Wyoming G and H non resident tags cut again

Paid vacation? As a contractor l, I have never had paid vacation. But I do work Saturdays and at least some Sundays all year to be able to take off in the last three months. I can safely say I spend way too much time out. Didn't keep track this year, but one fall I spent 42 nights in a bag. Plus motels. Plus a lot of days out where I slept at home. Plus some nights in those cushy cabins up the canyon. But I do understand that you don't know me. I do it for fun. And even occasionally kill something.
 
BrianID said:
I don’t get any paid time off but I take time off for hunting. In 2023 I took about 7 weeks off work to go hunting.
There are many people like you and me that take significant time to hunt or scout.
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Not that many.
 
I usually take 5-6 weeks off every fall for out of state hunts. Then do 3 and 4 day weekends for in state hunts. Once several years ago I drew several tags with back to back season dates and spent seven weeks straight living out of a one man tent. It felt REALLY good to sleep in a bed again after that. I’m VERY fortunate to have a wife that understands this crazy passion that we all have for hunting.

I have a few friends that are semi retired and work January - August and don’t work during the fall at all.

My son is only a few years into his career but is at a company that utilizes comp time. He puts in 50-60 hour weeks during spring/summer and so by the time fall comes around he has 8-10 weeks of vacation time built up between comp and regular vacation.
 
Since we are on the subject who’s putting in for G and who is putting in for H? Is Wyoming like New Mexico and looks at all your choices or just first choice? I think ima flip a coin to figure out which to put as my first choice
 
Rie bread said:
Since we are on the subject who’s putting in for G and who is putting in for H? Is Wyoming like New Mexico and looks at all your choices or just first choice? I think ima flip a coin to figure out which to put as my first choice
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For NR, Wyoming looks at your first choice and applies preference points. Those that don't draw on preference points then get thrown into the random draw tag portion. Then after a few of those lucky ones get drawn, your second choice will then be looked at. Usually not much left by the time the State looks at your second choice.
 
rocky2track said:
For NR, Wyoming looks at your first choice and applies preference points. Those that don't draw on preference points then get thrown into the random draw tag portion. Then after a few of those lucky ones get drawn, your second choice will then be looked at. Usually not much left by the time the State looks at your second choice.
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You are to kind, thank you. I’ll be sure to post the results of the coin toss.
 
rocky2track said:
For NR, Wyoming looks at your first choice and applies preference points. Those that don't draw on preference points then get thrown into the random draw tag portion. Then after a few of those lucky ones get drawn, your second choice will then be looked at. Usually not much left by the time the State looks at your second choice.
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The NR landowner tags come off the top.

Then the only way your second choice is filled is the area you applied for as a second choice is under subscribed.
 
Back to the topic, I still say push rifle deer season dates into October when it’s the toughest time of year to harvest mature bucks.

Open rifle elk seasons a couple weeks prior to deer seasons so bucks are educated and move to areas they have a better chance to survive once deer season opens. This may also place more hunting pressure on elk rather than deer.

My guess is outfitters would be all in favor of September rifle elk season dates in G and H with an extension of elk seasons? If Wyo really wants to harvest elk and put less pressure on deer this would be a great way to do it!

Opening elk season first worked in Colorado until the CPW converted to rut rifle deer seasons. Older age class bucks quickly learn that elk hunters running up roads, trails, and in the backcountry is a sign they need to head for cover! If you know anything about monster muley bucks you know that they know how to become ghosts once they sense hunters.

This would be one way that residents would have similar opportunity to what they currently have without converting to limit tag quotas.

Aligning season dates with other units across Wyoming would lesson hunting pressure in G & H. As it currently stands residents hunt G&H early than switch to other units that have later season opening dates if they don’t fill their tag.

I think this would be a decent compromise for Wyo res rather than going to limited tags. My guess is this would dramatically increase age class of bucks without pt restrictions or decrease in tag opportunity.
 
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jims said:
Back to the topic, I still say push rifle deer season dates into October when it’s the toughest time of year to harvest mature bucks.

Open rifle elk seasons a couple weeks prior to deer seasons so bucks are educated and move to areas they have a better chance to survive once deer season opens. This may also place more hunting pressure on elk rather than deer.

My guess is outfitters would be all in favor of September rifle elk season dates in G and H with an extension of elk seasons? If Wyo really wants to harvest elk and put less pressure on deer this would be a great way to do it!

Opening elk season first worked in Colorado until the CPW converted to rut rifle deer seasons. Older age class bucks quickly learn that elk hunters running up roads, trails, and in the backcountry is a sign they need to head for cover! If you know anything about monster muley bucks you know that they know how to become ghosts once they sense hunters.

This would be one way that residents would have similar opportunity to what they currently have without converting to limit tag quotas.

Aligning season dates with other units across Wyoming would lesson hunting pressure in G & H. As it currently stands residents hunt G&H early than switch to other units that have later season opening dates if they don’t fill their tag.

I think this would be a decent compromise for Wyo res rather than going to limited tags. My guess is this would dramatically increase age class of bucks without pt restrictions or decrease in tag opportunity.
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My guess, I don't think outfitters and archery elk hunters think your idea is worth a chit. Outfitters guide elk hunters and I don't think hunters that want a quality general elk hunt are going to be supportive of blasting bulls in the rut with rifles.

Great idea, then general elk quality can be total crap right along with total crap deer hunting.

Hard no to your ideas, and I suggest you spend more time worrying about your state of residence, more than enough to fix there.
 
BuzzH said:
My guess, I don't think outfitters and archery elk hunters think your idea is worth a chit. Outfitters guide elk hunters and I don't think hunters that want a quality general elk hunt are going to be supportive of blasting bulls in the rut with rifles.

