H
hunter1
Guest
how dose everyone feel that the 10% cap is now in effect for arizona archery deer in select units of arizona or resdents haveing to choose bow or rifle in the draw.
B
Bulzeye
Guest
It's about time the Kaibab went to a draw. My only problem is that AZ G&F does not require hunter check in with rifle hunters like it does with archery hunters. This could skew the numbers and tag allocations between the different hunts.
C
cpugsie
Guest
I stopped hunting the Kaibab almost 10 years ago because it just got to be a zoo! People driving everywhere on closed roads, through meadows, people camped on top of water holes. It just wasn't fun anymore. I think an archery draw on the Kaibab is long over due. Also, there's not as many deer as there used to be either. G & F thought it neccessary to take out 10,000 does over a 5 year period which in my mind ruined the quality and quantity of the heard. I think they should have only had 500 tags for two different hunts (1000 total still) to make it a more premium hunt though. As for the other areas that are changed to a draw I'm not sure why they did that. I never saw that many people archery hunting in a couple of the units effected. Who know???
"I did not know that you will have to choose rifle or archery. I havent heard anything about that. I f thats the case they should do the same with elk. "
You do have to choose rifle or archery when applying for elk. Archery deer going to a draw is long overdue in many units in AZ. It just may help bring back the deer herds.
It's Bush's fault!!!
You do have to choose rifle or archery when applying for elk. Archery deer going to a draw is long overdue in many units in AZ. It just may help bring back the deer herds.
It's Bush's fault!!!
H
hunter1
Guest
scremin it will be just like elk you can still put in rifle first choice second choice archery bab or what ever but what i was sayin is the guys that go to the kaibab and have already drawn lets say 17a rifle deer tags now that will have to hunt an otc unit instead of the kaibab if they choose to put in there regular rifle choices.
unit 1 731 hunters 13 deer killed 2% success
3a 3c 293 hunters 9 deer killed 3% success
unit 7 1038 hunters 30 deer killed 3% success
unit 12a 1705 hunters 106 deer killed 6% success
unit 13a 145 hunters 4 deer killed 3% success.
The only unit that I can see that really needs to go to a draw is 12a. These numbers are from the game and fish web site and are from 2005, but it gives you an idea of how many deer are killed in the units that are going to a draw. The only benefit for the other areas is less crowding and that is always a good thing.
3a 3c 293 hunters 9 deer killed 3% success
unit 7 1038 hunters 30 deer killed 3% success
unit 12a 1705 hunters 106 deer killed 6% success
unit 13a 145 hunters 4 deer killed 3% success.
The only unit that I can see that really needs to go to a draw is 12a. These numbers are from the game and fish web site and are from 2005, but it gives you an idea of how many deer are killed in the units that are going to a draw. The only benefit for the other areas is less crowding and that is always a good thing.
D
DH
Guest
I heard that all of the northern units in the state (1,27,3a-3c,etc) were going to a draw. I think that it will only help the deer out more. All of us know that all archery deer kills dont get reported.
The only other areas going to a draw that I didnt list above are 3b,12b and 13b. The 12b hunt had 0% success for three years in a row. No reason for that to go to a draw, as most of the deer are in Utah, or on the kaibab during August and September. As for the 13b hunt, I bet the draw odds will be low on that. Should be some big deer taken for those who draw!
LAST EDITED ON Apr-15-08 AT 04:28AM (MST)[p]Mixed emotions.
I think 12a and 13a definitely needed it, long past due, Congrats G&F. I agree 12b probably didn't need it, but they just decided to move all units N of the Ditch together and added 13b, so a good move.
For the rest of the units south of the ditch, I just think its a move toward a future, bigger plan. The rest of the state in a draw, yes that's obvious, but that's not my concern. I'm more worried about the # of rifle tags that continue to hold steady, and this "opportunity" mentality, crowding and trying to reduce success rates to increase opportunity.
Look at the proposed rifle seasons coming, moving 3/4 of the tags from two separate seasons into one season, trying to reduce hunter success yet still harvest the same number of rifle bucks in hopes of selling more tags.
