Wyo to target elk, large carnivores to aid reeling mule deer

Reduction of elk for competition and a reduction of predators both sound like a good start. Not sure why they wouldn't also focus on coyotes here as well, though??

There are a lot more factors at play for the mule deer decline, but it's good to see they are finally looking for ways to curb the decline.
 
SS! said:
My thought is how many mule deer are killed by hunters in wy per year? No one knows…
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According to Director Nesvik, the contractor WY uses to estimate the harvest numbers tells them their harvest estimates are 90% accurate (+/- a 5% margin for error)…

Horniac
 
I think predators have a minimal impact on the deer herd there are only ever as many predators as the land can sustain. They equal themselves out to the amount of available food pretty well accept wolves in my opinion. And the predator harvest here is already pretty dang heavy it hasn't made much of a difference that I've seen. Again all opinion
 
The 90% accuracy rate seems to be a real stretch. In the Sunlight Crandall area the migratory general hunt season dates were cut by another week starting in 2019. The first year of the general season, G&F had a check station on the Chief Joseph Highway. The biologist told me that the checked harvest consisted of almost exclusively yearling bucks. Fast forward to the 2021 when no check station was opened on The Chief Joseph Highway. At a meeting in Powell, Wyoming after the 2021 season, the same biologist informed the public that the 2021harvest was mostly mature bucks. The 2021 season had the mildest weather in many years. I only saw a single mature mule deer buck during the season. I harvested him.

Sunlight Crandall is loaded with predators. I see wolf sign all along the mule deer migration corridors. The wolf harvest quota is low. From my observation, the lion populations in that area are high. I know that at least one hound hunter who guides for lions stays out of this area because he doesn’t want his dogs killed by wolves.

I am an advocate for mandatory harvest reporting. The harvest estimates are just that. In migratory hunt units they are really suspect. The deer are moving from YNP to their winter range. Movement is controlled by weather and by the length of daylight. Estimates made by a couple of G&F people, who are the same individuals who set the seasons, seems suspicious to me. Just Sayin...my
 
Bookhead said:
I think predators have a minimal impact on the deer herd there are only ever as many predators as the land can sustain. They equal themselves out to the amount of available food pretty well accept wolves in my opinion. And the predator harvest here is already pretty dang heavy it hasn't made much of a difference that I've seen. Again all opinion
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Spoken like a true lion hunter, but consider this:

We all laugh around here about the G&F collaring lions to see if there is something to the big cat killing CWD positive deer. Over the last few years, based on this study, it has become blatantly obvious that the number one cause of deer mortality in this area is the lion. With lower than objective numbers, every mortality is that much more meaningful to herd numbers and predators aren't carrying an antlered only tag.

As far as carrying capacity, those lions don't just up and pull stakes when they can't find deer, they kill elk calves.
 
jm77 said:
Spoken like a true lion hunter, but consider this:

We all laugh around here about the G&F collaring lions to see if there is something to the big cat killing CWD positive deer. Over the last few years, based on this study, it has become blatantly obvious that the number one cause of deer mortality in this area is the lion. With lower than objective numbers, every mortality is that much more meaningful to herd numbers and predators aren't carrying an antlered only tag.

As far as carrying capacity, those lions don't just up and pull stakes when they can't find deer, they kill elk calves.
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I'd say the number one mortality is the rifle hunter with a general tag. Lions have always been around even back when there were deer everywhere. The season is open year around with an unlimited quota what more can they do? Time to manage hunters.
 
This will lead to drastically reduced elk numbers, and a deer herd that will glean zero benefit from it.
 
Bookhead said:
I'd say the number one mortality is the rifle hunter with a general tag. Lions have always been around even back when there were deer everywhere. The season is open year around with an unlimited quota what more can they do? Time to manage hunters.
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Allow lions to be trapped.

Lots of lion hunters with hounds rarely, if ever, kill cats.

I might be tempted to drag out the #4's and a handful of snares myself...
 
