Wyoming Wildlife Taskforce Silence

[highfastflyer]

“Wildlife Taskforce Update? Anyone? Anyone?
It's still crickets from the G&F Department on this new Taskforce which is supposedly going to tackle and magically solve all of these controversial tag allocation, point system and other issues. I've left several messages with Sen. Hicks - who has a seat on the task force - for any information but have not heard back. His intention is to bring another 90/10 bill forward in December for the January 2022 session. This Spring, the Senate Wildlife Committee and weaklings on the G&F Commission punted resident preference issues to this outfitter-dominated "Taskforce."

It's a smart political game by the WYOGA ... not admitting to the press they oppose 90/10 outrightThis is what WYOGA President Sy Gilliand - who was appointed to the Task Force by his buddy Governor Gordon and fellow Outfitter, G&F Commission Chair Dube, told the Cheyenne Tribune-Eagle ...

"As for SF 103, Gilliland said his association was primarily opposed to the bill because a newly formed group, the Wyoming Wildlife Taskforce, plans to review the same issues over the next 18 months. Some business-focused groups also raised concerns about advancing the bill.

“It was certainly premature and not appropriate to deal with that legislatively when there was going to be an exhaustive effort spent for 18 months by several stakeholder groups to study this very topic,” Gilliland said."

This is funny, as Gilliand, and fellow outtfitter and Taskforce member Lee Livingston, testified to the Senate Wildlife Committee in March that they both opposed 90/10 outright. My guess is the WYOGA sees the momentum behind 90/10 building and trying everything to delay this change.”

116 Sheep, Bison, Goat and Moose Tags went to nonresidents this year because Wyoming treats its resident hunters like dirt. — 307Hunter.com

Yep - unsuccessful at the Sheep, Moose, Goat and Bison draw again ... and given point creep and my advancing age (52) - I'll never draw one of these tags in my lifetime. But, if we could get Wyoming's License Tag Allocation changed to 90/10, at least 110+ of these once-in-a-lifetime tags, currentl

www.307hunter.com

 

[Bookhead]

Will they be looking into buffer zones at all?

 

[highfastflyer]

Will they be looking into buffer zones at all?

Doubtful the Taskforce will but certainly the majority of hunters now support it. These numbers were from the 2012 surveys. It is even higher now with decreasing mule deer numbers.
“Limiting hunters in the field—Despite the finding above that a majority think it is
important to hunt every year, a large majority of mule deer hunters (65%) support limiting the number of hunters in the field, even if it would make it less likely that they would draw a license; meanwhile, 26% oppose.”

Another interesting response.

“Nearly half of Wyoming mule deer hunters (47%) say that the quality of their deer hunting over the past 5 years has gotten worse. Otherwise, 44% give a neutral answer (the same, 34%; don’t know, 10%), and only 9% say it has improved.”


https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/Mule Deer Initiative/WYMD_HUNTEROPINIONSURVEY_FINAL0003280.pdf

 

[jm77]

“Wildlife Taskforce Update? Anyone? Anyone?
It's still crickets from the G&F Department on this new Taskforce which is supposedly going to tackle and magically solve all of these controversial tag allocation, point system and other issues. I've left several messages with Sen. Hicks - who has a seat on the task force - for any information but have not heard back. His intention is to bring another 90/10 bill forward in December for the January 2022 session. This Spring, the Senate Wildlife Committee and weaklings on the G&F Commission punted resident preference issues to this outfitter-dominated "Taskforce."

It's a smart political game by the WYOGA ... not admitting to the press they oppose 90/10 outrightThis is what WYOGA President Sy Gilliand - who was appointed to the Task Force by his buddy Governor Gordon and fellow Outfitter, G&F Commission Chair Dube, told the Cheyenne Tribune-Eagle ...

"As for SF 103, Gilliland said his association was primarily opposed to the bill because a newly formed group, the Wyoming Wildlife Taskforce, plans to review the same issues over the next 18 months. Some business-focused groups also raised concerns about advancing the bill.

“It was certainly premature and not appropriate to deal with that legislatively when there was going to be an exhaustive effort spent for 18 months by several stakeholder groups to study this very topic,” Gilliland said."

This is funny, as Gilliand, and fellow outtfitter and Taskforce member Lee Livingston, testified to the Senate Wildlife Committee in March that they both opposed 90/10 outright. My guess is the WYOGA sees the momentum behind 90/10 building and trying everything to delay this change.”

116 Sheep, Bison, Goat and Moose Tags went to nonresidents this year because Wyoming treats its resident hunters like dirt. — 307Hunter.com

Yep - unsuccessful at the Sheep, Moose, Goat and Bison draw again ... and given point creep and my advancing age (52) - I'll never draw one of these tags in my lifetime. But, if we could get Wyoming's License Tag Allocation changed to 90/10, at least 110+ of these once-in-a-lifetime tags, currentl

www.307hunter.com

Can we expect you to attend these meetings to comment?

 

[highfastflyer]

Can we expect you to attend these meetings to comment?

Certainly, I often attend in my part of the state. I also support 307hunter who often speaks out. I recommend you support this also. https://www.307hunter.com/take-action

 

[Ultimag]

I dont have,a,dogin this,fight as I hunt 100% private in the,11,states,we,hunt every year BUT Anybody,willing to bet this can of worms,gets kicked down the road or is,already a dead,subject hence the,silence.

 

[Ultimag]

Nearly half of Wyoming mule deer road hunters (47%) say that the quality of their deer hunting over the past 5 years has gotten worse. Otherwise, 44%,of,semi road hunters that at least attempt to get 2miles,from the road with their,sxs, give a neutral answer (the same, 34%; don’t know, 10%), and only 9%, true,die hard those that,actually hike more then 2 miles,from the road,their vehicle or,sxs, say it has improved.” ???????
Sounds,about right

 

[highfastflyer]

Nearly half of Wyoming mule deer road hunters (47%) say that the quality of their deer hunting over the past 5 years has gotten worse. Otherwise, 44%,of,semi road hunters that at least attempt to get 2miles,from the road with their,sxs, give a neutral answer (the same, 34%; don’t know, 10%), and only 9%, true,die hard those that,actually hike more then 2 miles,from the road,their vehicle or,sxs, say it has improved.” ???????
Sounds,about right

You drive your side by side around on private property and gun down does and fawns, we understand that. Maybe you should try the Nursery forum, you might have something worthwhile to contribute, though they probably would be disgusted there also.

