Very sad for our Sport

C

caelkhnter

Very Active Member
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So I have heard from my buddy who is guiding on Unit 10 currently. Reports hunter arrowed 400 type bull opening morning. As soon as shot made and bull takes off, they he someone cow calling to stop or slow up bull. Evidently another "group" was after that bull, saw them shoot it, and wanted to get on it " for their hunter". In addition they had spotters who radioed to " the group" what was happening.

Well buddy gets on top of ridge just in time to see the Bull bed down under tree the next ridge over. He then sees a truck speeding down the road heading in the direction of where bull is. He tries to flag them down so they don't jump the bedded wounded Bull. Evidently the truck was part of " the group", had received radioed instructions, had gathered their hunter and wanted to get after that Bull.
Sure enough they jumped that Bull, not to be seen again.

Game and fish called, and he eventually got " the group" to let my buddy and the hunter try to get that bull. Group agreed to let them have the next day, but then " all bets were off" Game and fish actually help tracking for a mile or so. Looks like bull hit in lung, and bleeding good at times, but was on a steady run.

My buddy continued tracking for another mile or so, called it a day, pretty certain it had to be in a particular draw. Unfortunately rained like crazy all night, so no more tracks or blood this morning.

" the group" apparently was at draw first thing this morning. Apparently had spotters watching them all afternoon yesterday.

This is sad in many respects. Kind of thing that gives hunters bad reputation!

Will report when get more news.
 
It is definately all about who has the most money,and greed. Why would you even want to go after an animal that someone else shot. My uncle shot a roosevelt elk years ago in Oregon, and tracked for about a mile when he finally foundit another group of hunters had already tagged it. There were four of them and one of him what are you gonna do when confronted with that and everyone has a gun. He let em have the elk. I just don't get why you would want to tag an elk you didn't kill yourself. Just my .02 cents.
 
Most hunting experiences are positive and memorable, but I do agree that there are instances of poor sportsmanship and hunter etiquette that can ruin the day and unfortunately leave a poor impression of the sport. We simply have to move on and understand that such boorish behavior is the exception rather than the norm.

Eldorado
 
Eldarado

I agree, I just hate to hear about these types of situations. However hunters are people, and there will always be some of every type. By and large, we are a good community of good people who share common interests and values.
 
Makes me not even want to be in the same woods as these parasites. We all dream of a unit 10 early archery tag but honestly who wants one? I think I'd take a tag in a "regular" unit and chase "little" 300 bulls to stay away from this garbage. All these stories of jerk off outfitters pulling this kind of crap. I have friends who are guides and I've always defended them but its getting to the point where I think some of these guys should be forced off the mountain. Discusting behavior!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Caelk I hope your buddy defeats the odds and finds HIS bull. As was mentioned before this is an exception. Some people are greedy and not concerned about the real reason we hunt. My dad had a situation were he had hit a whitetail buck and it ran in front of another hunter only to have that hunter shoot it. A real sportsman would have called my dad over and would have had him tag it. In the 80s when we were elk hunting my dad hit a bull that was standing but ready to fall when another hunter shoots it. I was not about to have this happen again so I rushed over to the bull and let it be known to that other guy where the herd was and that dad had it and the bull was ready to fall when this guy shoots it in the hind quarter.
If the other guy gets it, I hope that group is to be known so we know who they are. I sure would not want to hunt with them at all!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-11 AT 09:30AM (MST)[p]I was helping my brother in law on his elk hunt one year. Opening morning we had some cows crossing about 100 yds away when we hear all hell break loose. We heard 3 shots then a pause then another 3 shots. The herd turned an ran the direction they came from. We followed. We got about 500 yds from where we saw the cows and we saw what looked like an elk standing behind a tree. We glassed it and sure enough there was a bull standing there. He looked hurt so we waited about 10 min. My brother decided to put him down so he took the shot and the bull dropped. We walked over to the bull and he had obviously been hit a few times prior to my brothers shot. We were standing next to the bull when we hear someone walking up. Here comes this guy wearinf a bright blue Tarheals sweatshirt, baggy jeans and loosely laced tennis shoes. He says "I shot that bull" we said "you sure did" he says "its my bull" we said "it sure is". He tells us he ran out of bullets! He came off very arogant so we said "have a good day... nice bull". Normally we would have offered to help and I think we may have and he declined. Anyway, my brother didn't end up tagging a bull that year. But i figured we did the right thing even though this guy put 6 bullets in that bull and couldn't get it done... no 7 because he pulled out a pistol and shot it the head when he got over to us. The rules read the kill shot gets the animal but whats right is right.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Some of the things we all have likely seen from time to time in the outdoors are ugly and reflect poorly on our activities if taken to be the "norm" by the non-hunting public.

The pressure to get your face on the cover of a magazine (or be the latest proof-of-acceptable-harvest grip 'n grin photo for an outfitters' website) can drive folks to do things they might not otherwise ever dream of doing.

If you hunt long enough, or often enough, in areas that produce older age class trophy game you are going to see something like the scenario described in this thread, or be a part of it, unwittingly or not.

Let's hope the hunter can find his bull and put it's suffering to an end and that the "group" can find a bull that suits their client's fancy.

Here's to a safe and memorable 2011 hunting season for all.
 
So just heard from buddy. They did not find the bull yesterday. Pretty sure died in that draw, just have not been lucky finding it. At this point, does not look good.

Will report if hear any more.
 
Post up some names of the outfitters !! I wouldn't hunt with an outfitter that did that if it was for free. Just like the saying goes .....this post is worthless without pics......we need names.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-11 AT 03:48PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-11-11 AT 03:46?PM (MST)

quit with the "group" already and say which outfitter"GUIDE"- hunters(?) is pullin this chit - - needs to go on record - here and other sites!

vechiles have any window stickers - etc?
 
Okay, got some additional info and some clarification. First, my buddy did not see bull actually bed down, just saw the ridge where it went to bed. That is why he tried to stop truck, but apparently their spotters did see it bed and that is why they were rushing to get to it.

Second, evidently "the group" told game and fish would give my buddy 2 days and only gave a couple of hours.