Great idea, then general elk quality can be total crap right along with total crap deer hunting.

Hard no to your ideas, and I suggest you spend more time worrying about your state of residence, more than enough to fix there.
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Are you suggesting hunters and outfitters don’t support the September 26th general elk opener for rifle in much of that country? It’s definitely the rut, bulls are getting blasted with rifles, and in my opinion the general elk quality is far from total crap.
 
I actually think it's a great compromise that increases pressure on elk while allowing mature bucks to mature. Obviously, season dates can be tweaked.

So Buzz, you are all in favor of deer tags going to all limited in G & H for res where numbers continue to spiral? I just scrolled through every one of your posts and you offer 0 recommendations...only complaints!

I'm certain a lot of Wyo residents would rather compromise than go to limited deer tags in G&H. If deer numbers and quality continue to dive do you have a solution?

Aligning season dates with other units across Wyoming would lesson hunting pressure in G & H. As it currently stands residents hunt G&H early than switch to other units that have later season opening dates if they don’t fill their tag. Opening elk seasons early and longer places more hunting pressure on elk allowing deer the chance to age.

Buzz, please offer a recommendation in your next post that increases mule deer numbers and age class of bucks in G&H.
 
jims said:
I actually think it's a great compromise that increases pressure on elk while allowing mature bucks to mature. Obviously, season dates can be tweaked.

So Buzz, you are all in favor of deer tags going to all limited in G & H for res where numbers continue to spiral? I just scrolled through every one of your posts and you offer 0 recommendations...only complaints!

I'm certain a lot of Wyo residents would rather compromise than go to limited deer tags in G&H. If deer numbers and quality continue to dive do you have a solution?

Aligning season dates with other units across Wyoming would lesson hunting pressure in G & H. As it currently stands residents hunt G&H early than switch to other units that have later season opening dates if they don’t fill their tag. Opening elk seasons early and longer places more hunting pressure on elk allowing deer the chance to age.

Buzz, please offer a recommendation in your next post that increases mule deer numbers and age class of bucks in G&H.
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Reduce NR deer tags in G and H to zero, then the NRs have nothing to complain about. Deer tags aren't going all lq for residents in G and H, so no reason to change anything.

Do some research Sebastian, not many residents are hunting 2 deer seasons. No biological or social reason to align seasons, none

Why do want to take opportunity away from the residents that want to hunt 2 seasons? Sort of intuitively obvious, that the hunters that hunt G and H, that also hunt other areas later, those folks didn't kill a deer in G or H.

Also, we don't need more pressure on general elk in that part of Wyoming.

By the way, can you give us all an update on how you're fixing the crap deer and elk management in Colorado?

Also, when was the last time you hunted in G or H?
 
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Banger said:
Are you suggesting hunters and outfitters don’t support the September 26th general elk opener for rifle in much of that country? It’s definitely the rut, bulls are getting blasted with rifles, and in my opinion the general elk quality is far from total crap.
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Sebastian is suggesting opening it earlier in September to rifle hunting elk.

Are you suggesting that's a good idea and wouldn't impact bull quality?

Oh sure, sure it wouldn't.
 
BuzzH said:
Sebastian is suggesting opening it earlier in September to rifle hunting elk.

Are you suggesting that's a good idea and wouldn't impact bull quality?

Oh sure, sure it wouldn't.
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Ah, I missed that. No I would not suggest opening rifle elk earlier. It certainly could impact bull quality, but to be fair there are other places that have earlier openers than September 26, (Thorofare, Frank Church) where one could argue bull quality is not affected. But access is surely a big factor in that.
 
Went to one of the regional season proposal meetings the other day. One of the folks presenting manages the southern end of the Wyo Range. He spoke of the measurable effect of resident hunters self regulating after harsh winters or low buck numbers. Said that his data shows fewer resident hunters either show up or don’t kill a buck in G after rough winters. Said the ability to go elsewhere or focus on elk is one of the things that resident hunter tell him they do. His comment was that this factor alone is what allows him to see G remaining OTC for residents
 
Buzz, you know better than I do that elk and deer season dates could be tweaked in October or whenever to benefit deer without impacting bull quality and resident elk opportunity.

September rifle deer season dates prior to rifle elk season doesn't make a whole lot of sense when trying to improve a struggling deer herd. God forbid do something that tweaks season dates that would ultimately benefit struggling deer herds across Wyoming! All of us that have been around for years know the potential of G and H and other units across Wyoming. Might as well sit back and let're rip.

So according to JM and Buzz there should be no concern with the long-term downward trend in mule deer population, harvest rates, and quality of bucks in Regions G and H. They have no fear of historic low deer herd declines and the future of deer. Might as well leave things like they are because they will recover.
 
jims said:
So according to JM and Buzz there should be no concern with the long-term downward trend in mule deer population, harvest rates, and quality of bucks in Regions G and H. They have no fear of historic low deer herd declines and the future of deer. Might as well leave things like they are because they will recover.
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Sure pile on me too. Was it the 4 pt APR comment? Because how you are describing my concerns here is clown dribble, like most of what you say.
 
