Why do we bash SFW?

hossblur

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
10,522
The expo has passed. The usual conspiracy theorys get combined with actual facts and one group is always the one getting either slammed or put on a pedestool.


So. Why does SFW create such a polarizing narrative?

MDF benefits from expo tags.

RMEF, DU, pheasants forever, rocky mtn squrell assoc., etc, etc.

Of the strictly hunting groups(BHA, TRCP, NRA etc not strictly hunting), why is it that in Utah they have some support, but nationwide they are not supported.

I have my reasons. Curious about others. And how about a few specifics instead of the usual generalities?

For the record. I think SFW is extremely good at what they do. I do think the boots on the ground for the most part care about wildlife and trying to make a difference.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
A ? For you Hoss.
All states other than Utah are concerned over the anti hunting community getting involved in there Fish and Game Department and hurting some form of hunting and/or trapping. (New Mexico to name one)
Prop 5 really dampings any hope of changing hunting and trapping laws by fish and game takeover.
So why do other states not try a similar law as prop 5?
I do not mean to change the thread but if you have some great inside info on other states please clue me in. I think your ? about SFW and why states do not support a SFW like organization and why other states do not push a similar law as prop 5 is very sumilar.
 
#1 Look at the expo bid process and how that back door deal went down. The expo will never see a $ from my family.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-19 AT 11:37AM (MST)[p]>A ? For you Hoss.
>All states other than Utah are
>concerned over the anti hunting
>community getting involved in there
>Fish and Game Department and
>hurting some form of hunting
>and/or trapping. (New Mexico to
>name one)
>Prop 5 really dampings any hope
>of changing hunting and trapping
>laws by fish and game
>takeover.
>So why do other states not
>try a similar law as
>prop 5?
>I do not mean to change
>the thread but if you
>have some great inside info
>on other states please clue
>me in. I think your
>? about SFW and why
>states do not support a
>SFW like organization and why
>other states do not push
>a similar law as prop
>5 is very sumilar.


I listened to and read a lot about HS coming into Arizona and the efforts to stop it.

One of those proposals was create an "expo" light. There was/is a huge uproar about NOT wanting the Utah model. Guys would rather fight HS than give up control.

I've always given $fw props for prop 5. Truth is a was just getting married and getting life started when they started so my reasons for not joining were being poor.

But prop 5 was forever ago.

Honest answer, and maybe we should ask, why haven't other states pushed a similar idea.

But I started this one because both PUBLICALLY and Privately I hear all the noise. I got a ton from my boys. One is old enough to draw, the other found out that elk101, Newberg, born and raised were there and was pizzed I don't attend. Its hard to explain to kids what's going on, so I was just in trouble.

I've heard the "things have changed, new leadership, dons gone, more open" narrative. I haven't seen any of it, but I'm open to changing my mind.





From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Simple. Transparency in how money is spent. Has that changed at all?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-19 AT 12:28PM (MST)[p]Hoss thanks open honest answer
In my opinion the word you used control is one part why other states do not participate in the SFW model.
The other part I think is a bigger part and that is Power. When the people of Utah voted for prop 5 the pepol in power realized how much a driven agenda could change things in the Utah and maybe not the way the would want. Example Prop2 medical marijuana, who would have ever thought marijuana could be legal in Utah.
Now let's be honest most states if not all states have a organizationa that does not want give up control & power example the Guide and Outfitters association of Wyoming (sorry if i do not know the appropriate name).
I am not a member of SFW, I do attend the expo it is fun and nice to see some of the new equipment, clothes or the opportunity to see some awesome trophies and taxidermy and if pepole apply for some permits with terrible odds well not a big deal because if you took them same permits and put them in the general draw they would only change the odds by merely percentages of percents in most cases. IT is also nice to see fellow hunters lodge friends that maybe you have not seen in a few years (like last year I ran into fishon and got a chance too visit for a minute and yes I will attend his Outdoor show for some of the same reasons)
Now I am not saying the SFW is right for everyone, I do not agree with the way the new bid was handled. But it is obviously right for alot of people in Utah.
Hoss and Grizz keep up the good fight
I personal do not agree with some things you guys push but then again
If someone Doesn't question others, do we trust our selves.
 
Perfect. I should have included why do guys support as well. My question follows my slant.




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Because of Greed.

We have a diminishing resource. We have decades of mismanagement. We have outdated harvest practices that have been confused by the ignorant masses to be ethics.

Like I have said for years look at the twisted anger which gets put on display here all in response to less than one percent of the big game tags being distributed differently than the other 99.6%.

There really is no logic to the arguments. I've listened to them time and time and again.

The reason the bashing has lasted as long as it has is because you aren't honest about your intentions or desires or motives. SO the problem never gets resolved. There isn't any honesty coming from the haters. Be honest and I bet you would see people listen closer.
 
Yep. It's less than 1% so why worry about it???

Anyone here able to follow a paper trail and show where this ? insignificant? amount of money goes?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Tri,
That's a pretty broad statement regarding the tags. That might be true if all 100% of the tags were of the same "value". You are talking about 1% of arguably the best tags in the State. That's why they cause up roar. If you took (200) tags from the other end of the spectrum, you might have a little different reaction regarding that less than 1%. Just my Opinion.
 
Because SFW pimps out the expo tags by using the application fees to line their personal pockets instead of using it for conservation.
 
Because they are Utah?s biggest wildlife pimp and they are not 100% transparent about the funds they bring in ?for conservation?. After they lied and said that they would show a full accounting.
They claim to be the savior of wildlife in Utah when no one (including themselves) can prove that the money generated from all the pimping they do, has made our deer herds any better.






