which gun do you recommend?

[GoBigorGohome]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-12 AT 09:03AM (MST)[p]Ill be taking my two boys(9&11 yrs old) to their hunter safety class this coming weekend. I have confident that they will pass the course.
If, they pass ill be putting in for their first big game draw this year. now the hard part, which gun do you recommend for dear and elk? i know there was a big debate on .243 being an elk rifle. My 11 yr old is a big kid and i know i have a .270 ready for him. my 9 yr old is small 4'9'' 65lbs kid. what gun would you recommend for my son for the small frame he has. any suggestions? feel free to give suggestion!

 

[mossback50cal]

There are a lot of guns you can look into. Maybe a 7mm-08, as it does not have too much kick, and does have the knock down power for an elk. Whatever gun that he can shoot comfortably, that is what I would go with. Shot placement matters above all.

 

[1FastGambler]

Tikka T3 hunter in .270wsm, then put a muzzle brake on it.

I really like the brakes that score high gunsmithing in Albuquerque makes and installs. Priced right too.

 

[habitat]

My daughter started shooting my old style Rem 700 in 7mag when she was 13.She might have weighed 70lbs.The biggest thing I found was by putting a SIMS recoils pad on it she didn't mind it at all and now she says it's her rifle

 

[ixsolracxi]

my 10 year old daughter passed hunter safety last month and i was in the same situation as you are...after reading many threads on this issue i went with the 7mm-08...i felt it was the best choice based on what i read (current threads and those in archive)...it seems like many people buy this rifle for their children and many women shoot it also...they have a very basic model at sportsmans for $420 and a weatherby for $480 (the cheaper of two you need to cycle the rounds through the chamber to unload it and i do not like that, whereas, the weatherby you unload from below)...i was in Phoenix a few weeks ago and picked up a browning a-bolt for $420 (reg price was $700)...i went with this round because it was good for bull elk down to deer and speedgoats and won't knock the crap out of her...heck, i will also use it if i hunt anything with a rifle...good luck with your shopping...

 

[GoBigorGohome]

Thanks for all the comments...ill look into the 7mm-08. i think that gun will fit him right.

 

[CompassWestOutfitters]

No 243!!

270 and 7mm08 and 308 are all the best kid guns you can get. I just got my son (8 in april) a 308 ruger m77 youth, its a tack driver and he shoots it just fine on sticks from sitting and standing. Really a little heavy for him to carry but train them to shoot on sticks and they can grow into the gun!!! On the 308 i went to a little lighter load (160gr VS 180gr) and it really helped with the kick, he is NOT scared of the kick at all!

my .02


www.200inches.com

 

[GoBigorGohome]

What's the lightest loads for a 308. I think I might just get that type of the caliber. Are 7mm-08 a commom round to find or do I have to relaod..?

 

[greatwestern]

Seems like we just had this conversation not too long ago...I know Tayhot had a thread, can't remember title. Poke around in the archives

The .308 is loaded to all kinds of specs. Hornady loads a Lite round with a 125gr SST, which would make a great 'starter round'...don't know if Remington still loads their 'managed recoil' reduced loads, and can't remember if that series included the 308.

The .308 is a great choice for a youth caliber, very versatile. You can also find hammer factory loads for larger animals like elk and oryx (such as Federal's HE Trophy Bonded 165gr, Hornady's Superformance in a 165gr GMX or Interbond, or Nosler Custom shooting the Partition or Accubond)

The 7-08 is a .308 case necked down to shoot a 7mm bullet. It is a great round as well, but really not much different than its parent in performance (shooting similar loads), and doesn't have nearly the variety of available factory ammo as the 308. 308 rounds can also be found virtually anywhere, while its little brother can be a bit more difficult to find.

Good Luck!

 

[GoBigorGohome]

greatwestern- thanks for the input. i think i will have to look at both caliber at little better to see what suit him best. i know he is a small lil guy but i think he can take the recoil of a 308 and 7mm-08. I also have to see what youth model or stock will be better. Might get both my boys different guns for them to grow into.

 

[ElkSniper]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-12 AT 07:40PM (MST)[p]I would recomend the 308 just because it is a round with a lower recoil and still has the knock down power of a 30 cal. 308s are just a very good round for everyone to have. Even when they out grow the rifle and go into bigger calibers it is always a great deer rifle.

 

[stinkystomper]

460 weatherby magnum.

 

[GoBigorGohome]

c'mon stinky! my son couldnt handle that....unless i teach how to shot long range! lol

 

[NMPaul]

Shooting off of sticks (bogpod) is a great idea for kids. They pick things up quickly when they are young.
Standing like that really helps with the recoil.