Muleyaddict63! said:
Everyone calling for resident hunting to become limited entry should have to show some research or studies that prove limiting buck harvest increases populations... units in our own state with LE tags don't even increase the numbers! I promise there's much bigger issues facing these deer then resident hunters shooting bucks. I encourage everyone to get onto the BLM website and push for more designation of winter range/migration routes. While there put a comment in for the proposed 20,000 acres of industrial solar development. Limited entry resident tags are NOT the solution.
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Then why cut the non resident tags since it means nothing.
 
mulecreek said:
Went to one of the regional season proposal meetings the other day. One of the folks presenting manages the southern end of the Wyo Range. He spoke of the measurable effect of resident hunters self regulating after harsh winters or low buck numbers. Said that his data shows fewer resident hunters either show up or don’t kill a buck in G after rough winters. Said the ability to go elsewhere or focus on elk is one of the things that resident hunter tell him they do. His comment was that this factor alone is what allows him to see G remaining OTC for residents
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Thumbs up for Unlimited Hunters and very limited Deer. Thats Great. Just so you know we are starting to lose what few fawns we have along the Star Valley Face. The easy winter is getting harder. In the last 20 years we have had a Net Gain Fawn crop, 4 years. Ya Mule Deer should recover Quickly. I would like to go on a scouting trip with Jake, jm77 and buzz so you can show me what I am missing.
 
letmgetbig said:
Thumbs up for Unlimited Hunters and very limited Deer. Thats Great. Just so you know we are starting to lose what few fawns we have along the Star Valley Face. The easy winter is getting harder. In the last 20 years we have had a Net Gain Fawn crop, 4 years. Ya Mule Deer should recover Quickly. I would like to go on a scouting trip with Jake, jm77 and buzz so you can show me what I am missing.
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Lucky for you, the local deer on the star valley face are a tiny part of the population in G. The deer in your yard dont mean much to the population.

The winter further south where the deer migrate to has been mild.

Try leaving town with your binoculars.

Red Desert to Hoback Migration Assessment – Wyoming Migration Initiative

migrationinitiative.org migrationinitiative.org
 
letmgetbig said:
I am well aware of what's on the winter range. NOT MUCH...
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No chit? Who would have ever guessed that following last winter?

In other shocking news when 80% of the deer die, they don't recover in one year.

Even more surprising, you can't see deer running around that died last winter.
 
letmgetbig said:
Thumbs up for Unlimited Hunters and very limited Deer. Thats Great. Just so you know we are starting to lose what few fawns we have along the Star Valley Face. The easy winter is getting harder. In the last 20 years we have had a Net Gain Fawn crop, 4 years. Ya Mule Deer should recover Quickly. I would like to go on a scouting trip with Jake, jm77 and buzz so you can show me what I am missing.
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What do you think the solution to recover the mule deer herd is?
 
BuzzH said:
Right, I know about 4 people that hunt more than 2 solid months a season that have full time jobs.

How many people do you know that have 6-10 weeks of paid vacation a year?
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I got in 41 days of hunting last year without taking a day off work. We killed our late cow tags a little early, other wise I would have had another 6 days no time off and I Had another 6 personal days I could have used if needed.

I am lucky, but I also worked hard to get my set up and O work hard to keep it.
 
Good hell this was a interesting turn of events.

I personally would not put buzz and jm77 down to much. You guys realize you want them on your side right? They get involved a lot and understand the changes that happen
 
Tikka said:
Ban BuzzH from any tags in Wyoming... He's a native Montanian resident, not Wyoming....
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Right, and it's such a sweet deal I have. Resident tags in Wyoming and have hunted Montana going on 24 years straight as a NR.

I had to draw the combo the first few years, then started getting the come home to hunt deer and elk tags for a combined $144 ($80 for elk, $64 for deer which was 4x the resident tag costs). The last 5 years or so, half priced NR OTC Native Montana deer/elk tags.

Here's some $64 NR MT deer:

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Some half priced NR OTC Montana native deer:

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Its good being a Native Montana Resident living in another State with great hunting.
 
Tikka said:
Ban BuzzH from any tags in Wyoming... He's a native Montanian resident, not Wyoming....
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How many damn animals do you have to kill, Buzz 💩, before you are willing to leave some for the next generation? Another thousand head?

Go ahead and post another photo of all the scrap heads in your garage, then tell us why guys like you aren’t a big part of the decline of Wyoming’s wildlife.

Just sayin…

HT
 
HornedToad said:
How many damn animals do you have to kill, Buzz 💩, before you are willing to leave some for the next generation? Another thousand head?

Go ahead and post another photo of all the scrap heads in your garage, then tell us why guys like you aren’t a big part of the decline of Wyoming’s wildlife.

Just sayin…

HT
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Triggered much?

Yeah, I've been pretty tough on the mule deer in Wyoming. I haven't shot one here since 2012.

I have shot a ton of elk, you know, that are thousands over objective.
 
C’mon on. Not triggered at all. Just had so much fun laughing at the c..k sucking illustration, I thought I’d pile on.

Keep on killing’… it’s what you do.

HT
 
I think we've seen photos of every animal Buzz has ever shot since the 1970's over the years posted on MM! Great job Buzz!

Buzz says,.......No chit? Who would have ever guessed that following last winter?

In other shocking news when 80% of the deer die, they don't recover in one year.

Even more surprising, you can't see deer running around that died last winter.

Buzz, we are still waiting for your recommendations on practical ways to turn Region G and H deer numbers and quality around. What is your recommendation if 80% of the deer die and there are unlimited Wyo resident deer tags issued in G and H?
 
jims said:
I think we've seen photos of every animal Buzz has ever shot since the 1970's over the years posted on MM! Great job Buzz!

Buzz says,.......No chit? Who would have ever guessed that following last winter?

In other shocking news when 80% of the deer die, they don't recover in one year.

Even more surprising, you can't see deer running around that died last winter.

Buzz, we are still waiting for your recommendations on practical ways to turn Region G and H deer numbers and quality around. What is your recommendation if 80% of the deer die and there are unlimited Wyo resident deer tags issued in G and H?
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I'm still waiting for what you're doing for the crap management in Colorado...answer the questions Sebastian.

