Your ideas on Juniors-Only hunts in Arizona

[DonMartin]

The Arizona Game & Fish Department in Region III (Kingman) is asking the public for input on the following proposal.

They (G&F) want to move the Juniors-Only muzzleloader deer hunt from the current hunt dates of Dec. 10-31 to Nov. 18-27 in 2005.

They says by doing so they can increase the number of permits from 30 to 50.

They also indicate that there may be a biological reason for moving the hunt out of the rut. Here is some data from G&F records on recent hunts in Unit 16A (Hualapai Mountains) where this hunt is held.

Year Tags issued Bucks Taken Hunt Success
1999 10 5 50%
2000 20 12 67%
2001 20 12 67%
2002 30 24 77%
2003 30 14 46%

FYI the department allows unlimited archery deer hunting for bucks in this unit from Jan. 1-31

Now, since about 3-7 of these permits go to out of state kids each year, I think that you're input should be taken too, and considered by the department.

There will be a public meeting here in Kingman on Jan. 20, but you can send written comments to Johnny Wills, Region III Game Specialist, 5325 N. Stockton Hill Road, Kingman AZ 86401.

About 10 years ago, I went to the Comission on behalf of the Mohave Sportsman Club and asked that juniors-only hunts be established in northwest Arizona. The Commission agreed and three hunts were established. Two are rifle hunts and one is the muzzleloader hunt.

My feeling is that if the department is concerned about taking too many bucks, then close down the archery hunt in January and leave the kids hunts alone. Currently archers have 50 units they can hunt from Jan.1-31 in Arizona. Would closing one unit (16A) be a burden on archers? If you're an archer who hunts AZ, would you give up this one unit to keep the kids hunts in tact?

I also think that the department could offer 20 tags in Nov. since that is a pre-rut hunt. Kids won't see as many deer and bucks during that time, but it gives them a different time period if the Christmas holiday hunt doesn't work for them.

The rancher who has the area where a lot of the kids hunt (Anita Waite, Cane Springs Ranch) likes the December hunt and so do local educators, who note the kids are out of school. Course they would be out for Thanksgiving break too on the Nov. hunt.

Anyway, just like to hear from you guys who have kids and maybe even have them apply for juniors-only hunts in Arizona.

I think your ideas also need to be heard.

Thanks,

Don Martin

 

[Bura Nut]

Don, I personally believe that if AZGFD doesnt do a whole lot more to increase the opportunity for kids, then there will be alot of people who quit spending time/money on wildlife conservation in AZ. I personally have two boys and like others we did not draw any tags for this year. I put my sons in for Kaibab doe tags and cow elk tags along with the 36a/c juniors hunt and did not draw. This situation in my opinion is not good. If kids cannot get tags then how will we as hunters get our children involved in the outdoors instead of other less desireable hobbies? I sure hope the future of AZ and the kids are serioslly looked at by the commission and AZGFD management..... Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[782warbird]

Don, Hi this is Dom I believe you are correct leave the juniors alone and put a hold on archery hunters. Just like the antelope situation I believe juniors lost all antelope tags for this year. I was at the meeting buy had to leave before it was decided and from what it looked like some of the commisioners thought that the antelope tags are to much of a prize possesion to give any to juniors. Well thats all crap Just like Allen stated we need more tage allocated to junior hunts. People without kids of hunting age may not understand this but I would give my 1st strip tag to my son if I ever draw one.
But in all I feel they need to leave the juniors hunt dates alone and close or limit those units for adult hunters
Dom

 

[RELH]

I believe in having good quality hunts for the kids. By allowing a kid to have a better chance of filling a tag, we have increased the hunter ranks for the future.
I would personally give up a chance for hunting a area or time span if I knew the tag would go to a kid and would increase that kid's odds of getting his first big game animal.


RELH

 

[TRice]

PASS IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RLH]

what i don't understand is a juniors only muzzleloader hunt. it's hard enough to get a 10 year old kid on an animal with a rifle. why make it harder? make it a rifle hunt so they have a better chance to be get a deer. give the kids' dads a break. i'm all for some jr hunts, but like allen said, the permits are really hard to get. most of this jr only stuff started after most of my boys were too old anyway. but even my younger son never got drawn the times he applied. luckily he was always able to get 2nd choice permits in the same unit as the rest of us. to me tho, let them kids use rifles so they can get off a second shot quickly and have better chance at success.

