Whats up? Utah

[Trammer]

Am I alone in thinking its about time we got #1 Greenscores of ALL the rams taken in 2014 #2 COMPLETE Sheep survey data from all the surveys taken in 2014 and #3 PROPOSED sheep tag numbers for every unit for 2015???...seems to me that the Public owns that information and could use it NOW!!!..before we apply for the draws.

 

[treedagain]

Sounds reasonable to me. Every year i have to request and go thru the bs to get them. BUT...certain ex biologists and those with connections get the full package of scores..kill locations....fly count data...etc. not a level playing field for all involved.



How to start an argument online:
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[bandedbigsixpoints]

100% agree!! Moose too!

 

[Trammer]

treedagain, Sometimes I think thats why they do this crap. For example if the Lockhart Unit has only one tag for the last few years. People with max or close to max points will have migrated away from that unit. So then a DWR Bioligist over the unit with say 16 points can change the tag numbers to 2, making one tag available to whoever the max group is and apply with his 16 points, knowing that applicants with more points than him no longer apply in that unit and PRESTO he is the only applicant with 16 points and draws the tag. The DWR Biologists can make it so they draw their own sheep tags 15 years sooner than they would without the inside information. Also everyone at the DWR has access to the surveys complete with GPS coordinates and Ram age classifications. So when the DWR guys draw their tags they get to know exactly where all the sheep were sighted 6 months earlier and more importantly where all the Big Ones were sighted. And, the DWR guys regularly distribute the good information the their family and friends including their friends in the Outfitting business and then they deny us the information. And like you said they can go to the file and find out exactly where everyone took their rams and on what dates.When drawing a tag the DWR guys can go to the draw list and call and ask questions of every hunter that has ever hunted their unit. You and Me cant. Oh, and dont forget that they can market their hunts (many of them have started Outfitting Business) to the people who draw tags while all the honest Outfitters cannot.What other reason would DWR have to privatize the information? Anyway you look at it the honest sportman gets screwed...I guess it pay to be part of the Ruling Class.

 

[tallbuck1]

I think this topic needs to be brought up at some RAC's and the WB meeting for big game. I also think that this needs to be brought up again and again to the director and let him know we are NOT happy with the results being posted for the general public sooner than they are.

They have all the data collected, why do they withhold it for so long? It is bull crap to me!


Tallbuck1

 

[Zeke]

It looks like we all agree!

This info should be made available for ALL and should be available BEFORE the application deadline.

I'm perplexed that Game agencies require us to make application before they will disclose current-year tag numbers, game counts, and in most cases, Past-year historical success data.

I like early application periods and early drawings but I cannot make an informed choice without some data!

Zeke

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

Trammer, I would agree that any info the government collects about sheep ought to be made public.
But I don't have to agree... do I ? Isn't that a law already?
Freedom of information act or something like that?

I see your point though. You are wanting the info BEFORE the application period opens.

I really want the upcoming years tag numbers available.

Survey data and green scores would be an interesting thing to look at, but I don't care to see them before the draw application period.

I would like to see ALL DATA related to sheep and other game made more available.
As I understand it, law requires that information be given, IF REQUESTED.

Thats the problem. I don't know what they have done, so I don't know what to request.

If it was all on the DWR web page, it would make it a lot easier to do some research.
Proposed actions, past actions, transplant stats, all of it.

 

[treedagain]

I have to fight with them every year to get info. funny thing is when I drew my tag an ex biologist turned outfitter flat out told me in his speech to get my biz he had ALL the info the public could not see. he was also the ONLY guide who did not talk sheep to me. just wanted a check in the mail.

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[Trammer]

Jim Karpowitz carrys most of the blame for this outrageous situation we have here in Utah. Twenty some years ago when I drew my first sheep tag Jim told me that sheep surveys were not released to the public and then went on to refer me to Elvin Hawkins of Spot Country Outfitters. When I called Elvin he said if I booked a hunt with him he would have the state Biologist (and Jims friend and coworker) over my sheep unit (Derris Jones) be my sheep guide...30 minutes after meeting with Jim, I met with another private sector Outfitter who showed me and made me a copy of all of the sheep surveys ever conducted in my unit!..He was a member of the public and told me he got the surveys from a friend at the Price DWR...Jim, later in his career as DWR Director went on to privatize every imaginable piece of information that could be helpful to someone who drew any limited entry permit.

Thanx to Jim Karpowitz sportmen in Utah are no longer able to #1 find the names of and contact past permit holders. #2 have access to current survey data. #3 ever have access to age class in surveys. #4 have access to kill dates. #5 have access to sheep sighting data reported by permit holders #6 have access to proposed tag numbers. #7 have access to Green scores when they are most relevant #8 contact other current permit holders (you may want to work together)...if you feel pretty lonely and helpless after you draw a sheep tag it because you are.Jim liked it that way... for you.

