unit is carrying a heavy load of older class bulls and cows the unit will in the near future have a significant loss of mature bulls and herd size it is just a fact of life
I know verry little about the Book Cliffs, I have only been on them once for a few days and that was bear hunting.

I ask again if spike hunting is so bad why does it work on the three units that have more spike hunters on them than the rest of the state put together?
 
>Elkassassin: If killing spikes is so
>bad and it destroys elk
>units then why is the
>Manti, Fishlake and Wasatch got
>so many mature bulls?
>
>I know for a fact it
>was really tough to find
>a mature bull on the
>Manti during the late 1980
>and early 1990, because I
>was a young man and
>spent alot of time scouting
>and hunting on the Manti
>during that era Then during
>the early 1990 they switched
>to spike only and have
>been hunting spikes every year
>sense and the Fishlake and
>Wasatch the same.
>
>How did these units grow mature
>bulls, with the spike hunting
>going on these units?
>
>There is a good number of
>Mature bulls on all these
>units. I know there will
>be some guys post all
>three of these units are
>destroyed but I beg to
>differ.
>
>In my opinion it should be
>tough to go up there
>and hunt a mature bull
>it should not be like
>it was back in the
>early 2000 and any idiot
>could drive up on most
>of the units in Utah
>and kill a mature bull
>from the road.
>If you hunt hard on any
>these three Manti,Fishlake and Wasatch
>units you will kill a
>good mature bull, if you
>can aim a rifle. I
>personally know of two bulls
>that came off of the
>Manti (south end) that scored
>over 400 and I know
>of a bull killed on
>the Beaver unit that scored
>over 400.
>If a unit is carrying a
>heavy load of older class
>bulls and cows the unit
>will in the near future
>have a significant loss of
>mature bulls and herd size
>it is just a fact
>of life
>I know verry little about the
>Book Cliffs, I have only
>been on them once for
>a few days and that
>was bear hunting.
>
>I ask again if spike hunting
>is so bad why does
>it work on the three
>units that have more spike
>hunters on them than the
>rest of the state
>put together?

Well notdon!

Check the Unit out for yourself before comparing it to other Units!

You may not wanna believe what some Hunters are telling you but you might wanna Listen!

Like justr says:

It Ain't JUST the Spike Hunting!

The COW KILLIN going on for years has added to what you're seeing today as Well!

Over Hunting of the Big Bulls hasn't Helped Neither!

You ever Heard of Over Hunting a Unit?

Hunters have seen this coming!

You Telling Me the DWR can't see it as well?











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I am not question if the Book Cliffs unit is in bad shape I believe you and the others that have been out there I am only pointing out the killing of spikes is not the main problem. The Books may need to he shut down for a couple of years but you also got to realize the DWR can not do anything about the Rez or Colorado they both affect the Books.
 
>I am not question if the
>Book Cliffs unit is in
>bad shape I believe you
>and the others that have
>been out there I am
>only pointing out the killing
>of spikes is not the
>main problem. The Books may
>need to he shut down
>for a couple of years
>but you also got to
>realize the DWR can not
>do anything about the Rez
>or Colorado they both affect
>the Books.

And The REZ was Smart enough to Cut Way Back on Tags on their Side!

There's No Sense in Shifting the Blame!

So?

We Manage Units So Poorly it gets Bad Enough the Unit/Units have to Be Closed?

That's Total BS Right there!

You Mean to tell Me Sportsmen can see what's Happening but the People Managing Game can't see it?

Closing a Unit only Shifts More People to other Units not doing so Well when Tags are Not Cut!

God Forbid we Cut any Tags from the Whining Opportunists!

Not Harpin on you notdon!

But I Have been around long enough to see Units Shot clear out & They had to be Closed due to PISS POOR Management!

We Don't Have Management better than that?









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I am not shifting the blame. I meant shut down the spike hunting and they probably should only release cow tags for depredation only. But spike hunting is not the reason it got so bad I will agree the DWR needs to address the issue.
I am only debating the spike hunting issue not debating if there is a problem or debating if the DWR has not made the right decisions.
The only reason I replied to this thread because I do support the spike hunting and the hunters who want to participate in the spike hunts. Personally I have not hunted rifle spike sense the late 1990 and have not hunted archery spike for 10 years it is not my thing.
 
>Spike hunting isn't what's killing it.

I really believe that it is serious part of it.

When you over harvest a certain part of the puzzle then that will reflect in the next several years. The DWR knows this and that is why they target cows and spikes. its the fastest way to slow down the growth of the herd. plain and simple.

I think the problem is over harvest. I think that's why you can look at two different units with the same management and one area works better than the other. There is an over-harvest of something in the Book Cliffs.

For whatever reason more cows and spikes are surviving better on the Wasatch and Manti Units vs the Book Cliffs. Whatever that may be. Terrain, Private Lands or whatever. That management works better there than somewhere else.

You saw the Book Cliffs deer take some major hits during after the 5 year 3 point or better trial. For 5 years it was unlimited pressure on a buck 3 point or bigger. The first 2 to 3 years produced some really nice bucks but by the end of the 5 year trial there just wasn't the same results.

Then they opened up to any buck for 2 years and almost all the bucks were killed. So we took the major majority of the top end bucks for 5 years and then for 2 years we took the major majority of what was left.

The Division had no choice but to close the area for 2 years. I drew an archery tag the first year they reopened it and it was an absolute amazing deer hunt with the amount of buck that were there.

There is a general season Bighorn Sheep tag in Montana that people can buy over the counter. Why can they offer this but not offer it on the Nine Mile Range Creek unit here in Utah. Because of harvest and what ever factors play to keep the area from being over harvested.