If you want to reduce archery kills to increase the heard, then I'm all for it and take my tag, but don't do it to sell more or the same amount of rifle tags. This is where I feel we need more wildlife management and less business suppply and demand management that I see. If I'm sacrificing just to balance opportunity for rifle hunters and not based on improving the heard then something is wrong in my mind. Especially with no actual data on harvest, and only skewed guesstimates as those harvest statisitcs already posted. Ridiculous.
They won't sell more total tags now that archery tags are reduced, but they can kill more rifle deer and less archery. Its not what I want to see as an archer. I see the archers carrying the weight of poor management.
Some units desperately need a cut in rifle tags as well, the G&F just doesn't see it that way.
I think 12a and 13a definitely needed it, long past due, Congrats G&F. I agree 12b probably didn't need it, but they just decided to move all units N of the Ditch together and added 13b, so a good move.
For the rest of the units south of the ditch, I just think its a move toward a future, bigger plan. The rest of the state in a draw, yes that's obvious, but that's not my concern. I'm more worried about the # of rifle tags that continue to hold steady, and this "opportunity" mentality, crowding and trying to reduce success rates to increase opportunity.
Look at the proposed rifle seasons coming, moving 3/4 of the tags from two separate seasons into one season, trying to reduce hunter success yet still harvest the same number of rifle bucks in hopes of selling more tags.
If you want to reduce archery kills to increase the heard, then I'm all for it and take my tag, but don't do it to sell more or the same amount of rifle tags. This is where I feel we need more wildlife management and less business suppply and demand management that I see. If I'm sacrificing just to balance opportunity for rifle hunters and not based on improving the heard then something is wrong in my mind. Especially with no actual data on harvest, and only skewed guesstimates as those harvest statisitcs already posted. Ridiculous.
They won't sell more total tags now that archery tags are reduced, but they can kill more rifle deer and less archery. Its not what I want to see as an archer. I see the archers carrying the weight of poor management.
Some units desperately need a cut in rifle tags as well, the G&F just doesn't see it that way.
13B did get cut in rifle tags, down to 45 this year. Depending if they round up or down, 4-5 nonresident tags for hundreds of top pool nonresidents (odds are none for nonresidents not in the top pool). Awesome if you draw, but sure makes you think twice about holding out for 13B rifle or nothing. Looking like a long wait. More people move into the top pool from hunter ed than drop out or draw each year.
As for the archery, if it s hot enough and does not rain enough to spread deer out before the season, could be great. The deer in 13B have not been hunted before when they have to come to water regularly.
Maybe they needed a tag cut in 13B, if so great. But taking out 1 for 1 tags to the archery hunt from the rifle hunt, considering hunter success, seems a bit much.
As for the archery, if it s hot enough and does not rain enough to spread deer out before the season, could be great. The deer in 13B have not been hunted before when they have to come to water regularly.
Maybe they needed a tag cut in 13B, if so great. But taking out 1 for 1 tags to the archery hunt from the rifle hunt, considering hunter success, seems a bit much.
DonMartin
Very Active Member
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- 2,078
The final result was 30 archery tags and 45 rifle tags for '08.
Be real interesting to see how the archers do this year. Could be either boom or bust.
Those NR with max points (11) now have a tough decision to make.
They can get (not guaranteed to get)up to three archery tags or four rifle tags (they round down on tags, up on bonus points).
A lot will depend on the quality of the archer too.
Get Randy Ulmer, Greg Krogh and guys like in there and watch out, the boomers will fall.
Get the average Arizona resident who draws and then goes to Wal-Mart for equipment--plus has never been to the 1 1/2 million acre place they call The Strip--well the odds are he won't fare nearly as well.
I think that it was smart by G&F to start off very conservatively this year with those tags. See what happens then adjust up or down next week to make for fair and equal distribution between archery/rifle hunters.
Rifle tags did need to be cut this year.
Those of us that spend time out there know that the big old boys are still there, but it ain't getting any easier, and the numbers just don't seem to be there anymore.
I've got 9 deer bonus points and as an Arizona resident, I'm in the game! NR won't draw north of the ditch for the PREMIUM hunts without max points. Sorry boys, just the facts.. Now there are 800 early westside side Kaibab tags this year, so if you want an AZ deer tag and have any points at all, you do have a chance.
After my next Strip tag (yep I had one before-brought it home after looking at 36 bucks!)I'll become a confirmed early Kaibab forkie hunter!