"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
most people still support prop five but prop five was a long time ago. it is what has happened the past 20 years when they used prop 5 to gain control of the management.
8000 tags taken out of the draw. possible tag numbers suppressed means hunting opportunity lost. statements made against the nawcm. telling utah hunters to go to colorado. special treatment in public meetings. just some reasons why they are bashed.
sfw is going in a better direction lately with the new leadership.
 
SFW has blurred the line between "conservation" and "for profit" wildlife to the extent it is indistinguishable.

The lack of transparency was just a start. Funding so much of their salaries and overhead form Expo profits was a continuation. Don then used his influence to form several other for profit endeavors to enrich himself. Now throw in how part of that profit get funneled back to legislators as "lobbying", and you have completed a vicious circle. Does anyone really believe the purpose of the Full Curl Society is conservation?

I am pro business, and pro capitalism. It is hiding behind the mantra of conservation, when really pushing for profit enterprises that gets my hackles up. And I do believe most of the "boots on the ground" folks are well intentioned, and there are some valuable projects that get done. It isn't all bad for the state of Utah's wildlife.

But the overall commercialization of wildlife, and the enrichment of the few that have parlayed this na?ve conservation message into a for profit engine has left me disgusted. You don't see this in any of the other, respected conservation organizations like DU, RMEF, or DSC.

Don has a very successful business model, and if it wasn't on the backs of Utah's sportsmen I would be more forgiving. The small fraction of their earnings they use on true conservation projects is just camouflage for the rest of their activities.

Bill
 
Tri is correct in one thing, there is definitely a group of people that have not been honest in our wildlife management. I'm not sure he's accurately identified them yet, but he's on the right track when he says that lack of honesty is the single driving issue with wildlife management in the state of Utah.
 
You Utah guys need to thank your lucky stars you dont live in Kalifornicated.
Compared to Cali, your deer herds and hunting are top notch. You're doing something right.
 
Here is my questions? Why are there so many darn post about Utah in the general hunting section half of which don't even say Utah but the Utah folks always think there the only state on this site. Put Utah in Utah!
 
>Utah has fantastic hunting. I don't
>think any reasonable person would
>dispute that.

The Quality has been Diving off & Down since about 2009-2010 in Our LE Units!

Why Would anybody wanna FRICK that Up?

"THE RICH & GREEDY WILL KILL THE QUALITY"









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-19 AT 08:47PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-19 AT 08:45?PM (MST)
Calls.....
The OP headline brought up SFW
No other state wants it. ?

Elk....
2009-2010 isnwhen the expo started!?

Packer.....
Your post #14 is spot on!
I could not have said it better!





"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-19
>AT 08:47?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-19
>AT 08:45?PM (MST)
>Calls.....
>The OP headline brought up SFW
>
>No other state wants it. ?
>
>
>Elk....
>2009-2010 isnwhen the expo started!?
>
>Packer.....
>Your post #14 is spot on!
>
>I could not have said it
>better!
>
>
>
>
>
>"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak.
>So
>we must and we will."
>Theadore Roosevelt


Billy the expo started in 2006 not 2009/2010
 
Elk maybe you need to get out of the basin there is some pretty good hunting on most limited entry units. I am tired of so many guys on this site that might have a bad year on one unit and then they judge the hole state according to that.
If guys on this site want to help out the situation of the deer and elk herds do not purchase a permit this next year it is as simple as that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-19 AT 02:05AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-19 AT 02:04?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-19 AT 02:02?AM (MST)

?Don?t purchase a permit?
Really?
How bout I'll do better than that!
I've done better than that for 10 years!
I've bought a shizz load of tags and haven't filled nearly a quarter of them.
Expo permits? Expo attendee?
You won't see me there giving my money to Don Peay

What's wrong with looking at the money generated from the expo and then looking into what projects have been completed in the areas I hunt? Because I have and very little to none has been done!
Oh wait....
A general season season unit is for opportunity not quality. Guess I better be happy with seeing pisscutters everywhere for the poor peasants.
I have to wait 2 decades to hunt an area where several projects have been completed.

It's BS





"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
And very quickly the question gets answered.

Vanilla showed up and says I stated something that I never said at all. Towlie, who actually is another poster on here, showed up talking trash and again trying to lie. Llamapacker stated, "I am pro business, and pro capitalism", right after saying this ,"Don then used his influence to form several other for profit endeavors to enrich himself." Like I said, the haters just can't be honest.

These people, who I am sure feel they are being picked on right now, don't want you to know how they honestly feel. Guess why! it's emotionally based in GREED. It has nothing to do with logic. If they stated why they were behaving this way they would be ashamed of themselves and embarrassed.

So it is easier to cry for years and years on an internet forum hoping someone will give you what you want to shut you up like mommy did.

Openingday, had the most honest response out of all of you at post 9. His honesty starts to show this is about "value". Now I would like him or others on here to elaborate about what makes the "value".
 
>Elk maybe you need to get
>out of the basin there
>is some pretty good hunting
>on most limited entry units.
>I am tired of so
>many guys on this site
>that might have a bad
>year on one unit and
>then they judge the hole
>state according to that.
>If guys on this site want
>to help out the
>situation of the deer and
>elk herds do not purchase
>a permit this next year
>it is as simple as
>that.

Maybe You need to get out of where ever you're Cooped up at & Compare Quality to Now & Then!

If You haven't Noticed Our LE Elk Units going down Hill you might wanna Pay Some Attention!

"Pretty Good' Compared to World Class Doesn't do it for me!

GREED & $$$ has taken a serious Tole on the LE Units!

So Tell Me SMART Guy!

Joe Blow Protests as Per your Request:

He's Retaliating against the BS!

He decides not to try & Draw a General or LE Permit!

"""I'll Show Them"""

Thousands of other Hunters in Line will Get a Shot at the Tag!

And Gladly Take the Tag!

Yup!