 

[Bookhead]

I didn't think the task force has even had their first meeting yet thats most likely why they don't have much to say. Just a guess

 

[WapitiBob]

If I need to go 2 miles from the road to kill a Deer in WY, I picked the wrong hunt area.

 

[Ultimag]

If I need to go 2 miles from the road to kill a Deer in WY, I picked the wrong hunt area.

It,was,sarcasm with some truth mixed in I'm very familiar with Wyoming

 

[DM770]

Are nonresidents to blame for the hunting issues in Wyoming? It seems like in an system if the resident pool of people grows that will impact the system at a greater level. I get no being happy to see out of state hunters having success in your back yard as well. Like it or not OTC tags will have to come to an end at some point.

 

[Ultimag]

I,don't see them doing away with OTC for residents they would lose,to much money
Lot of sportsman just can't afford the,cost
Of L/E L/Q,TAGS app fees,etc residents,pay taxes, spend their money in local businesse they deserve OTC licences,
more then hunting pressure causing mule deer decline,but most just don't want to accept that

 

[elks96]

Are nonresidents to blame for the hunting issues in Wyoming? It seems like in an system if the resident pool of people grows that will impact the system at a greater level. I get no being happy to see out of state hunters having success in your back yard as well. Like it or not OTC tags will have to come to an end at some point.

90/10 is not about causing issues. it is about setting a system in which residents have ample opportunity. Especially in hard to draw and very limited tags. Quality of hunting and quality of deer is not really the point of 90/10 at all. That would be a different discussion and push all together.

As for the General tags, that can be sustainable if we limit NR tags and if we are smart about other management decisions.

 

[nripepi]

As for the General tags, that can be sustainable if we limit NR tags and if we are smart about other management decisions.

I think the point of DM770 is that at some point in time it cannot be sustainable as you could cut non-residents to zero tags and if resident numbers and hunters continue to increase it will not be sustainable (unless the deer and elk population increases or success rates decrease significantly). I think the question is when does that happen...1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 20 or 100? The time will come, but it might be decades away.

 

[Chesterwyo]

I dont have,a,dogin this,fight as I hunt 100% private in the,11,states,we,hunt every year BUT Anybody,willing to bet this can of worms,gets kicked down the road or is,already a dead,subject hence the,silence.

Name the eleven states you hunt every year.

 

[highfastflyer]

I think the point of DM770 is that at some point in time it cannot be sustainable as you could cut non-residents to zero tags and if resident numbers and hunters continue to increase it will not be sustainable (unless the deer and elk population increases or success rates decrease significantly). I think the question is when does that happen...1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 20 or 100? The time will come, but it might be decades away.

The elk population has exploded and continues to thrive way over objective. We can now take 3 elk per year per Hunter and we still can’t keep up with the explosive growth. The past decade was called by biologists as the Decade of the elk. Many of the areas I hunted 40+ years ago it was rare to see an elk. Nowadays every basin is full of elk. The Hunter numbers aren’t the problem at current in Wyoming. Less people hunt nowadays than the past and we even recruit young kids to try and increase hunter support and aquisition of new hunters but we can’t keep up with the thriving elk growth. The issue here is the fair and equitable distribution of limited quota licenses. Almost every surrounding state only allows 10% of the premium tags to go to non-residents. We are simply asking for a similar system in our state like we are subject to when we hunt as non-residents in surrounding states, especially when it comes to moose, Bighorn sheep and Mt. goats. https://www.wyofile.com/decade-of-the-elk-for-hunters-as-herds-top-goals-by-32/

 

[jm77]

Interesting read:

Wyoming Wildlife Task Force Initial Meeting Finally some info on the Wyoming Wildlife Task Force's (WWTF) first meeting. It will be held in Casper, June 16-17, at the Hilton Garden Inn. Day 1 will run from 9-4. Day 2 from 8-12. Tod Larson, the WDGF Chief of Policy and Planning, is the point person at the Department. I've asked to get on his email list for all the WWTF materials ... we'll see if he adds us. The June agenda is still being developed, but in an administration memo sent to the WWTF at the end of April, he described summarized the initial WWTF meeting goals as: "organize, select Task Force leadership, establish ground rules, identify potential issues for the Task Force to address, prioritize these issues, and set future meeting dates." I spoke to Sen. Hicks yesterday. He's on the WWTF and says nothing has been decided so far on how decisions will be made, voting, etc. He will push for 90/10 to be prioritized in terms of issues to be addressed, but expects the 4 outfitters appointed to the WWTF, plus their 5 other landowner and other allies on the WWTF, to bring up transferable landowner tags, public access issues, point system changes, etc. to delay action. Because 90/10 will be competing with all these other issues in terms of WWTF priority, he has low expectations. The WWTF supposedly has a year to address all these issues, and develop recommendations next summer. I've calculated that if 90/10 changes were left up to the task force recommendations, it would be 2023 at the earliest, until changes were made. Sen. Hicks changed that to 2024 at the earliest, given the nonresident draw deadlines, etc. I verified with him he will continue to bring forward 90/10 Bills to the Legislature along the way, including this coming December for the January 2022 session. "We'll keep bringing it every year," he said. My expectations are low for WWTF recommendations to benefit resident hunters in terms of 90/10 given the way it's stacked with outfitters and landowners who make money from outfitters leases. Sen. Hicks did say that another WWTF member, Joe Schafer, President of Laramie Community College in Cheyenne, is a strong ally of resident hunters. Again, my current position is the only way we're going to get 90/10 in Wyoming is through the Legislature. Like the G&F Commissioner, members of the WWTF are unaccountable - and at lease we can hold State Reps and Senators accountable at the ballot box. Sen. Hicks shared a couple informational video links sent out to the WWTF members by the G&F as background info. These are both detailed, 40-minute plus long videos, and very informative. 1) Impacts of Changing the Antelope Initial Draw One of the G&F department's concerns with 90/10 included effects on the management of antelope herds in central and eastern Wyoming. Because of the predominance of private land on the eastern side, many of the initial draw antelope and deer resident tags go unpurchased, as resident hunters are hesitant to pay landowners or outfitters for hunting access. So, these tags end up in nonresident hunters hands and is one of the reasons more Wyoming antelope tags are sold to nonresidents every year, than residents. Sen. Hicks worked with the G&F extensively on this issue in drafting this year's 90/10 bill, SF103. The simple solution was to dictate that 90% of all limited quota big game tags (including antelope) would go to resident hunters in the "initial draw." This way, the antelope tags not purchased by residents in eastern Wyoming would be offered to nonresidents. 2) Wyoming Game & Fish Elk Initial Draw Wyoming's Elk Draw system for nonresidents is exceedingly complicated - as you'll see if you watch this video and see the flow chart built which outlines the process. One interesting thing about 2020 applications, is the resident hunter applications for limited quota elk were up 8%, and the nonresident applications were down 9%. Did Livingston "Game" his Application to the WWTF? We understand that Lee Livingston, who was appointed to the WWTF as a "county commissioner" (he's a CC in Park County), possibly hid his occupation as an outfitter, including membership on the WYOGA board, in his application for the WWTF. Apparently he openly discussed applying to the WWTF as a "county commissioner" instead of an outfitter at a WYOGA Board meeting, to increase the WYOGA influence on the WWTF, and this discussion was documented in WYOGA board meeting minutes. I haven't seen these meeting minutes to verify, but if it occurred, they would be from a late 2020 WYOGA board meeting - likely November or December, 2020. If anyone has copies of these minutes, please email them to me. Ethics Complaint Vs. Former G&F Commissioners Rael and Crank Though my nonprofit, Mountain Pursuit, I formally sent and ethics complaint to Governor Gordon's office concerning former G&F Commissioners Dave Rael and Pat Crank for accepting a gift of "weekend lodging and a guided rafting trip" from the Wyoming Outfitters and Guides Association in January - an Rael and Crank's last meeting. As I understand the state's ethics process, for ethics concerns within the executive branch have to be reported to the Governor, who investigates. Below is the pertinent text from my letter to Governor Gordon: ***************** 1. Specific to this issue, according to the January 2021, Game & Fish Commission Meeting Minutes, Sy Gilliland, President of the Wyoming Outfitters and Guides Association (WYOGA), presented outgoing G&F Commissioners David Rael and Pat Crank, "with a special certificate that included weekend lodging and a guided rafting trip." At the time of the WYOGA gift presentation and acceptance, both Rael and Crank were still members of the G&F Commission and had voted on issues at this same January meeting. In addition, Commissioner Rael donated one of his 2021 Commissioner Complimentary Licenses to the Wyoming Outfitters & Guides Association, and earlier in January, Crank was appointed to and currently serves on the Wyoming Wildlife Taskforce. As you know, the WYOGA and its members have a vested, financial interest in decisions made by both the Wyoming Game & Fish Commission and the new Wyoming Wildlife Taskforce. We believe acceptance of this significant financial gift from the WYOGA by Mr. Rael and Mr. Crank is a conflict of interest, clearly improper, and violates Executive Order 1997-4 and the Wyoming State Statutes. Specifically, acceptance of this gift of "weekend lodging and a guided rafting trip" by Commissioners Rael and Crank is a direct violation of C(i) of the Executive Order 1997-4, which states .... C. .... "Activities incompatible with the public employee's duties include, but are not necessarily limited to: i. Accepting any fee, compensation, gift, payment of expense or any other thing of monetary value in circumstances which create the appearance of a conflict of interest or impropriety, whether or not such conflict of interest or impropriety actually exists." 2. In addition the acceptance of the WYOGA "weekend lodging and guided rafting trip" gift by Commissioners Rael and Crank violates Wyoming State Stature 9-13-103 (a) and (b): (a) No public official, public member or public employee shall use his office or position for his private benefit. (b) As used in this section, "private benefit" means the receipt by the public official, public member or public employee of a gift which resulted from his holding that office. Mountain Pursuit requests that you or your designee investigate the acceptance of the WYOGA gift by Mr. Rael and Mr. Crank as an ethics violation. We appreciate your attention to this matter. Please keep us abreast of your investigation. ********************* All for now.... Respectfully, - Rob Shaul

​

 

[Ultimag]

Mountain pursuit is,a joke

 

[jm77]

Mountain pursuit is,a joke

Tell me what's funny about that post. Be specific please.

 

[Ultimag]

Hopefully wyoga does not mess up.your point system and,non resident tags like they just,did in montana,

 

[Chesterwyo]

Hopefully wyoga does not mess up.your point system and,non resident tags like they just,did in montana,

Again. I’m curious about the eleven states you hunt every year. How exactly does a person go about doing that? And what states are they?

 

[grosventrehunter]

Mountain, pursuit,is,a,joke!" Do,tell,please.

 

[highfastflyer]

Mountain pursuit is,a joke

What is certainly a joke is watching a highly politicised Outfitter Welfare task force try and grab transferable landowner licenses and guaranteed tags to supplement and line the pockets of wealthy landowners and Outfitters joining together to steal from the average Wyoming Joe public hunter. Any CWMU type system should be monitored and a State Watchdog Czar placed over it to ensure fairness and equitable treatment. 307hunter is doing the best he can with limited time and financial backing to stand up for residents hunting rights. Those relying on Outfitters to save the day need to look in the mirror and remember the Wilderness carve out for non-residents. Without serious policing and citizen involvement like 307hunter is performing we will end up with whatever scraps the Outfitting Association discards for the Average Joe public citizen. Buyer Beware!!!