Finally do not know name of guides from group. However group seems to be a bunch of BowTech guys.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-11 AT 01:26AM (MST)[p]I hope your buddy finds his bull, it's too bad a situation like this happened. I've been hunting unit 10 this year and with all the hunters I've seen it doesn't surprise me another group was right there to chase the bull. There's some good bulls throughout the unit, but overall I haven't been too impressed with the archery hunt and rut so far. Good luck and let us know how it turns out!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-11 AT 12:40PM (MST)[p]I feel sorry for your friend especially with a bull of that caliber. I wasn't there so I don't know exactly how everything went down but I don't see the actions of the other guide all that bad from today's standards at least. For all the other guides knew your buddy missed the bull and they were trying to jock for position to relocate the bull and maybe get a crack at him. I think it's great that the other guides are allowing your friend a day or two to find the bull. Seems fair to me. Not to bash your friend so please don't take this the wrong way but if he would have made a better shot none of this would have probably ever happened. I sure hope your buddy is able to recover the bull.
 
I understand what you are saying, and accept the fact that not all the information is here for us to see. Obviously I was not there either. However, it is my understanding that the hit was decent, lung based on the blood trail etc and the fact that it bedded down on a ridge a couple hundred yards away from the hit, and that after seeing it had bedded down and having the Bull take off after they jumped it, thus knowing it had been hit from the blood trail, I would not have expected them to be so agressive in chasing after it. In addition, based on them cow calling immediateley after the shot, I am not so certain they were not aware of the fact that it had been hit.

At the end of the day, it is just a very unfortunate situation for our hunting community. Especially since they have not been able to locate it yet.

I expect I will here more in the next couple of days and will provide what I expect will be the final report.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-11 AT 04:24PM (MST)[p]by now the crows/ vultures ought to lead you right to it/ if in fact it died

its been rainin every evenin in 10 -- rds went from ok to MUDDY -

hopefully the hunter tags out- by now time to move on


bummer
 
Sounds like a whole lot of belly-aching for something that is at best a wounded bull seen running by other hunters. We have all been there and it doesn't make you feel good but if the bull was hit good (in the lungs) it would likely be in the hunter's freezer. Best of luck during the rest of the hunt and curious whether the hunter was shooting Bowtech. Probably not since the bull is still running.
 
Nice first post Heber1. I suppose my buddy can and will provide further information when he gets back from his hunt, which I am confident will establish this is not nearly as innocent a situation as you speculate.

At this point they have either recovered the bull or not. When I have that information I will provide it. Otherwise I will let my buddy provide the additional information about the situation as he sees fit.
 
A double lunged bull can still travel quite a ways, especially if pushed. If it was showing lung blood then it was a good shot. Pushing a wounded bull is just flat stupid. The first shooter has plenty to complain about. To think that a guy cant go out and shoot a bull and... give it time to stove up and die without worrying about some idiot busting it out of its bed and trying to shoot it himself is idiotic! Guide or no guide you back off and let the guy chase his bull. He probably would have a bull in the freezer if some jackoff hadn't been racing around in a truck trying to steal his bull. Don't bounce in with your first post and make stupid statements like that!



"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
So Heber 1 tell your side of the story, I have a feeling you might know they guys that was in the truck. Because right now the truck guys did something really stupid.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-11 AT 09:04AM (MST)[p]
>


+1 gator - was thinkin same thing--

must know the group- comes on -first post- and supports the actions and bows - lol -
 
I was thinking that too but didn't want to follow up a dumb assumtion with another assumtion. How stupid do you have to be to assume that because a bull elk, in the rut must be shot bad to run 200 yds. Must not know elk very well or have the brains of a knat to know not to push a wounded bull with a truck. That's just dumb. If I were trying to snake a big wounded bull I sure heck wouldn't go storming up in a truck. It is very sad to see something like this happen. It just goes to show the effects of the all mighty dollar on our sport. Nothing against guide or the services they provide, I'm all for good guides doing a good job for their clients but situations like this don't do their industry any service. You get enough of this crap happening and game and fish will do something about it and none of us wants to see more laws.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-11 AT 02:08PM (MST)[p]here's where g$f coulda/shoulda stepped in and mentioned something about "posse" hunting - using radios /trucks to basically interupt a guys hunt -

- the get to it first crap-

if in fact they were watching this bull - and they knew this guy shot and arrowed the elk - shoulda backed off!

kinda sad when a 400 bull makes "hunters " do stuff they might not normally do!
 
Sad thing is unless game and fish sees them doing it, they won't write a ticket. The radio thing is already a tough one to make stick. But I absolutley agree, those idiots should get tickets for intentionally disrupting a lawful hunt. Same ticket they give greenies using pots and pans.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
glad im not shooting a bowtech in unit 10 right now...getting a little hot in the kichen.

my 2 cents...if it is true that a group pushed on a wounded bull that had bedded up, they should be smacked upside the head with their bowtechs.
 
You all are too much. I don't have a dog (or bull) in this hunt so let me close with the following comments. I am interested like the rest of you in how the Arizona archery elk hunt is going and always appreciate the photos posted and the related hunting stories. This year all that has been posted to this site is a Dear Abby article. Lets get back to stories of kills and pictures of nice bulls. Lets hope the hunter finds another bull, picked up a Bowtech over the weekend and makes a better shot. Good luck!

P.S. - Second and final post. You guys are starting to sound like chicks. I'm out!
 
Enough of the BS! This is why I never posted on this forum before. Its always somebody else's fault that they choked the shot or somebody else's fault why they did not recover. The story is told 2nd or 3rd hand and usually not by the ones involved! caelkhnter, you should have never posted something like this 2nd hand! For one you got the story WRONG in your first post and had to make a correction, second you are trashing a hunting party that you do not know or even heard their side of the story! I do know the "group" that is in question and I have the most respect for them and NEVER have I seen them INTENTIONALLY try to do anything like you are accusing them of, everyone in that "group" would take their shirt off their backs for anyone. Bottom line YOU were not there and I was not there! It is their fight not your! The Game and Fish was called in and their findings was the "group" did nothing wrong. The fact that your friend (the guide) and his client came into their "the groups" camp and started $hit is outragous, they were lucky to walk out. The idea of posting on other forums with descriptions of the vehicles and plates is also outragous! A wise man told me a long time ago, " be careful what you seek, you may just find it"! How do YOU know that the "group" had not been on that bull prior to the hunt also? How do YOU know that the "group" knew the bull was hit? How do you know that anything your friend told you is fact and not perception out of anger that his client choked. I have been around guiding for more than 20 years and I have seen this crap every year, A guide finds a trophy and he thinks that he is the only one entitled to the harvest. They agreed to give your friend time to find the bull, they did not have to do that, it is a public land hunt! Then you thank them by posting up this crap! To everyone else that jumped on caelkhnter's band wagon without finding out first hand from the hunting parties themselves and the facts, that is the "very sad thing for our sport"! Find out the facts folk before placing blame!
 
