Wyoming preference points OUCH!!!

Combine the $100 point fee with the $12 application fee, $1900 tag fee, and guides in the wilderness law and I have to fold, only one point away from the top pool. Oh well, good luck to those who stay in. I might if it were not for the wilderness B.S..
 
Elmer...hang in there. There are portions of Area 5 that have sheep and are not in a wilderness area. Call Cody office and talk to Kevin Hurley or Doug McWhirter.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
"The legislation also gave the commission the authority to raise the nonresident preference point fees for moose and bighorn sheep. The seven-member board set the nonresident moose fee at $75 and the bighorn sheep fee at $100.

The commission?s actions regarding preference points only affect nonresidents."

Looks like they are taking advantage of the "immunity from any type of legal action that could result from screwing nonresidents" legislation and hitting us where it hurts.

I don't know about you guys but $100 is a lot for such a small chance of being drawn. I'll defintely be saying bye bye to my moose points.
 
I have always resisted the thought of hunting becoming a rich man's game, but I got to tell you that one hurts. I have been building points and that is just outrageous. The sheep points haven't topped out yet so you still don't know how many years it will take to draw a tag. I don't think I will be playing that game anymore. They proposed a 40 dollar fee on deer, elk and antelope, I wonder when that will go through the roof.
 
That is nuts, I even sent them a letter when they were considering it. Crazy.

Sheep $100, moose $75, deer, elk apps fees, etc, NR.

It will cost me a weeks pay to apply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Total BS

If that is what they will do that is flat out not right.

Is this what it costs even if you mail in the fee and actually enter or what it costs to just buy a point???

If it costs every NR that this is the most expensive state anywhere to apply.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-21-05 AT 02:44PM (MST)[p]DonV,

The press release did say that folks could opt out of the preference point system. Although it didn't go into details, I would think that would mean that you could still apply for the 25% pool without paying for a point.

Regards your question: "Is this what it costs even if you mail in the fee and actually enter or what it costs to just buy a point???"
As I understand it, it applies to both. $100 (sheep) to buy the point or $100 (sheep) deducted from your refund if you apply and don't draw.
 
Wyoming Game and Fish doesn't give a rip! They really don't care if we apply or not. They know their licenses will sell out, sure they might lose a few people who apply each year but after a few years the numbers will be equal to what it was this year and they will make a lot more revenue with these Preference point fees! I know of many hunters who wrote the G&F and expressed our feelings but it fell on Deaf ears and not only did they not listen, they raised the fees higher then what they told us to begin with.
McKinney aka Hiker
Proverbs 3:5-6
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-05 AT 08:26AM (MST)[p]Unfortunately, McKinney nailed it. By the time all costs are factored states like Wyoming and Utah that are very cheap to apply in ($7 & $5) without sending a bunch of money for them to sit on and earn interest, they are losing money on the preference point deal or at best breaking even. Surely, the number of people building points will drop substantially but they will now extract more money from us non-residents and all the tags will still sell. States budgets are tight so you really can't blame them either and of course their constituents will tell them "let the out-of-staters" pay. It is just one more unfortunate example of sport hunting gravitating toward a sport only for the wealthy as it is in Europe.
 
If Wyoming's commission showed a total disregard for what the Legislature told them what they could do, can you imagine what they'll do the next time they're given the go ahead for license fee increases? Anybody care to guess what the sheep tag will cost? Me thinks it will fall somewhere between $3,800 and $5,000. Wyoming used to be one of the more non-resident friendly states. Not anymore.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-05 AT 08:12PM (MST)[p]that is nuts. i am a wyoming resdent and i pay 7 dollars for a prerfence point. i feel bad for you guys. plus the fact you will never get a tag. i know some people who put in for 30 years and never got a tag yet. our gam and fish is greety. they dont do anything but drive around all day and the forest service is even worst.
 
also our moose numbers have dropped a lot. they blame it on the drought which is B.S. ever since they put in the wolves they are killing all the calves. we hardly even see moose anymore execpt for the bighorn mountain range. there are no wolves there but there are being sightings of them making there way into the bighorns. i think our moose days are coming to an end.
 
I think nonresidents should let the Wyoming G&F Dept. choke on their animals! I for one are done playing the game!
 
Funny thing is I will grumble and comlain but pay the price - and I expect the draw odds will get a lot better - in 10 years I should be looking good for sheep (got 6 points now).

I can afford to pay it (barley) - but I am sure many cannot, this truely is another unneccesary step at phasing the unwealthy guys out of NR hunting.

