Wyoming Sheep Pref Points

Cozmo8

Active Member
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638
It looks like only about 2,200 non-residents applied for sheep in Wyoming and at the end of last year over 7,000 non-residents had points. Either a lot are putting in for points only or alot are dropping out. The max point pool (14 after this 2008 draw) is down to 64 people at the most. Not all max point holders applied this year. It looks like attrition is still happening.
 
Cozmo8-

I sure hope you are right. I am a NR with 7 points including this year's drawing. But as you say the "points only" application period is yet to come. It would seem logical to me that the big dropout numbers would have shown up last year when those who didn't want to pay the $100 PP fee wnet out of the system.

But maybe big attrition is still going on....anyway,hope springs eternal!
 
Wishful thinking on your part I think...I'm waiting till July this year to give Wy my money.
 
It should be this year you see the drop, becasue you have to not apply for two years, I think, to lose your points. If that is the case we will be able to tell after the point apps this year. I did not apply last year, as I only have four points and now this year I have to decide if I am dropping out for sure. I am staying in on Moose, but I am just not sure that $100 is not better spent on raffle tickets for me and bighorn sheep.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-29-08 AT 11:14AM (MST)[p]My son and I each have 9 points for sheep. He has 9 moose pionts and I don't have any since I drew in 2002. We're both maxed on deer, elk and pronghorns. We're both going in for points only this year for everything in Wyoming.
 
Well SteveOz in my opinion it was not just wishful thinking. The new Bighorn Sheep and Moose preference point totals are out and not a lot of people dropped out but there are still some and interestingly in the max point pools.

Going into the 2008 draw there were 93 people with max points. 29 drew permits in the max point draw, that leaves 64. Well the new report says that there are only 55 applicants left. Either 9 people drew in the random (not very likely) or they dropped out. My calculations have 26 dropping out (not applying and not drawing) of max minus one pool and 16 dropping out of max minus 2 pool. Several years ago I figured it would be 23-26 years before I drew. It is now down to 14-18 years. I am 46 so this is still not an optimistic situation but the picture is getting a little brighter. Here are the top pools:

14 55
13 223
12 180
11 177
10 184
09 604
 
The rate of attrition for the NR sheep draw picked up considerably from 2007 to 2008. Based on my model, the average year to draw for each point class is:

PP. Year

14. 2009
13. 2012
12. 2015
11. 2017
10. 2019
09. 2023
08. 2027
07. 2030
06. 2033
05. 2035
04. 2037
03. 2039
02. 2040
01. 2042

The above model assumes that the attrition rate from 2007 to 2008 remains constant. Of course, this could change. With a tough economy, attrition rates could even increase.

From 2007 to 2008, the number of point holders from 8 pts. to 9 pts. decreased from 706 to 604. A few of these may have drawn in the random draw, but most gave up. By my model, of the 604 with 9 pts., about 400 more will eventually drop out, and 200 will eventually draw permits, with the average wait being 15 years, to 2023. If one were 45 years old, or less, that is not too bad.

Good luck with the 2009 draw!

HornedToad
 
I think your model is overly optimistic. The attrition rate will probably start leveling off in the top pools.

There are 55 people going into 2009 in the max pool and 45 permits for the max point holders that pool would not be exhausted this year. Unless 10 drop out or draw in the random or a combination of both. This past year only 29 in the max pool drew. Either some did not put in or they are dropping out.

There are 223 people in the max minus one pool. It will be very difficult to exhaust the 55 people in the max pool and 223 in the max minus one in four short years. We will know this time next year. But I hope you are correct.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-08 AT 08:53AM (MST)[p]

The model may be overly optimistic, but if anything, attrition rates, including those among the top pools, have been increasing, not "leveling off", over the past few years.

The attrition rate going into the 2009 draw is the highest ever, which makes sense, as more applicants come to terms with the fact that they could still wait 15 to 30 years for success in the preference point draw.

The dates given in the post earlier are for the year in which the average (i.e. median) applicant in a point pool could expect to draw... not the last person in the pool. For example, of the 55 applicants remaining in the MAX point pool (14 points going into 2009), my model predicts that 51 will draw permits (4 will eventually withdraw, or attrit), and of those 51, the 26th permit will be issued in 2009. If not 2009, then 2010. All predictive models based on assumptions are only approximate.

For the 223 applicants in the MAX-1 pool, the model predicts that 164 will draw permits and 59 will attrit. Of the 164, the median 82nd permit would be drawn in 2012, 4 years in the future, with the "final" permit in this pool drawn in 2015, or 7 years in the future. Of course, any prediction of the year for a "final" permit is only an estimate, because there is no limit on the number of years one could avoid drawing a permit by continuing to apply for preference points only.

In any modeling of this case, one of the most significant assumptions relates to the rate of attrition. If one wants to assume that attrition rates will be lower in the future than they are today, that would simply push the dates backward several years. It is my opinion that, if anything, we will see increasing attrition rates over the next several years, as more applicants, particularly those lured in during the years of the cheap $7 preference point payment, will realize that they will likely become too old, or will be dead, before they draw a permit with the current numbers of applicants chasing the few permits available.