No, you haven't seen photos of even half the animals I've shot.
 
I'm all in favor of switching away from rut rifle hunts in Colorado and also cutting back on deer tags. My guess is the CPW is switching back to old rifle season dates like they used to be in the next 5 year plan.

How about G and H Buzz? You do a great job of running circles around my one and only question!
 
people have way too much time and money and their hands. Our grandfathers would roll over in their graves in they knew what hunting had evolved into.
 
jims said:
I'm all in favor of switching away from rut rifle hunts in Colorado and also cutting back on deer tags. My guess is the CPW is switching back to old rifle season dates like they used to be in the next 5 year plan.

How about G and H Buzz? You do a great job of running circles around my one and only question!
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Why do you ask questions I've already answered? Slash NR tags to zero to improve hunt quality for residents.

Hope for favorable weather so does and fawns survive increasing the herd.

All the nonsense you suggested does nothing to increase the herd...all fluff.

About it.
 
Buzz, so continue down the same road of unlimited tags for Wyo residents and pray for good weather is your answer to ever-dwindling G and H deer herd. We all applaud your answer!
 
"Hope" isn't a very good management plan.
Cutting NR tags has already been happening over the last 20 years and obviously isn't working either. Continuing to cut the small portion of NR tags and expecting drastic results is like sticking your finger in the hole in a dam when water is flowing over the top.
Even if the NR tags were cut to zero there would still be some on here that would blame others - They just can't get over the fact that a limited resource needs to have the take limited/managed. Sometimes when mother nature cooperates more animals are available to harvest but in other times when mother nature doesn't cooperate maybe less animals are available and opportunities should be restricted.

I have NO problem cutting NR tags and I have no problem waiting longer to get to hunt a specific unit in Wyoming or any other state. I also understand that I have to wait and take turns to hunt in my home state. But I don't understand the mentality that some people think they should be entitled to unrestricted hunting of a limited resource every year and expect the quantity/quality to remain unchanged.

Also, I think it is odd when someone openly brags about how he gets the privilege of hunting two states with the "benefits" of residency/past residency status in BOTH states and brags about all the animals he has killed in the "other" state, but then openly complains about how NR's ruin the hunting in "his" state even though he is a NR in one of those mentioned states.
 
SDBugler said:
"Hope" isn't a very good management plan.
Cutting NR tags has already been happening over the last 20 years and obviously isn't working either. Continuing to cut the small portion of NR tags and expecting drastic results is like sticking your finger in the hole in a dam when water is flowing over the top.
Even if the NR tags were cut to zero there would still be some on here that would blame others - They just can't get over the fact that a limited resource needs to have the take limited/managed. Sometimes when mother nature cooperates more animals are available to harvest but in other times when mother nature doesn't cooperate maybe less animals are available and opportunities should be restricted.

I have NO problem cutting NR tags and I have no problem waiting longer to get to hunt a specific unit in Wyoming or any other state. I also understand that I have to wait and take turns to hunt in my home state. But I don't understand the mentality that some people think they should be entitled to unrestricted hunting of a limited resource every year and expect the quantity/quality to remain unchanged.

Also, I think it is odd when someone openly brags about how he gets the privilege of hunting two states with the "benefits" of residency/past residency status in BOTH states and brags about all the animals he has killed in the "other" state, but then openly complains about how NR's ruin the hunting in "his" state even though he is a NR in one of those mentioned states.
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I think it's odd so many NRs worry about management in Wyoming when their home states are in shambles. If Wyoming is doing it all wrong, why bother to apply? Feel free to not hunt here.

Stay in your home state and knock it out of the park. Implement the management you want there.

As to Montana, that's their decision to allow past residents different privileges. Don't like it? Well, feel free to not hunt there either.

At some point you're going to realize it's up to residents to decide how they manage their wildlife, not tourists.

I can give you dozens of reasons why residents want general tags. I couldn't care less why a NR thinks we shouldn't, none of your business. Stay in your lane.
 
SDBUGLer,

Who said anything about quantity and quality remaining unchanged? Please show me where hunting anywhere in Wyo, let alone G and H, is unrestricted? Plenty of restrictions. Over the years many restrictions in regards to G&H have changed. Season opener dates have changed. Season length has changed. APR's have changed. Doe seasons have changed. Number of NR tags have changed. One thing that has not happened is making G&H LQ for resident hunters. These deer herds have shown the ability to grow from one year to the next. They have shown the ability to increase fawn production from one year to the next. They have shown the ability to increase buck to doe ratio from one year to the next. They have shown the ability to produce tremendous trophy quality. If it didn't then NR's wouldn't wait a decade or offer deals to others to share PP's. All while remaining an OTC tag for residents. What causes the declines in population from one year to the next? Winter severity and weather conditions. Period! Full STOP!

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BuzzH said:
Mulecreek, oh please, Sebastian and crew think we should be doing more to control the weather. If we don't, we just aren't doing enough for deer management, and doing it all wrong.

We just need to try harder with this weather deal so the tourists have more and bigger deer to kill.
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I have been doing everything in my power as a coal miner for the last 30 years to help make Wyoming a slightly warmer place. What more can they ask of me. A little "thank you" would be nice.
 
mulecreek said:
I have been doing everything in my power as a coal miner for the last 30 years to help make Wyoming a slightly warmer place. What more can they ask of me. A little "thank you" would be nice.
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I drive a diesel, does that count?
Oh, and I burn wood to heat my house whenever possible. 🤣🤣
 
mulecreek said:
I just wish at least one person could articulate what deer management issue would be solved by making these areas LQ for residents. Just one person. List out all the hurdles the growth of this herd faces and show me which one gets solved by LQ for residents.
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Won't happen, they are too caught in their sexual identity and fantasizing about @BuzzH kill photos.
 