 

[DonMartin]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-05 AT 00:16AM (MST)[p]RLH:

I really don't have a problem with the muzzleloader hunt. Many in this community are into this method of take, and as you can see, many juniors are successful and have wrapped their tags through the gambrel of a number of bucks in years past.

Judging from the addresses of the kids who got the tags this year, seems muzzleloader hunts are popular all over AZ and CA. We do have two rifle juniors hunts in Region III, so I'm not gonna rock the boat to change this hunt.

Just think they ought to leave it alone, kids out of school, bucks in the open due to the rut, kids see lots of deer, numerous shooting opportunities for the new hunters, etc.

Don Martin

 

[Someburro]

They did the same thing to the great youth hunt in 20C. Used to be in December. Now it's in early November, before Thanksgiving and after 500 old drunk slobs have hunted there just the week before. You can't find a buck to save your life.

 

[ElmerFudd]

I really think the youth hunts should be over Christmas vacation. And yes, eliminate the bow hunt in some units like that would be fine, to keep/increase youth permit numbers.

 

[RLH]

don, if a guy does his work, he can get his kid a reasonable shot with a muzzleloader, i just think if you're gonna give a kid real chance, let him use a repeater. if it's about getting kids interested in hunting, let em have some success with a light rifle they can pack easy that doesn't have the recoil of a muzzleloader and that isn't as labor intensive to practice with. i remember it was real frustrating trying to get my kid to where he could even hit when he had that bull tag. and i agree with having the jr hunt during Christmas break. that or make sure the school doesn't hassle em for taking a few days off to hunt. when i was a kid, the first day of deer season was always a day off and they allowed us 2 other excused days during deer season. hell, it was a rite of passage. we even played our football game that week on thursday night. they oughta have pig season over spring break too. that's a great hunt for kids too.

 

[DonMartin]

RLH:

I agree with most of your post, really do.

However, if I understand the G&F perspective, its not so much about the killing as the OPPORTUNITY to go hunting, and they are saying they want to increase the opportunity for the kids to go hunting.

Some of us feel that in this case you can have your cake and eat it to. We, as hunting adults, must ensure that the kids, especially those on their first hunt, should be able to see lots of critters, have multiple shooting opportunities, have little/none hunter interference, not miss school,etc. That December hunt does just that, takes care of almost all the issues, though I think G&F looks at this as we are trying to make this a "Trophy" hunt, and they don't like that concept.

I am going to propose another twist to this juniors-only issue. In Arizona, juniors (10-17) have juniors-only deer, elk, turkey and javelina hunt opportunities. Seems as though they are trying to do away the antelope tags, for whatever reason, but there was only four anyway.

Anyway, how about this idea. If it is indeed about opportunities, then do this. If a juniors draws a juniors-only tag, then he/she is ineligble to apply as a juniors for that species only in the years to come. With opportunities for four big game species in a 7 year window, that would enable a junior to have at least a couple, if not more quality hunting experiences before they reach 18.

Plus, the juniors-only hunter pool, which is hopefully getting larger each year, would see a more wide dispersement of tags. (I.E. Same kid doesn't draw a juniors deer tag each year while some kid with bad draw luck, gets shut out. Draw once, go on a great hunt, but let some other youth have the tag for that species next year.

Looks to me like this system would work, what do you guys think?

Another thing, I appreciate all of you taking the time to respond and give your opinion on this issue.

Don Martin

 

[stanley]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-05 AT 12:46PM (MST)[p]Don et al:

Like most everyone, I think the youth hunts are a GREAT idea! In fact my oldest son just turned 10 in December, and will be out on his first javelina hunt during the 36A/C Juniors hunt next month.

I feel pretty strongly that whenever possible, they should try to keep the Juniors hunts during a period of time where they are most likely to have success. I hear the G&F argument (more 'opportunity' to hunt...), but I think it's important to give the little ones as much of an opportunity as possible to get some action while they're out there. For javelina in unit 20C, the Juniors hunt is the only rifle javelina hunt there is in that unit. I like the idea of setting select units aside for youths only for certain species, and I think this is something they should explore expanding. I think that doing this would be another way of not only just proving youth hunts, but also provide them with the greatest opportunity at success.