Course I'm also applying for a late, westside Kaibab tag this year so who knows? Might get a crack at one of those Big Boys there...
Don Martin
AWO
Be real interesting to see how the archers do this year. Could be either boom or bust.
Those NR with max points (11) now have a tough decision to make.
They can get (not guaranteed to get)up to three archery tags or four rifle tags (they round down on tags, up on bonus points).
A lot will depend on the quality of the archer too.
Get Randy Ulmer, Greg Krogh and guys like in there and watch out, the boomers will fall.
Get the average Arizona resident who draws and then goes to Wal-Mart for equipment--plus has never been to the 1 1/2 million acre place they call The Strip--well the odds are he won't fare nearly as well.
I think that it was smart by G&F to start off very conservatively this year with those tags. See what happens then adjust up or down next week to make for fair and equal distribution between archery/rifle hunters.
Rifle tags did need to be cut this year.
Those of us that spend time out there know that the big old boys are still there, but it ain't getting any easier, and the numbers just don't seem to be there anymore.
I've got 9 deer bonus points and as an Arizona resident, I'm in the game! NR won't draw north of the ditch for the PREMIUM hunts without max points. Sorry boys, just the facts.. Now there are 800 early westside side Kaibab tags this year, so if you want an AZ deer tag and have any points at all, you do have a chance.
After my next Strip tag (yep I had one before-brought it home after looking at 36 bucks!)I'll become a confirmed early Kaibab forkie hunter!
Course I'm also applying for a late, westside Kaibab tag this year so who knows? Might get a crack at one of those Big Boys there...
Don Martin
AWO
Don,
Just out of curiosity, how does the number of nonresidents entering the top pool from the hunter education class compare to the number who draw tags or drop out for other reasons? I'm guessing 1/3 to 1/2 of that pool are holding out for 13B or nothing. At 4 tags per year, not looking at eating into that pool very fast. The 20% to the top/ 10% nonresident cap combination could be changed any year, making the benifit of being in the top pool less. Should a nonresident in the top consider another late Kiabab/Strip tag as a second choice to get it when the gettin's good? Or hope for the best or nothing and just figure on hunting elsewhere?
Just out of curiosity, how does the number of nonresidents entering the top pool from the hunter education class compare to the number who draw tags or drop out for other reasons? I'm guessing 1/3 to 1/2 of that pool are holding out for 13B or nothing. At 4 tags per year, not looking at eating into that pool very fast. The 20% to the top/ 10% nonresident cap combination could be changed any year, making the benifit of being in the top pool less. Should a nonresident in the top consider another late Kiabab/Strip tag as a second choice to get it when the gettin's good? Or hope for the best or nothing and just figure on hunting elsewhere?
DonMartin
Very Active Member
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- 2,078
Fudd:
The way I read it, about 30-34 NR a year who are at the top draw.
Right now there are about the same driufting into the top pool as they realize that without that Hunter Ed point they are dead in the water.
Remember that on the Strip this year up to three tags can go to NR in the archery hunt.
I'm hearing from a lot of guys (NR) that have max points that they are putting in for it.
Last year there were 8 NR who drew out in Unit 13B (10 actually, but two of those were former AZ residents who had bought the lifetime license) and this year there will probably be seven. So no big deal there.
I see that NR pool of max point holders actually growing over the next few years. That being said the current resident pool of max bonus points is and will continue to go down.. We'll see the resident pool drop to another level WAY beofre you'll the NR pool do the same. Reason is simple math.
NR pool is growing while resident pool is decreasing.
While there are a bunch of both resident and NR hunters who are holding out for 13B or nothing, obviously there are a number of them that are applying for the late east and west Kaibab, plus 12B late too.
I apply for either a late westside Kaibab tag or a 12B late tag as my second choice every year.
Good luck, hope this helps!
Don Martin
The way I read it, about 30-34 NR a year who are at the top draw.
Right now there are about the same driufting into the top pool as they realize that without that Hunter Ed point they are dead in the water.
Remember that on the Strip this year up to three tags can go to NR in the archery hunt.
I'm hearing from a lot of guys (NR) that have max points that they are putting in for it.
Last year there were 8 NR who drew out in Unit 13B (10 actually, but two of those were former AZ residents who had bought the lifetime license) and this year there will probably be seven. So no big deal there.