Conversely, Jim waltzed in and whacked for himself the biggest ram that Derris had seen a few months earlier; during the Potash sheep survey.

Worst of all is the plummet, that has occurred, in the size and age of rams harvested since all the information has been withheld from sheep hunters.Hunters just shoot what they can find. Sheep and Sheep hunters are both suffering from the unintended consequences of the withholding of information from the people who own it...

 

[gznokes]

I've wondered about this before myself. It is strange because I read in the newspaper how reporters are able to get Kyle Whittingham's emails to Chris Hill, yet we can't get this information? I admittedly have not tried. Have any of you tried a freedom of information request?

http://www.nfoic.org/utah-sample-foia-request

 

[treedagain]

By law they need to resolve the request in a certain amount of time. But in my case they have not.

 

[Trammer]

sorry, I missed 9 and 10 in my list: #9 have access to guzzler locations. #10 have the ability to hire whoever you want as a guide.

To answer your question I dont think a freedom of information act request gets much more than a laugh from Utah DWR. I understand that is because Jim Karpowitz lobbied the Utah Legislature (using the publics money) to privatize certain information. So as I understand it some things were made private by the Legislature at Jims request and other things were made private as official policy of the Division of Wildlife Resources at Jims request. I do know one thing for sure and that is statistically when information was withheld from sheep hunters is when Utahs sheep program began its spiral down. There is a correlation between limiting information to sheep hunters and the age and size of what they harvest. I submit that a well informed sheep hunter is a good sheep hunter and good sheep hunters kill big old rams and taking the big old rams is what is good for the sheep herd.

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

Trammer, let me first say that I honestly think highly of you.
I really do. It seems like your thoughts are usually aligned with my opinions, and your posts are not full of ridiculous rants, intended to start an argument.

I believe you are concerned about the correct issues.

I have not requested any of this info you are talking about.

I believe that if you are correct and this info is not available to you, upon request, you have a legitimate argument. One that might need to be taken up legally.
You might consult a lawyer to find out if the citizens of Utah are being treated unjustly.

I do wonder though. You are a sheep hunter. I find it hard to believe that with the time you spend out in the field that you wind need this info.
I personally believe that you want this info just to satisfy your passion.
That is fantastic.
But, I doubt you need it to kill, or find good sheep.

I know that if my son draws his sheep tag this year, there are only about 3 shooter rams on the entire unit we will be hunting.
Like yourself, I ave spent enough time out there that I know whats on the unit.
And I have a pretty good idea of where to find it.
I just need the tag.

I wonder if the reason the state shoots small rams is simply a lack of effort.
Guys spend a lifetime scouting deer, and elk. But spend no time getting to know the sheep unit they alloy for until the year the finally draw the tag.
Then there is a panic, they don't know where to go, they don't know how to judge sheep. The just shoot the first ok ram they see and call it good.

I believe that is a bigger part of the problem than the lack of given info.

If what you want is for the overall herd to improve, by harvesting only mature rams, shouldn't we have a 3/4 curl rule?

I praise you for wanting to help other sheep hunters have better success and shoot better rams.
Thats admirable.

Most of the sheep hunters I have met, they don't care. They never really tried.
Lots of lazy sheep hunters is what I have encountered.
Good sheep are there, they just take the quick easy one.

I doubt any added info would help these folks.

It may help some. I bet you have to change the way we hunt sheep to make the difference.
Thats why guys who care call you.
You have put the time in and made your services worth acquiring.

On the point of giving out peoples info.
I have to call it there. I would not care if it was me.
But lots of folks won't want their info out there, getting called up by strangers, asking for help.
Some people are just like that, and its their right.

I would favor an option, after you draw your sheep tag, if you would like your info to be made available, you have that option, if you just want to be done with it and move on, thats your right.
But it should be an option.

I like the guzzler location idea. No reason that should not be made public info.

I am also laughing about #10. You got some deep seeded issues there my friend.
I wish I could help you with that one, I hope its not as bad as you feel it is.
It would be unfortunate if true.

I tell you what, I will try it. Lets do a little experiment and see what info I can get and what I cant.
Maybe I will end up joining you in fighting the issue.