Keep in mind, the weight of the rifle has a lot to do with recoil. A real light rifle will kick like a mule. You can always carry the rifle for them if they need the help. No laws against it.
Later when they get older they can carry your gun for you.

If the gun is for elk no good reason to go smaller than a 7mm08 and as elk sniper said a 308 is a good choice as well.
150 grain bullet in a 8lb gun is very manageable for a kid with factory loads.

 

[GoBigorGohome]

Thanks NMPaul! Im trying to get a head up on which caliber will suit him best.

 

[junior]

+1 308 Easy ammo to find to usually.

 

[WapitiBob]

I bought a 7mm-08 for my daughter. A .308 will work as well and "reduced recoil" ammo is available for that to get them started.
Spend money on a good scope that won't shake loose and toss the gun in a sled when at the range.
The Nikon 3-9 with the drop comp reticle works great and you can go online to Nikon and enter your load data and get the correct drops for your load.

 

[GoBigorGohome]

Thanks for your input wapitiBob!

 

[wallhanger]

Fun topic, and lots of good advice here. I was in your boat a few years back, and ended up with a Remington Model 7 youth model in .243. My son is 16 now and still wants to shoot that one when we head to the woods. Fit is very important in the recoil factor too, so keep that in mind when you're shopping around. And I totally agree with whomever suggested a simms recoil pad- they work wonders. While we hunt mostly deer, which is why we went .243 (which I'm not sure can be beat for dropping deer in their tracks) I agree with the other suggestions of 7mm-08 or .308 since you'll also be using it for elk.

That's a fun dilemma you're trying to solve, and if I had it to do over, I'd probably go with a 7mm-08.

Good luck,

WH

 

[GoBigorGohome]

Thanks wallhanger! I would have went with a .243 to as well. No shots will be over 150 yards. The place im planning to apply hunts requires a minimal caliber is a .243. But im more focused on the 7mm-08

 

[ixsolracxi]

My options were a .243 or the 7mm-08 and i went with the latter in the end...i also was thinking of .270 or 30-06 with the reduced recoil loads but after a lot of thought went with the 7mm-08 based on the fact it could do anything we needed and won't cause my little girl to get gun shy or fear the recoil...i also don't anticipate long shots for elk as i will call for her and get her a close shot (hopefully)...let us know what you finally decide...this has been an interesting thread...have you read any other threads like in the gun forum?

 

[GoBigorGohome]

ixsolracxi-Yes i have read other post concerning the right caliber for a youth. I also post the same topic under the Gun forum and their recommendation was either a 7mm-08 or .308. Im more looking into the 7mm-08.I personally think that the .308 is little too bog for my little boy,even with the light loads i think the recoil will be a factor in that caliber.
It will depend this weekend if they pass their hunter safety course. My oldest son (11) is taking it for the 2nd time since he failed the gun handlind test..he kept putting his trigger finger inside the trigger gaurd. lol. My second son (9) its his first time. i hope both will do good and pass.

 

[greatwestern]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-12 AT 11:06PM (MST)[p]Recoil between the .308 and the 7 shooting similar loads out of identical rifle models will be about the same...splitting hairs, nothing to worry about. Remember, each uses the same case, just different bullet diameter. A light .308 round will generate a bit less recoil than a heavy 7mm-08 load in identical rifle models.

The main advantage the .308 has over its offspring is the availability of ammo, and a much wider range of factory load offerings.

Any commercial rifle made that is chambered in a 7-08 will also be available chambered in the .308, but not necessarily vice-versa.

The slight ballistic and recoil difference between the two is negligable, just like the .270 against its parent 30-06 shooting similar loads out of identical rifles.

Anyway, Cheers and Have Fun!

**edit---forgot to mention that there are also a lot of inexpensive military surplus NATO rounds out there for plinking and varmits as well!

 

[junior]

Your money, and doubt you could go wrong with either caliber.

FYI- The main thing here is not to set the kid up for failure!