You Showed them!

You Accomplished Absolutely F'N Nothing!

When You get enough Joe Blows Lined up to actually get something accomplished Please let us know!

The Quality of everything has been Falling for many years now!

There's many Reasons Why!

GREED & $$$ covers most of it!

PISS POOR Management relates back to the GREED & $$$!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Tikka.....
You?re right. The expo started before 2009-2010.
Those years must have stood out to me because they were the years that SFW actually started accounting for the expo tag revenue.
My bad?


"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
?Be honest and I bet you would see people listen closer.?

Tri-you did say this. And I agree with it entirely. I still think you have failed to correctly identify who this applies to, however. But you're on the right track. Keep at it, you'll get there some day little buddy.
 
"but he's on the right track when he says that lack of honesty is the single driving issue with wildlife management in the state of Utah."

This is the original sentence you posted Vanilla, which you claimed I stated. I never stated that at all. I have a hard time believing your memory is actually this bad. Like I said, BE HONEST.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-19 AT 08:53AM (MST)[p]If you're going to use all CAPS, at least end it with an EXCLAMATION!

Hasn't ole bessy taught you anything?

And yes, I did read into that statement and take literary license, reading into this more from the history of this discussion beyond just this thread, but tell me I was wrong. BE HONEST!
 
I started this because of all the conspiracy theories get old.

$fw can't be the sneakiest, cleverest group alive, and be dumb enough to hand out expo tags to their friends. Doing so would be fraud and they would lose the expo instantly.

But because I don't think they are stupid I also don't buy the coincidence game They play. They aren't PUBLICALLY pro public land not on accident. They aren't loading up the WB, or pushing political candidates "just because". They have a very definite political slant, they are supporting very specific candidates, who have a very specific cause.

They also haven't pushed a single issue in the RACS or WB that creates or extends situations for the average guy. They have done so for the commercial aspects, and paying customers.

They still aren't open with their finances. That's not an ommision, its not a work in progress, its a Buisness practice. They purposefully keep things hidden.

The Don still runs it. Perhaps not on paper, but like was pointed out in another post, when the governor shows up it ain't Troy walking him around. When those high rollers scratch checks, the don gets his cut first.

RMEF started somewhere, and grew rapidly out of those borders. BHA is doing so now. Same with any other major group. $fw in 3 decades hasn't. And in fact is used in most the surrounding states as the group that exemplifies every thing wrong with "conservation groups". That's not hearsay, its just a fact.

They do projects. No doubt. They care even better at advertising those projects. Have you missed the "urban deer relocation" trailer? But so what? They are paid to do them. That is supposedly what all the tag money is for isn't it? Do we celebrate Parsons when they build a road? Or are they just a paid contractor? There are a ton of orgs that get zero tags, and do projects.

Last. They came about promising to speak for the average guy with the DWR. They didn't. They exploited the disconnect. The RACS have become such a dog and pony show, lots of us just gave up, me included. The wink and nod is disgusting, but more so is the back room deals that always follow. Only to be further insulted by having the WB run by them. This, in my opinion is the most damaging thing they have done. Regardless of where you stand, the loss of your voice in decisions is horrific. It creates massive mistrust whether you believe $$$ or greed rules, knowing your powerless to change it, is the legacy of $fw.

Fact is. Until they can't leach off public, they are here. If YOU attended the expo, for whatever reason, you went to the governor as an "attendee". Regardless of reason, you being there supports $fw assertion that they are wildly popular, and speak for the Utah sportsman.

But don't go, benefit them, hand them money, then show up with conspiracy and complaints.







From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-19 AT 09:13AM (MST)[p]>Tikka.....
>You?re right. The expo started before
>2009-2010.
>Those years must have stood out
>to me because they were
>the years that SFW actually
>started accounting for the expo
>tag revenue.
>My bad?
>
>
>"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak.
>So
>we must and we will."
>Theadore Roosevelt


??
 
"And yes, I did read into that statement and take literary license, reading into this more from the history of this discussion beyond just this thread, but tell me I was wrong. BE HONEST!"


Wow. That's one mighty wordy way to admit you lied. Honestly you were wrong.


Now lets get to the honesty of the OP. Finally Hossblur comes clean. Its crazy but its as honest as he can ever be. He starts with a good opening and informative sentence.

"I started this because of all the conspiracy theories get old."

Sound honest. Right?????????? And then he goes straight to this.

" They aren't loading up the WB, or pushing political candidates "just because". They have a very definite political slant, they are supporting very specific candidates, who have a very specific cause."

Man that sounds like ol' Hossblur might be batting around a few conspiracy theories. Then he goes straight to this.

" When those high rollers scratch checks, the don gets his cut first."

Yep. That's the sign of a good ol' dishonest MM thread. Step 1 proclaim you are tired of the conspiracy theories. Step 2 introduce the conspiracy theories you've been pushing on the internet for years.

Next Hossblur posts this.

"And in fact is used in most the surrounding states as the group that exemplifies every thing wrong with "conservation groups". That's not hearsay, its just a fact."

Actually HONESTLY that IS hearsay by every definition of the word. That is your opinion. FACT has nothing to do with that sentence.

Then I love this paragraph.

"They do projects. No doubt. They care even better at advertising those projects. Have you missed the "urban deer relocation" trailer? But so what? They are paid to do them. That is supposedly what all the tag money is for isn't it? Do we celebrate Parsons when they build a road? Or are they just a paid contractor? There are a ton of orgs that get zero tags, and do projects."

Is Parsons constantly harassed on the web by tons of haters? You are right there are orgs that get zero tags and do projects. They have one business model and SFW has another. Doesn't mean one is better than the other. ALL ORGS NEED MONEY TO DO PROJECTS. All of them. Don't kid yourself. Hey Hossblur I want you to answer this question. What's happening with the UWC? Haven't heard much about them from the SFW haters in awhile. What happened there?