I cannot believe I have to allocated almost $1000 next year (nonrefundable) just to apply for tags, and I skip many states like WA & OR & ID.

I see why they did this but I think the prices should be 1/3 to 1/4 that - $100 for a sheep point? That is a 15 fold increase! $25 is enough IMO

Good luck to all.

DonV OH, looking for a second job so I can apply for a slim chance to hunt next year.
 
If raising the price for pref pts isn't enough there is currently a Wyo legislative group called Wyo SFW trying to pass a bill where outfitters will take a chunk of tags away from the nonresident tag pool. This would mean that already tough draw tags will be even tougher to draw if you are a do-it-yourself hunter like myself and don't want a guided hunt!

The outfitters in Wyo already made it so nonresidents can't hunt big game in wilderness areas without a guide and I have a feeling they have enough clout in the legislature that they could pass regulations where outfitters would get a pool of tags of their own. Every nonresident that enjoys hunting Wyo on their own better get on the stick and call, email, or write the WG&F, legislature, or others involved or we will likely see fewer tags available in the near future! In fact, I've heard the outfitters want 40% of the available nonresident tags!
 
I bet the people with 5 or more points will stick at it. Most of the people that will bail will be those who could really care less or those at the bottom of the PP ladder. I'll let my moose points go but I'll keep going for the sheep.
If they raised the price of tag, I wouldn't complain as much but when you have to pay $100 nonrefundable just to apply (I know it is optional), I think that is ridiculous. At least they could have made it $100 good for all species.
 
Just looked at non res draw odds for random sheep draws. Unit 5 had 801 applicants and zero drew. I would like to find out how many people have 7,8, and 9 points. Is this available? It looks like 239 people( non res) have 10 points. About 46 nonres sheep permits. This is a little discouraging. With 6 points I don't know if I will continue. What units are non wilderness that you can hunt with out a guide? Thanks for any feedback.
 
huntin....think you looked at the wrong link. Looked at link with max points, cuz 25% of NR tag quota goes to the random draw. The sheet I have states for area 5 there were 595 apps for 4 tags resulting in odds of 148.8:1(worst odds for the random draw). There were 189 apps with max points that applied for a hunt area, but there are also another 102 NR w/max points that just put in for their 10th point. To get break down on # of hunters in each point catagore(sp) call Kevin Hurley at the Cody G&F office. He is the sheep guru of WY. 307-527-7125.

There are good areas in area 5 that are not in the wilderness area, thus NR can hunt without a guide.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
kilbuc, thanks for your reply. I was hoping what I saw on Non res sheep points was wrong. Maybe I did'nt see the numbers correctly from the tears. With the numbers you have it looks like at least 291 people have 10 points. I will give Kevin a call. I'm guessing more will have 7,8, and 9 points. Thanks again.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-05 AT 11:23AM (MST)[p]huntin100 & Don V,

Not to rain on your parade, but with 6 points, you had better hope that a lot of people with more points drop out because of the $100 fee. After the the 2005 draw, there are 1,168 people with 7 or more points (7:226, 8:196, 9:225, 10:330, 11:191). Take that number and divide it by 47 (the number of permits in the preference draw) and you get 24.9 years to work through these hunters. There are 1258 applicants with 6 points. Divede that by the permits and you get an additional 26.8 years. What I'm hoping to demonstrate here is Wyoming's point system for sheep is selling false hope to many, in the current way it is set up. With the current system, the vast majority of applicants will NEVER make it out of the random draw. The new $100 fee will cause a substantial number of people to drop out, so it may be worth your time to buy for a couple of years to see where this all shakes out. If you are a new applicant (or one with 4 or less points), buying points looks to be a total waste of money.
 
dwalton, thanks for the info. That is just what I was after to make a decision. I did call Kevin Hurley Wyoming sheep DWR man. I asked him the number of people ahead of me in points. He said prior to going into the 2005 season. 10 points 236,9 points 370, 8 points 229, 7 points 214, 6 points 246. I was not aware of 1,258 with 5 points which would be myself now having 6 points. 46 permits per year. If I did'nt get lucky on the random draw (1 in over 100)it would take me more than 40-50 years to draw unless alot of people with 6 points or more quit. I'm now 42. I wonder what kind of sheep hunting shape I would be in at 92 if I was still alive? I agree false hope in sometime drawing a sheep tag.
 
Anyone with 6 preference points or fewer in WY likely only began buying points when WY estabished the $7 points-only option in 2000. No wonder there's a mob at that level and below.

