Book Cliffs Decline

T

tstewy

Guest
Ok maybe it's just me but i wanted to get some thought on this i feel that the book cliffs quality has really suffered the last couple of years. In fact i would dare say that the first buck you see that is 170+ you better be thinking hard about droping it. Are there big deer down there is there still a few 190+ bucks there yes. But the days of alot of big bucks down there are done if i had a muzzy or rifle tag i would shoot the first 170 class buck i saw and feel good about it. And be happy and i spend alot of time down there each year. So what are your guys thoughts.
 
Its hard to make a big 2 point into a 170-180 class buck..... It needs a management hunt, and the number of tags cut.

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It isnt intended to be a "trophy" unit just a limited entry unit. The goal/objective for that unit is to have a good hunt with less presure, not 190 deer.



respect my authorita
 
I agree with both points of view, but if all that is left are big 2 points and 3 points then that's not really a good hunt anymore.
 
While there are quite a few big two and three points there are still plenty of nice to great four points. Its just not a 180 behind every tree kind of place. I think its awesome for what it does. You will see more deer and bucks there then almost anywhere else. It is a blast!

respect my authorita
 
I don't know if a management hunt will help anything but make it harder to draw a regular tag. It seems that alot of bucks killed out there are management bucks already

From what I have seen first hand is:
1999, My Buck 4 x 4
2006, Sisters buck 4 x 5
2006, Wifes buck 3 x 3
2008, Friends buck 3 x 4
2008, Friends Sister 4 x 5
2008, Friends Dad 4 x 4
2009, Friends Buck 3 x 4
2009, Friends Buck 4 x 4
2009, Dads Buck 4 x 5
2009, Uncles Buck 3 x 4
2010, My Buck 4 x 4
2010, Brother in Laws Buck 3 x 4
2010, Friends Dad 3 x 3
2010, Friends Buck 3 x 4

So just from my own experience we have taken 7 Quality Bucks and 7 Management Bucks. These are people I actually hunted with

I have seen what seems like about the same ratio on other deer that people have killed.

Just my thoughts.
 
It comes down to the fact that people are shooting the 2 year old 20" 4x4 rather than kill the 6 year old 3x3. Shoot the decent genetics young and leave the mature bucks with poor antler genetics to breed and pass those poor genetics on. I think they could issue 100 management tags on the unit. I have heard biologists state that the Book Cliffs antler growth is negatively affected by the high deer density on the summer range creating too much competition. So killing a few of those older, poor genetic bucks sure would not hurt anything and you could run another 100 people through the system.

But as it was said, the management plan for the unit is only meant to provide a limited opportunity hunt with high success.

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www.sagebasin.com
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Packout those are great points

Do you think that the Book Cliffs could handle 100 Management tags on top of the 550+- tags they already issue? or would they have to cut those tags. If so I would say do it. It seems like it could.
 
I think that a management hunt would be a great idea. Not only would you get out some of the bad genetics. But you would have 100 more people with tags. And that would increase you chances to draw on some of the other units.
 
Dosen't the division take the Success Rate Percentage x the number of tags and that is the number of how many deer they want killed of a unit.

They don't care if its a trophy or not.

So if you issued more management tags then they would have to cut your regular permits.
 
What good is the unit if all you have are big 2s, 3s, 3x4s? Open up the management hunt and lower the competition and keep/help the unit be better. And move more people through the system. Something needs to be done with it or we're gonna lose it again! There are TONS of deer there! Just manage it for a little better buck! Not asking for the henries but a little better would be great!

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I think management tags are kind of a waste. They should have "management years". Every 5-8 years just issue a whole lot of tags to reset the gene pool a bit. This should be done on all the units that are over objective for deer and elk. It would move a lot of people through the system and the units would have plenty of mature bucks again within just a couple of years. Additionally, many of the really good deer and elk are the animals that get smart. They are the ones that are always pursued by bowhunters and photographers, even hikers. So many of those smart fellers would survive a management year, just like they survive the general hunts. If the problem is that we have too many bucks on a certain unit, a good solution would be to kill some of those bucks.
 
EL-MATADOR you could be on to something there. would need a trial run and some fine tuning but it's a good idea and would run some people through the system.
 
I agree a management hunt would be great but those of you have spent time down there. I think can attest that over the last 2-3 yrs the quality has slipped a bunch. they need to look at the overall picture on that unit and maybe adjust a little bit as an overal managment plan for the state. But i am for micro managing units so when a unit is down they can help it.
 
I think they should cut the permits by a third then turn them into a late management hunt for the next few years. Then just eliminate the management tags and keep the quality up. They would still issue more tags than on the other units.
 