Hey richardoutwest thats like the pot callin the kettle black... caelkhnter is stickin up for his buddy just like you are. You weren't there....
 
Nice first post Richard. Well I see you have not hesitated in spinning this the way you want, without having been there.

You say your associates agreed to provide them time to search and they did. Well that is not exactly true and I am sure you know it. They told the Game and Fish they would give them 2 days and then only gave them the afternoon after they jumped the bull from its bed. I understand, the group are your friends and apparently you have associated with their type for 20 years. So you see no problem in what they have done. So be it. You and I disagree on what is right, but of course you are entitled to your opinion.

In any event, as I said in my prior post, I am confident my buddy will have absolutely no problem setting forth all the facts when he gets back, based on his personal observations, and the chips will fall where they may.

However at the end of the day I too know my buddy, have for over 40 years. He is as honest as the day is long. I made this post because I believe the incident is an illustration of what is becoming a growing problem in our hunting community.

As far a what the Game & Fish determined, again that is your spin and a matter that is best told by those involved, which again I will wait for my buddy to provide the facts based on his personal obversations of the actual events.

It has often been said that one has to have thick skin to post almost anything on a site like this. Well I do. As you can see,unlike you and Heber1, I have made over 1200 posts on this site. So you want to bash me, so be it! However I'm confident about what I have reported.
 
I am with richardoutwest on this. This is all 3rd hand stories. There are two sides to every story, and we haven't heard one yet.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-11 AT 09:01PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-11 AT 08:57?PM (MST)

i have no doubt that more than one group of hunters was after a 400 class bull-

i agree there are 2 sides to every story -

now we have 2 second hand stories- both interesting

thus we wait- for the conclusion of the story

I've not mentioned this on any website - I do need convincing - as to what really happened -
and interested in who was involved.
it's not hard to believe people/hunters doing things they may not normally do when a bull- (400) is being persued.
It's the world we live in.
 
Hi, my name is Craig Westfall and I was the hunter that arrowed the bull opening morning in unit 10 and these are the facts!
1. We have been up here in unit 10 for 2 weeks prior to the hunt scouting this bull every day.
2. The other hunters claim to have been up here scouting for 4 weeks but they were not, their pop up trailer has been up here but they were not prior to the day before the hunt.
3. As soon as I shot the bull they started cow calling to turn him around back towards them.
4. They had spotters on all the surrounding mountains.
5. Once the bull got to the meadow the other hunter, which has told people he is with Bowtech, whether he is a shooter or rep I don't know. I do know he has a Bowtec sticker in the back window of his truck and across his windshield, so I am just assuming he is affiliated in some way. He knowingly proceeded in his vehicle to cut us off while we were on foot, putting himself between my buddy and the bull.
6. My buddy ran to the other hunters truck to flag him down to tell him to back off.
7. The other hunter looked at my buddy, then grabbed his bow out of his truck and took off after the bull.
8. My buddy was waving at the other hunter spotters to get their attention. All they did was wave back.
9. We ran back to our trucks to drive back around the hill to where they were at. Once we made it back around we called Game & Fish and notified them of the situation and they were on their way out.
10. When we came back with our trucks and went through the gate we noticed their camp was right there. Which by that time they were back at their camp and we were able to ask why they did that.
11. The conversation then turned into a confrontation, which was not our intention at all.
12. They admitted to knowing we were on the bull.
13. They admitted knowing the bull was shot.
14. And the spotters admitted to seeing us tracking the bull.
15. They admitted to putting their hunter in between us and the bull so he could get on him.
16. Yes my shot could have been better the entrance was 5-6 inches below his spine on the right side behind his shoulder blade and exited in the same position only 7 inches lower on his left side. It was a fatal shot; I most definitely took his left lung.
17. They still proceeded after the bull after knowing all the facts and knowing that I hit him. They followed him to where he tried to bed, and then kicked him out of that.
18. We were on good blood, if they had not unethically pursued him he would have bedded down and died.
19. After Game & Fish arrived to help resolve the situation the guy with the big Bowtech sticker in his back window, that claims to be with Bowtech, told Game & Fish that he would give us 2 days to recover the bull without pressure from him or his spotters pushing the bull.
20. Game and Fish took a picture of the bloody arrow that I shot the bull with.
21. In less than 2 hours of Game and Fish leaving we went back in on a high point to glass and they were already back in there after the bull.
22. I would have been able to accomplish my dream and everyone else?s dream in this world if it wasn?t due to selfishness, greedy and unethical hunter.
My question is why would someone want to pursue and tag an animal that they know someone else has already fatally shot? Is it to go home to his wife to act like billy bad hunter? Is it to try to impress his friends? Is it for a magazine or a sponsor? And would he ever tell anyone that someone shot him 20 minutes prior? Those are the facts. Final thought?I would certainly hope that, if he truly is associated with Bowtech, that this is not how any shooter, representative or associate of Bowtech would choose to behave. I find it hard to stomach that someone that unethical would make themselves that noticeable.
 
Richardoutwest, YOU need to get the facts right before you start posting your second hand story! Did your friend bother to tell you how the confrontation started? your friend was the first to throw out the F bombs. did he bother to tell you that they were the ones threatening? did your friend bother to to you that I went back to there camp to talk things out? and your friend did tell me that nobody from there camp would enter the area for 2 days. and that conversation was recorded!
 
Well theres first hand for you! Sounds exactly like what was said in the original post. I guess we can wait and see what the Bowtech guy says, if he ever bothers.

Craig... I feel for you man and I'm sorry it went that way for you. I hope you can eventually find that bull. If all you say is true (not questioning) I think the others should be fined for waste of a game animal!

Heres the deal. The bull was wounded. Even if it wasn't fatal, anybody with any kind of sack

1. wouldn't go after a wounded animal someone else shot unless... he was there to help.

2. wouldn't promise to give a guy two days to track a bull then continue to go after it. Chickensh!t and you can't call yourself a man if you can't stand by your word.

3. would not drive a truck in between a shooter and a bull he's wounded.