SDBugler said:
but then openly complains about how NR's ruin the hunting in "his" state even though he is a NR in one of those mentioned states.
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I missed where he’s complaining about NRs ruining the hunting in his state. Can you please quote?
 
In the short term LQ for residents would allow more bucks to remain on the landscape and grow bigger, thus allowing for better escapement due to less hunting pressure. Then when buck:doe ratios are back within management objectives or close to it, it could go back to non LQ. Would be a drastic change to current management strategies. Keeping it open for residents without a LQ allows remaining bucks to be harvested, further reducing big bucks on the landscape for years to come. However, there is evidence that reduction in bucks on the landscape equates to more and healthier fawns surviving, thus a quicker rebound in the population. So keeping it status quo may be the best option rather than going LQ for residents.
 
HornSeeker said:
In the short term LQ for residents would allow more bucks to remain on the landscape and grow bigger, thus allowing for better escapement due to less hunting pressure. Then when buck:doe ratios are back within management objectives or close to it, it could go back to non LQ. Would be a drastic change to current management strategies. Keeping it open for residents without a LQ allows remaining bucks to be harvested, further reducing big bucks on the landscape for years to come. However, there is evidence that reduction in bucks on the landscape equates to more and healthier fawns surviving, thus a quicker rebound in the population. So keeping it status quo may be the best option rather than going LQ for residents.
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A few questions. 1) Currently are B to D ratios outside of management objectives? 2) Is there evidence that a lack of bucks in the herd is leading to unbred does, therefore lower than possible fawn crop? 3) How would making it LQ increase the number of "big bucks"? 4) From a herd growth perspective, how is having more "big bucks" beneficial?
 
HornSeeker said:
In the short term LQ for residents would allow more bucks to remain on the landscape and grow bigger, thus allowing for better escapement due to less hunting pressure. Then when buck:doe ratios are back within management objectives or close to it, it could go back to non LQ. Would be a drastic change to current management strategies. Keeping it open for residents without a LQ allows remaining bucks to be harvested, further reducing big bucks on the landscape for years to come. However, there is evidence that reduction in bucks on the landscape equates to more and healthier fawns surviving, thus a quicker rebound in the population. So keeping it status quo may be the best option rather than going LQ for residents.
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Would shortening seasons not do the same thing regarding less deer being killed?

Shorter season=less pressure, no?

Plus, everyone seemed to ignore @mulecreek regarding Residents not shooting deer and even choosing not to hunt areas hit hard by winter. Residents self-regulate.
 
mulecreek said:
A few questions. 1) Currently are B to D ratios outside of management objectives? 2) Is there evidence that a lack of bucks in the herd is leading to unbred does, therefore lower than possible fawn crop? 3) How would making it LQ increase the number of "big bucks"? 4) From a herd growth perspective, how is having more "big bucks" beneficial?
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I don't have the numbers in front of me but from what i remember 1) b:d ratios i believe were around 24-25 and objective is 35-40 , 2) no, usually as low as 8 bucks per 100 does is enough to breed the majority of does, 3) by allowing more escapement of bucks due to decrease in the number of hunters, and allowing younger bucks to mature, 4) its probably not, but more of a societal interest from the hunting community where a lot of people like to harvest mature deer over younger ones. 5) to the point about shorter season = less pressure, yes this is true, but it doesn't limit the number of hunters on the landscape just shifts it to a more jammed packed small window of opportunity. However, you'd expect harvest to be down compared to keeping the season longer.
 
One of the main reasons LQ areas have a higher % kill is that LQ hunters have no other options. Residents can hunt general every year which makes for a higher likelihood of self regulating on mule deer, which we know has happened, especially in western Wyoming.

Proof that LQ rarely works long term can be found statewide. Buck quality down even with higher buck/doe ratios, ridiculous drawing odds.
 
HornSeeker said:
I don't have the numbers in front of me but from what i remember 1) b:d ratios i believe were around 24-25 and objective is 35-40 , 2) no, usually as low as 8 bucks per 100 does is enough to breed the majority of does, 3) by allowing more escapement of bucks due to decrease in the number of hunters, and allowing younger bucks to mature, 4) its probably not, but more of a societal interest from the hunting community where a lot of people like to harvest mature deer over younger ones. 5) to the point about shorter season = less pressure, yes this is true, but it doesn't limit the number of hunters on the landscape just shifts it to a more jammed packed small window of opportunity. However, you'd expect harvest to be down compared to keeping the season longer.
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According to the regional proposals submitted in March units in G and H currently have B to D ratios of 34-35:100. These units fall under special management guidelines that seek 30-45:100. So they are not currently under objective. They have also shown plenty of evidence that they can increase while under Gen management for resident hunters.

I would completely agree with your thoughts on #4. Going to LQ is a hunter management thing and will have no beneficial effect on the overall deer herd. Plenty of evidence that it will have a detrimental effect, as pointed out by @jm77 . Folks that want LQ want it for their benefit not the deer. There is nothing wrong with having that opinion, but so far no one has been able to convince me it would have any benefit to the Wyoming Range and Sublette deer herds at this time.
 
I think it's odd so many NRs worry about management in Wyoming when their home states are in shambles. If Wyoming is doing it all wrong, why bother to apply? Feel free to not hunt here.