Buzz H is right. Allow lions to be trapped. Hound hunters seldom kill lions. They high grade and take only the largest toms. They let lots of immature toms and females go. The thrill is in treeing the lions. My granddaughter has hounds and has been known to tree lots of lions. She has only harvested one that I know of.just sayin...mh
 
BuzzH said:
Allow lions to be trapped.

Lots of lion hunters with hounds rarely, if ever, kill cats.

I might be tempted to drag out the #4's and a handful of snares myself...
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They do trap them on the reservation their deer numbers still aren't great anymore either
 
How ma
BuzzH said:
Allow lions to be trapped.

Lots of lion hunters with hounds rarely, if ever, kill cats.

I might be tempted to drag out the #4's and a handful of snares myself...
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How would you trap a cat? Set steel on their tracks cause they'll be back through rite? Sounds like a great way to catch some dogs to me then there's a whole new battle between trappers and hunters. Bad idea
 
Bookhead said:
How ma
How would you trap a cat? Set steel on their tracks cause they'll be back through rite? Sounds like a great way to catch some dogs to me then there's a whole new battle between trappers and hunters. Bad idea
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They aren't any tougher to trap than bobcats. In fact they're a pain in the ass when you trap bobcats.
 
BuzzH said:
They aren't any tougher to trap than bobcats. In fact they're a pain in the ass when you trap bobcats.
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I'm not saying they are hard to trap. I'm saying they're gonna be hard to trap without catching a bunch of dogs
 
Bookhead said:
I'm not saying they are hard to trap. I'm saying they're gonna be hard to trap without catching a bunch of dogs
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Oh bull...I trapped and snared bobcats around lion hounds for 15 years in Montana.

Know how many lion hounds I caught?

ZERO.
 
Bookhead said:
You start trapping lions and lame up or snare a 5k$ dog or two I can guarantee ya your gonna hear about it
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That's tough...hound hunters don't have a monopoly on hunting lions. There's risks involved when you run hounds.

Maybe if they started killing some lions, folks wouldn't be talking about making trapping them legal.

Are you saying trapping and snaring bobcats should be illegal because a hound might get pinched? I hear these same things from irresponsible dog owners and bird hunters. Most houndsmen I knew also trapped. Didn't know one that didn't know how to set a trap or get a hound out of one. Most lion hunters I knew ran bobcats too.

And the number of lions that hit my bobcats sets was really high.

Busted up lots of #2 and #2.5 coil springs...but from what I've heard, they don't break many snares, alledgedly.
 
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BuzzH said:
That's tough...hound hunters don't have a monopoly on hunting lions. There's risks involved when you run hounds.

Maybe if they started killing some lions, folks wouldn't be talking about making trapping them legal.

Are you saying trapping and snaring bobcats should be illegal because a hound might get pinched? I hear these same things from irresponsible dog owners and bird hunters. Most houndsmen I knew also trapped. Didn't know one that didn't know how to set a trap or get a hound out of one. Most lion hunters I knew ran bobcats too.

And the number of lions that hit my bobcats sets was really high.

Busted up lots of #2 and #2.5 coil springs...but from what I've heard, they don't break many snares, alledgedly.
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With the breakaways that are required here in wyo I'm guessing a big one would breakout
 
BuzzH said:
That's tough...hound hunters don't have a monopoly on hunting lions. There's risks involved when you run hounds.

Maybe if they started killing some lions, folks wouldn't be talking about making trapping them legal.

Are you saying trapping and snaring bobcats should be illegal because a hound might get pinched? I hear these same things from irresponsible dog owners and bird hunters. Most houndsmen I knew also trapped. Didn't know one that didn't know how to set a trap or get a hound out of one. Most lion hunters I knew ran bobcats too.

And the number of lions that hit my bobcats sets was really high.

Busted up lots of #2 and #2.5 coil springs...but from what I've heard, they don't break many snares, alledgedly.
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There's been 316 lions killed since September mostly spot and stalk im guessing ?
 