If what Craig is saying is truth, I pray I never share country with the likes of these maggots.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Pretty well said AZ. This is one messed up deal. I'd love to hear what outfitter/guide it was that was pulling this BS. If it truly happened the way Craig describes it, citations should have been issued, IMO.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-11 AT 07:43AM (MST)[p]Well you know, not hearing the other side I kind of feel bad making assumtions but there are some universal truths here, at least in my eyes. I would never go after another hunters wounded animal, unless it was a very special situation. Maybe the guy hit the ham and couldn't continue the hunt. Even then... no not for me. The reason I hunt isn't for score, its the whole expirience. It wouldn't feel the same for me to go after an animal somone else just shot, plain and simple. And if you add in all the other factors in this deal, it stinks to high heaven. Thats why the title on this thread is so fitting, it really is sad that some are so motivated by score and in the end... what others think of them, that they will go to the lengths demonstrated here to get the "Big One" at any cost. Screw ethics, to hell with personal achievement... get the best, be the best and step on anybody that gets in your way. Whats sad is that its a common perception in the hunting community that the biggest animal gives you some kind of special rank. The big bull does not make you the "best"! In the end, nobody really gives a rip how big your bull was. Oh you might get into a mag and have guys on websites pat your back but in the end, people always remember the animal, not the hunter. So go steal your big bulls, someday when you pass away, we'll strap that mount of your 400" bull to the top of your casket and bury it with you!!!



"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Since the season has not ended- the Bowtech guys (group) may still be hunting and not have access to comp!

Still if the story above is indeed true - not saying it isn't

but if g$F took documented pics of bloody arrow and hunter has recorded conversations - makes it facts - not made up.

I would be interested to know why standup guys wouldnt offer to help out and locate the bull for the shooter.

sure would like to see pics of the -- MYSTICAL 400 BULL
 
Great point. The guys I call friends, guides included woud have helped out just to see a 400" bull hit the dirt!

Reminds me of a disagreement I had with a close friend last Jan. Earl one morning my buddy glasses up a 200" muley but it takes off following some does. 1 hour later I cross paths with the same buck and his does. Went back to camp and and we both find out we saw the same buck. We sat for an hour "discussing" who was going after that buck. My reasoning was he saw it first and he should chase it, his reasoning was he already had 2 toads on his wall and he wanted me to have a shot at it. We were going in after it together and he didn't even want to leave camp with his bow. I had to argue with him to bring it. We did end up seeing that buck again and we both went in after him to no avail. We will both go after him again this year.

Those are the kind of guys I call "stand up guys".


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Craig; I also feel for you and the situation. Do you happen to recall what state the license plates showed on the "Bowtech Guys" vehicle?
 
I wish someone from the other party would tell their side of the story! Why the heck would you want to shoot a bull someone else shot. I'm of the opinion that if the bull had not been shot that it's anyone's game. You can't go through the woods saying every animal you see is yours. So I wonder if they knew it had been shot. Obviously once the g&f got involved they knew that it had been shot, so were they still hunting it? Really? Why didn't they try and help find it? I understand they are in the business of finding a bull for their client and it's a short hunt so maybe they didn't have time. But REALLY you are going to try and hunt a bull that you know someone else shot and is tracking. Why would you even want to get involved in that mess. Maybe they were just hunting in that area still since their camp is there? I guess everyone has their own opinion about things, maybe they think that it's who ever gets the kill shot claims the bull. Doesn't sound right to me, but hey I'm just a guy in front of a computer wishing he was out hunting living vicariously through the hunting stories of other.
 
>Craig; I also feel for
>you and the situation.
>Do you happen to recall
>what state the license plates
>showed on the "Bowtech Guys"
>vehicle?


it was an arizona wildlife conservation plate that read DBLUNG
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-11 AT 02:48PM (MST)[p]I've always wanted to make that statement. I live "vicariously" though others too, I just never knew how to spell it. Shows how smart I am huh? Lol

Great post.

***Edit for Spelling***

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Just received a text. The hunters that you guys are trashing will indeed be posting their side of the story, as soon as internet service is available.
 
What ever happened to just go huntin.... all these spotters on every ridge. The outfitter has a posse of guys with him to kill a big bull at all cost. Ruin another mans dream, hunt ...no big deal as long as he can have the "client" with the money get his bull..what a crock of bull$%#@.
Next time I draw a great AZ tag I'll have a chip on my shoulder for sure and have to bring my 2 sons, my brother and his boys just to stay safe from those outfitter gangsters. AZG&F needs to do something about this BS. Not every hunter that has waited a long time for that tag will just ....let it go. An early AZ archery unit 10 tag ain't easy to come by.
Yea, I sure would like to know who all was involved....What goes around comes around.
 
I'm glad to see that you posted up your side of the story that is first hand. Now we will wait for the hunt to end to find out the other side of the story, also first hand (that will happen). Then the members of this forum (and the other forums you are posting on)can ask the questions to both yourself and the other hunter to answer. Not once has the other hunter trashed you on the World Wide Web for everyone on earth to see but you have done a pretty good job of trashing him with personal information and trashing Bowtech! I hope this does not end up in court with a defamation of character and slander suit since you have already posted this same stuff up on a few forums with personal information! This is the kind of stuff that get people hurt, I don't think anybody wants to see that!!I wish this could have been a different scenario with the bull down and your smiling face over it! I would rather read a post of a great trophy down than to read trash, I truly do mean that. I also believe that in your mind, most of what you stated is true. I wish you the best of luck on the rest of your hunt, we all wait for a long time for the opportunity to do this. I hope everyone can reserve opinion till the other hunter has his day to tell his side of the story!
 
Unless the other hunter comes on here and states that he wasn't chasing a bull he knew another hunter shot or that he did not chase the bull after he gave his word he would not my opinion does not change. Not that anyone cares what my opinion is. I can appriciate the rest of your post though, except the defimation part, that'll never happen. And a licence plate is not personal information. He didn't post the guys SSN.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
I wonder how much a 400"bull on a poster with a Bowtech guy standing over it is worth. From that first hand account sound like that the picture was worth enough to screw up someone's hunt. But that is the one side of the story.

Anyone get the GW name, Maybe he will have something to add.
Usually when a guy starts talking lawsuits and stuff, it because he only have that one card left to play(it kind like playing that race card).

Can't wait to hear the other side of this one. Maybe the PR firm will get involvled too.