 

[treedagain]

So are you saying 2024 for 90/10?

 

[elks96]

I am not a fan of MTN Pursuits. But after a lengthy conversation with Rob, and clarification on how he is handling the 307Hunter group. I feel confident in supporting 307Hunter. After researching and looking at the groups. I feel confident that any efforts and donations made to 307Hunter will be used only for fighting the 90/10 in WY.

I have to agree to disagree with MTN Pursuits on a few of their platforms. Simply put I am not in favor of any hunting group that is actively lobbying against a legal regulated hunting method. We have enough people to fight with out having to fight our own.

It was interesting to see the article above. I had arrived at a similar conclusion... The Task Force is not representative of sportsmen at all. It heavily weighted in favor of profits and special interest. The only way they will even look at 90/10 will be with excessive pressure from the public (not likely to happen) or through legislature.

There is not doubt that the WYOGA is poised to make a major power play with the task force, and the only way we can combat that right now seems to be through legislation.

Hopefully we can unite in this area and make some real progress.

 

[highfastflyer]

Hopefully we can unite in this area and make some real progress.

Totally agree. This is the one time to circle the wagons and unite. This Task force is a big unknown and will require considerable monitoring. Resident hunters need to unite or we will wind up with Outfitter welfare and guaranteed transferable licenses for rich landowners, all at the expense of Joe Q. Public hunter.

 

[jm77]

I feel confident that any efforts and donations made to 307Hunter will be used only for fighting the 90/10 in WY.

You mean fighting for 90/10 I think.

 

[elks96]

You mean fighting for 90/10 I think.

Yes. Good catch. Fighting for 90/10.

 

[treedagain]

Looks like a up hill battle for 90/10?
And a real possibility for transferable tags?

 

[treedagain]

Looks like a up hill battle for 90/10?
And a real possibility for transferable tags?

Whats so funny Buzz? Real question.

 

[AZNATIVE98]

As a NR I totally except what ever Wyoming decides but it seems like to me if the residents are hoping the legislature will be their saving grace on the 90/10 split you're screwed. Has a bill ever even got close to passing or even make it out of committee?

 

[BuzzH]

As a NR I totally except what ever Wyoming decides but it seems like to me if the residents are hoping the legislature will be their saving grace on the 90/10 split you're screwed. Has a bill ever even got close to passing or even make it out of committee?

yes.

 

[quest]

I don’t see it happening

 

[highfastflyer]

I don’t see it happening

These states already have it, I don’t see it Not happening, it’s just a matter of time.
“Idaho, Montana, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, etc., already have 90/10 allocation, or better, for their resident hunters. Colorado is 90/10 for Moose, Sheep and Mt. Goats.

116 Sheep, Bison, Goat and Moose Tags went to nonresidents this year because Wyoming treats its resident hunters like dirt. https://www.307hunter.com/articles/...wyoming-treats-its-resident-hunters-like-dirt​

 

[delmag1942]

These states already have it, I don’t see it Not happening, it’s just a matter of time.
“Idaho, Montana, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, etc., already have 90/10 allocation, or better, for their resident hunters. Colorado is 90/10 for Moose, Sheep and Mt. Goats.

116 Sheep, Bison, Goat and Moose Tags went to nonresidents this year because Wyoming treats its resident hunters like dirt. https://www.307hunter.com/articles/...wyoming-treats-its-resident-hunters-like-dirt​

I personally do not care what each individual state does as it relates to NR quotas, however comparing Wyoming with the other 90/10 states is not apples to apples. None of the others allow residents to hunt elk and deer each and every year in some of the best units in the state. In addition, NM is not a 90/10 state.

 

[Bookhead]

I personally do not care what each individual state does as it relates to NR quotas, however comparing Wyoming with the other 90/10 states is not apples to apples. None of the others allow residents to hunt elk and deer each and every year in some of the best units in the state. In addition, NM is not a 90/10 state.

What does our general tags have to do with 90/10? I wouldn't be so confident this isnt going away

 

[treedagain]

Looks like a up hill battle for 90/10?
And a real possibility for transferable tags?

Very real possibility that both of these are true.
Just a couple of ostrich with their heads in the sand?

 

[highfastflyer]

I personally do not care what each individual state does as it relates to NR quotas, however comparing Wyoming with the other 90/10 states is not apples to apples. None of the others allow residents to hunt elk and deer each and every year in some of the best units in the state. In addition, NM is not a 90/10 state.

New Mexico only offers 6% of the tags to a DIY Non-resident Hunter. Even more reason for Wyoming to go 90/10.
“6 percent to nonresidents who have not contracted with an outfitter”

Draw Info, Odds & Success Tips - New Mexico Department of Game & Fish

New Mexico’s big game drawing is subject to a quota system. Information found here on how the draw works, draw odds and report summaries, and success tips.

www.wildlife.state.nm.us

 

[highfastflyer]

Very real possibility that both of these are true.
Just a couple of ostrich with their heads in the sand?

Certainly the latter is.

 

[jm77]

Anyone who thinks some form of 90/10 isn't going to happen in Wyoming was not watching the Travel, Rec & Wildlife Committee meeting on it at this years Legislature.

 

[elks96]

Anyone who thinks some form of 90/10 isn't going to happen in Wyoming was not watching the Travel, Rec & Wildlife Committee meeting on it at this years Legislature.

I agree. We just need to push and organize. While being uniform in the opposition to any landowner voucher systems or increased outfitter well fare.

 

[grosventrehunter]

We also need to vote out those who opposed the 90/10 split.