Last you state this?

"They came about promising to speak for the average guy with the DWR. "

Are you the average guy Hossblur? Can you point to a study or statistic which proves you are the average guy? Please define this for us all here. Is it possible that your ego influences your belief that all things should be handled exactly how YOU would handle them and most reasonable guys strive to be more like you since YOU define what the average guy is??????
 
Tri,
That is a very simple answer. We are talking about Limited Entry Units in Utah correct?? This is where the (200) tags are taken from. The value is in the mature animals on these units. Trophy potential is in all these units, but higher in some compared to others. Clearly, there are more mature bucks on the Henry Mountains than there is on the South Slope Yellowstone. Hence, the value of the Henry Mountains tag outweighs the Yellowstone. Hence the Henrys tag for auction and not the Yellowstone. There are trophy animals all over this State, both general units and LE units. Very few people compared to the masses are successful on mature animals year in and year out on general season tags. My opinion is that we wait all these years to hunt the LE units, not so we are guaranteed a large "trophy" animal, but so we can hunt a place managed for mature animals. We already get to hunt units managed for yearlings with our general season tags every couple years. SO... When the 1% of the highest valued tags are taken from the general pool, its no wonder people are upset about it. I started a thread a while back about actual tag #'s. I would love to know how many total Limited Entry tags on top of the (200) expo tags are taken every year for raffle or auction. Not just by SFW, but all tags! I bet that number would be mind blowing. I also have very little doubt, that in the name of conservation, if ALL of these tags were put back in the general pool, average joes like myself would anty up a higher cost per license. Probably even double the amount.
 
Thanks for posting.

SO from what you are stating is older deer are more valuable deer. Units which manage for older deer offer tags which are of a higher dollar value than other general units. But certain people would rather pay less than fair market value for these tags. They believe they should have as many chances as possible to get one of those higher value tags for under fair market value?????

Here's the deal double the license isn't fair market value. It's not You have deer tags selling for tens of thousands of dollars. Double the license ain't going to cover the difference. Not by a long shot.

SO here are two honest questions. Is it responsible and wise to devalue a resource so that more people FEEL they have more access to it? Isn't it just as easy to say the state should manage more and more units for "mature " animals if the trend of the consumers is to want that more and more over the general unit hunts?
 
Tri,
I am going to try to answer your questions the best I can. The DWR should have a set budget on what needs to be raised every given year to cover all costs of managing our wildlife. Tags don't go unsold, so this # should be easy to figure. Maybe this is stupid logic, but take the yearly budget needed divided by the # of total tags you are going to sell and you should have what a tag should cost right in front of you. Thats the value of a tag. Divide those costs up per tag however they like ie. Limited vs. General. There should be no need for Auction tags.
Changing Subject.
The way I see it, When someone buys a Limited Entry tag at auction, the value is not necessarily in the tag itself. That person is purchasing the years it would have taken to draw the tag. Paying to jump to the front of the line if you will. To me, thats the reason these tags sell for large amounts of $$. Again, not needed.
Changing subject again..
I sort of look at General tags and Limited Entry tags as separate entities. General is managed for yearlings, where the Limited Units are managed for mature animals. Unfortunately in Utah, you get to play both games. This I dont agree on. Make a person choose and applications are cut in half. Some stay with Limited and others stick to general. At least we get to choose whether we wait in line for a mature animal hunt or hunt frequently. People move through the lines much faster. It blows me away that you can be on a Limited entry deer hunt while still acquiring a point for a general season hunt and vice versa. Sorry for the long reply. I tried to answer your questions as best I could.
 
"SO from what you are stating is older deer are more valuable deer. Units which manage for older deer offer tags which are of a higher dollar value than other general units. But certain people would rather pay less than fair market value for these tags. They believe they should have as many chances as possible to get one of those higher value tags for under fair market value?????"

The fair market value for any tag is the selling price of the tag set by DNR and NOT some someone with a few too many Corona's in their system. Those are merely fools being easily departed with their money...

When it is a public resource, yes, I should have as many chances to exercise the use of that resource as allowed.
 
**Not directed at anyone in particular, just anyone who supports the SFW.

How anyone could possibly defend SFW is beyond me.

HONESTLY, the facts are there. If you want to be blind to them you are more than welcome to.

Do you truly think that getting back 30% of the revenue for conservation is better than the 100% promised by RMEF?

Do you feel like the bid process to get the expo between RMEF and SFW was a fair open and honest process?

Does SFW having multiple former members/board members/connections on the Utah State Wildlife Board cause anyone concern? Should it not be more balanced?

The fact that people connected with SFW and friends have drawn more than a few tags, multiples, ect. isn't a concern? There is zero accountability or oversight in the draw, how can you possibly say that it's fair? You don't know and neither do I, but if you don't have oversight, you can't say underhanded things are not happening.

Do you feel that one group that does not represent the ideas and thoughts of the majority of Utah hunters should have all the say and pull regarding Wildlife decisions?

Do you feel like Don Peay is honest and trustworthy and has the wildlife and hunters first and foremost in his mind?

Do you feel that it's normal if SFW is so great that no other state will touch them with a 10 foot pole?

99% of people who have concerns about the expo draw and SFW would likely be completely satisfied with an audit of where the money goes, and the draw passed over to a legitimate company with real oversight. How would that be a bad thing for anyone?

Change those things and show where the money goes and make sure the expo draw is honest, and they would have all the support in the world. But you and I both know they can't do that as it would expose where the money really goes, and that the draw isn't so above board.
 
