Would it be legal???

[KBKILLER]

first , i refuse to call them "ungulates" your not in class there buddy. if your trying to make your case to average american people, can we call them elk and deer?

second, i really hope your not trying to compare are elk and deer herds in oregon the the vast , millions upon millions, wildebeest that roam right with the african lion, where they lay because they are so stuffed in the middle of the herds untill they get the erge to go get another. your comparing apples to oranges, we don have the "plethora" of game to start with.

also if we are using discovery channels,"wild africa" as a base to are game management, that explains alot. i was hoping are management team wasn't basing their stratagies on the friday night, put on by the same group that put on "whale wars", reality t.v. show that can be edited to show what ever side of managment they want to look sucsessfull.

 

[Teeb]

>the only minor difference i see in your statement and are
>wildlife management is:
>1st: a logger will get the dam trees on the ground, cause that is his job.
>
>2nd: a mechanic will fix the dam car, cause that is his job
>

True enough KB ..... if they are allowed. Every occupation has been complicated by special interest groups, rules & regulations, and lawsuits.

The loggers will fall the trees, that is if they can get past the environmental groups, the Endangered Species Act, the Clean Water Act, the Oregon Forest Practices rules, and on, and on, and on. Remember what happened once the Biscuit Fire in the Kalmiopsis Wilderness was out? Logging was repeatedly blocked by legal actions. Remember the Spotted Owl? A lot of out-of-work loggers and mill workers do!

And the mechanic. He deals with rules everyday regarding vehicle repairs. Things such as emissions laws, hazardous chemicals, banned materials, waste disposal. His job is made more technical and difficult with each passing day.

The point is this: Managing wildlife is not easy, simple, or without contreversy. The folks that try to do a good job are constantly battling with lawsuits, rules & regulations, injunctions, special interest groups, politics, and so on. The focus of wildlife managers are free-ranging and dynamic populations of animals --- facing a myriad of assaults on their ability to survive.

Biologists have to be ready to back up every biological conclusion with facts, not speculation. Do they make mistakes - undoubtly yes. Do the majority of them try their best - undoubtly yes. Are decisions made by their bosses (commission/politicians) sometimes contrary to good biology - undoubtly yes.

IMHO if the field biologists were allowed to do their job, the wildife situation would be totally different.



P.S. That was a nice set of elk sheds you found last year.

 

[gooseslayer]

you know what fixes the problem with wolves eating cattle in feedlots? Nightvision scopes and 6.5 x 284 Normas....done deal...works in Idaho, you Oregon boys might try it.

 

[Hiker of the Woods]

KBKILLER,

So why have there not been any GPS coordinates that show any elk killed by the wolves? Why are the elk hanging out by the wolves den? Why do the wolves pass the elk and head for ranches to kill livestock and leave GPS coordinates on those kills?

 

[KBKILLER]

lets bring up your I-fish ( i must be really desperate)

didn't a guys just post a picture of a dead moose this week, with NOTHING BUT wolf track and scat around it?

and didn't you instantly take the path of trying everything you could to discreddit the wolves from haveing anything whatsoever to do with the kill? basically saying telling him if he didn't watch them do it, he cant say it was the wolves?

now you telling me the wolves completly left the elk and deer alone, which i would bet you that you couldn't find another pack in america that lives with deer and elk, that dont have to kill some to live. it's what they are supposed to to.

maybe if you and odf&w weren't spending all your time trying to deny or discredit what the wolves are doing we could start a management plan for them.

 

[KBKILLER]

TEEB: your right, they do have their hands tied. no question about that. but there are alot of issues that is just simple managment that they are not doing.

running dogs-- that was not under ODF&W, but i'm amazed that this was even up for vote. that is game management, they HAVE TO kill so many lions for a balance in the deer herds. they can step up and let paid people run lions with their dogs, but cant let people pay them to do the same.

why an "increase" in deer tags?

why are there still doe tags in many eastern oregon unit?

it's a western oregon attitude that is running the managment of this state. and they are repeatedly missing the boat.

if you were to put a serious PRO-HUNTER in the same position, they wouldn't be able to open up a mass slaughter on wolves and cats, but i'll bet they could do a hell of alot more than what is being done right now.