Sure would be funny seeing a GW hauled into court to tell what he new about the case and maybe have to give his point of view on it.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I could take gettin sued in court, people get sued every day... I couldn't take loosing a 400 inch AZ bull because of some Outfitter/Hunter/Crew that think they own all the bulls and the land . You hear about this chit every year in AZ.
 
This is funny stuff, I am going to sue you, be careful...lol....I would counter sue for messing up a once in a lifetime hunt...maybe there is a feillow MMer that is a lawyer that could help with this...sue for messing up his once in a lifetime hunt that took him decades to draw....lol..

I am just stirring the pot, this is good stuff.....maybe next time help him look for the bull and finish the job, its a shame that there is a wounded bull out there that is that big and we are having a fight over it...someone with good character would have helped with the situation of making sure the bull was down.
 
LOL / There is no suit, that was my little wrench in the mix to see how many people would run with it, like the Bowtech stuff. Really guys, Bowtech staff, shooter/rep, posters. You guys are killing me. Im going out and buying a Playboy Bunny for my back window and all the chicks will think I'm Hugh Hefner. I will have three chicks half my age and a show on T.V. AND all the drama we have here but have fun doing it!!
 
It sure is disgusting how bad unit 9 and 10 have become with outfitters and guides who will pass on ethics for money. You can't go in these units without several stories like this, and although I don't know the truth behind this one, I hear similar thiongs with friends who have tags each year. There are 4-5 guides with reputations for this, but they produce bulls and people book them, so it won't stop!
 
I have not read any posts in this thread and I won't. This will be my only post. I don't know either of the hunters involved but have had contact with both parties today. I was asked by both, to have this thread nuked. The hearsay and accusations are way out of control.

The gossip and armchair hunters are as sad for our sport if not more so than this whole situation. It's Brians site and he can do as he pleases. Im asking, per a request from people involved on both sides, that this thread be locked or deleted entirely.

Stan
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-11 AT 05:24AM (MST)[p]Nuke a thread where no names have been mentioned? The closest thing to personal info was a licence plate.

All you really have here is hunters sharing thier opinions on a messed up situation. And AZ402, if you haven't read any of the posts, how do you know what has been said or if there have been accusations?

Because there were probably no laws truly broken, this is a chance for us as hunters to police our own. If we don't stand up and say what we, as an American culture, think is appropriate and not appropriate who will? There are laws that govern how we are expected to act in the field according to the law but there are no laws that say how we should act as a culture. We set our own standard. We police our own. The majority says what is acceptable and not acceptable. They teach ethics in Hunters Education but past that we are left to our own devices. If sportsman don't have a venue, like this, to share our concerns about the direction our sport is going then what will happen? What will happen if there are not voices to hold back the tide of those seeking to take advantage of our wildlife for profit? I do NOT think guides are the problem here guys. They fill a need. If I look to my left on this page right here I see a long list of reputable guides that have proven over many years that they love what they do and do it ethically. Lets not make this about guides. The problem is our own need to fill some hole in ourselves that says "If I shoot a record bull I'm more of a man". Should we NOT strive to do our best... NO! Should we strive to do our best for our OWN gratification? Absolutley! Should we strive and work for that giant bull so that others can tell us how good we are? NO!!! We should, as a culture, teach others that this a life of self-fullfilment. We deem what is a trophy in our own eyes an strive for that goal. We need to stop basing our personal value on what other think of us, and start basing it on what we think of ourselves and teach our kids that same value!

The only rule that was deffinately broken in this situation was the Golden Rule.

Heres the deal brothers, if we aren't careful we will start to see game and fish start a lottery for guides on hunts as well, to limit how many guides can work on a certain unit... You don't think it can happen? Let this crap keep happening and see what they do! Let the wrong person get messed with on a hunt, say a commissoner, and see if things don't change! Let a senator or congressman have a hunt ruined by this crap and see what happens. Remember what Harry Reid did to boil George Taulmans dreams of no non-resident cap?

Mark my words, if we do not police our own, the government will do it for us!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Amen on that AZWALKER. Something really does need to be done ! I don't think some people realize how important these AZ elk tags are to some. You wait for years to draw the tag, spend alot of money on points and hunting license every year then you draw it and this kind of thing happens. You know it will be a real long time before you draw again or maybe you never will draw it again. The outfitters don't have a tag every year but they are out there with their clients every day, every year. They get to experiance the thrill of hunting AZ elk every year, every year...With some of these guys it doesn't seem to matter how long it took the DIY hunter to draw, they want to put their client on a big bull no matter who they have to run over. I think if a guy hires an outfitter he should only be allowed to be out with the... "outfitter/guide only"... and not a crew of guys intimadating others, spotting, useing radios and so on. Being up on the mountain is getting to be like walking down a dark alley in LA. It's getting to be just like every thing else in this country any more ....NO RESPECT for others.
This is Brian's site and I've got respect for him but nuking this would be pretty weak!
For a lot of guys this ain't no joke!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-11 AT 08:02AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-11 AT 07:59?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-11 AT 07:49?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-11 AT 07:48?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-11 AT 07:47?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-11 AT 07:46?AM (MST)

>I have not read any posts
>in this thread and I
>won't. This will be
>my only post. I
>don't know either of the
>hunters involved but have had
>contact with both parties today.
> I was asked by
>both, to have this thread
>nuked. The hearsay and
>accusations are way out of
>control.
>
>The gossip and armchair hunters are
>as sad for our sport
>if not more so than
>this whole situation. It's
>Brians site and he can
>do as he pleases.
>Im asking, per a request
>from people involved on both
>sides, that this thread be
>locked or deleted entirely.
>
>Stan


i keep reading this and wonder how - why STAN would have contact with people he don't even know or why they would contact him and ask something like this -

I'm just wondering who STAN is to get personally involved with both parties !!??

hasn't read anything but knows the hearsay and accusations are out of control ??
 
What you thinking of a nuke job with out the other side of the story.

Richard I guess some-one told you to be quiet about talking about suits and stuff, But nice try on the clean-up. LOL

Did the hunter who shot this bull ask for a nuke job, if he did then by all means nuke it, if he didn't and some-one else did tell them to go fish. Wondering who is the bad guy here.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
AZ402, I ma in no way attacking you in my last post. I understand your intentions I believe them to be noble.