>"And yes, I did read into
>that statement and take literary
>license, reading into this more
>from the history of this
>discussion beyond just this thread,
>but tell me I was
>wrong. BE HONEST!"
>
>
>Wow. That's one mighty wordy
>way to admit you lied.
> Honestly you were wrong.
>
>
>
>Now lets get to the honesty
>of the OP. Finally
>Hossblur comes clean. Its
>crazy but its as honest
>as he can ever be.
>He starts with a good
>opening and informative sentence.
>
>"I started this because of all
>the conspiracy theories get old."
>
>
>Sound honest. Right?????????? And then
>he goes straight to this.
>
>
>" They aren't loading up the
>WB, or pushing political candidates
>"just because". They have a
>very definite political slant, they
>are supporting very specific candidates,
>who have a very specific
>cause."
>
>Man that sounds like ol' Hossblur
>might be batting around a
>few conspiracy theories. Then
>he goes straight to this.
>
>
>" When those high rollers scratch
>checks, the don gets his
>cut first."
>
>Yep. That's the sign of
>a good ol' dishonest MM
>thread. Step 1 proclaim
>you are tired of the
>conspiracy theories. Step 2 introduce
>the conspiracy theories you've been
>pushing on the internet for
>years.
>
>Next Hossblur posts this.
>
> "And in fact is used
>in most the surrounding states
>as the group that exemplifies
>every thing wrong with "conservation
>groups". That's not hearsay, its
>just a fact."
>
>Actually HONESTLY that IS hearsay by
>every definition of the word.
> That is your opinion.
> FACT has nothing to
>do with that sentence.
>
>Then I love this paragraph.
>
>"They do projects. No doubt. They
>care even better at advertising
>those projects. Have you missed
>the "urban deer relocation" trailer?
>But so what? They are
>paid to do them. That
>is supposedly what all the
>tag money is for isn't
>it? Do we celebrate Parsons
>when they build a road?
>Or are they just a
>paid contractor? There are a
>ton of orgs that get
>zero tags, and do projects."
>
>
>Is Parsons constantly harassed on the
>web by tons of haters?
> You are right there
>are orgs that get zero
>tags and do projects.
>They have one business model
>and SFW has another.
>Doesn't mean one is better
>than the other. ALL
>ORGS NEED MONEY TO DO
>PROJECTS. All of them.
> Don't kid yourself.
>Hey Hossblur I want you
>to answer this question.
>What's happening with the UWC?
> Haven't heard much about
>them from the SFW haters
>in awhile. What happened
>there?
>
>
>Last you state this?
>
>"They came about promising to speak
>for the average guy with
>the DWR. "
>
>Are you the average guy Hossblur?
> Can you point to
>a study or statistic which
>proves you are the average
>guy? Please define this
>for us all here.
>Is it possible that your
>ego influences your belief that
>all things should be handled
>exactly how YOU would handle
>them and most reasonable guys
>strive to be more like
>you since YOU define what
>the average guy is??????

First. The Don is a PAID lobbyist/consultant/rainmaker. His job is to bring in high rollers. Not conspiracy, FACT.

I never joined nor was part of UWC.

Feel free to look up Jason Chaffetz, I'm sure your Google works.

I'm 45. 3 kids. Average income. Drive a chev. Shoot a 30-06'. Hunt public land. That's what makes me average.

You Be never been to a rac or WB, so as usual you talk out your azz.

But funny you spout the same greed like as others. $fw was fixing that in the 90' s. Guess that didn't work huh? Only an idiot thinks taking $5 for conservation and giving any org $3.50 of it is a good investment.

But Tri. Your the one schooling me. Short of their trade show, and getting Austad his AI deer. What is $fw major accomplishment? Well over $10million taken in, where or what can you point to for that kind of money?

Last, are you a member? Funny how the biggest "supporters" of $fw, you and Muley, believe and trust in them so little you won't scratch them a yearly membership check.

Money talks, bullchit walks.

One day in and the supporters can't show a single reason, specifically, to support them. They are great at saying how dumb everyone else is.

Hey tri. How many $fw members sit on Texas WB? In fact, how many Texas chapters and members are there?
From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
The sad thing is I was genuinely hoping all the "new leadership" talk might have changed things.

As long as Don is associated the public land stance won't, but I really was hoping that maybe, just maybe they were turning a corner.

I talked to AI ranger last week about the killing of all those sheep, and I really felt bad for $fw guys who have dumped huge effort into that herd and transplanting it.

That, along with trying to explain to my boys why we don't attend the expo got me looking around, talking to folks, half azzed hoping I could see something.

Truth is. I haven't. Truth is, they really have no intention of doing anything different.

Which is sad. Frustrating, but more than anything, its sad.




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
I am definitely not here to defend the SFW, I am involved with the MDF.

But.......one thing that no one is hitting on here about the SFW is they are also heavily involved in our fisheries and are responsible for numerous projects throughout our state.
Yes....large amounts of the monies brought in through the hunting world also goes under water.

That is not a bad thing.
 
The price set by the DNR is not fair market value.


So you think you are entitled to deer tags Road runner?????? What other gubmint handouts d you feel entitled to?
 
"First. The Don is a PAID lobbyist/consultant/rainmaker. His job is to bring in high rollers. Not conspiracy, FACT."

What does that have to do with absolutely anything you or I have typed? NADA. Is that why you hate him? Just because of his professional choices. Last time I look everything you just typed is totally legal and ethical. SO what's the problem?


"I'm 45. 3 kids. Average income. Drive a chev. Shoot a 30-06'. Hunt public land. That's what makes me average."

SO everyone that doesn't fit your same demographic is not average and does support SFW???????? SOunds like a lot more sportsman than you think support SFW.

"You Be never been to a rac or WB, so as usual you talk out your azz."


This point, although incorrect, actually has nothing to do with your post. Is it impossible for you to use logic?