 

[Teeb]

>lets bring up your I-fish ( i must be really desperate)
>
>didn't a guys just post a picture of a dead moose this week, with NOTHING BUT wolf track and scat around it?
>
>and didn't you instantly take the path of trying everything you could to discreddit the wolves from haveing anything whatsoever to do with the kill? basically saying telling him if he didn't watch them do it, he cant say it was the wolves?



KB - While I think this post was directed toward BS, I looked up the iFish moose thread so everyone could understand what you are saying. Here's the first two paragraphs of the original iFish post.

"Recently while hunting with friends and accompanying my son on his first spring bear hunt in the Wenaha Unit I discovered what was left of one of the transient moose self-populating the NE corner of Oregon. It was clearly a bull moose (note the pedicels). There was also clear evidence the wolves that we knew were in the immediate area had fed on it. It was our understanding that ODFW was attempting to trap and collar a wolf from this group to establish GPS tracking of their movements and activities.

Whether this moose was a victim of their predation or a victim of the parasitic carotoid artery disease that has befallen a few of the 40 to 70 moose presently in residence was not determinable. Whatever the case with the level of sign in the immediate area of the site it was clear that at the very least they had participated in eating it. However, in contrast to an elk carcass site we found nearby that was covered up in bear scat, there was no bear sign present around the moose."

So .... the hunter himself, who was actually there and took pictures, could not positively conclude what killed the moose.

Teeb

 

[Teeb]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-10 AT 09:43AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-10 AT 09:40?AM (MST)

KB - You might be surprised to know that I agree with much of what you say.

"running dogs-- that was not under ODF&W, but i'm amazed that this was even up for vote. that is game management"

I agree - Biology should never be up to popular vote.

"why an "increase" in deer tags?'

Seems strange to me too. But I can't say because I didn't attend the meetings.

"why are there still doe tags in many eastern oregon unit?"

Same answer - seems strange, but I don't know.

"it's a western oregon attitude that is running the managment of this state. and they are repeatedly missing the boat."

The politics involved never ceases to amaze me. I don't like it either.

"if you were to put a serious PRO-HUNTER in the same position, they wouldn't be able to open up a mass slaughter on wolves and cats, but i'll bet they could do a hell of alot more than what is being done right now."

I'm not convinced of that. Why? Because of all of the legal crap, all the special interest groups, all the outside influence that controls the decision making process.



For instance, take the issue of breeding pairs of wolves. A certain number of breeding pairs is necessary for delisting in Oregon. The bios aren't stupid as some have suggested. They know wolves are breeding. But knowing it, and proving it are two different things. ODFW has to prove the breeding pairs exist. The fact that wolf numbers are increasing is not enough. ODFW has to prove to their opponenets that the wolves are breeding IN OREGON, and not just walking/swimming over from Idaho or somewhere else.

KB - I'm no wolf fan. I'm no cougar fan. I don't hate them, I just want them controlled like everything else. As you know, we have altered our environment tremendously. Humans have impacted every aspect of life, including the interrelationships of wildlife populations. We can't properly manage one type of animal, without managing other species that contribute to their mortality. Whether it's wolves or cougars or sea lions or sportsmen - if you want viable game and fish populations, you have to control the things that kill animals. That's the simple part. The hard part is actually getting it done.

 

[KBKILLER]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-10 AT 09:49AM (MST)[p]yes, but do you notice that instead even questioning if the wolves had anything to do with it, the absolute first option was to discredit the wolves?
we could always try and find an arguement as to why i couldn't be the wolves, but we also have to look at that being a VERY possible option too. we can only turn are heads so long.

i would have no problem whatsoever if the reply was based on there being 2 options. 1. being desease and 2. being wolves.

there is no for sure way to tell what it was, but based on the information givin, wolves are a very strong possibilty. and if you look at the history in montans,idaho and wyoming, it is very likely the wolves could have a part in it.