I don't believe deleting or locking this thread does anything but hide the mistakes of others. If the posts containing the licence plate of hunter need to be deleted, cool I get that but this is an honest discussion about a growing concern among many in the hunting community.

- previously had very strong words for the second hunter and those in his group. In retrospect I should have chosen a different approach. If I put myself in either scenerio o can see how a situation could escalate to the point this one did. We are hunters, we get excited and we make mistakes. I in no way condone what occured but I can see how a good guy can make a bad decision. "Bowtech" may be a great guy but if what was portayed in previous posts truly did occur, he blew it and blew it big.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
>I'm just wondering who STAN
>is to get personally
> involved with both parties
>!!??
>
>hasn't read anything but knows
>the hearsay and accusations are
>out of control ??

Really?
You don't think that his statements were well intentioned and he wanted to be clear that he wasn't one sided and trying to protect/represent one side over the other?

You don't think that both parties invloved could make the decision that what is on this thread is out of control? So Stan needs to READ the thread in order to post?

You don't think that just maybe, the two parties involved may have figured the request may have carried more weight if made by Stan? If you knew him you would understand why.

...but c'mon...seriously.

4678aec03a21ae00.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-11 AT 10:12AM (MST)[p]just wonderin how stan got involved as mediator

we have not heard from the second party - only second hand
 
I didn't ask for this thread to be removed. I stand by my words as they are the facts. I was also asked by my best friend and guide to stop making post for the time being.
 
Aren't there still 7 days left in the hunt?

Get your butt back up there and knock down a toad! I wouldn't let a minute of a unit 10 hunt pass for any reason!
 
I don't have a dog in this fight but I have done a bit of elk hunting in Az. The simple fact is that both parties have a right to continue hunting this elk. The elk wasn't put down for good and while different people react differently we are all failing to realize that elk could have traveled MILES after a brief rest and very well still could be. While I don't condone anybody's behavior on this if the elk was hit poorly there may/may not have been any visable evidence that he was hit well enough for the other hunters to observe.

As to AZ 402 giving his input, knowing what I know of him I'd say he is most likely giving the straight scoop. It's a bad situation at best but wounding a bull doesn't give anyone entitlement to that animal, while killing the animal does. I helped a friend track a bull for 2 days a few years back and that elk went into a completely different unit and according to the guy he was hit well, somebody just forgot to tell the bull.

Everybody pays their money to hunt and emotions and horns have clouded many an issue over the years but the bottom line is that neither party broke any laws and that bull was still walking around and that right there gives any tag holder in the unit the right to hunt him too. It's a damn shame this happened to the guy on his hunt but most guys that book a 5 or 7 day expensive hunt with any guide usually aren't going to stop their hunt and give up their time and quit hunting a 400 inch bull that's still on his feet and moving when it takes them years to draw a tag. If that elk would have been unable to get up we probably wouldn't be having this thread and the guy probably would have wound up tagging him. For all we know that bull may heal up and we may be hunting him next year. It's unfortunate but it's part of hunting.
 
Did I just get called an armchair hunter by the mediator? ironic :) sorry I couldn't resist
 
No Gator that was all me. No one ever said anything about law suits and no one said to kill the law suit talk. Just cant help but laugh how people can run with something. I should not have done that, this is not the thread for jokes.

Got a question for you though, seems like you have been around hunting for awhile. Don't you think if a Game Warden had the chance to give a citation to an outfitter/guide and a "Bowtech" staff shooter at the same time he wouldn't have jumped all over it? Wouldn't that be like the Warden bagging a 400 inch bull? I mean anything with the remote possibility of being illegal?

Agree with you to a certain point on policing our own, peer pressure on hunters to do the right thing is good so long as both parties have posted their sides and a fair trial is given on facts. Way too often someone will post something like the original poster did on 2nd hand information and people think its Gospel. At least we now have half the story from first hand info.

Trust me when I say that both outfitters do not want any part of this, right or wrong. Confrontation is a hard thing to sell.


As far as the instigators, hope this does not ever happen to you!
 
The three GW I know wouldn't give out a ticket if there is a dispute involving muti-people saying alot of different stories.
They would try and get them to let things go and get everyone to settledown and move on.

Now that being said you can bet they are still looking at the groups and trying to figure out if anybody done anything wrong.

I do agree on the post up above. limited season, once in a lifetime hunt(in most cases) 400" bull shot still walking (could die or couldn't die). If he walked in front of me I would be shooting and tagging.
Because as a hunter a wouldn't know if he was going to die or live until I was done shooting.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
so how many more days till we get the rebuttal

Thursday is the last day of archery season.

comeon somebody must have an update as to if this bull has been recovered or is still being hunted or something?

was easy to get info second hand before - come on we need more action !
 
I just spoke with someone partially involved with this mess and was told that the bull was recovered on the 3rd day after being shot and was recovered by the "Bowtech" guy.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-11 AT 02:58PM (MST)[p]LOL / WOW, no he DID NOT recover the bull and HE IS STILL HUNTING as of a few minutes ago. Wish I would have read this before hanging up.
 
maybe recovered was the wrong word

is there a chance that the "group" did find the dead bull

of course he's still huntin - who'd want to tag someone elses dead bull
 
Really / Really?

No one from the group or the posse or Bowtech, or Bowtech staff has the bull or the rack. Lets try to keep it real okay guys! Pretty sure the G&F is watching BOTH parties pretty close!!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-11
>AT 02:48?PM (MST)
>
>I've always wanted to make that
>statement. I live "vicariously" though
>others too, I just never
>knew how to spell it.
>Shows how smart I am
>huh? Lol
>
>Great post.
>
>***Edit for Spelling***
>
>"The deadliest weapon in the world
>is a Marine and his
>rifle." General John J. "Black
>Jack" Pershing, US Army
>"Most men go through life wondering
>if they made a difference,
>Marines don't have that problem."
>President Ronald Regan


That just made me laugh out loud.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-11 AT 06:05PM (MST)[p]
]



I'm just supposin here -

how long did "anyone" spend time lookin for this bull-.
both know exact spot it was last bedded.
both know it was hit by the arrow
-
we all know a bull when pushed can go a long way or it will find the thickest stuff and stay put.

we all know a wounded animal can last several days and is usually visible within afew - it does try to survive
if fact seen arrow wounded bulls back chasin cows
we all know a dead animal - attracts birds- crows/vultures within a few days.
making it easier to find.
we all know a dead animal will stink so much - you can usually smell it from a long ways off.
making it easier to find
I'm just tryin to figure - what happened to this bull.



what a waste of a great bull- i seriously doubt he has survived.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-11 AT 11:14PM (MST)[p]If it was a high single lung shot he will probably survive and alot of it has to do with being pushed. Once that bull gets up and starts running, he will be pumping air into his lungs which will aid in the wound clotting up. The other thing he will do is head for water. He'll start running a fever and want to go drink. He's also rutting and he'll need to cool off just because of that.