This is simply a forum for comments. If you read my post you will note that I said that I have no problem cutting NR tags, especially when mother nature cuts into the herd. When did I complain about Wyoming's management? I was simply commenting about someone wanting to eliminate all NR tags and expecting that to be the end all solution for improving quality/quantity for residents when they don't regulate their own numbers. I have mentioned previously that eventually even the ressy demand will exceed the resource. Also, my home state is NOT in shambles as you seem to know.

As to Montana, that's their decision to allow past residents different privileges. Don't like it? Well, feel free to not hunt there either.

You are a NR of Montana and brag that you shoot so many of "their" animals yet you come on here and complain that NR's are shooting all of the WY deer and ruining your quality/quantity. Wyoming allows NR hunters - if you don't like it, then don't hunt in Wyoming. Remember we are ALL a resident in only 1 state but we area all a NR in 49 other states.

At some point you're going to realize it's up to residents to decide how they manage their wildlife, not tourists.

Management is up to the WG&F and commission - not the residents. This is simply a forum for people to comment on. Believe it or not, everyone has an opinion and it doesn't have to align with yours or mine. I doubt that you and your opinions represent ALL of Wyoming. There are probably some residents out there that enjoy having relatives that have moved away come home and hunt, there are probably some outfitters that enjoy NR clients, there are probably some business owners that like on "tourist" income to help sustain their business.

Who said anything about quantity and quality remaining unchanged?

My comment was in response to "Slash NR tags to zero to improve hunt quality for residents." Apparently, it is the NR's fault for "ruining" the quality even though several years ago there were a LOT more NR tags in G & H and over the years despite major tag cuts for NR's there is still a problem.


Please show me where hunting anywhere in Wyo, let alone G and H, is unrestricted?

My comment was only related to the subject at hand of unrestricted resident "general" tags in G & H. The NR tags can continue to be cut even to the point of eliminating them. But eventually some day unlimited resident demand will exceed the supply - maybe not now, or 5 years, or 10 years but eventually.


What causes the declines in population from one year to the next? Winter severity and weather conditions. Period! Full STOP!

Totally agree and never once disagreed or said otherwise. Other things do come into play such as the quantity/quality of winter habitat and available food.
Maybe where we differ in our opinions is that during those bad times when tag cuts are necessary, it is my opinion that simply cutting a few NR tags is meaningless in the overall management when the majority of the tags go unregulated. If the residents are complaining that the quantity and quality is not where it should be, then simply cutting a select few NR tags isn't going to really make any difference. As I stated NR tag cuts have been happening for years and continue to happen, but apparently that isn't achieving the desired results. At some point after all the NR tags are gone there will continue to be problems.

I can give you dozens of reasons why residents want general tags. I couldn't care less why a NR thinks we shouldn't, none of your business. Stay in your lane.

If residents want general tags that is fine with me and up to the WG&F and commission. But you also can't continue to have unregulated tags and expect the quality/quantity to remain. It is a fact that herds are diminishing all across the west while demand is increasing (even resident demand). Again, this is simply a forum for people to express their opinions. I'm not telling WY how to manage their deer - just making comments.


I missed where he’s complaining about NRs ruining the hunting in his state. Can you please quote?

In post #151 "Slash NR tags to zero to improve hunt quality for residents."


I just wish at least one person could articulate what deer management issue would be solved by making these areas LQ for residents. Just one person. List out all the hurdles the growth of this herd faces and show me which one gets solved by LQ for residents.

So I read many posts that are stating to even further limit or even eliminate NR tags yet they go on to say nothing is gained from limiting tag quotas. So if limiting tags is the solution on one hand, then why have unregulated tag quotas on the other?

Won't happen, they are too caught in their sexual identity and fantasizing about @BuzzH kill photos.

At 59 years of age I have no S.I. issues - LOL.
And I have no envy of the same repeated kill pictures.
 
NR here. Looking at the current LE/LQ type 1 tags, Wyoming might have the most sensible quotes that iv seen, as in comparison to Montana limited entry unit number(grossly over issued imo).
 
SDBugler said:
This is simply a forum for comments. If you read my post you will note that I said that I have no problem cutting NR tags, especially when mother nature cuts into the herd. When did I complain about Wyoming's management? I was simply commenting about someone wanting to eliminate all NR tags and expecting that to be the end all solution for improving quality/quantity for residents when they don't regulate their own numbers. I have mentioned previously that eventually even the ressy demand will exceed the resource. Also, my home state is NOT in shambles as you seem to know.[

As to Montana, that's their decision to allow past residents different privileges. Don't like it? Well, feel free to not hunt there either.

You are a NR of Montana and brag that you shoot so many of "their" animals yet you come on here and complain that NR's are shooting all of the WY deer and ruining your quality/quantity. Wyoming allows NR hunters - if you don't like it, then don't hunt in Wyoming. Remember we are ALL a resident in only 1 state but we area all a NR in 49 other states.

At some point you're going to realize it's up to residents to decide how they manage their wildlife, not tourists.

Management is up to the WG&F and commission - not the residents. This is simply a forum for people to comment on. Believe it or not, everyone has an opinion and it doesn't have to align with yours or mine. I doubt that you and your opinions represent ALL of Wyoming. There are probably some residents out there that enjoy having relatives that have moved away come home and hunt, there are probably some outfitters that enjoy NR clients, there are probably some business owners that like on "tourist" income to help sustain their business.

Who said anything about quantity and quality remaining unchanged?

My comment was in response to "Slash NR tags to zero to improve hunt quality for residents." Apparently, it is the NR's fault for "ruining" the quality even though several years ago there were a LOT more NR tags in G & H and over the years despite major tag cuts for NR's there is still a problem.


Please show me where hunting anywhere in Wyo, let alone G and H, is unrestricted?