Fortunately, I began applying for my son in 1998, when you still had to send in the big application payment. He now has 8 points and is two years ahead of the mob. He's in his early 20's, and if he can get drawn within the next 20 years, he should be in good shape.

I have 10 points, one off max, because I was going on another sheep hunt in 1995 and like most guys, didn't know that Wyoming was going to implement their preference point system that year. It was that surprise that basically put Garth Carter and his newsletter in business.

I was surprised to find that there are 329 other "one off max" applicants like myself, which is discouraging. My only hope is that the attrition level will have to pick up at some point, both because of the new $100 preference point fee (OUCH!!! is right) and the fact that many of the holdovers from the 1995/1996 application pools have got to be getting older... like me.

At some point, the only guys drawing permits under the preference point system are going to be ancient, which will likely reduce the success rate on sheep hunts. The system has its flaws, but after 10 years in the process, I would hate to see WY move the goal-posts on those of us who have stuck it out this far.

Horned Toad
 
So a person with seven points, one more than the crowd, may still have to wait 20-25 years to draw which means $2,000-$2,500 dollars on bonus points. By then the tag will be up to $3,000. It will be a $5,000 hunt before a person with seven points even gets out the door of his house!
 
cozmo8, you are in a better position than me if you have seven points. I think you are alittle low on the price. A bonus point won't remain 100 doolars for 20-25 years. I doubt the sheep tag will be 3k in 20 years. New Mexico tag is already 3k. I'm thinking 5-10 k in 20 years. It is almost 2k currently. When 75% of tags goes to the highest points it makes it tough. I would buy a point for acouple years and see what happens if you are fairly young and can hunt sheep in 20 yrs. You never know you maybe the 1 in 100 to draw random. I wish I would have checked out how many hunters are ahead of me sooner. How many hunters drop out because of price or die prior to drawing is anybodys guess.
 
bschnoor-
When there isn't a chance you will EVER draw a WY tag because of the number of people ahead in points vs. the number of tags given out, even the die hards will fold. I am.

Lien2
 
I am 34, have 6 points for sheep, and plan to keep applying, I am in good shape and plan to always be. I wonder how long it will tkae me to reach the top? I am younger then most guys with points, BUT there are a lot of guys with 2-4 points then me. I suspect I am sure to draw by age 60, but that is a Loooonng time away.

Whatcha guys think? How long will it take me (ignoring random draw?) My guess in 20 years, I figure most guys are 40 ahead of me, that would make them 60, many will give or pass away (not to be morbid).

$100 is steep.
 
DonV... at 20 years, you're too optimistic. According to Wyoming G&F, there are currently 1,168 non-res applicants ahead of you with 7 to 11 preference points (www.gf.state.wy.us/downloads/pdf/TotalPreferencePoints05.pdf). It may take as long as 25 years to burn thru these applicants. Then there are 1,258 applicants with 6 points, like you. Assuming that you have average luck and draw in the middle of this group, that may take another 13 years. So you will be sheep hunting in Wyoming when you're 72!

More bad news to consider is that the applicant pool is not tending to spread evenly over all the sheep units, but rather is stacking up on the better units. I have 10 points, one off max, and ought to be able to get drawn in 6 to 7 years, based on the averages, but the time period required to draw one of the betters units, say either 3 or 5, might take twice as long.

Now, the good news is that the attrition rate, which has been very low over the past ten years, has to pick up. I'm in my mid-50's. By the time I draw, I'll probably be over 60. On my last tough sheep hunt several years ago, while humping 100+ lbs. of horns, hide and meat over several glaciers in Alaska's Wrangell-St. Elias mountains, I swore that I was done with sheep hunting... too damn old (I've killed 5 rams). The question I have to face now is whether I want to dump another $600 to $700 into WY for preference points, only to hunt as a 60+ year old for bighorns in steep ranges where, best case, I might tag a sub 170 ram. There will be a lot of guys facing that question, and not all will stay the course.

But then again... this is sheep hunting.

Hang in there, and good luck.

HornedToad
 
My mistake... if you are interested in connecting on that hyperlink to Wyoming G&F, do not put a "www" in front of the "gf".

HornedToad
 
Well, according to my math I'll be somewhere around 80 before I draw. Taking a loan and going to Alberta or hunting the unlimited areas a few times seems to make more sense than playing the waiting game. Gonna have to change my game plan on moose as well. Jason
 
Hoarned Toad - thanks for the info and you have done some sheep hunting!