We are fortunate to have a Marine sniper and firearms instructor in the family. Here are a couple things we did with my boys.
1. Have a good rest when practicing. Bull/sand bags are a must have. Even better is the lead sled that Bob mentioned. There is zero recoil with the sled. I like the idea of starting on the sled. They can get use to the bang and get a feel for the rifle/ trigger. Then when they are ready, transition to just the bags. Dry fire helps a ton too starting out. Every couple of shots, pretend to load the rifle, but don't. The kids learns the embarassing way about flinch, and easier for you to identify when they miss the whole target! lol
2. Form! Teach correct form! You want their cheek resting on the stock, so to move with it during recoil. If they are not on the stock, the recoil moves the shoulder first, and head last! The last thing you want to happen is the scope hitting the kid in the head/eye! Also make sure to get the longest eye relief scope you can afford! We gaged the relief for my boys, then taped paper aroung the scope(roll paper into a cone)as a distance gage. This makes sure they stay the max distance away at all times. When buying rings, you want the shortest you can find, without the scope touching the barrel.
3. Make sure the gun fits them, with a good recoil pad. (We cut the stock on our kids rifle, stocks are cheap)Then make sure that the pad is centered on the shoulder when practicing. If the gun weighs 8 lb, you want atleast half that weight pressed against the shoulder starting out. This along with the centered butt, starts the recoil up on the barrel, instead of straight back into the shoulder. Take note that they are not holding down on the forend too. You also need to make sure they are semi relaxed under recoil. Tight muscles equal bruises.
4. Ear protection is a must have starting out for the kid thats already timid of a rifle. My Nephew shot a rifle one time with my bro-inlaw, and was terrified of the bang. It took him(3 years) to age 13 to try again.
I know this sounds extreme, but in few years your kid will make you very proud.

Oh yea-IMO -The 308 wins hands down. lol

 

[stinkystomper]

577 t-rex. If you can get them shooting that one good now you will never have to worry about them flinching. Only down hill from there.

Honestly dude I hunted with a 222 till I was 16 at which point I took up the 25-06. I would steer a wide circle from a 308. Hands down it is one of the most accurate calibers know to man aside from 6mm br and customs like that. The 308 is barbaric. Its ballistics are horrible and its effieiency with elk is wanting. Look to the newer more flat shooting calibers. Your in the west and that means you need to get comfortable with long range. Long range would be 25-06, 257 wby, 22-250, 7mm mag. etc.

Of the calibers listed above 25-06 and 22-250 will be on par with 308 recoil. However when a 308 is like shooting a mortar past 300 yards the 25-06 and 22-250 will be like shooting a laser cannon. Both rifles have more energy when loaded properly and both have much better killing power as they can be loaded with some pretty sweet shooting ballistics. The high bc bullets in a 25-06 will dance circles around a 308 all day long. Just keep in mind that those old calibers like 308 are just that. They are old. The newer chamberings are often the difference between smokeless powder and black powder. Just my run down but please don't go shooting elk with a 308 with your kids. 308 and elk need to be handled with the same respect as a bow and elk. Precise shot placement and no room for error or your done. If your thinkin 308 just go ahead and buy a 30-30 or a 45/70 gvmt. Might as well throw yourself all the way back to the stone age and not stop just a tad bit shy of it.

 

[IChaseCoues]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-12 AT 03:53PM (MST)[p]JR, Good advice!

As for cartridge, it depends a lot on the nature and the size of the shooter as to what they will handle and what will imbed a flintch. We started out my son with a 22, then graduated to a 222. After he killed a few deer and antelope with the 222 I bought him a 243. We still load it a little light, but it has plenty of power for Muleys. He's 10 now so he was small when starting. If he draws for elk this year I'll let him shoot my 7WSM with a brake that shoots like a powder puff!
My belief is to teach them to shoot accurately, then up the power only if needed and only when they're ready. No reason to give the kid bad habits by starting them off with too large of cartridge. Heck I don't even like recoil so maybe I'm biased!

My $.02

 

[GoBigorGohome]

Ichasecoues- tha nks for your. 02? i think that is true. Its hard to see my 65lbs son shooting a .308

 

[1FastGambler]

Come on stinky, I doubt his kid is a sissy.

He should get this... 338 yellow bastard.

[http://www.vigilancerifles.com/338yellowbastard.html]


A lot of good advice in this post & I don't disagree at all about the .308 & 7mm-08, but from my personal experience the .270 wsm is a better choice as long as you don't have anything against muzzle brakes.

 

[coryb]

I think you would be best off with a smaller caliber that he can shoot well. A .243 is great on elk out to about 150 yards or so and is great in the recoil department. A 25-06 gets you to about 200 yards with only slightly more recoil. A .308 gets you past 300 yards but has double the recoil of the .243.

Accuracy is by far the most important component of a clean kill. For deer you should shoot for over 1200 ft/lbs of energy and elk require above 1500.

Chuck hawks has a great table for energy/velocity at
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table2.htm

and another table for recoil at
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Many of the elk I have seen killed have been by my dad's .243.