"Only an idiot thinks taking $5 for conservation and giving any org $3.50 of it is a good investment."

You might want to learn what "invest" means. Because that's an absolutely great investment.

"Last, are you a member? Funny how the biggest "supporters" of $fw, you and Muley, believe and trust in them so little you won't scratch them a yearly membership check."

My membership isn't current right now. I think its funny you have decided I am their biggest supporter. This in fact isn't true. I just don't support some childish pansy crying for years on the internet about money and deer tags.

"Money talks, bullchit walks."

EXACTLY! WHY DO YOU THINK WE HAVE EXPO TAGS AND CONSERVATION TAGS! Apparently you think this rule only applies when you don't want something cheep or free.


"Hey tri. How many $fw members sit on Texas WB? In fact, how many Texas chapters and members are there?"

Haven't got a clue. That's as pointless as asking how many are in Vietnam? Like most things you type logic has no baring. I belong to TTAI. We are the largest and most successful taxidermy association in the world. We are even larger than the National association. We don't have chapters in any state but Texas. Must mean we are criminals that everyone else hates, Right??????? Maybe just everyone else that isn't "average".


Hossblur. Grow up. Quit being an internet crybaby. Quit sitting around dreaming of ways you would like to hurt women. You could actually make a difference for good.
 
"Do you truly think that getting back 30% of the revenue for conservation is better than the 100% promised by RMEF?"

All else being the same, NOPE. But they weren't the same were they. That's the fact yall never admit or talk about.

"Do you feel like the bid process to get the expo between RMEF and SFW was a fair open and honest process?"

I think it was open and honest. Whether it was fair or not, i'm older than 12, so I'm not going to argue what is and isn't fair.

"Does SFW having multiple former members/board members/connections on the Utah State Wildlife Board cause anyone concern? Should it not be more balanced?"

Sure. You are crying about it and you are somebody. What is more "balanced"?

"Do you feel that one group that does not represent the ideas and thoughts of the majority of Utah hunters should have all the say and pull regarding Wildlife decisions?"

DO you have a study that shows they don't? DO you have a pole which shows what the majority of Utah hunters do and don't support? Are you actually so foolish that you believe the majority of Utah hunters can all agree on the same things and one group can perfectly represent all those topics?????


"Do you feel like Don Peay is honest and trustworthy and has the wildlife and hunters first and foremost in his mind?"

You're kidding right?? You actually want people to pass judgement on another man that most of them have never met based exclusively off of gossip? That's disgustingly bad behavior.

"Do you feel that it's normal if SFW is so great that no other state will touch them with a 10 foot pole?"

Yes. Most states have their own wildlife plan. We have a group here called TWA. They are probably not as successful as SFW but they do pretty dang good. Little bit different model. But it works here. I don't think they are scumbags because they don't have an Oklahoma chapter. That would be a childish assumption, just like yours.
 
Tri,
Im confused. Are you saying that what these tags auction off for is what the Market value should be?? You don't agree that these tags auction for high dollar as a free pass to the front of the line?? Lets say they did away with all Auction/Expo tags. How much would a tag need to cost for the Utah DWR to cover their yearly budget to manage our wildlife efficiently, without looking for any bonus cash to distribute however they do??
 
Yes I am very childish for wanting oversight and accountability for the tags taken out of my states draw, that funds SFW. They wouldn't be in business without the expo.

Anyone who can sit there and say that 30% back for conservation is better than 100% is a moron. Show me the FACTS where that isn't the case.

It makes sense you aren't from here, that's why you don't care. Your state has no hunting resources that anyone wants. I'm tired of mine being pilfered to line the pockets of a company.
 
Tri, as always has a poor frame of reference.

I guess I missed TWA trying to set up chapters all over the west and Alaska. $fw has, and have been swatted down.

I also enjoy the notion that RMEF could never put on a show(Google elk camp), or could not guarantee security(hundreds of thousands of members putting out credit card info to RMEF for dues, donations, etc).

But the best part is "open" process. The process so open, $fw got to look at its competitors bid, then adjust their own.

I agree though. DWR needs for tag revenue. Why hasn't $fw pushed for that?

Again. Tri. Are you a member? Why not?

Same question for Muley.

Seems a yearly due is not asking much to support such a great org?



From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
"Are you saying that what these tags auction off for is what the Market value should be??"

No

" You don't agree that these tags auction for high dollar as a free pass to the front of the line?? "

No

"Lets say they did away with all Auction/Expo tags. How much would a tag need to cost for the Utah DWR to cover their yearly budget to manage our wildlife efficiently, without looking for any bonus cash to distribute however they do??"

Several thousand dollars.
 
"I guess I missed TWA trying to set up chapters all over the west and Alaska. $fw has, and have been swatted down."

Are you saying that those states have said SFW can not legally exist within their borders? I haven't heard of anything like that.

"I also enjoy the notion that RMEF could never put on a show(Google elk camp), or could not guarantee security(hundreds of thousands of members putting out credit card info to RMEF for dues, donations, etc)."

Nobody here said they couldn't.

"But the best part is "open" process. The process so open, $fw got to look at its competitors bid, then adjust their own."

Sounds pretty open to me. What's the problem?

"I agree though. DWR needs for tag revenue. Why hasn't $fw pushed for that?"

Don't know. Why don't you ask SFW instead of crying on the internet?

"Again. Tri. Are you a member? Why not?"

Again, no. I didn't renew my membership. Just like I am not current on membership with RMEF, or B&C, or TWA, etc.....

"Seems a yearly due is not asking much to support such a great org?"

I agree. Why don't you worry about your money and I'll worry about mine. I know that's not in your upbringing but you are being rude.
 