So Wyoming has decided it's deer hunting sucks, it's going to kill off what mature deer they do have because "CWD", and now, screw up their elk hunting as well?

So make hunting suck evenly across the board?
 
Maybe they should allow elk trapping since most bull hunters are cherry picking and their getting over populated use some power line cable for a snare hell that outta do it
 
Bookhead said:
Maybe they should allow elk trapping since most bull hunters are cherry picking and their getting over populated use some power line cable for a snare hell that outta do it
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When I lion hunted one of my dogs was caught in a foothold and another in a snare. Unfortunately the snared dog died. In no way could we tell that trapper he couldn't trap there, but if we knew he had moved into the area, we would have avoided it or run the track out further to avoid the traps. Two legal methods of harvest, one doesn't trump the other.
 
jm77 said:
When I lion hunted one of my dogs was caught in a foothold and another in a snare. Unfortunately the snared dog died. In no way could we tell that trapper he couldn't trap there, but if we knew he had moved into the area, we would have avoided it or run the track out further to avoid the traps. Two legal methods of harvest, one doesn't trump the other.
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Why start a war between trappers and hunters that doesn't need started. trapping lions won't bring the deer back.
 
Trapping and hound hunting are both highly controversial these days no need to put either of them in the spot light or its gonna end up like California where you can't do either one. good luck killing any amount of lions then.
 
Bookhead said:
Trapping and hound hunting are both highly controversial these days no need to put either of them in the spot light or its gonna end up like California where you can't do either one. good luck killing any amount of lions then.
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I get all this, but the truth is there needs to be extreme measures in areas like 66 where mule deer numbers are so low that lion kills truly have an affect on the herd. If and when we get some kind of recovery, lion harvest could be curtailed. We will never kill off all the cats, but mule deer are struggling and it's not because of hunters killing bucks.
 
jm77 said:
I get all this, but the truth is there needs to be extreme measures in areas like 66 where mule deer numbers are so low that lion kills truly have an affect on the herd. If and when we get some kind of recovery, lion harvest could be curtailed. We will never kill off all the cats, but mule deer are struggling and it's not because of hunters killing bucks.
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There's an easy low impact option to find out. Shut down the deer hunting for a couple years and see if numbers improve. I'm not convinced the majority of cats in this area choose deer as a first choice honestly. I think most have adapted to other food sources. Hell the deer numbers are poor enough most would starve if all they hunted was deer.
 
Bookhead said:
There's an easy low impact option to find out. Shut down the deer hunting for a couple years and see if numbers improve. I'm not convinced the majority of cats in this area choose deer as a first choice honestly. I think most have adapted to other food sources. Hell the deer numbers are poor enough most would starve if all they hunted was deer.
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Now you are falling for the notion that shooting bucks hurts deer populations?
 
jm77 said:
Now you are falling for the notion that shooting bucks hurts deer populations?
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I believe if the number of mature deer is too low and all the does aren't getting bred I'd think it could hurt the population yes. And I know it only takes one buck to breed so many does and whatever else they say. But ranchers don't keep just one bull around either so that's pretty much the extent of my little knowledge
 
BuzzH said:
That's pretty much what I've been coming up with...

The deer got a one year pass from CWD control.
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So those deer seasons are gonna get shot down for this year at least ? I heard it was but I seen they didn’t change it yet on there proposed regs? Glad to hear it if they are shut down!!
 
90% of the problem is predation . Oregon is a perfect example.

Before bear and lion hunting with dogs was banned in '94 we had deer number that were very respectable. in the 60's we had overgrazing by cattle and sheep but with the sheep came extreme predator control by counts trappers using traps and 1080. the deer numbers were nothing short of insanely high.

Now we have deer numbers so low they should be listed on the ESA and cat and cyote numbers off the chart. wolves are becoming a problem but not a factor in most units yet.

So far fewer tags, far less grazing, no severe winterkill in decades and no deer. predation is the only factor that's worse now than the hay day of OR mule deer hunting. as far as I'm concerned it's case closed the only question is what are we going to do about it ? with our laws the options are limited, with most other deer states it's just a matter of choices.
 