Cory

 

[greatwestern]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-12 AT 06:58PM (MST)[p]Oh Golly...Next, ol Stinky will be recommending either the .600 Overkill or the .17 HMR, and insisting that the 30-06 is an OLD and haggard round, incapable of cleanly killing an elk

Ya Cory, Chuck's tables have always been OK, though a bit primitive perhaps. Very vague as to what particular bullets were 'tested', and out of which exact rifle models...too much generalization. Here is another of his rather abstract articles:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_rifles.htm

The 25-06 (30-06 cased necked way down) is a great cartridge...but maybe a bit marginal for elk sized animals (max weight bullets are still very light). Hardly a 'laser beam' in trajectory either. Also ain't the youngest round out there

Sure, there are plenty of truly modern cartridges that smoke the venerable .308 or 06 families ballistically, but their cost is paid in stiff recoil and expensive ammunition. A brake might be nice on the shoulder, but certainly not on the ears. I value my hearing, and refuse to guide a hunter insisting on bringing a braked rifle. Shooting situations in the hunting field don't always allow for folks to properly protect their ears in the heat of the moment. It only takes ONE instance to negatively affect a persons hearing indefinitely.

Anyway, here is another interesting link regarding the .308 and 7-08 for long range big game hunting:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/308-winchester-1.php

Best of Luck!

**edit---Also, do not forget about MOMENTUM, highly underrated, yet irrefutable factor in the 'killing power' equation

 

[Gator]

2nd the 25-06 they are big enough for deer and elk.
I would Mag-a-port any rifle I got for him.
The recoil would be mangable for a small frame.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]

 

[NMHUNTER]

25-06 is a necked down 30-06 and is gonna pack a pretty good kick, especially for a 65 lbs kid. as stated before go small then go bigger if needed. the 243 is more than capable of killing anything from yotes to elk.

 

[GoBigorGohome]

What a weekend we had. Finally!!! my boys passed their hunter safety classes. Now the applying for hunts are gonna star. i asked the same questions that i posted and some of the instructor were suprised what you guys recommended for my 65lbs son. They told me that the .308 was a little bit too much for him and some recommend that the .243 will be better for him. The farthest shot i will let him take is 100 yards.i had parents saying their boys cant even take the recoil of a 12 guage. I know some of you said if they cant the recoil they shouldnt hunt. why is that? I asked one of the guy what the different between a 117gr 7mm-08 and a 125 gr .243? he said that they should be the same? what do you think?

 

[WapitiBob]

congrats to the kids.
You can get reduced loads as well as shoot from a sled with 2 bags of lead when you are at the range, which is what I did. Your kids won't feel a thing. When he takes a shot at a buck, he could be shooting Stinkers 50 BMG and he wouldn't feel it.

Ask Paul what he did with Zach. Zach's doing fine and started young.

 

[GoBigorGohome]

Thanks WapitiBob!
The kids are happy but we shall see if they get to draw on their first time on applying.

 

[stinkystomper]

Can it greatwestern! its like you read my friggin mind. thats exactly where i was going next. i was gonna do the 17 hmr and 600 NE. then i was gonna step it up to the 700 NE and belittle all ballistics that are less than 338. I think you may have my number.

ok a serious answer though? 270 and 25-06 is too much recoil for a kid that size so is a 243. if be is only 65lbs he needs a 223 in a heavy caliber. just give him 2 years or so to grow into an elk caliber. accuracy is everything n u do t want him recoil sensitive. 223's will kill muledeer all day long at 300 yards ive done it a lot. its a deadly caliber. dont do muzzle breaks. its not an if but a when he shoots it without hearing protection. your hearing doesnt give u a second chance and putting him behind a muzzle break will be the biggest dis service you will ever do for the kid. keep noise and recoil light and the gun weight around 13 lbs n pack his gun for himm he will graduate to a heavier caliber in a few years at which time you will have a top notch marksman on your hands.

 

[coryb]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-12 AT 08:13AM (MST)[p]Most .243 loads you find will be 75-105 grains, but there are some heavier ones out there. You'll be hard pressed to find much for the 7mm under 120 grains. The .243 gives you more options to find something the gun likes while keeping recoil low.

I also agree with Stinky that a .223 would be great and that whatever gun you choose should be HEAVY. I'm in the market for a .300 win and plan on getting a semi auto (R1) and a heavy scope to help manage recoil. Lower recoil will improve accuracy, period.

Cory

 

[GoBigorGohome]

Thanks Stinkystomper and Cory,
He have shot a .223 single shot made by H&R and he tdid great. I think that kind of stock and length will help him control the gun because even some youth model are long for him to control the recoil. Im looking at a same HR model but maybe in a 7mm-08...

 

[WapitiBob]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-12 AT 11:59AM (MST)[p].