OK.
if its not too much trouble, will you elaborate on your answers above. Several thousand dollars as a cost per LE tag in Utah seems like a whole lot more money than they would currently be bringing in via Auction tags. Maybe I am wrong. Will you please elaborate
 
If you took away the tax benefit, they would not sell for even close to as much as they do. That is the reason there is an incentive for other states to put their permits in this auction, people get the tax benefit in this auction, where they would not if you just were purchasing the tag the way we do in the state draw.
 
Tri,
I dont think we are on the same page. You are talking about just the LE tags they do auction. I am talking about every single LE tag there is. How much would a Limited Entry tag have to cost to off set what is brought in from the tags they are currently auctioning off?? For sake of easy math, lets say auction tags make up 10% of all tags allocated in a given year. To me, there doesn't need to be a very large increase in price for the remaining 90% of tags to cover what that 10% brings in. If my logic is off, can you please explain how??
 
I would disagree Vanilla. Hunters pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for hunts all the time with no tax write off at all.
 
Now I see what you are saying and you are probably correct that the price on all tags would fluctuate just some and not extreme amounts. But you would lose the tangent economic benefits the auction tags bring.
 
Haha I had to laugh at this. SFW was/is against giving the public access to fish the rivers. Good example of how they privatize fishing too.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-19 AT 08:34PM (MST)[p]>I would disagree Vanilla. Hunters
>pay hundreds of thousands of
>dollars for hunts all the
>time with no tax write
>off at all.


You can disagree all you want. It's America, you can be wrong if you'd like.

Nobody is paying 300-400k to hunt what is the equivalent of a high fence trophy mule deer hunt. (For the record, I'm not against the AI hunt and would totally do it if I were the state draw hunter, just stating a fact.) Go look at the sheep hunts. They always sell for more than what you can just go buy. Why is that? Compare the Paunsy tag to what it would cost to buy a tag on the Alton. (Which provides a better chance at a trophy buck anyway.) I could go on and on. Price of guns at the SFW auction vs retail? Price of the mule vs what you could buy any other day? It all adds up to the benefit they receive vs what they are paying.

Tax deductible, tri. That is a fact, not an opinion. Yes, people pay a lot for hunts when there is no tax benefit. But not what they pay here, and that was what my statement was.
 
But its not a high fence trophy mule deer hunt. THAT ACTUALLY IS A FACT. You would think you would know the difference.

Regarding the sheep hunts I see some go for more and some go for less so using the word "always" is not true.

"Tax deductible, tri. That is a fact, not an opinion."

Actually that's an incomplete sentence.

" Yes, people pay a lot for hunts when there is no tax benefit. But not what they pay here, and that was what my statement was."

I have seen people pay over 100K for a desert sheep hunt in Texas and similar in Mexico with no tax benefit at all. I have seen desert sheep tags sell for less than that with the tax benefit. Stuff that in your pipe and smoke it.
 
"The price set by the DNR is not fair market value."

Wrong, yes it is. They are the one selling them on the open market in the form of public draw and OTC sales. It's the interference of SFW that has you confused.


"So you think you are entitled to deer tags Road runner?????? What other gubmint handouts d you feel entitled to?"

Just as entitled as the next guy for a public resource as long as I am willing to pay the app and license fee and participate in the open and public draw with equal chances as everyone else.

The only one promoting the sense of entitlement you describe is you...
 
""The price set by the DNR is not fair market value."

Wrong, yes it is. They are the one selling them on the open market in the form of public draw and OTC sales. It's the interference of SFW that has you confused."

Okydoky. Your right. I totally agree. This just proves all the rest of the tags are an underpriced welfare handout.

"Just as entitled as the next guy for a public resource as long as I am willing to pay the app and license fee and participate in the open and public draw with equal chances as everyone else."

And you are just as entitled as anyone else to bid on one at auction. Good job. Now don't you like honesty?
 
Does anyone else have a problem how they don't do the drawings live? What percentage of people profiting from SFW draw the tags?
 
>Does anyone else have a problem
>how they don't do the
>drawings live? What percentage of
>people profiting from SFW draw
>the tags?

It is live. Anyone can attend the public Expo drawing. I did a few years ago. Seemed pretty straight forward and completely fair. They even explain the process if you want to hear it and ask. Was attended by many from the public, SFW/MDF, DWR, and third party processing company reps.
 
I Witnessed the Full Curl Drawing!

Did Not Witness the EXPO Drawing!

Still Wondering how that many Outa-Staters Pulled that many Tags!







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
The draw is held at the dwr office.But does sfw have something in the drawing software that gives a person better odds if they have bought the the full package?The more you spend the better your odds would be.they could write the drawing software anyway they would like in there basement.If somebody is going go to the expense of to come to the expo from out of state whats a few hundred extra to buy the full package.It would be interesting to know if the people that have drawn multiple tags on different years if they bought the full package every time.
 
>The draw is held at the
>dwr office.But does sfw have
>something in the drawing software
>that gives a person better
>odds if they have bought
>the the full package?The more
>you spend the better your
>odds would be.they could write
>the drawing software anyway they
>would like in there basement.If
>somebody is going go to
>the expense of to come
>to the expo from out
>of state whats a few
>hundred extra to buy the
>full package.It would be interesting
>to know if the people
>that have drawn multiple tags
>on different years if they
>bought the full package every
>time.

Keep grabbing at straws...
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-19 AT 07:42PM (MST)[p]>The draw is held at the
>dwr office.But does sfw have
>something in the drawing software
>that gives a person better
>odds if they have bought
>the the full package?The more
>you spend the better your
>odds would be.they could write
>the drawing software anyway they
>would like in there basement.If
>somebody is going go to
>the expense of to come
>to the expo from out
>of state whats a few
>hundred extra to buy the
>full package.It would be interesting
>to know if the people
>that have drawn multiple tags
>on different years if they
>bought the full package every
>time.