BS's first question was " what information do you have that makes you think wolves ate on the carcass?" thus trying to put doubt that the wolves were ever around.

which is why i ask on this thread " what information do you have, or are lacking, that says the wolves are leaving the elk alone?"

if we as hunters need to have video proof before ODF&W will admit to the wolves preying on game, their going to have to have a little more details to prove there is no confilction between to two themselves.

i dont believe that is too much to ask, is it? surely you cant expect us to go with the "if ODF&W says so, it must be true" theory can you? sitting around, not questioning why things are being run the way they are, is why were in the state we are in now. you can expect ODF&W to start getting alot more heat on their managment plans now more than ever. it is time we / they start a more aggresive approach.

 

[Hiker of the Woods]

>LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-10
>AT 09:49?AM (MST)
>
>yes, but do you notice that
>instead even questioning if the
>wolves had anything to do
>with it, the absolute first
>option was to discredit the
>wolves?

>there is no for sure way
>to tell what it was,
>but based on the information
>givin, wolves are a very
>strong possibilty. and if you
>look at the history in
> montans,idaho and wyoming, it
>is very likely the wolves
>could have a part in
>it.

>BS's first question was " what
>information do you have that
>makes you think wolves ate
>on the carcass?" thus trying
>to put doubt that the
>wolves were ever around.


I think I did question and not discredit the option of wolves killing the moose. The title of the thread had wolves in it, but the member had no proof wolves even killed the moose. Scat around a pile of bones does not mean wolves killed that animal, but it also doesn't mean they didn't kill that animal. Thanks for twisting my words into whatever you wanted them to be.

Yes it could have been wolves, parasites, poacher, etc... we will never know. Not enough of the animal let to figure that one out. I think you need to go read WY's Wolf Management Plan on pages 22 & 23. WY talks about their moose and how pregnancy rates have been the lowest in N.A. before wolves were reintroduced. Starvation was the primary source of adult female moose mortality from 1994-2001 and accounted for 57% of all known mortality. Wolf predation accounted for only 3%. Starvation also was a significant factor in reducing moose calf survival from an average of about 90% to nearly 10%. This data indicates a population under the influence of larger environmental and/or density dependent factors. Grizzly bear predation on moose is also talked about in the plan. So wolves are not as big of a problem for moose in WY compared to what they have been going through before wolf reintroduction all the way until now.

 

[Teeb]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-10 AT 12:50PM (MST)[p]KB - to answer a few of your points in your last post.

"i would have no problem whatsoever if the reply was based on there being 2 options. 1. being desease and 2. being wolves."

The original post on iFish stated that very thing in the first sentence of the second paragraph. However, despite the lack of evidence, there may be more options -- like cougars, an injury, poachers, etc ...... But I'd agree that wolves are a VERY viable explaination.

"BS's first question was " what information do you have that makes you think wolves ate on the carcass?" thus trying to put doubt that the wolves were ever around." I guess I interpreted that a little differently than you. Here's his quote: "What was your evidence that wolves fed on the moose? It looks pretty old." Was he trying to descredit the claim, or simply asking for more details? You may want to ask him.

"if we as hunters need to have video proof before ODF&W will admit to the wolves preying on game ... " WOW - I didn't know ODFW won't admit that wolves prey on game. Who, Where, When did ODFW say that? If that's true, it ain't good. Please provide details.

"surely you cant expect us to go with the "if ODF&W says so, it must be true" theory can you?" Nope, I would never expect that. To the contrary ---- I'm glad sportsmen are asking them questions, and demanding results. That's how we impact the process, and get changes made.

Teeb

 

[Teeb]

BS

Where do you find the time to read all the stuff that you provide links to? I'm amazed!!

 

[NASCAR88]

Blacktail, you need to be out looking for employment. You have way to much time on your hands. LOL

 

[BlueMountainAdventures]

Well guys.....good luck with this argument. I am done posting on this post. Waste of time.....

 

[Hiker of the Woods]

>BS
>
>Where do you find the time
>to read all the stuff
>that you provide links to?
> I'm amazed!!