 

[ramsniper]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-15 AT 00:34AM (MST)[p]Brad brings up some really good points here. These things should matter to anyone and everyone who's ever spent a dime on Utah's only state sponsored lottery. We should be able to know our odds at any tag BEFORE buying a ticket. Period. Anything less is unacceptable. Other states can do it, why can't Utah?
Horns>antlers

 

[Trammer]

BIGHORNtracks, the 3/4 curl rule was rightfully done away with about 25 years ago. Reason being is that is was causing poaching: after inspecting their harvest on the ground, sheep hunters who had just taken an illegal ram were simply kicking the ram over the hill and shooting a second ram that was 3/4 curl. Also, many desert rams have a pigtail horn configuration and dont curl at all or even worse the best, old busted off broomed rams couldnt be legally taken because they had broomed to less than a 3/4 curl

Not only should there not be a curl requirement for rams, there shouldnt be a requirement to take a ram at all. The tag should say ANY SHEEP. With ANY SHEEP these guys who accidentally shoot ewes can tag and take home their ewe as well. Rather than kicking the ewe over the hill and then shooting a ram.

As far as the right to not be called. It sounds nice and reasonable but gives rise to a lot of unintended consequences.For one, it is impossible.How is the state even able to issue tags if who drew the tags is unknown?

In Utah what has happened is there is a privileged class of people who have essentially been given access to the classified information in the draw list. Many of these people who have access to the draw list are also in the guiding or outfitting business. So it is customary for DWR agents who have access to the draw list to market their hunts or provide the information to their friends in the outfitting business to market their hunts and gain an unfair competitive advantage on all the other unconnected outfitters and guides.

So, because of the duality of the enforcement issues; that this provision can easily be enforced against the public, by not releasing the information but, is essentially unenforceable against DWR agents or their friends.This is reason enough to do away with this failed policy or practice.Plus when you look at what other states do, like your state of Nevada. They release the information.That is what honest transparent government does. Additionally, dont I have a right as a sheep tag holder to be able to contact past sheep tag holders from my unit? Plus, what about when people are buying Conservation sheep tags from private organizations? In Utah, again what happens is the conservation permit program itself violates the DWR privacy policy. For example, when someone buys a sheep tag at a banquet. They disclose who they are to private (not DWR agents) people who are part of the conservation organization when bidding on or paying for the tag.The bottom line is that all of the unintended consequences of privatizing the draw list are worse than a lack of privacy to the few people who care about it.

Item #10 basically, government involvement and control in the guiding and outfitting business is the single worst thing that has happened to the North American Sportsman and North American Wildlife. Government sticking its nose in and controlling, manipulating and gerrymandering in an industry that should be unregulated has not only ruined Sheep Hunting in North America at has ruined all hunting in North America. Few people would argue that what is now needed to be a Sheep Hunter in North America is no longer skill and toughness it is money. How many poor grand-slammers do you know? Average people are mostly excluded from North American sheep hunting due to a lack of money. Why are costs so high?

Government control is the answer. Little sheep hunting monopoly's in the North Have made sheep hunts 40k. What would happen to Sheep hunt prices if hunters were allowed the freedom to hire whoever they wanted to guide them to say a Stone Sheep? What if people could get a Stone Sheep Tag in a fair fashion and then go hunt it themselves or hire whoever they wanted to help them....In Utah the relatively new Guides and Outfitters Law has done little more than, reduce the number of qualified guides and Outfitters and raised the price of guide service. And BIGHORNtracks isnt that what you really need is a government agency to decide for you, who you can hire to help you on your hunt? Is that what we all really need is a Hunting Nanny?

 

[Trammer]

I just noticed Nevada published all of their harvest data exactly 28 days after the end of the General Sheep season and the data is complete. So if Utah did likewise we would have gotten Desert Info by the first week in December and Rockys by Christmas. The People in SLC havent even got the 2013 information on Ram Harvest; it is full of errors and only about 75% complete and was not posted till August.I give Utah DWR 1 out of 5 stars.

 

[TMas]

I was wondering this recently too. While researching the Mountain Goat management I was able to find average age of harvested Billy, why won't they even give us age for Sheep? I can see not giving out names of previous tagholders, I can even see not giving out harvest locations and date, but they should really give us green scores or at least the ages.

 

[340Wby]

Interesting thread. I agree with most of what has been stated. I like Zeke have been wondering for quite some time why in the world we are putting in for tags when we don't even know how many tags are available? Recommendation: Hold the BBOIL and antlerless draw in June 1-30 with results available by the 15th of July.

As far as guzzler locations, sheep surveys, harvest information etc, I believe that the pubic should have access to that information. But any information that is to be provided must be timely, no excuse for 2013 data to not be published. I mean my goodness if we don't report our harvest by the end of the season what happens??? Recommendation: Place the sheep survey's, guzzler locations and non-harvest information on the DWR website within 60 days of survey, etc. Place all harvest data within 60 days of season end on the DWR website.

Does any of this sound unreasonable? I don't think so but I would be interested in hearing opinions to the contrary.

340Wby