SFW doesn't run the Expo draw. A third party consulting company runs it, audited by the DWR and all parties involved. The DWR is very much involved in the drawing process related to the Expo tags.

Sorry but after witnessing it, asking all the same questions, etc. I didn't feel there was anything corrupt with it. I will continue to apply. I would suggest anyone who really wants to know to show up and see for themselves or call the division and ask the questions.

PS each tag is like a ?mini draw? with odds being number of tags per number of entrants. Nothing increases odds per tag. Obviously putting in for more of them increases chances to draw an Expo tag simply because your name is in more ?mini draws?.
 
>>Does anyone else have a problem
>>how they don't do the
>>drawings live? What percentage of
>>people profiting from SFW draw
>>the tags?
>
>It is live. Anyone can attend
>the public Expo drawing. I
>did a few years ago.
>Seemed pretty straight forward and
>completely fair. They even explain
>the process if you want
>to hear it and ask.
>Was attended by many from
>the public, SFW/MDF, DWR, and
>third party processing company reps.
>

Where can I get info on how to attend next year?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-19
>AT 07:42?PM (MST)
>
>>The draw is held at the
>>dwr office.But does sfw have
>>something in the drawing software
>>that gives a person better
>>odds if they have bought
>>the the full package?The more
>>you spend the better your
>>odds would be.they could write
>>the drawing software anyway they
>>would like in there basement.If
>>somebody is going go to
>>the expense of to come
>>to the expo from out
>>of state whats a few
>>hundred extra to buy the
>>full package.It would be interesting
>>to know if the people
>>that have drawn multiple tags
>>on different years if they
>>bought the full package every
>>time.
>
>SFW doesn't run the Expo draw.
>A third party consulting company
>runs it, audited by the
>DWR and all parties involved.
>The DWR is very much
>involved in the drawing process
>related to the Expo tags.
>
>
>Sorry but after witnessing it, asking
>all the same questions, etc.
>I didn't feel there was
>anything corrupt with it. I
>will continue to apply. I
>would suggest anyone who really
>wants to know to show
>up and see for themselves
>or call the division and
>ask the questions.
>
>PS each tag is like a
>?mini draw? with odds being
>number of tags per number
>of entrants. Nothing increases odds
>per tag. Obviously putting in
>for more of them increases
>chances to draw an Expo
>tag simply because your name
>is in more ?mini draws?.
>

Oddnut1 is correct about the 3rd party. But the 3rd party guy is hired by SFW and works/worked out of his basement.

DO I think its rigged, hmmm, not really. But like others have mentioned, that software can be written any way they want it. They have too much invested to cheat on it, but it always does seem fishy.
 
$FW has taken more hunters out of the hills than any anti-hunting org.
Fact




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-19 AT 02:16PM (MST)[p]Robiland-

Didn?t you draw this year? Must be rigged! ;)

SFW/MDF hire the consultant company and the restrictions on who they can hire are tight. Some programmer off the street isn't getting that contract and it's still audited by the state. At least it's a Utah company instead of our very own state draw done in Nevada! I'm a programmer/software developer for a living and writing that into code that's audited... just isn't that easy, I'm sorry, it's just not. It's audited by the IT division too plus others.

After seeing the process, asking deep about the code and random processes/generators... I personally don't think any of it's rigged but it gives people stuff to talk/worry about in the off-season I guess.
 
Wiley,
You mean mismanagement of our deer herds took more people out of the hills than any other anti hunting group...as well as opened the doors to groups like the SFW. That would a complete factual statement.

As would the statement that, arrogance of several bow hunting leadership groups cost archers the ability to hunt state wide when Opt 2 was passed.
 
>Wiley,
>You mean mismanagement of our deer
>herds took more people out
>of the hills than any
>other anti hunting group...as well
>as opened the doors to
>groups like the SFW.
>That would a complete factual
>statement.
>
>As would the statement that,
>arrogance of several bow hunting
>leadership groups cost archers the
>ability to hunt state wide
>when Opt 2 was passed.
>


73 Brings up a point. Option 2 deer plan. This plan was supported by under 14% of Utah's hunters per RAC vote. Option 2 had the support of only one sportsman's group, wasn't MDF, RMEF, UBA or back then BOU. This plan has done nothing to grow deer herds, it was intended to increase buck to doe ratio's and turn general season units in to limited entry units.
If the intent is to grow more deer, buck management is pretty much irrelevant after 16 b2 D ratio is hit. If your intent is to grow more TARGETS then opt 2 is for you. The cost is over regulation and reduced hunter numbers for a plan that could end in disaster over 1 bad winter.
SFW supported this plan.

SFW also ended the best archery elk hunt in the western U.S. AR-301

SFW has gerrymandered the RAC / WB process so that only one philosophy is relevant.

We've gone from 250K hunters to under 100K with no results. Not killing buck deer isn't the answer.








"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
M73 said: ?The arrogance of several bow hunting leadership groups cost archers the ability to hunt state wide when Opt 2 was passed.?

This statement reminds me of when Don Peay try to blame SFW?s support of HB141 on greedy fly fisherman. Don told KUTV News: ?This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy."

If you or your group is going to advocate for a particular position then you should have the courage to stand up and own that position. Don?t blame it on others who are adversely affected by the position you advocated for. We all know which conservation group and individuals pushed for Option 2 and HB141.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
The lottery has been rigged before so I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for someone to get by an expo auction.
 
Hawkeye,
Again my comment was fact. I'm not surprised that you don't understand that. As you've shown in the past you were late to the party and thought you knew everything. Or maybe I'm wrong...were you at the Green River RAC meeting the previous year before Opt 2 was put through?
But seriously please tell me who and how Opt 2 got passed. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
 

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