It may seem unrealistic that 4 of the MAX point applicants and 59 of the MAX-1 applicants would attrit from the process, rather than holding on to draw a permit, but those numbers are reasonable given the approximately 5 to 6 MAX point applicants and 20 to 22 MAX-1 applicants who dropped out in 2008.

HornedToad
 
HornyT,
You amaze me with your statistical analysis and I too hope you are right. I started putting in my son when he was 12, which was 10 years ago. I am hoping that when he finally draws, I will still be able to hike and tag along.
I think you make a good point about the state of the economy and the ability for most average Joe's to keep dropping 100 bucks over a 20 year period. Who knows when that point fee will increase?
 
The problem with statistics is that they are a picture from the past.

I guess my goal is to be a "median" or earlier.

Keep in mind one of the reasons for the large attrition rate is this is the second or third year of the increase in price for the preference point and the increase in price for the permit. One has to not put in for two consecutive years to be dropped from the system. We are now currently seeing that.
 
The 2006 draw was the first with the increased $100 fee. Many expected a significant attrition in applicants going into the 2008 draw, after the two-year effect of not participating in the 2006 and 2007 draws. When that didn't happen, it appeared as though the $100 fee was not driving off many applicants, and that attrition rates would remain low.

With the increased attrition following the 2008 draw, it appears that many applicants ponied up the $100 for 2006, perhaps hoping to see others dropping out. When that did not happen, many chose not to participate in the 2007 draw, increasing the most recent reported attrition following the two-year wait through the 2008 draw.

Being on the front side of the "median" for a particular point class can mean having a lucky draw, but more often it means applying for one of the less favored units. The large majority of the recent MAX point applicants have stacked up on the most popular units, including 3, 4 and especially 5, leaving the weaker units to those with fewer points.

If one is intent on drawing a premium unit, it generally will mean being on the back side of the "median".

HornedToad
 
My analysis turned up pretty much the same scedule ar HT (not surprising since I got my numbers from him). Good info, I started, by coincidence, the year points started at $7 - I had just graduated college and looked into it. Wish I was in 1 year sooner. My guess is I will draw in 15-20 years, closer to 15, which is what HT shows.

Like HT said likely at that point there will be a TON of guys stacked up for best units, and nonwilderness units. I suspect it could easily take 10 more years for me to hit tougher units to draw. However, once I at least get into that draw my odds go way up.

I got lucky and drew a so-so CO bow ram tag this year, I gave it hell and got 1 shot on day 16, grazed sheep. I never thought I would fail to tag out with all the effort and time I put in hunting and preparing but I did. Lesson in humility. It will haunt me and now I really want one. Might be a long wait.

I hope to draw WY when I am retired (likely) so I can hunt bow season, I wanted one with bow BAD but will not use a rifle tag to bowhunt anywhere but WY (since I can hunt bow and rifle) so likely it is my ONLY other chance to take a rocky mnt bighorn DIY with bow - and redeem myself.

Does anyone know about WY sheep unit 5 - elk info? I will pull an elk tag there in 2009 and have found very few contacts for the unit I will hunt. I hope to see some sheep - I plan to backpack in like sheep hunters do - they see a lot of elk. I have actually found more elk info from sheep hunters then elk hunters in this area. PM me if you can help.
 
>The 2006 draw was the first
>with the increased $100 fee.
>Many expected a significant attrition
>in applicants going into the
>2008 draw, after the two-year
>effect of not participating in
>the 2006 and 2007 draws.
>When that didn't happen, it
>appeared as though the $100
>fee was not driving off
>many applicants, and that attrition
>rates would remain low.
>
>
>HornedToad

HT,
Across all point totals I see a drop from 10248 applicants to 7345 or 41% decrease going into the 2008 draw. his would be the first year you'd see the effects of the increae in PP fee. I'd say the 100 fee is the reason for this. Am I looking at the numbers wrong?

"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
 
In 2008 total number of non-resident sheep applicants with preference points was 7345. In 2009 it was 7284, a leveling off in my opinion. I am sure HT will throw a statistical analysis at us that it is not leveling off but actually decresing exponentially. It is about a 28% decrease from 2007 to 2009.
 
One change that could even the units around for nonresidents would be to get rid of the guides for nonresidents in the wilderness guide welfare rule. Then nonresidents would not be forced to stack up in the units with reasonable sheep access outside wilderness areas. Isn't the $2000+ tag, plus the stack of $100 points fees is not enough? Buying a guide on top of that pretty much puts it out of reach for most.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-08 AT 08:19PM (MST)[p]
Coz - Not to browbeat you with any statistics, but the total number of applicants in the pool is immaterial. What matters are the number of applicants who are ahead of or equal to your position in the queue. There could be a million applicants behind you, but they wouldn't matter to the timing of your draw of a permit.

For the 2007 draw, for the top three pools (12PP,11PP,10PP), the attrition rate of applicants was 7.6%. For 2008, this attrition rate (13PP,12PP,11PP) increased to 9.7%. These rates are substantially higher than for 2006 and earlier. Whether this will hold for the future, no one knows. But as for there being a "problem" with statistics, being that they are based on historical information, at least that provides a better basis for forecasting than the proverbial "wild ass guess".