Had he been left alone, the wound might not have clotted fast enough and he would've drown in his own blood... maybe. The other thing that would have happened is the gases and air would've built up inside his body cavity above the diaphram making it more and more difficult to breath. He eventually would have stoved up and not been able to move because of all the pressure on his heart and lungs. Left alone he probably would have died.

Nobody really knows for sure. Each animal is different.

Ted Nugent tells a story about a buck he shot. He shot the buck with his bow right in the kill zone. looked and looked and never found the deer. Back in the same area weeks later, see's a deer walk out all frail and sick looking so he shot it. Turned out to be the same buck. When he opened the buck up one lung was collapsed and rotting inside the deer.

Whatever happens, I hope the animal lives... because at this point, if he's dead... its a complete waste.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-11 AT 11:02AM (MST)[p]

well - i believe this bull has been found! DEAD

but look at the situation - they really can not claim it !

heres what the law reads

, if an individual in the field finds dead wildlife, or any part of an animal he or she did not legally take during the hunt, then that individual may not automatically possess and /or transport any of it.

If an individual wishes to keep such wildlife parts found in the field (other than shed antlers), he/she must contact the Arizona Game and Fish Department so an officer can determine the cause of death of the animal. If it is determined the animal died from a natural cause, such as predation, disease, fights, falls, drowning, lightning, etc., the wildlife part may be possessed by the individual. If the officer determines the animal died from an unnatural cause, such as wounding loss, illegal activity or vehicle collision, no part of the wildlife may be possessed or transported.



so now if anyyone finds/shows a record book set of antlers found out of unit 10 - hopefully they are "honest" enough to report it and follow the law

if you look at this whole senerio - "if" they've gone this far - how far will the go from here
 
It would be sad if the bull is dead. But... what a mess it would be if this DBLUNG guy showed up with a 400" bull. At this point it would take every ounce of enjoyment out of it for him. I mean in that mindset, whats it worth having a 400" bull? He can't show it off without being hung in a public square. And... it really doesn't matter how he got it, most would not listen to his side of the story.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
azwalker, im not directing this towards you just hoping on this messed up band wagon. this is my first post on MM and i have learned alot of things the last few years i have been reading these posts. i am from the eastern part of the us and love hunting out west. i have made alot of good friends and met a few good guides. i have shot a few good elk, mulies, antelope and lions along the way. thank god i was with people who knew the country well. it blows my mind to see some of the posts some of you guys post here. i see alot of jealous, cutthroat people here. i may not live out west but i still live in the united states and am just as entilted to hunt on public land i paid for. if it was not for non resident dollars elk hunting and hunting in general would not be as good as it is in the west. if this whole story is true about this elk hunt then the tag line of sad day for our sport is true. i would not have wanted to be there if this kind of hunters were in the area hunting this elk. i was lucky and drew a late season unit 27 elk tag in 2008 and had a great hunt with trophy outfitters out of eagar az. i saw lots of hunters and a few other guides but everybody had respect for each other. it is sad to hear all this nonsense about who can claim a bull. hunt for yourself and respect your fellow hunter if not you are the downfall of our great reasource and sport we all love. i do know one thing it would be a cold day in hell before i would let this crap go on if this was my hunt. if any of this is true from what is reported i would never want to hunt or be associated with the other party that has been described here. i have 4 points right now for arizona elk and am looking to hunt this great state again sometime time soon and i would not like to run into the likes of anybody who has been described in this story.
 
For gawd sakes guys, don't people beat down other people anymore?

when do we get to hear about the final match? can we get some height and weight numbers? I'm bout ready to start placin bets lol.
 
Boskee.

If what you wrote is true about the bulls being fair game if it is still alive, then bow hunting is done.

What is legal is not exactly how things run. If a hit bull is bedded up, don't you think it might be the correct course to let it be?????



Even if all this is a complete fabrication and never even happened, I still have a problem with your post.

If spotters sent in a hunter after a bull that had been hit and bedded, then whom ever those spotters/outfitter/outfit are, they are in the wrong.
 
I can see boskee point of view A) you didn't see the bull shot so you are hunting it because you don't know or B) you find the bull sometime later still wandering around like it's not going to die anytime soon and you finish it off and you tag it, although if it came to a confrontation I would probably still give it to the first shooter. I'm with you need4x4 on these set of fact wether fact or fiction from the point of view of this way the story has been told you don't run and cut someone off while your spotters are up telling you that another hunter has shot the animal. I just can't see how anyone could say that was a ethical way of hunting and be proud of themselves.



"I'm just a guy in front of a computer, wishing he was out hunting, living vicariously through the hunting stories of others." Mountainman99
 
NEED 4X4, If you notice what I posted I stated that I didn't condone anyones action in this situation so I fail to see where I endorsed anybody in this I posted to merely clarify. But lets elaborate on things a bit here. The reason the G&F officer couldn't do anything is because nobody was breaking the law and he most likely had little to no idea about the animals wounds and I'll bet the stories about the intensity of the wounds & condition were vastly different. These types of situation aren't specific to archery these things happen many times over during our firearms seasons. When a guy takes a shot and the bull runs over the hill and somebody else shoots it and tags it.

What happened if another uninvolved hunter completely unaware of the situation had walked up on that bull and it jumped up and he put the finishing shot on him with a bow is he not entitled to that bull? I've hunted elk for many years and have seen more than my share of animals that somebody thought should be dead that weren't,but don't assume that any bull elk that's been shot with a bow can't go on because it bedded up because that's just as wrong. Many wounds inflicted by many weapons aren't mortal. Wounding an animal though tragic, is one of the bad things that happen in the field. Everybody's in a tough situation here and I learned a long time ago that if 3 people see something happen you're going to get three different perspectives on just what happened and if they're involved their emotions can cloud the issue a bit.