My comment was only related to the subject at hand of unrestricted resident "general" tags in G & H. The NR tags can continue to be cut even to the point of eliminating them. But eventually some day unlimited resident demand will exceed the supply - maybe not now, or 5 years, or 10 years but eventually.


What causes the declines in population from one year to the next? Winter severity and weather conditions. Period! Full STOP!

Totally agree and never once disagreed or said otherwise. Other things do come into play such as the quantity/quality of winter habitat and available food.
Maybe where we differ in our opinions is that during those bad times when tag cuts are necessary, it is my opinion that simply cutting a few NR tags is meaningless in the overall management when the majority of the tags go unregulated. If the residents are complaining that the quantity and quality is not where it should be, then simply cutting a select few NR tags isn't going to really make any difference. As I stated NR tag cuts have been happening for years and continue to happen, but apparently that isn't achieving the desired results. At some point after all the NR tags are gone there will continue to be problems.

I can give you dozens of reasons why residents want general tags. I couldn't care less why a NR thinks we shouldn't, none of your business. Stay in your lane.

If residents want general tags that is fine with me and up to the WG&F and commission. But you also can't continue to have unregulated tags and expect the quality/quantity to remain. It is a fact that herds are diminishing all across the west while demand is increasing (even resident demand). Again, this is simply a forum for people to express their opinions. I'm not telling WY how to manage their deer - just making comments.


I missed where he’s complaining about NRs ruining the hunting in his state. Can you please quote?

In post #151 "Slash NR tags to zero to improve hunt quality for residents."


I just wish at least one person could articulate what deer management issue would be solved by making these areas LQ for residents. Just one person. List out all the hurdles the growth of this herd faces and show me which one gets solved by LQ for residents.

So I read many posts that are stating to even further limit or even eliminate NR tags yet they go on to say nothing is gained from limiting tag quotas. So if limiting tags is the solution on one hand, then why have unregulated tag quotas on the other?

Won't happen, they are too caught in their sexual identity and fantasizing about @BuzzH kill photos.

At 59 years of age I have no S.I. issues - LOL.
And I have no envy of the same repeated kill pictures.
Click to expand...

This is simply a forum for comments. If you read my post you will note that I said that I have no problem cutting NR tags, especially when mother nature cuts into the herd. When did I complain about Wyoming's management? I was simply commenting about someone wanting to eliminate all NR tags and expecting that to be the end all solution for improving quality/quantity for residents when they don't regulate their own numbers. I have mentioned previously that eventually even the ressy demand will exceed the resource. Also, my home state is NOT in shambles as you seem to know.

Great, your management is so awesome, no reason to leave your home state. I don't tell you to how manage your wildlife, I would expect the same in return. What cutting all NR tags would do is increase HUNT quality for Residents, I never mentioned anything about deer quality that you're hung up on. Our management strategies are not tailored to your desire to have more big bucks. I don't think cutting NR tags in an end all solution, I think its a solution to allow Residents to have general tags. You know, so that 12 year old kids can hunt with their parents and grandparents. Your desire to come here on vacation to chase a big buck is NEVER going to supersede my desire, and the desire of Residents to continue the traditions of families hunting together. If something has to give, its NR opportunity. Simple as that.

You are a NR of Montana and brag that you shoot so many of "their" animals yet you come on here and complain that NR's are shooting all of the WY deer and ruining your quality/quantity. Wyoming allows NR hunters - if you don't like it, then don't hunt in Wyoming. Remember we are ALL a resident in only 1 state but we area all a NR in 49 other states.

I won't apologize for wanting better quality hunting for Residents first. Not to be mistaken for deer QUALITY. We have quality for those that want to put in the effort. Pretty apparent with all the NR whining, crying and bellyaching that goes on about NR opportunity here.

I get to hunt Montana at the pleasure of the Residents, they made the decision to allow me to buy tags there as a former Resident born there. I testified against both the come home to hunt and also the Native licenses. Matter of fact, made an 11 hour one way drive to testify against it. Where were you? I "lost" and your grievance is not with me, its with the decision makers in Montana.

Management is up to the WG&F and commission - not the residents. This is simply a forum for people to comment on. Believe it or not, everyone has an opinion and it doesn't have to align with yours or mine. I doubt that you and your opinions represent ALL of Wyoming. There are probably some residents out there that enjoy having relatives that have moved away come home and hunt, there are probably some outfitters that enjoy NR clients, there are probably some business owners that like on "tourist" income to help sustain their business.

Absolutely not true. The Residents decide who to represent them and the wildlife in this state. If you don't think that Residents have influence over wildlife policy, then how did 90-10 pass? Why is it we still have OTC general elk and deer tags? Why is it there are tag cuts again to deer in G & H? Why did the Non Resident elk draw get moved to May? Why are aircraft and drone regulations in place? Why are sheep, moose, goat and bison raffle tags being deducted from the NR quota if a NR draws any of those? How do you think type 4 cow tags were added as an additional license And...on, and on, and on. I can tell you from first-hand experience, all thanks to Resident pressure. Mainly because I was either there when the pressure was applied for those things passed or know who was directly responsible for all of those things happening. HINT: It was residents, and it doesn't take ALL residents to make those things happen.

The GF, Legislature, and Commission all serve at the pleasure of the Residents here. They go off the rails and quit listening to the will of the Residents, they find out right quick who works for who. Happens all the time.
 
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I just thought of a great option that will alleviate hunting pressure in Western Wyoming.

Why not leave elk and deer tags in Western Wyoming general for residents that reside in those counties. Put a cap on tags issued to residents that reside in Albany, Laramie, and Natrona Counties!
 