 

[nripepi]

New Mexico only offers 6% of the tags to a DIY Non-resident Hunter. Even more reason for Wyoming to go 90/10.
“6 percent to nonresidents who have not contracted with an outfitter”

Draw Info, Odds & Success Tips - New Mexico Department of Game & Fish

New Mexico’s big game drawing is subject to a quota system. Information found here on how the draw works, draw odds and report summaries, and success tips.

www.wildlife.state.nm.us

They totally screwed NR DIY hunters and many non-res stopped applying there and it also allowed many smaller outfitters to pop-up to take advantage of the 10% allocation to outfitters. I am sure WYOGA would be thrilled with the same allocation, would you be happy with 84/10/6 split?

The only group without a voice (non-res DIY) will likely to be the ones to lose out in the long-run in all states, their only hope is to be saved by the outfitters themselves which is ironic. Wyoming is different in New Mexico though because of the bonus point structure that people have been paying into for decades for a better chance at drawing, at up to or over $400 per year, so there's that as well. What to do about that?

 

[jims]

I bet the Wyo outfitters would be excited to match neighboring state of Colo’s 35% limited elk, deer, and antelope tags and unlimited elk tags in otc units! The wg&f’s revenue would also go through the roof. Small town communities would thrive with all the new business!

 

[Conrad8899]

And theres jims still beating the drum for Colorado again.... I wouldnt pay $300.00 for a otc elk tag let alone $688.26... A general Wyoming elk tag is worth twice as much as a Colorado otc elk tag... This years draw proofs that there was nonresident burning 11 to 3.5 points to draw and the special tag was 7 points to 2.5 points to draw.... Keep Ur OTC Colorado orange army tag.... U keep forgetting this is Wyoming not Colorado....

 

[highfastflyer]

They totally screwed NR DIY hunters and many non-res stopped applying there and it also allowed many smaller outfitters to pop-up to take advantage of the 10% allocation to outfitters. I am sure WYOGA would be thrilled with the same allocation, would you be happy with 84/10/6 split?

The only group without a voice (non-res DIY) will likely to be the ones to lose out in the long-run in all states, their only hope is to be saved by the outfitters themselves which is ironic. Wyoming is different in New Mexico though because of the bonus point structure that people have been paying into for decades for a better chance at drawing, at up to or over $400 per year, so there's that as well. What to do about that?

With Outfitters, large landowners and hotel owners, how do you think this group will treat hunters opting for Outfitted hunts vs. Public DIY hunters?

• Tony Lehner - Converse County Commissioner, landowner
• Duaine Hagen - Park County landowner
• Representative Jamie Flitner - Big Horn County
• Representative Albert Sommers - Sublette County
• Adam Teten - Johnson County sportsman
• Joe Schaffer - Laramie County sportsman, President of Laramie County Community College
• Rusty Bell - Campbell County Commissioner, Taxidermist, Sportsman
• Sy Gilliland - President of Wyoming Outfitter and Guides Association
• Elissa Ruckle - Owner of Elevate Wyoming
• Senator Ogden Driskill - Crook County and Rancher/Landowner
• Senator Larry Hicks - Carbon County
• Liisa Anselmi-Dalton - Sweetwater County hotel owner
• Jen Scoggin - Director Office of State Lands and Investments
• Lee Livingston - Park County Commissioner and Outfitter
• Josh Coursey - Sweetwater County, Executive Director of the Muley Fanatics Foundation
• Pat Crank - Laramie County sportsman, outgoing Wyoming Game and Fish Commissioner
• Pete Dube - Johnson County, President of the Wyoming Game and Fish Commission and Outfitter
• Brian Nesvik - Director of the Wyoming Game and Fish Department
• https://wgfd.wyo.gov/News/Game-and-Fish-announces-members-of-Wyoming-Wildlif

 

[jims]

It's sad how it's usually the DIY nonres hunters that usually get screwed! This exact thing happened in Colo when the CPW took a chunk of public tags and offered them in the "landowner tag" draw.

Conrad....your comments regarding OTC elk tags in Colo make sense but you have admit there are a gob on nonres hunters that hunt Colo elk every year. There are some nice bulls harvested every year by the same OTC DIY nonres hunters every year that are willing to put in the time and boot leather!

Conrad, take a look at the B&C listings of booner muley bucks that have come out of Colo the past 15 years compared to Wyo. There is no comparison! Colo nonres have a great thing going having the opportunity to draw 35% of limited deer, elk, and antelope tags!

 

[Conrad8899]

jims U are right about Colorado deer Ill give U that... But those days will be coming to a end with the new season dates pushed so late now.... Could U imagine if Wyoming would let hunters hunt deer from the end of October to the end of November in every area in the state.. jims its just a matter of time before Colorado go LQ or a cap on all elk tags...

 

[jims]

Conrad, I agree with you 100% that it is a shame what the CPW is doing to Colo mule deer! They have blinders on and are putting the blame on tag numbers/late hunts on CWD! You are right that Colo's OTC elk is in the same quandary as Wyo res mule deer. I'm all for opportunity but there comes a point where it's impossible to manage a limited natural resource and hunting pressure with unlimited tags.

I also think it's great that Colo offers nonres 35% of most limited elk, deer, and antelope tags!

 

[nripepi]

I guess we will find out soon. I am sure they care about as much about the DIY NR as residents do. Really the only chance the DIY NR has is the WYG&F and accountants that look at the books closely and all the money coming in from preference points and licenses. I guess we better burn our points soon.

With Outfitters, large landowners and hotel owners, how do you think this group will treat hunters opting for Outfitted hunts vs. Public DIY hunters?

 

[Conrad8899]

This is where we disagree Colorado should not be giving nonresidents 35% LQ elk deer and antelope tags... Colorado should be giving 90% of all LQ tags... Every state should take care of there residents before nonresidents...

 

[highfastflyer]

Colorado is already 90/10 when it comes to Moose, Bighorn Sheep and Mt. goats. When the wolves start plundering the game herds soon I am sure they will soon be on elk and deer.

Wyoming residents care about non-resident DIY hunters the same as most of our surrounding states do. This is why we are merely attempting to get what most surrounding states offer, a 90/10 system. After all, we are the EQUALITY state.