In any event, this modeling is only for the use of those with an interest. If you have no interest, please move on to the next thread. If you want to provide an alternative forecast, please do so.

Good hunting!

HornedToad
 
Thanks HT. I guess it's a bit easier to figure for me now, with 13. Looks like preference tags will go to my pool for every hunt now if applicants are distributed close to the 08 #'s. I'll do my best to get my tag and out of your way ASAP.....And no need for to think about a second rate unit to get out quicker anymore. Shouldn't be too many years.

Another thing that is tough to project, along with rule changes, dieoffs. Sheep are prone to them, and it does happen. It would be more of an impact on nonresident wait if it happened in one of the few units with good non wilderness hunting. Guess all you can do is make your best projections on what you do know, not what can change. Just realize that you are buying a bit of an unknown when purchasing points....
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-08 AT 07:38PM (MST)[p]HT don't worry about "Browbeating" me with statistics. I understand the numbers very well that is why I started the thread. We pretty much know why the attrition rate is up the last few years. Most of us do not have to do a statistical model to know what is going on. A few numbers on the calculator will do it.

If you read this thread you will see I did do a forecast. I predict that I will draw in the next 14-18 years. This is based on current tag allocations and the number of applicants in front of me. Concrete factors that we know. I have 10 points going into the 2009 draw.

I believe your "modeling" is a "wild ass" guess. You are basing you guess on factors like a price increase for the permit and a Preference points(from the past). What are the odds of this happening in the near future? No one knows. I am using actuals not "maybes or possibles".
 
14 to 18 years to draw... and you're now 46. That would place you at 60 to 64 years old when you draw (let's say 62).

My guess is that an increasing number of applicants are dropping out of the system because they see the above scenario as poor odds.

While some sheep hunters will still be going gang-busters at 62 (I know a few), most by that age will have moved on to fly fishing... or whatever.

Anyway... to you... good news. If average attrition rates in the future remain at 2007 and 2008 levels, which I believe is more likely than other imagined projections, you should draw at 57 or 58.

Good luck!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-08 AT 08:57PM (MST)[p]Wouldn't the prospect of getting a sheep tag when you are old, and not before, provide more motivation to keep in shape, rather than make you quit? Perhaps it is a blessing in disguise. Honestly, $100 a year is sort of in the noise, 27 cents per day.
 
Elmer - I agree with you. One of the reasons I have stuck with sheep hunting is that it provides a motivation to stay fit that otherwise I wouldn't have.

But none of us lives forever. And none of us hunts sheep forever. Jack O'Connor went on his last sheep hunt at 72. He later admitted that he had "stayed too long at the party", and that with the "iron" gone from his legs, he never went sheep hunting again. Sadly, this fate awaits us all... (but only the lucky ones make it that far).

Even Coz admitted that his calculations, prior to this year, pointed to a 20+ year wait for a WY NR sheep permit... unless the rate of attrition picked up... which it has, as more applicants come to grip with the thought that a bighorn permit obtained at age 70+ may not be the prize once assumed when one was much younger.

In this respect, we sheep hunters battle our own "biological clock", as we wait out the years for our WY preference point permit. But sheep hunters are born optimists, and many remain convinced that the aging process is something that only catches up with the "other guy".

As long as you've got it... keep goin'.

HornedToad
 
Elmer,
For what it is worth, I hunted a wilderness area with a guide in 04 and the guide fee of $4500 still made my hunt cheap compared to buying an Alberta tag. Beside the fact that, while I am a very seasoned western hunter, I could have never found the sheep that they put me on, much less put together the 7 horses, tack, and camp gear needed for a 15 mile trip into the back country. Oh and then there were the Grizzly Bears that came into camp and would have torn it apart had their not been a camp tender there. And the bear proof paniards, etc. etc.
It sounds crazy, but having a licensed outfitter was the only way 99% of us would ever make that hunt successful.
IMHO
 
littlebighorn,
Good or not for you is not the issue. Why should the state assume a resident s more capabile of handling a wilderness hunt han a nnresident, and require a guide for nonresidents? It is strictly in place to assure nonresidents will hire a guide, a strictly economic issue. WY is the sole lower 48 state with such a rule. I know tag issusance and dstribution is a state issue, but the guide requirement is BS guide wefare. And the widerness is all federal land. Nonresdents are free to kill themseves in any other way but hunting there.....
 
I agree Elmer. Can fish in the wilderness. Hunt small game in the wilderness. Can't hunt big game. It would be great if the rule changed. This has been discussed before.
 
I hunted sheep in Wyoming this year and shot a great ram. If I wasn't required to hire an outfitter I would have gone on my own.

That being said, hiring an outfitter was the best choice for me. I'm fairly experienced in the backcountry yet I think I would have been over my head in this country. Work side jobs, beg, steal or do whatever it takes to come up with the $8500 and go enjoy your hunt.
 

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