Denver CO - The Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission held a rare late night session on Sunday to adopt a measure that would increase nonresident hunting licenses to more than 50% of the total. Reasons given were to "increase diversity from other parts of the country, provide equity in license distribution, and promote inclusion for those who can't afford high license prices".


This last initiative, called the "20-20 rule" will make available 20% of all licenses at 20% of the normal cost, and no proof of income will be required to apply because, as Commissioner Beaulieu explained, "We trust everyone - well, except resident hunters".

Commissioner Haskett, an outfitter, said, "This will be good for resident hunters because it will encourage residents to move to another state to take advantage of the new nonresident opportunities here."

The Commission also voted to extend the nonresident application deadline to May 1, and would allow low income nonresident hunters to make payments over time, with no interest.
 
jims said:
Denver CO - The Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission held a rare late night session on Sunday to adopt a measure that would increase nonresident hunting licenses to more than 50% of the total. Reasons given were to "increase diversity from other parts of the country, provide equity in license distribution, and promote inclusion for those who can't afford high license prices".


This last initiative, called the "20-20 rule" will make available 20% of all licenses at 20% of the normal cost, and no proof of income will be required to apply because, as Commissioner Beaulieu explained, "We trust everyone - well, except resident hunters".

Commissioner Haskett, an outfitter, said, "This will be good for resident hunters because it will encourage residents to move to another state to take advantage of the new nonresident opportunities here."

The Commission also voted to extend the nonresident application deadline to May 1, and would allow low income nonresident hunters to make payments over time, with no interest.
Click to expand...
April fools was yesterday….
 
jims said:
I just thought of a great option that will alleviate hunting pressure in Western Wyoming.

Why not leave elk and deer tags in Western Wyoming general for residents that reside in those counties. Put a cap on tags issued to residents that reside in Albany, Laramie, and Natrona Counties!
Click to expand...

That is a stoopid idea!
 
@letmgetbig I am genuinely curious how you think limited quota for residents is going to bring back the deer herd. Biologists claim pregnancy rates 95+ %. I believe getting fawns to 1 year old is the biggest hurdle. I think predators are a big problem, lots of bears, mtn. lions and coyotes eating fawns. Hopefully the new highway crossing and the ones coming will save deer from vehicle collisions. You want to go scouting with me I'm up for it anytime, I'm sure you could actually teach me quite a bit about mule deer on a summer scouting trip. I'm always studying and learning about deer and welcome knowledge from guys who have watched deer as long as you have.
I love mule deer and I want to see a booming population. Maybe we need a big Grey's River fire?
 
Id highly suggest listening to a recent couple podcasts for anyone who actually wants to hear from data and science on what can help or not help mule deer herds. Some of the info will surprise you like it did me, i guarantee it, and its backed up by years of science and data, not keyboard experts. . . Big Hunt Guys episode 111 with Professor Brock McMillan, very eye opening info even showing that the current buck/doe ratio of G and H could be hurting more than helping the growth of big bucks right now, being to high. . Then Rokcast episone Fewer bucks, More fawns. . also with Dr. McMillan and Dr. Larsen. These guys are avid hunters, but also look at these populations from a truly scientific and data driven side, instead of a hopeful, or personal belief like many of us. Whether you agree or not with some of their beliefs, the difference is, they have years of data that show why they have some of the conclusions they believe. Worth listening if you truly care about mule deer and the future, and want to expand your knowledge of why and what could be done.
 
Togwotee said:
This is a stupid debate, all mule deer hunts should be 4 point minimum and tag reductions do mean less deer get killed. and less deer killed mean more deer alive . end of story. this holds true for bucks as well, the less you kill the more you have. go figure

If killing dink bucks is your deal then why are you on a forum titled monster muleys. let them grow up and shoot them later for Christ's sake.
Click to expand...

All those bucks that got "saved" prior to 23', died in 23.

Proving warehousing deer doesn't work
 
mntnguide said:
Id highly suggest listening to a recent couple podcasts for anyone who actually wants to hear from data and science on what can help or not help mule deer herds. Some of the info will surprise you like it did me, i guarantee it, and its backed up by years of science and data, not keyboard experts. . . Big Hunt Guys episode 111 with Professor Brock McMillan, very eye opening info even showing that the current buck/doe ratio of G and H could be hurting more than helping the growth of big bucks right now, being to high. . Then Rokcast episone Fewer bucks, More fawns. . also with Dr. McMillan and Dr. Larsen. These guys are avid hunters, but also look at these populations from a truly scientific and data driven side, instead of a hopeful, or personal belief like many of us. Whether you agree or not with some of their beliefs, the difference is, they have years of data that show why they have some of the conclusions they believe. Worth listening if you truly care about mule deer and the future, and want to expand your knowledge of why and what could be done.
Click to expand...
Sounds like they should sell a 1,000 more non-resident tags in G/H and use the money for some more overpasses.
 
nripepi said:
Sounds like they should sell a 1,000 more non-resident tags in G/H and use the money for some more overpasses.
Click to expand...
Where'd you come up with that idea listening to Utah biologists talk about Utah deer? ..but dont worry, if we need money, Wy will just sell more Cow elk tags and more than make up for the revenue of a few lost NR deer tags. But please, feel free to voice your idea to the commission and see where it takes you
 
mntnguide said:
Where'd you come up with that idea listening to Utah biologists talk about Utah deer? ..but dont worry, if we need money, Wy will just sell more Cow elk tags and more than make up for the revenue of a few lost NR deer tags. But please, feel free to voice your idea to the commission and see where it takes you
Click to expand...
Nothing stopping concerned NR's with donating to put more revenue in the bucket for over passes.
 

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