 

[nripepi]

Colorado is already 90/10 when it comes to Moose, Bighorn Sheep and Mt. goats. When the wolves start plundering the game herds soon I am sure they will soon be on elk and deer.

Wyoming residents care about non-resident DIY hunters the same as most of our surrounding states do. This is why we are merely attempting to get what most surrounding states offer, a 90/10 system. After all, we are the EQUALITY state.

Isn't it bait and switch when nr diy are paying $400+ per year in preference points for better odds for 2 decades and you want to sweep the rug out from under them? I understand everyone wants their fair share of tags and residents want 90/10, but when one group pays more to manage the resource and has no voice, those people have the right to be frustrated. Everyone in this discussion is right. It is a really difficult situation to get correct, maybe 85/15 would be a compromise?

 

[highfastflyer]

Isn't it bait and switch when nr diy are paying $400+ per year in preference points for better odds for 2 decades and you want to sweep the rug out from under them? I understand everyone wants their fair share of tags and residents want 90/10, but when one group pays more to manage the resource and has no voice, those people have the right to be frustrated. Everyone in this discussion is right. It is a really difficult situation to get correct, maybe 85/15 would be a compromise?

Nothing long term was ever promised or guaranteed. Besides many of those points early on were purchased at a mere $7 bucks a point. When almost every surrounding Western state now offers a 90/10, isn’t it only equitable Wyoming residents should receive that same fairness and equitable distribution in their own state? Wyoming still wants and needs Non-resident hunters, especially those willing to hunt cow elk, antelope and whitetail deer but the premium Limited quota tags as most surrounding states now distribute should be mostly reserved for the Residents. We only seek fairness and equity as we are reciprocally treated as Non-residents when hunting surrounding states. A compromise would be a reciprocity plan. What is likely going to happen here with this heavily Outfitter dominated Task Force is 15% may be reserved for Non-Residents but 10% will go to Outfitter sponsored hunters and only 5% left for DIY non-residents. Now how will Non-residents feel about Outfitters looking out for their interests? Remember the Wilderness carve out, it’s soon to be the same with license numbers for Outfitter sponsored hunts in Wyoming. I can see those fully outfitted elk hunts jump to $10,000 overnight as this task force starts its first meetings.

 

[wyoflythrower]

I’m all for 90/10 resident/nonresident for sheep/goat/moose/bison/antelope

are we sure Wyoming isn’t already at 90/10 on Elk & Deer with general OTC tags included? I’m sure Wyoming knows how many resident hunters it has vs non resident.

make all elk and deer LQ and go to 90/10 for all and get rid of the wilderness rule.

 

[nripepi]

Nothing long term was ever promised or guaranteed. Besides many of those points early on were purchased at a mere $7 bucks a point. When almost every surrounding Western state now offers a 90/10, isn’t it only equitable Wyoming residents should receive that same fairness and equitable distribution in their own state? Wyoming still wants and needs Non-resident hunters, especially those willing to hunt cow elk, antelope and whitetail deer but the premium Limited quota tags as most surrounding states now distribute should be mostly reserved for the Residents. We only seek fairness and equity as we are reciprocally treated as Non-residents when hunting surrounding states. A compromise would be a reciprocity plan. What is likely going to happen here with this heavily Outfitter dominated Task Force is 15% may be reserved for Non-Residents but 10% will go to Outfitter sponsored hunters and only 5% left for DIY non-residents. Now how will Non-residents feel about Outfitters looking out for their interests? Remember the Wilderness carve out, it’s soon to be the same with license numbers for Outfitter sponsored hunts in Wyoming. I can see those fully outfitted elk hunts jump to $10,000 overnight as this task force starts its first meetings.

I hear you and your argument and it is sound other than Colorado (so about 3/4 sound I'd say), but so is the NR's argument of bait and switch. I am not a lawyer, but offering $7 points for a decade, $75-$100 points for 5 years, then $150 points for 5 years and then after 20 years changing the rules is pretty much blatant bait and switch. The $7 per point actually adds to the bait and switch scenario vs. take away from it, it is the carrot to get you in the door, a bait and switch tactic. If non-resident preference points wasn't one of it not the biggest revenue generator for the game and fish, I could better see your point. It is just such a touch situation and there is no correct or right answer when you are taking in $20+ million a year on preference points for a decade.

 

[highfastflyer]

I’m all for 90/10 resident/nonresident for sheep/goat/moose/bison/antelope

are we sure Wyoming isn’t already at 90/10 on Elk & Deer with general OTC tags included? I’m sure Wyoming knows how many resident hunters it has vs non resident.

make all elk and deer LQ and go to 90/10 for all and get rid of the wilderness rule.

Doubtful the Wilderness rule will go away as non-residents still get lost and may get eaten by a bear. In 2020, Wyoming sold 59,253 resident deer licenses and 25,736 non-resident deer licenses. These numbers will always be high for non-residents as our population is low and we require non-resident hunters to help us in our management and harvest of the deer herd. For the premium limited quota licenses we are merely asking for what most neighbouring states allow us as non-residents ie a 90/10 system. Currently, Wyoming allows 20% of its licenses for deer to go to non-residents and 16% for elk. Of course many of these licenses are not purchased by residents so non-residents take many more than the initial quota.

 

[highfastflyer]

I hear you and your argument and it is sound other than Colorado (so about 3/4 sound I'd say), but so is the NR's argument of bait and switch. I am not a lawyer, but offering $7 points for a decade, $75-$100 points for 5 years, then $150 points for 5 years and then after 20 years changing the rules is pretty much blatant bait and switch. The $7 per point actually adds to the bait and switch scenario vs. take away from it, it is the carrot to get you in the door, a bait and switch tactic. If non-resident preference points wasn't one of it not the biggest revenue generator for the game and fish, I could better see your point. It is just such a touch situation and there is no correct or right answer when you are taking in $20+ million a year on preference points for a decade.