Mountain lions and coyotes have decimated deer herds in the lower Rocky Mountains of NM. We attempt to shoot every coyote we come across and then some. On the Ranch when I was a kid we used to run Greyhounds on coyotes, that was a lot of fun.
 
Good start would be lifting quotas on mt lions, especially in areas that are mostly private.
Cat guys fill quotas pretty fast in some areas and when problem cats move in after quotas are filled we have no way to take them.

Would be real nice to be able to trap them . They will investigate bobcat sets, we've had to pull sets because of mt lion activity. Thankfully haven't had to release one yet.

Trappers and houndsmen need to work together for the safety of the dogs somehow. The dogs deserve it.
 
wytex said:
Good start would be lifting quotas on mt lions, especially in areas that are mostly private.
Cat guys fill quotas pretty fast in some areas and when problem cats move in after quotas are filled we have no way to take them.

Would be real nice to be able to trap them . They will investigate bobcat sets, we've had to pull sets because of mt lion activity. Thankfully haven't had to release one yet.

Trappers and houndsmen need to work together for the safety of the dogs somehow. The dogs deserve it.
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Why the focus on lifting quotas in areas that are mostly private? If the quotas are not getting met why would they need to be lifted?

Why should land status (public or private) determine how many lions we take?
 
The quotas are getting filled early in season before problem cats start showing up around wintering deer in the areas I am talking about.
Seems to me private land areas can limit the number of houndsmen based on access they get, public lands get hunted by non commercial houndsmen and outfitters who are limited by permit. Non commercial houndsmen are not limited on public grounds except by quotas on the mt lion take.

We had a mt lion move this past winter to our trapping area and wintering deer area on private property we trap. We had to modify our trapping routine and could not pursue the cat because the quota was filled by early January.

Maybe my point was not written well but quotas are getting filled before the big cats show up around the wintering deer herds in the area we trap and hunt deer. When you find kills, tracks and actually see the mt lions and can't do anything other than try to haze them out of your area it is frustrating.

Frankly I wish we had a couple of good hounds, watching them work is just neat and they are great dogs. My hats off to those that raise and hunt good cat dogs.
 
Thanks for the clarification. If the quota is getting filled early it likely wouldn’t hurt to raise it a few. I’ve never really dug into how they determine quota.
 
Bookhead said:
Two because of ranchers is my guess and one because of close proximity to a residential area another guess
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In the G&Fs own words, unlimited quotas are because they don't want to manage lions in those areas. In those areas, the unlimited quota has no real affect on the lion population. Agreed?
 
mightyhunter said:
Buzz H is right. Allow lions to be trapped. Hound hunters seldom kill lions. They high grade and take only the largest toms. They let lots of immature toms and females go. The thrill is in treeing the lions. My granddaughter has hounds and has been known to tree lots of lions. She has only harvested one that I know of.just sayin...mh
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This is a true statement.
one way to help this is that every lion hunter needs to kill a lion at least every couple of years. If they go 3 years without killing a lion, they don't get a permit to run their dogs the next year.
 
SS! said:
Thanks for the clarification. If the quota is getting filled early it likely wouldn’t hurt to raise it a few. I’ve never really dug into how they determine quota.
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No need to dig to far, duh. Look at how the deer quotas are set.
 
elkantlers said:
This is a true statement.
one way to help this is that every lion hunter needs to kill a lion at least every couple of years. If they go 3 years without killing a lion, they don't get a permit to run their dogs the next year.
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I don't know any lion hunters that dont kill lions every year. Maybe not themselves but I don't know any that dont have other people kill them
 
If you're speaking on a yearly basis than 2 and one regularly does but I only know a few that regularly catch lions
 
These are the latest pretty balanced harvest I'd say

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I will try. I will say during these cycles i predominately hunted area 6 me and a couple buddys and we did target older males but there was and always will be a few guys that will kill whatever they catch and you'll see that in this data
 

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Obviously area 27 concerns me the most, and until recently the number of cats taken is not enough to make a difference in lion numbers. The numbers of deer in the corresponding deer area are so low, many cats are targeting elk calves, which in itself isn't all bad.
 