I wasn't there so I'm not passing judgement on anyone but my guess is that some other guy will wind up with this bull. To ease your mind I'd have let the guy wait to see if his bull expired but it was unrealistice on his part to think anyone would have stayed away for 2 days and be upset by the fact they didn't. The best advice given was the post that I endorsed by another poster that said get out there and keep hunting.


Most people will do the right thing the majority of the time but the fact the shot wasn't lethal is really the bottom line here and that clouded the issue right from the start. The fact the other camp had non-hunting participants further aggravates the situation and that right there is an area we need to see changed but good luck on that. I doubt you'll get anything done when they want to encourage people to get into the field to increase desire to apply. Archers constantly have stalks broken up by firearms hunters scouting during their hunt in the field and that's been going on for years. Think a few of those guys may have a grievance? If you don't like it work to change it but you also need to understand you will meet some stiff opposition on that subject....even though they don't want any interference on their hunts...go figure.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-11 AT 12:56PM (MST)[p]i'm fairly sure the account tells of following a blood trail - and G&F taking pictures bloody arrow (oops) this is the edit !

99% sure a wound would have been visible to anyone close enough to shoot with stick and or observre with bino's

hit high in shoulder blood running/ dripping off body would most likely be very noticable - don't you think!

all kinds of what if's
 
If I was the manufacturer, I'd like to get this sorted out just for the sake of cleaning out any miss-conceptions.

I think the total number of people needs some limit. Legally, this might not be possible.

This sort of commando/team hunting is making a zoo out of the hunt in some cases.

I think it might be a little different in the rifle season boskee. I get your point, just don't feel this type of behavior is acceptable even if it isn't something they can get a ticket from the GW, it is still wrong.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-11 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]SO what's your point Muley maniac? The elk clearly wasn't dead and the warden would have told the other group they couldn't have hunted him if it was an issue. That's not a what if... that's a fact and that's why they had as much right to it as the other guy did. What's morally right in your mind or mine and what's legal are two different things entirely. You take the same chances exactly if you leave a wounded elk over night and somebody kills it the next morning. The hunt ends when you kill the elk and tag it, not when he's wounded, and that poor guy didn't have any legal right to that elk until his tag was on it, then in the eyes of the law it became his, if taken by legal means, which he clearly was trying to do. When you tag it, you possess it at that point and it's legally yours but not until... No what Ifs, ands, wishes, or butts!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-11 AT 03:52PM (MST)[p]Boskee wrote: "he most likely had little to no idea about the animals wounds"

If he didn't know about the wounds then why did he commit to waiting for 2 days? Then, he goes after it after 2 hours???

The problem is he knew about the wounds. They went in a pushed that bull plain and simple. If it was a marginal shot, pushing the bull would greatly increase the odds the bull would survive.

This is the part of the story everyone has a problem with. If the guy didn't know the bull was wounded when he pulled up in his truck, he did soon after. And even if he didn't know prior to pushing the bull, he damn sure knew when he saw the bloody arrow G&F took a picture of. So why promise to wait two days, then go in that same day?

Sorry it doesn't add up to me. I've imagined every scenerio possible and in every scenerio the second hunter goes in after a bull he knows is wounded.

Thats what I have an issue with.

**EDIT**

Boskee, i completely get what you're saying and you're right. But like I said in one of my many many prior posts, the law may be the law but right is right and we need to put pressure on guys that are doing stuff like this. This isn't acceptable. 90% of the guys on this board either said or insinuated that they would not have gone after that bull knowing the bull was wounded... and a fresh wound at that. Be a man, accept you got beat to the punch and move on!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-11 AT 07:04PM (MST)[p]Donny you didn't beat me to any punch. There were guys here that said what they did was wrong and ethically yes it was but when you're hunting you have to know what the law actually is and that given the fact you wounded an animal, in no way entitles you to it. The law is specifically written that way so that it encourages the hunter to only take good shots. Think about the other side and what a mess we'd have if it was the other way. I stated in my posts that I didn't condone what happened in this instance you may want to check that out and look up the meaning if uncertain.

If you think you're going to change how anybody acts on the internet it's you who's being niave. Those guys would have stepped over you in a second to get to that bull and while you're crying foul they're killing your bull! You aren't going to orchestrate morality to them at this point in life. The sky isn't falling and yes the guy got a bum deal but we as hunters need to be aware of what can happen legally if and when we take that shot because not every story has a happy ending. Should we police our own yep but good luck on that, because the minute the situation comes up again these guys or some others just like them will more than likely do the same thing. Funny how when you know the law you can actually use it to protect you which is exactly what these characters did. I'll tell you what, you get the law changed on group hunting and I'll support you 100% gladly. Until then having some basic understanding of the regulations can be beneficial to all of us going forward. Try taking your opinion, ethics, and morals into a court of law see how far it gets you...... then you'll really understand how much it matters. It doesn't make it right either, but it shows you how much weight it carries. Sad but true.

I'm sorry but I want all the facts before I get the rope out to hang anyone. I'd rather see a guilty man swing than one who hasn't broken a law and is found guilty by heresay. You may not agree with this but age has taught me that walking is better than jumping to any conclusion. If they're guilty then eventually they'll pay one way or the other and that's as it should be.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-11 AT 07:32PM (MST)[p]"Be a man, accept you got beat to the punch and move on!"

That wasn't directed toward you brother. I was speaking about those who would chase a wounded bull... lol... sorry I didn't clarify that. I re-read it and yeah it does sound like I was talking about you.

I feel kinda stupid!

*EDIT*

I get what you're saying and sadly I think you're right.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
caelkhnter get your chit straight the only thing "sad for our sport" is people like you starting all this BS without having all the facts. you state one thing in post 12 that the bull was not seen bedded then change your mind and say it was bedded 200 yrds after hit in post 15. If you were not there stay out of the discussion!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-11 AT 06:19PM (MST)[p]Wow a little over the top don't you think. Really did I bring alot of BS on this forum? As was made clear by the post made by the actual hunter, the fact that the Bowtech group chased after, what they knew was a bedded wounded bull, and then failed to abide by their agreement to let the hunter have 2 days to try and retrieve it after they had jumped it, is a sad example of what is happening in our sport. I think it is of value to report and discuss these type of incidents, yes even on a forum such as this. By and large the facts as I reported them have been confirmed by the actual hunter involved, so I disagree with your position that since I was not there I never should have reported the incident. You disagree, so be it. But I do not regret bringing this story to this forum.
 
Who knows.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 

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