 

[junior]

+1 What bob didn't say..lol

 

[greatwestern]

Ah shucks Stinky, I wouldn't have guessed the .7 Nitro...I figured you'd skip that mortar lobber and go for one of the top dog ballistic monsters like the Improved BMG or the .50 Fat Mac

Right on Shanqwa, glad your boys had good success with the Hunters Ed, nice work!

While I still don't quite understand the apprehension over light bullet@reduced velocity loads out of a 7- or .308 , I hope you guys find a great rifle that suits your needs and is a pleasure to shoot. I guess I'm just of the belief that you can always start with a reduced loading in a medium caliber and work your way up; instead of starting with a smaller caliber, and eventually arriving at the juncture of wanting a more 'Oomph' that the little round is incapable of producing, thereby necessitating a new rifle. But its obviously your choice, and I wish ya'll the Best.

Cheers'

 

[leftturnabq]

Another vote for the 7mm-08. I have a couple of friends with them and they are a great round. One buddy's small boy has knocked down a deer, a bull elk and an oryx with it shooting 140 grain hornady ammo off of my Bog Pod.

As others have mentioned, I highly recommend avoiding the muzzle brake. Not only due to hearing damage, but the loud report can have the same effect as high recoil when it comes to developing a flinch.

Proper length of pull, a good recoil pad, and good shooting stick are the way to go. Another great tool is a sled for range shooting.

 

[NMHUNTER]

the 7mm-08 is gonna kick a little more than a 243. i agree with stink on the 223. my pops always started us out deer hunting with a 222 and it does the job just fine.

 

[GoBigorGohome]

Thanks guys for all the input you gave me. I have decided that I will be entering my boys for deer draws only. ill let him grow a lil bigger for him to take the recoil. I will either get a .243 or . 223 for him if he get drawn for deer.
Once again, thanks for everyones input.

 

[SweetBull]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt it illegil to hunt big game in this state with a .223? or a .222 for that matter?

 

[GoBigorGohome]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-12 AT 01:21PM (MST)[p]Sweetbull- There is no minimal caliber that is recommended as long as the caliber is a center fire caliber, no rimfire ammo are allowed.

 

[SweetBull]

for elk

"Legal Sporting Arms
Any Legal Sporting Arm:
Centerfire rifle or handgun, .24 caliber or larger; shotgun no smaller
than 28 gauge, firing a single slug; bow and arrow; crossbow and bolt;
or muzzleloading rifle no smaller than .45 caliber.



For deer you are correct, they changed it to no minimum caliber, used to be .24 cal

 

[GoBigorGohome]

yeah...sorry i posted on earlier post that i will be entering my boys for deer draw...i think my youngest wont handle any recoil larger than a .243 for elk.
Sweetbuul- what do you think about .243 and elk? The .243 can the stir the pot real bad when it comes to elk hunting

 

[SweetBull]

I think it's probably ok if you're a pretty good shot. wouldnt shoot into the wind or over 175 though. use a shooting stick and put on a good stalk to close most of the distance, and then it could be safely done. But probably not a good idea for beginners.

 

[stinkystomper]

Hey shank, seriously dude. Laws are in place to guide the idiots period! If your son wants to hunt elk with a 222 or a 223 and he can shoot golf balls at 100 yards then let him. Just carry around some legal caliber to make the damn game wardens happy. A perfect shot in the crease of the shoulder broadside with a 222 or 223 is deadly. a 243 needs the same shot placement as you wont have much luck with it on the shoulder. Shot placement is everything and to heck with certain laws. Laws are for a general refrence cuz we have slob hunters. a 223 will kill easier than a bow if you shoot a 223 like a bow. It just limits you a little more and if you have half a brain and don't take "stupid" shots then a 222 will kill everything under the sun. If we have bow hunters in the field why not a youth with a 222 for elk? just my two cents

 

[junior]

Never a dull moment with the ole Stinkster around.

 

[NMHUNTER]

243 will kill elk all day. we have killed bulls and cows with one

 

[GoBigorGohome]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-12 AT 01:29PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-12 AT 01:25?PM (MST)

Post #43--Thanks guys for all the input you gave me. I have decided that I will be entering my boys for deer draws only. ill let him grow a lil bigger for him to take the recoil. I will either get a .243 or . 223 for him if he get drawn for deer.
Once again, thanks for everyones input

Hey stinky, did you read the post number 43. i mentioned that i will be putting my boys for deer draw only because my youngest cant handle a recoil of anything bigger beyond a .243 for an elk hunt. this also posted too but thanks stinky for the comment.

NMHUNTER-It will kill elk but i thought i would just ask what they recommend for a youth. Some are against the .243 and some arent.