Revenue for Game and Fish won’t change for a 90/10 system. In fact it likely will increase as it always has historically. There are a plethora of ways for the Game and Fish to raise funds. Preference points is just one of those tools, it won’t change with a 90/10 as hunters still apply in all those states surrounding Wyoming which have such a system and they haven’t lost revenue.
It might make you feel better if Wyoming had you sign a limited liability clause at the end of your hunting application.
“No Guarantees or Warranties. Except as expressly provided in the Agreement, neither Customer nor Wyoming Game and Fish makes any guarantees or warranties of any kind, expressed or implied. The state of Wyoming specifically disclaims all implied warranties of any kind or nature, including any implied warranty of license allocation or harvest.”

Prices fluctuate in any system where circumstances vary and are cyclical such as contracting and expanding wildlife herds. The Wyoming Game and Fish does a highly professional job of managing their game herds and many non-residents have complimented them and thanked them for doing a Professional job and past hunting opportunities. If you don’t like it then move on or drop out as thousands are in line awaiting a chance at a possibility of a license and knowing full well it isn’t guaranteed or implied the license numbers, prices, seasons and conditions can change and will vary from season to season. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking.

 

[nripepi]

Revenue for Game and Fish won’t change for a 90/10 system. In fact it likely will increase as it always has historically. There are a plethora of ways for the Game and Fish to raise funds. Preference points is just one of those tools, it won’t change with a 90/10 as hunters still apply in all those states surrounding Wyoming which have such a system and they haven’t lost revenue.
It might make you feel better if Wyoming had you sign a limited liability clause at the end of your hunting application.
“No Guarantees or Warranties. Except as expressly provided in the Agreement, neither Customer nor Wyoming Game and Fish makes any guarantees or warranties of any kind, expressed or implied. The state of Wyoming specifically disclaims all implied warranties of any kind or nature, including any implied warranty of license allocation or harvest.”

Prices fluctuate in any system where circumstances vary and are cyclical such as contracting and expanding wildlife herds. The Wyoming Game and Fish does a highly professional job of managing their game herds and many non-residents have complimented them and thanked them for doing a Professional job and past hunting opportunities. If you don’t like it then move on or drop out as thousands are in line awaiting a chance at a possibility of a license and knowing full well it isn’t guaranteed or implied the license numbers, prices, seasons and conditions can change and will vary from season to season. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking.

You didn't address the issue that was raised. There was no signing of a statement like that and a change to seasons and quotas is not what is being discussed. Being equitable to implied rules is what is being discussed. I agree there is no easy answer, but to say that Non-residents with 20+ points are not being royally screwed by 90/10 after providing a large percentage of the budget is ignorant.

 

[delmag1942]

New Mexico only offers 6% of the tags to a DIY Non-resident Hunter. Even more reason for Wyoming to go 90/10.
“6 percent to nonresidents who have not contracted with an outfitter”

Draw Info, Odds & Success Tips - New Mexico Department of Game & Fish

New Mexico’s big game drawing is subject to a quota system. Information found here on how the draw works, draw odds and report summaries, and success tips.

www.wildlife.state.nm.us

84% goes to Residents....6% straight NR...10% outfitted where the majority are NR.

 

[delmag1942]

What does our general tags have to do with 90/10? I wouldn't be so confident this isnt going away

No problem just not the same. The vast majority of 90/10 states do not have general biggame tags.....so it is draw or do not hunt.

 

[jims]

Back to Colorado (Wyo's neighboring state) issuing 35% of limited deer, elk, and antelope tags to nonres. Colo res actually tried to raise the % of limited resident tags several years ago. The small town communities in Western Colorado were in an up-roar when they found out because they knew the financial boast that nonres provided to their economies. In fact, small towns were so animate about this that they joined hands and formed a "task force" of their own. The task force had some one research the financial boasts that nonres provide to small town economies to prove their point.

In the end, the "task force" was successful and the bill was defeated. From that point on there has been little to no debate on changing away from 35% limited nonres deer, elk, and antelope tags in Colo. Colo has learned the positive economic impacts nonres provide not only to the CPW but local business.

If Wyo outfitters and small town community business owners are smart they will investigate what the "task force" in Colo found out about the boast that nonres provide to small town communities in Colo! This may put to rest the 90/10 debate for good!

 

[highfastflyer]

You didn't address the issue that was raised. There was no signing of a statement like that and a change to seasons and quotas is not what is being discussed. Being equitable to implied rules is what is being discussed. I agree there is no easy answer, but to say that Non-residents with 20+ points are not being royally screwed by 90/10 after providing a large percentage of the budget is ignorant.

Did Idaho, Montana, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and any other states which cut back their Non-Resident licenses to 90/10 offer any Implied warranty for changing the quotas? HELL NO!!!! Wyoming owes you nothing as Nothing is guaranteed, Implied or Warranted in an ever changing Random lottery system.
If you don’t like it then move on or drop out as thousands are in line awaiting a chance at a possibility of a license and knowing full well it isn’t guaranteed or implied the license numbers, and conditions can change and will vary from season to season. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking.

 

[highfastflyer]

84% goes to Residents....6% straight NR...10% outfitted where the majority are NR.

Likely what may happen in Wyoming with all of these Outfitters on the Task Force. For deer it’s currently 20% in Wyoming for non-residents but this could change and be lowered to the current quota for elk which is 16% to non-residents. Of the 16% then 10% could go to fully Outfitted hunts leaving only 6% for non-resident DIY hunters. This task force bears considerable watching and monitoring but listening to all the Whiners on here croak about changing the rules when no guarantees were ever promised maybe even many Residents will support generating more Revenue from $1000 license fees for fully Outfitted hunts. It might even lower resident license fees to free hunting licenses for just registering. Where do I sign up?

 

[highfastflyer]

Back to Colorado (Wyo's neighboring state) issuing 35% of limited deer, elk, and antelope tags to nonres. Colo res actually tried to raise the % of limited resident tags several years ago. The small town communities in Western Colorado were in an up-roar when they found out because they knew the financial boast that nonres provided to their economies.