I think you will see a shift here though jeff allot of new guys coming around. Even saw some out of town guys show up once their quotas started to fill up. Not everyone is a selective cat hunter really only a couple are hard core selective I'd say
 
One other thing I would recommend is a pursuit season. If there was a pursuit season in areas after the quota was filled I think you'd see more quotas filled. You have to catch allot of lions to make good dogs and every houndsmen wants good dogs so they are more likely to let cats go to be able to chase them all season. They could even sell an additional pursuit licence or make it an incentive to recieve a pursuit tag after a regular tag is filled
 
The area I would like to see the quota increased or lifted also has no quota on black bears because they do not want them in the area. Why are mt lions so welcome then I would ask ?
I know at least 2 hunters that would take a female mt lion and have.
Pursuit season sounds interesting.
 
Area 6 used to have a quota of 21 lions it was reached one year and then 3 or 4 years following that was never reached again because in allot of people's opinion and mine is that was to many lions for the amount of area that most houndsmen can hunt and access the majority of winter. Believe it or not it's not easy to get permission to lion hunt especially on bigger places which you need to run a lion without tresspassing so we had the quota dropped to 15 and then it has finally started getting met so I'm sure they will raise it again now
 
Sounds like more access is opening up over there for cats then, maybe, if they raise the quota?
sent you a pm
 
Bookhead
They have done a lot of collaring studies in Utah fawns and seeing mortality and survival rates.
one year on the Cache unit out of 50 fawns, 49 died. about 30% coyote, 35 percent lion, 20 percent bobcats, and 15 percent winter kill, abandonment, malnourishment, etc.
Predators are a problem. female lions with Kittens are protected.
 
huntin50 said:
Bookhead
They have done a lot of collaring studies in Utah fawns and seeing mortality and survival rates.
one year on the Cache unit out of 50 fawns, 49 died. about 30% coyote, 35 percent lion, 20 percent bobcats, and 15 percent winter kill, abandonment, malnourishment, etc.
Predators are a problem. female lions with Kittens are protected.
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Sooo what you're saying is lions kill 5 more percent on that unit then coyotes which have no regulation or protection. Got it
 
The research over multiple years are saying we have poor fawn recruitment more from predator's. Cars and weather are also a problem. We try to fence highways and put up flashing lights in problem areas. To say that predators are not a big problem including lions is a lie in many areas across the west. In Utah we been trying to address this problem.
 
huntin50 said:
The research over multiple years are saying we have poor fawn recruitment more from predator's. Cars and weather are also a problem. We try to fence highways and put up flashing lights in problem areas. To say that predators are not a big problem including lions is a lie in many areas across the west. In Utah we been trying to address this problem.
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Absolutely we should eliminate all predators so there are plenty of forkhorns for the "meat hunters" to shoot.
 
huntin50 said:
The research over multiple years are saying we have poor fawn recruitment more from predator's. Cars and weather are also a problem. We try to fence highways and put up flashing lights in problem areas. To say that predators are not a big problem including lions is a lie in many areas across the west. In Utah we been trying to address this problem.
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Let’s ban weather (except rain) and give everyone a bike.
 
SS! said:
Let’s ban weather (except rain) and give everyone a bike.
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Yes great idea. Instead of managing harvest which is really the only thing a game department can control is hunter harvest, we will just spend millions and go in circles for decades ?
 
After no more deer die from cars or lions or cwd I wonder what will be the next thing they blame it on so they can still justify selling as many tags as they want
 
cheatgrass. Not only does it kill deer it hides mountain lions. @jims brings the slideshow.

Kill the cheatgrass and the lions can’t hide. Mule deer for days after that. Oprah will be handing out 200” bucks to everyone! You get a 200” buck! And you get a 200” buck! You! And You!
 

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