I see that NR pool of max point holders actually growing over the next few years. That being said the current resident pool of max bonus points is and will continue to go down.. We'll see the resident pool drop to another level WAY beofre you'll the NR pool do the same. Reason is simple math.
NR pool is growing while resident pool is decreasing.
While there are a bunch of both resident and NR hunters who are holding out for 13B or nothing, obviously there are a number of them that are applying for the late east and west Kaibab, plus 12B late too.
I apply for either a late westside Kaibab tag or a 12B late tag as my second choice every year.
Good luck, hope this helps!
Don Martin
If I knew that they are not going to change the draw rules anytime soon (next 10+ years), and will it stay an exclusive club for top pool nonresidents, I'd hold out for 13B or nothing. I can always hunt mulies elsewhere as a nonresident. But they can change the rules any year and make being in the top pool not as valuable and make it less likely to pull the 13B tag before dying.
Don,
I know it is just your guess. Think AZ will change the top pool nonresident deal anytime soon? Hear any rumors? Think this is a good rainfall year to try a second pick on, but really want 13B once before I die. As a middle aged NR in the top pool, I can draw a strip/late Kiabab no more than once if the rules do not change, but may likely never draw if they do....
Thanks,
Elmer
I know it is just your guess. Think AZ will change the top pool nonresident deal anytime soon? Hear any rumors? Think this is a good rainfall year to try a second pick on, but really want 13B once before I die. As a middle aged NR in the top pool, I can draw a strip/late Kiabab no more than once if the rules do not change, but may likely never draw if they do....
Thanks,
Elmer
DonMartin
Very Active Member
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- 2,078
Fudd:
You're right about this all being just an educated guess.
My feeling is that G&F can't and won't change that bonus point system now, too many deep in it.
It sure is gonna get tougher to draw a 13B rifle tag as a NR, as the number of tags available has dropped significantly (from 8 in 2007 to 4 in '09)unless you are an archer (up to three available, however there are still a good number of tags that COULD be drawn (17) on the late west side Kaibab hunt.
Is that hunt as good as the Strip? Boy you can argue that point all day long.
Like I said, I'm going for it. I've had Strip tag once, and been to the Kaibab on that late west side hunt enough times in the last 20 years to know the potential to get a real toad is also there.
After I draw this time, either Strip or the Kaibab, I'll start putting in for the early Kaibab (west side) or a late whitetail tag.
In the mean time I'm hoping to be hunting with some lucky NR or resident up there this fall. Last year we muffed two big bucks. This year they'll be bigger....
That's my favorite spot to hunt deer....
Hope this helps,
Don Martin
AWO
Yep, going to be real interesting this year!
You're right about this all being just an educated guess.
My feeling is that G&F can't and won't change that bonus point system now, too many deep in it.
It sure is gonna get tougher to draw a 13B rifle tag as a NR, as the number of tags available has dropped significantly (from 8 in 2007 to 4 in '09)unless you are an archer (up to three available, however there are still a good number of tags that COULD be drawn (17) on the late west side Kaibab hunt.
Is that hunt as good as the Strip? Boy you can argue that point all day long.
Like I said, I'm going for it. I've had Strip tag once, and been to the Kaibab on that late west side hunt enough times in the last 20 years to know the potential to get a real toad is also there.
After I draw this time, either Strip or the Kaibab, I'll start putting in for the early Kaibab (west side) or a late whitetail tag.
In the mean time I'm hoping to be hunting with some lucky NR or resident up there this fall. Last year we muffed two big bucks. This year they'll be bigger....
That's my favorite spot to hunt deer....
Hope this helps,
Don Martin
AWO
Yep, going to be real interesting this year!
A
azwm
Guest
cpugsie:
>G & F thought it
>neccessary to take out 10,000
>does over a 5 year
>period which in my mind
>ruined the quality and quantity
>of the heard.
However,
The G&F actually harvested 4006 does over a 9 year period (average of 445/year) which is dramatically lower than the figure quoted.
thanks,
azwm
>G & F thought it
>neccessary to take out 10,000
>does over a 5 year
>period which in my mind
>ruined the quality and quantity
>of the heard.
However,
The G&F actually harvested 4006 does over a 9 year period (average of 445/year) which is dramatically lower than the figure quoted.
thanks,
azwm