I am more hoping, like you mention, many will drop out. If a guy is 45 now I would guess he might put in for 20 more years max - after that for one reason or another he will probably not be in the draw, and I will. If I apply until age 65 that gives me 32 more years, and I have 6 points now.

Bottom line is I hope to outlive most others, I have met very very few guys with points that are under age 40, and only one my age or younger.

I am hoping.

I am applying for later, less demanded bighorn hunts in CO with bow - reasonable odds (compared with anywhere else) so hopefully I can pull a tag there too! Also Utah for rocky pnts (no NR tags recently). MT too (even worse odds).

WY I figure if I stick with it and always try for the random tag too I should get a tag in my lifetime - applying to age 65 min.

I would give anyhthing to have started just a few years sooner but I was still in college and had no clue that getting these tags was anywhere near this hard or pricey. I would have coughed up the $7 per point from the beggining.

ah well

DonV Ohio
 
DonV,
I was thinking along the same lines as you. I'm 26, younger than most people with points I would guess. Anyone younger for the most part have points because their parents bought them at an early age because they were only $7 and those are the people who will drop out first. You gotta really want to hunt sheep to take the time to learn all about the various states and then pay hundreds or thousands each year in non-refundable fees. My income is only going rise so if I can get all the points in all the states I can, I will have the cash to hunt all of those states over the next 40 years.
 
No one said anything about suing WY. To think Taulman speaks for everyone is just plain wrong. All we are doing is having a discussion on the practicallity of purchasing a pref point for $100 when realistically it will do nothing for you unless you are close to the top of the PP ladder or plan to live (let alone hunt) until you are 100 yrs old. WY gives people a false hope of drawing with their 75/25 program and people are just letting other know. A true PP program (or even a 75/25) simply won't work on a scarce resource IMO.
 
"Better sick George Taulman on Wyoming Too!!"

IMO, Mr. Taulman and his greedy United States Outfitters have done more to hurt hunting and the non-resident hunter then all the SFW's(Special Interest For the Wealthy) combined.

Taulman is not representing the average Non-Resident, the only one He & USO are representing is their fat Wallets!
 
I think every Non-Resident should Boy-cott the state of Wyoming and STOP this once and for all!!! The state is simply STEALING all of the Money we have already paid for Points!!! I will NOT pay $100.00 for a POINT in ANY State!!! I will put the Money in a Raffle were you would at least have a chance to DRAW!!! GOOD LUCK AND GOOD BYE WYOMING!!!
 
I second Sliders thoughts. Remember when Colorado thought everyone out of state would want to buy a cow tag for 450$ ? they lost money that year when everyone told them to shove it up thier Arses. I say boycott WY, and Boycott the UT super convention in Salt Lake where they are pimping tags that should be in the normal draw.
Don V, save your money, go hunt now someplace else. Shop around for a Dall or stone sheep in BC or Alaska. At least you know you will actually get to use your money. This WY robbery is nothing more than a high dollar risk. As far as moose, you can do the same, hunt one NOW, for SURE, no guessing if you ever will draw before your health fails. Go to Newfoundland for under 3K for moose next year!
This will keep on going as long as you fund it. First the outfitters think they own the wilderness, now thier huunters will draw more tags because thier clients will be the only ones rich enough to beat the odds.
 
mdbrown,

No. You cannot opt out of the moose and bighorn preference point programs. They'll deduct it from your refund if you put in for the tag, not an option to not participate.
 
what percentage of people do you think will drop out? i only have 2 pts but threre is at least a little hope with the 25% random draw.
 
Not enough to make it worth staying in. Hell, i think everyone should boycott WY for this. I will not give them that kind of money just to play a game of "maybe someday i will draw a tag before i die or my knees fail" My advice is for the Sheep tag is quit now, you will never draw it in the next 15 years. Do you want to waste 1500 bucks on this?
 
I think the time and money spent in applying should go to the tag fee at the end......cuz if I spend 2500.00 over 25 years to draw and then have to pay say 5k, I might as well just go to Alberta right now!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-06 AT 12:29PM (MST)[p]Pred, exactly. And at least with alberta you can sit back and look at the mount on the wall for the next decade and think back about the hunt. A guy with only a couple of points in WY for sheep will enjoy it for a short time... if you are even in shape to hunt then. Hell i am 40 and you never know when a hip or knee will kill your hunting of this kind. Most guys would be better spening the cash elsewhere.
I may pay for the point for deer and lope and Elk because at least its reasonable that a guy will draw in a short time. Or will it?? Did you guys look closely at the sysyem? see my other post in the general section on my gripe on this.
 