Wyoming currently issues almost 44% of all deer licenses to Non-residents and this won’t change with a 90/10 system.
In 2020, Wyoming sold 59,253 resident deer licenses and 25,736 non-resident deer licenses. The same 40+% will come visit and shop in Wyoming communities during the Fall hunting seasons. Businesses have nothing to worry about with a 90/10 system.

 

[jims]

Highfastflyer what % of total limited buck tags would go to Wyo nonres with 90/10? Some nonres units may not even have any deer tags because there would be less than 90 total tags issued...additional loss of nonres opportunity with 90/10!

The task force can disguise % of tags offered to nonres by including doe and cow tags....sounds better but in reality nonres would loose more than 1/2 of the current limited tags issued!

Nonres pick up a doe tag when they are buck hunting which adds length of time and $ spent on their Wyo trip. Maybe a few nonres travel all the way to Wyo for just a doe....or maybe not?

How many doe tags are issued in years after winterkill, disease, and predators? The WG&F can't count on $ generated by doe or cow elk tags because in lean years there are few to no tags issued. Take a look at how many fewer doe antelope tags are being issued in 2021! That's loss of $ to both the WG&F and local economies!

With high demand limited nonres tags cut in 1/2 by 90/10 iit would take twice as long to draw most of those tags. In several of units there wouldn't be any nonres tags issued! This comes with a loss of $ from high dollar nonres limited tags and loss of revenue to local economies.

 

[highfastflyer]

Highfastflyer what % of total limited buck tags would go to Wyo nonres with 90/10? Some nonres units may not even have any deer tags because there would be less than 90 total tags issued...additional loss of nonres opportunity with 90/10!

The task force can disguise % of tags offered to nonres by including doe and cow tags....sounds better but in reality nonres would loose more than 1/2 of the current limited tags issued!

Nonres pick up a doe tag when they are buck hunting which adds length of time and $ spent on their Wyo trip. Maybe a few nonres travel all the way to Wyo for just a doe....or maybe not?

How many doe tags are issued in years after winterkill, disease, and predators? The WG&F can't count on $ generated by doe or cow elk tags because in lean years there are few to no tags issued. Take a look at how many fewer doe antelope tags are being issued in 2021! That's loss of $ to both the WG&F and local economies!

With high demand limited nonres tags cut in 1/2 by 90/10 iit would take twice as long to draw most of those tags. In several of units there wouldn't be any nonres tags issued! This comes with a loss of $ from high dollar nonres limited tags and loss of revenue to local economies.

The region quotas will not be affected. Only the premium limited quota tags. All of those leftover tags will still mainly go to Non-residents and the demand is always HIGH and that is why we even now have a leftover drawing for those licenses. The same 40+% of all deer licenses issued will still go to Non-residents and demand will be high for those licenses. Wyoming businesses have nothing to fear as Wyoming still sells far more deer tags as a percentage of licenses sold than any Western state. Colorado meanwhile restricts Wyoming residents to a 90/10 system for Moose, Bighorn sheep and Mt. Goats. We only want a reciprocal type system. Fair and equitable is all we seek.

 

[jm77]

Apparently deficiencies in math abound on here.

The percentage of NR deer tags in Wyoming in 2020 was 30% and antelope was 48%.

There would be no LQ areas without NR tags under 90/10, that's a lie.

Under 90/10, PP would still function just exactly like they do now. In fact, when tag numbers are cut for bad winters, PP function just like they do every other year.

There has never been a guarantee anywhere in the US for the number of tags, percent of allocation or time it takes to draw to the NR hunter. Get up off ground, brush yourself off and move on. Tantrums don't solve a thing, a psychiatrist might.

Some form of 90/10 is going to happen, the question is what species.

 

[LIK2HNT]

As a NR with 21 (soon to be 22) points I hope this takes a few years to take effect so I can draw a Sheep tag. If it was not for the wilderness rule I would of planned on this year. ??

 

[SS!]

As a NR with 21 (soon to be 22) points I hope this takes a few years to take effect so I can draw a Sheep tag. If it was not for the wilderness rule I would of planned on this year. ??

You’re close, it will happen for ya! Good luck next year!

 

[treedagain]

Apparently deficiencies in math abound on here.

The percentage of NR deer tags in Wyoming in 2020 was 30% and antelope was 48%.

There would be no LQ areas without NR tags under 90/10, that's a lie.

Under 90/10, PP would still function just exactly like they do now. In fact, when tag numbers are cut for bad winters, PP function just like they do every other year.

There has never been a guarantee anywhere in the US for the number of tags, percent of allocation or time it takes to draw to the NR hunter. Get up off ground, brush yourself off and move on. Tantrums don't solve a thing, a psychiatrist might.

Some form of 90/10 is going to happen, the question is what species.

I can see sheep, goats,bison and Moose. Those would make sense. I doubt the others.

 

[grosventrehunter]

As a NR with 21 (soon to be 22) points I hope this takes a few years to take effect so I can draw a Sheep tag. If it was not for the wilderness rule I would of planned on this year. ??

If you draw a sheep tag and want a resident to accompany you let me know. I would be more than happy helping out and go on your sheep hunt in the wilderness area.

 

[SS!]

If you draw a sheep tag and want a resident to accompany you let me know. I would be more than happy helping out and go on your sheep hunt in the wilderness area.

Hell of an offer!

 

[LIK2HNT]

If you draw a sheep tag and want a resident to accompany you let me know. I would be more than happy helping out and go on your sheep hunt in the wilderness area.

Yes, hell of an offer. Thanks very much, I will keep you in mind. Nice to see people here helping others
Bill

 

[highfastflyer]

Yes, hell of an offer. Thanks very much, I will keep you in mind. Nice to see people here helping others
Bill

You haven’t seen his appetite. He only eats steak while at camp and Single Malt long aged Scotch. LOL.