Don, I like the idea of limiting the kids to only one youth tag per species!

I ran the ADA Youth Camp during this past fall's Junior hunt in 36A/B/C, and while it was AWESOME to see all of the kids truly enjoying themselves in the field, it was especially cool when one would come through with their tag on a buck. The pride these kids was obvious! What a great way to not only get them involved in what we all love so much, but to really help them to build confidence and self-esteem as they grow into young adulthood.

Thanks for posting this subject Don!

S.



PS: The ADA will be hosting a Youth Camp in unit 20C for the Junior's javelina hunt next month. If you have a child that got drawn for that hunt, you should definitely stop by! I'll post camp details as soon as I get them.

 

[RLH]

i sorta like the idea of only one permit per species. most of the jr hunts, for deer anyway, are in a primo time slot and there is a lot of competition for them. like i said, my youngest tried every year to get a jr's only hunt someplace and never got drawn. they can say what they want about "opportunity", when i go hunting i expect to use my permit and i brought my boys up the same way. if folks just want the chance to go hunting, that's fine. i wanna shoot something when i go. except for pigs. fine with me to not tag out there. to me, when a kid starts hunting, it needs to be progressively harder, so that that they get conditioned to the rigors of it. don't just throw em in the ringer right off, like my ol' man did me. if i didn't have an absolute need to hunt, i mighta quit when i was little too. dang we did some rough stuff. nothing wrong with the muzzleloader deal, but it seems like a hardship for a kid to start out with a muzzleloader. i also kinda wonder about the age on it. it's 17 now? wasn't it like 20 when it first started? anyway, when i was 17 i was going on some real rough hunts in far away places by myself or with kids my age. guess times have changed. didn't consider myself a jr. maybe they oughta knock the age down to 16. like i say, my kids are all past the age anyway. but someday i hope to have some grandkids that will take it up. i'm all for jr hunts. in fact, i'd like to see some old guy hunts for seniors who've lived in Az. for a long time. my ol' man just shot a nice 6x6 in nov. but it was 18 between his last Az. elk permit. but, we only have so many animals, can't give em to every "minority" out there i guess. keep up the good work.

 

[bullwrinkle]

What ever you do, don't give them a bow and teach them how to hunt.

Extend the junior age to 21 so they can hunt after school. By the time they learn how to hunt, there will be no bow hunting. Buy them a rifle.

Post their success on the www. and tell stories.

Hire a guide.

 

[DonMartin]

Dave:

Kinda cryptic aren't you?

One might take from your post that you have other "ideas" on how to increase junior participation, so kindly share your thoughts with all of us.

Don Martin

 

[azbiggame]

Leave it to Region 3 G&F,to "Offer" to screw up a GOOD hunt for a FEW Jr.Hunters,in the Hualapais.

Its no Secret,to what Az G&F management of hunters is.More hunters in field at less than "Quality Hunt Opps".Fewer deer harvested.Just look at THEY/G&F have done to the Hunts,NORTH of the "River".

If I rember back a few years,this is what Region 3 did for the General hunt in 16A.More tags,More tags to what this hunt unit has now become ???

All should tell Region 3 to leave the Juniors Deer hunts as is !!!

 

[bullwrinkle]

Don,

I like your ideas. Just giving you a hard time. Little Lois Lane keeps my cryptonite dose pretty high.

I don't see why the archery hunt in January should be changed. I don't have the 2003 stats but in 2002 & 2001 not a single archery buck was harvested.

 

[DonMartin]

Dave:

You're right, they shouldn't change it! There is no biological reason to either move the juniors hunt OR shut down the archery hunt that I can see.

However, you know how the game is played.

Got to cover all the bases before the process start. By the way, just because it doesn't show up on the stats of deer taken in Unit 16A, doesn't mean there wans't any. To quote my friend George Welsh, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Bringing in the archery community with their opinion(s) on this issue is necessary, and welcomed.

Anyway, Dave, the process continues..

Don Martin

 

[bullwrinkle]

On the other hand Don, maybe they should shut down the archery hunt. Since they don't harvest any animals, what would they be losing? Be nice to know what percentage of the 100 archery hunters that hunt there are residents? Maybe some Kalifornia or Nevada bowhunters have an opinion?