You just can't kill all the cows, you just can kill all the spikes, you just can't kill all the big bulls and expect it to grow. The DWR knows this and that is why they do the extremes. its the fastest way to slow it down or back slide.
 
Broadside: Why would the DWR want to slow down production?
I am not question you on your theory I am really wondering why.
I will agree that if a herd is struggling bad enough then hunting spikes and cows is a bad thing. If you need to flood the field you do not only open the dam part way. But if a herd is healthy most units can afford spike hunting.
Like I said I do not hunt spikes and I have never put in for a cow tag not my thing but i have a brother that hunts spike every year and enjoys it and he is very successful and I appreciate the meat he shares with me.
 
Well said.

Sometimes folks need to put there data aside and listen to experience. I'm an engineer by trade so I appreciate data... but I also appreciate real life experience.

I have been on 6 hunts with folks down there in the last 8 years. I spend a lot of time in the books. Only guy I know on here is elkasdissin. He also spends a lot of time in books. We both know a lot of people that hunted books.

Experience of the sharp decline in elk numbers, lack of bulls has been steep the past 7 or so years.

I don't know when spike hunting started honestly for sure in books. But seems like I remember seeing them in bout 2010.

Unless I'm wrong, the people defending the spike hunts out there are people that don't go down there much.
 
I wonder that myself every year. When we are under objective on some units they still issue the same or more cow tags. I never understood it.

I have even asked them in RAC Meetings before and the answer I have been given is that the best way to manage numbers is by cow harvest.

So my rebuttal was that we are wanting to grow the herd why are we still killing things off. Never given a good answer.

So I assumed it came down to money over management. I used to serve on the Utah Bowmen's Association as Vice President of Bowhunting. So I have had alot of personal meetings with the previous big game coordinators.

There were just things I couldn't wrap my head around and I have always tried to figure it out with logic. So I am still trying to give the benefit of the doubt to biologist but I don't see there theories working some of the time.
 
As you can read in my previous post. I really want to please or try to please all ends of hunting. I want a future for hunting. I too am an Civil Engineer Technician by profession so I may think a little to calculated, HA.

I had a really nice hunt for deer this year on the Book Cliffs with my daughter for the first time in some years. I did see what appeared to be more young and promising bucks. They were maybe 2 and half years old so not considered a trophy by most standard but they did seem to have 4 points on both sides that looked like they might have some good genes. Really just speculated and comparing from years past. so we passed on those.

If I am being honest, I did feel that the hunt was less crowded than before but tags have been reduced several times over the last 5 years. It was my daughter first deer and she did a fantastic job on what looks to be a buck at about 8.5 years old but he was only a 3 x 4 with they 4 point side a crabby front fork on one side.

She was ecstatic with him and he is a beautiful buck. 26" wide Heavy and the Best cape you will ever see. We talked about management and if she was willing to shoot any buck that we just as well target one that appears to be mature with lesser genetics. Most trophy hunter would have passed him and that's fine. and he would have kept breeding.

We did the same with my son-in-law, her husband. He just started hunting when he married my daughter and got lucky and drew a Book Cliff Archery deet tag for his first ever tag. He also was willing to shoot any deer but we talked management and he got a wonderful 3 X 4 that was aged at 6.5 years old.

That being said the Archery and Rifle Limited entry elk hunts in the Book Cliffs were as dismal as I had ever seen in my life. very very different that any other year that I have experienced.
 
Yup. I was also on a deer hunt down there. I saw exactly what you describe. Lots of nice 3 ish year old bucks. Our camp came home with about a 165. Biggest we saw. Felt lucky. End the day had a lot of fun.

Elk on the other hand is sad. You could always have opportunity at a 350 bull down there 7-8 years ago. Past couple years the average is 275 or less in my opinion. Hell this year it was tough to find a 6 point.

I probably looked at 25 bulls coming out this year harvested. Biggest I saw was 300. The rest were rags and 260 inch 6s. I realize that's not all of the elk that came out. But if I was part of main stream media polls on Hillary Clinton?s approval I'd be right on the money with this sample of data. Hahaha.

I guess to me, put data, objectives aside. It's simple. You kill 100s of spikes and cows in a unit.... the quality and quantity goes down.

Personally I don't buy their aging for one minute either. 3 years ago my wife killed a buck down there. Maybe 160. Young, in his prime buck. They came back saying the buck was 10 years old. I don't buy that for one second.

So if age objective is their goal, they over shot it by a mile. For you, my engineering friend, they didn't incorporate a derivative in their calculation.... haha
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-18 AT 12:32PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-18 AT 12:28?PM (MST)

Vanilla thanks for the link

so look at this

2009-298
2010-342
2011-280
2012-250
2013-330
2014-255
2015-312
2016-410

so your right about the numbers but you miss read the top of it this is total bulls killed out there It's not just LE big bulls


In 2016
There was 1158 total bull elk hunters that includes spike hunter and LE big bull hunters

There was 245 spikes Harvested

There was 137 LE big bulls harvested

There was 117 Antlerless Harvested

Now lets go back to 2009 because I couldn't find a spike hunt in 2008

There was 600 total bull elk hunters that included spike hunters and LE big bull hunters

There was 111 spikes harvested

There was 165 LE big bull harvested

there was 95 Antlerless harvested




Now go to 2008 no spike hunt

218 total LE bull elk hunters

177 LE big bull elk harvested

128 Antlerless harvested

spikes Zero

Also I did find out That they only call 25% of the general season tag holders to get there data that includes spike hunter so those number very easily be way low I guarantee the numbers are a lot higher for spikes that where killed so I wish they would do a 100% survey on all are LE units for spikes so we can get better data.
 

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