Wouldn't it suck, if you invested thousands of dollars, and just before you got to the top pool, they changed the system? I am certain that they will eventually have to do away with preference for all really high demand hunts, as it is not fair to newcommers to force them to outlive other people to draw tags. It assures them of being very old if they ever do draw. When enough people ##### loud enough, the state will be forced to abandon true preference. It is like a good ole' boys club. Oh well, I have to stay in for sheep, as I am one off the top with ten points, and some nonresident pools are starting to clear. I think I can get out before it is changed or costs too much, but if I had a point or two less......
 
I'm folding and throwing in the cards.( 5 points ) Its a rich mans game and there is nothing any of us can do about it. Money has taken over and states through-out the country are throwing rocks at the average guy. I'm 46, I'll keep applying for premium elk but even that is getting out of hand...
 
It's a tuff choice. I have 6 points for moose and sheep and it looks like there's a whole lotta others in the same boat as me. I put apps in for 10 states and the cost is getting out of hand. I have to buy a license in AZ, ID, NEV, OR and CA. I'm thinking about just saving my money and going on a guided hunt, one that I don't need to draw a tag for, every other year. Atleast I'll know if I'm going hunting for sure. It's a tuff one after building points for the last 8-10yrs.
 
I also am in the 6 point pools for sheep & moose. Will stay with the moose because there are plenty of 6/7 point uits which can be drawn in 2-3 years even with all the $7 point buyers.

Remember, there are lots of guys like me, who have been buying $7 points for their kids because it was cheap. My kids are now out of the game with $75 & $100 points. They are not serious like me. I would not be surprised to see 50% drop out of the point pools, if not more.

Sheep will be a tough decision. I may stick this year just to see how many drop out. However, this is the ultimate screw job, having guys buy into a system for 6 years and more, then change the rules so dramatically. Many folks will be making $100 donations to WYF&G with the false impression that they will draw someday. The fact is most will die first.
 
Must be my luck that all the wealthy non residents are hunting deer and antelope in the same area's as me. You'll never see such a wide collection of newer trucks, campers and an endless supply of 4 wheelers these people bring in around here. I wonder if any of the groaners are the same people I'm talking about...
 
Triple_BB,
Maybe the states have made it too expensive for the average NR so they only people who can afford to hunt can also afford to buy those nice vehicles ;-)

I'm just messing with you LOL!
 
Hunters are funny aren't they. it used to be if you had the money to buy a conservation or landowner tag you were a rich jerk, now that so many states are ripping off the non res hunters if you can afford to hunt out of state you're a rich jerk. but if you can afford to go to the super bowl or a good NASCAR race the same bubba will give you a big thumbs up. we need to watch it or soon if you can afford to hunt at all you're a rich jerk. like it or not you pay to play and hunting is going that way faster than we like, better get used to it.
 
huntindude,

I couldn't have said it better. I hate paying for the points. However, if I can draw elk in 7 or 8 years it will be worth it.

I am actually glad that they went to the points system.
 
" couldn't have said it better. I hate paying for the points. However, if I can draw elk in 7 or 8 years it will be worth it.
"

Damn Right! I do feel sorry for those who didn't get in this year. I know know that I will hunt the unit I want someday, could never say that before.
 
I like the points, I typically apply for units with %5-15% odds, after 6 years no tag. Considering some guys will not pay the $50 I suspect I can get a decent tag in 5 years, if not that soon then 7 years. At least when I do not draw I get some help for the future. Anyone who did not get a point this year can forget good tags there for a long time. Great units will take 15 years minimum to clear out top point pool and drop down one point.

I also got a deer/lope point, I have wanted to do a rifle combo hunt in WY for deer/lope but with odds it was unlikely I would draw both tags the same year. Know I can wait until I have 1 more point then required and draw both tags for sure and hunt.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

B8BD0683-8535-47D8-976E-8DFAA37EF524.jpeg
PXL_20240308_224716626.jpg
jwb1.jpg
05669DF3-061C-4234-BE6F-5B5147A5C435.jpeg
Big Utah Bull
IMG_5890.jpeg
3AB7020D-5962-4046-AA07-92CD1C4A89E9.jpeg
C81CB109-A5C2-4C19-8A84-3D8696445977.jpeg
IMG_9792 copy.jpg
93F29953-E41F-4BB6-8567-ED7923C44962.jpeg
Screenshot_20230717_101726_Gallery.jpg
jwb2.jpg
Back
Top Bottom