You bring up a good point Don. If we do not have mandatory hunter success reporting for all species of big game from all weapons groups and require the unused tag be returned, its like a O.J. trial. The truth may never be known. Since we base so much of what we do on these surveys, would be nice if they were close.

I support abstinence from big game hunting in Arizona for at least two years. Mountain lion excepted (they are a predator) and all other predators, yotes, bobcats, wolves, taulmans, foxes, weasels, etc. are all fair game.

 

[runningbird]

I think they should keep all as is. also in regards to age of youth hunts I would say 18 is a good limit. Most hunters assume that all others were brought up hunting. this is not always true there are plenty of people who want to start hunting that were never given the opertunity when they were 10 years old. give a person a chance once they get their drivers liscense to get out there.

 

[Bura Nut]

Dave, you bring up a great point on abstinence and yet our own AZGFD and commission are putting revenue increases above herd health etc.....any day now we probably will see the Arizona Landowner tag issue pop up and probably supported by the department and the commission. Somehow some way our voices resident and non resident alike need to be not only heard but listened to and acted upon or we need to get new people in the AZGFD management and the commission or we will see increased tags in not only the Kaibab/Strip as well as premium bull tags increasing based on the lure of the money. Our current management and commission function in many ways as pawns of our Gov. office. I just hope the future bodes well for AZ and I am totally wrong in my guesstimate..................... Allen Taylor......

 

[bullwrinkle]

It seems to be all about money Allen.

I believe you are correct.

We all need to make sure this commission knows how we feel.

I wish I could just reach up and turn the light switch off on big game hunting in Arizona for at least two years. Give the animals time to recover from drought. Give others time to figure out how to manage resident hunt opportunities. Give us time to get a new governor.

I have more to say about this later. I am sure Don does to.

 

[bullwrinkle]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-05 AT 09:40PM (MST)[p]I believe you are correct Allen, it does take money to run the department.

I have not seen very many hunters at commission meetings on a consistent basis trying to give constructive input to the future of hunting in Arizona.

Does anyone here know where all the money comes from and how it is used? What if the proposed increases are warranted?

What will be the result if the increases don't happen?

Back to the original theme here, junior fees will not be increased. With all the stuff that has happened in Arizona this past year it is hard to stay focused on all the separate issues. I get frustrated and mix up the issues all the time. I see four main issues:

1. The department is under staffed and under payed and needs more money to do the job right.

2. We have been sued and have a federal court dictating how we must conduct ourselves and we must react to protect resident opportunities from that action.

3. We have suffered several years of drought and may suffer more.

4. We kill too many animals trying to fund the machine and make everyone happy with their opportunities.

Don offers positive ideas that promote a good idea for one unit for our kids. That is a positive step!!!

I wish I had the answers that could fix all this, like I said, I just want to reach up and turn the light switch off.

I hope more people become involved and consider how they can take positive steps to help the future of hunting in Arizona.

A lot of people are complaining about it but not a lot are showing up to help.

Think about what may happen if you don't help.

Dave

 

[DonMartin]

Dave & others:

Based upon the remarks I've read, the calls I've got, and copies of the letters that are being sent to Johnny Wills at G&F, I'd say if they persist in trying to promote that move, they're in for a battle.

Lots of reasons to keep it where it is, and not a lot of support for moving it.

I don't know how many will show up next Thursday for the hunt recommendation meeting here in Kingman, but I suspect it will be more than the ususal four or five.

I'm gonna do a story in the local paper on the meeting next Wednesday, so maybe we'll get some folks off their butts and get out there and stand up for junior hunting opportunities in Arizona.

Don Martin

 

[Bura Nut]

Don: I will not be at the meeting. I still wonder why our commissioners had all the public input meetings after the USO 9th circuit court issue and yet made decisions completely against the "public input". I will always fight for juniors rights (they are the most important hunter in all this). I have two sons and am concerned there will be no future in hunting AZ for them if the existing management and commission continues. I sure hope they listen to the residents and not move to MDF and other bland national wildlife organizations after all the work ADA and others have put into AZ.............I am really concerned that one of the Governors tags has been issued to MDF and not ADA. This is just the step I see AZGFD moving towards. They are ignoring their residents and making moves in a "conservation" direction that isnt supported by the residents..... Allen Taylor......