I know there are people that don't think I read the information in the links that I post. I don't have a TV or spend any time running around town at bars, shopping, and so on. I work part time, go to school full time, and spend every free second in-between reading all the information within those links. Sleeping only a few hours a night also gives me quite a bit of time to do all that reading. I have never claimed to know everything and will try to continue to learn the rest of my life. The links in my threads go to things I find interesting and think maybe someone else out there may feel the same and enjoy or learn something new from them. It is also very interesting to hear everyone's comments on those articles and issues that may have never crossed my mind.

Thanks for your insight on wildlife management. I have to agree with everything that you have said, but would like to start another thread on why agencies have doe hunts (This was something you brought up in one of your posts, right?). There has been some studies on doe harvest and most of the U.S. in not against it, except for the West. It is a little funny that some of the western hunters don't care about or speak as negatively on cow hunts compared to doe hunts (my dad being one of those). There are numerous problems with our mule deer and yes tag numbers has been one of them. An example as why buck only hunts are not good would be to have people think about areas(units) they have been in and they can see 50-100 deer a year with almost all of them being does and fawns with only a few spikes or other bucks. Leads to a very low buck:doe ratio.

 

[KBKILLER]

i agree, it's time to put this guy to bed.

but hey i think this was the longest post on here that didn't turn out to be a total bashing right?
TEEB: you make a good arguement, i did inerpret the post differently though. i do believe it was more of a way to discredit the wolves vs. just getting info. who know though, sometimes it's hard to tell what someone is trying to get across on a keyboard.

i still think if we just killed them all it would be cheaper and better management for are deer and elk herds

BS: doe hunts? uh oh, here we go again j/k

 

[bull_n_rut]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-10 AT 05:11PM (MST)[p]"Well guys.....good luck with this argument. I am done posting on this post. Waste of time..... "

No Chit, BS always has another line of BS. I think after hearing his thoughts we are seeing how bad our school system is! Lets start that doe and cow thread. Makes sense to have those hunts too when our herds are obsolete! x(

 

[Teeb]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-10 AT 05:43PM (MST)[p]>i agree, it's time to put this guy to bed.
>
>but hey i think this was the longest post on here that didn't turn out to be a total bashing right?
>
>TEEB: you make a good arguement, i did inerpret the post differently though. i do believe it was more of a way to discredit the wolves vs. just getting info. who know though, sometimes it's hard to tell what someone is trying to get across on a keyboard.
>
i still think if we just killed them all it would be cheaper and better management for are deer and elk herds
>
>BS: doe hunts? uh oh, here we go again j/k

Ok guys, I'll quit this one too. It was fun though, and relatively civil as well! KB - I'll leave you with one last thought. And bear in mind, I agree that we need to do something about predators.

Imagine you are in court, or in front of legislature. And you are trying to justify the killing of predators. Some attorney for "the other side" asks you why you want to kill all the predators.

You reply in so many words - "So we can save our deer and elk"

He asks why, and you reply something like - "So that there are sustainable populations of deer and elk."

And he replies - "So .... what you're saying is you want to kill all predators, so that you can have more deer and elk, so that you can kill them too?"

At that point your face could get red - either from embarassment or anger. Not a pretty scenario, is it? But it's one the antis could use.

Anyway - good day sir, and thanks for your time.

 

[muleyman]

WTF happened to this post??? What did it turn into? WOW

muleyman

 

[Hiker of the Woods]

>WTF happened to this post???
>What did it turn into?
>WOW
>
>muleyman

Things got a little crazy. Sorry for the take over. You missed out on a lot of fun. It normally seems a little slow on Oregon's MM and then this all of a sudden happened.

 

[KBKILLER]

hey MULEYMAN, your the one who put the thought of me shooting wolves in my head, dont blam me, it's all your fault...... bwaaahaaahaaa it was a fun little thread we had going, and it's haveing trouble dying. i think it's the elk gods saying "keep it going, your saving are lives" whatever

 

[Teeb]

>WTF happened to this post??? What did it turn into? WOW
>muleyman

Somewhere back a ways I actually tried to respond to your original post. Really - I did! It's true!

T