They need to do something about the genetic or it will steady go downhill(we can see it already happening) We keep killing the good genetic bucks(Big 4x4 or larger) and let the poor 3x3 and such walk it soon will turn into nothing but those bucks, IF you have a crappy buck doing the breeding you're going to get crappy fawns period. When they shut it down they should of be out there culling the inferior bucks out of the herd.Bring in some different genes wouldn't hurt. so They need to do it now because it not going to get better on it own.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
I spend quite a bit of time in the books and yes its suffering. It needs two things: Tag #'s cut back and it does need some management. Everyone that thinks this is a good place to go out and shoot a buck is right, but a few more years and I'll promise it will right back to what some of us remember. They can fix the problem now or wait till its too late and it takes years to fix. Is there quality bucks out there? Yup....is it going downhill? Yup. Anyone who spends time in the fall during the rut looking at what has made it through has to see a major decline from past years.
 
There have always been "Management Bucks" on the Book Cliffs. I have hunted this area for 30 years. It has some great bucks and it has some poor bucks. It always has.

I saw some great deer this year. And even over the last 30 years with the amount of "Management Bucks" that have already been killed it hasn't help change the gene pool.

The thing that people forget is that the does carry the same genetics. So does a little two point. He may be great some day. If he breeds as a two point which he probably will because no one will shoot him that year he still passes on his genes.

I just think it is very hard to manage a free ranging heard for genetics. especially one the size of the Book Cliffs

I think where they went wrong was the 3 point or better. It was in a time when score didn't mean anything and it forced people to hunt for the more mature bucks when they may have been happy with a lesser buck.

They didn't cap the hunters then and in a five year period it was hard to find a big deer.

Then they opened it up to any buck and practically killed all the bucks. Closed it down for two years, the bucks came back and we still have the same genetics as we always have.

This has been a great topic. I like it when people can talk without trying to make the other look stupid.
 
I agree that a management hunt could be beneficial to the gene pool. We wouldn't see that results for at least 4 years though...
25 archery, 25 muzzleloader, and 50 rifle tags dedicated to management bucks seems like a pretty good idea, and a small sacrifice IF it benefits the herd...
To really get the management bucks out, they could have an any weapon management hunt set in January, on the winter range. Easy pickins for just about anyone. That'd almost guarantee 100% success on nothing but management bucks...


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
IMO this hunt is not designed to be a Henry's type unit. It is about an excellent hunt with the possibility of a 180 class buck. I have spent the last 3 years out there so my opinion is based n the last three years so take it for what it is worth.

I have seen many great bucks out there. They are not in every canyon and sometimes I go several days without seeing one. But I KNOW for a fact if I keep at it, I will turn one up. Killing it is on me or the friend/family I am with.

What more can someone ask for? An opportunity at a great buck and if it does not all pan out, you can whack a great management buck. By nature the tags are already management tags. Most people shoot a management buck and have an incredible fun, family style hunt.

Each year it takes more and more points to draw and people come away for the most part satisfied. It seems to me like the PERFECT hunt.

Take my Dad for example. He drew 2 years ago and killed a great buck with his bow. This year he drew and Expo tag and set his sights on a 180 buck. He stalked him 3 times to within 10 yards, sent 1 missed shot and blew him out the other 2 times. HE hunted that buck the entire hunt. This week he chose to end his hunt by shooting a great 2x4. His hunt was incredible and he has 0 regrets. Best hunt he has had in a long time.

Why change a good thing? The hunt is not broken, the herd is not broken. Leave it alone. IF you want 180-200 inch bucks around every corner apply for the Henry's. If you want an incredible hunt you can share with family and friends, go with the Book Cliffs.
 
If you haven't found a 170+ buck on your hunt in the bookcliffs you didn't hunt hard enough. When is a 170+ buck a dink anyways!

I have been on it and I have been out there for the last several years helping people out. I can say this the bookcliffs is an awesome unit. well worth the points. If I didn't have 10 or 11 archery deer points Id put in for it.

We always find huge bucks in the 190's, putting them down with archery tackle is another story but the bucks are there.

This year is going to be an awesome year for people with tags. great horn growth!!

The last thing we need to do is cut tags!!!!

I would however go for a kids hunt under 18 for a management buck. "increase of a 100 tags" If they draw they can choose their weapon of choice and only hunt with that weapon during the proper season.

The bookcliffs is not managed for trophy class bucks It never was. it has always been managed for 2-3 year old deer!!!!! If you want older bucks put in for another unit.


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There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
I agree with bone piler lets see some pics of all these 190 bucks that you see out there sw. Most people don't even know what a 190 buck is they think that a 170 buck is a 190 so lets see em
 
>Sw post up some pics
>of all those 190 inch
>bucks. id like to
>see them!!

I bet you would! Do you want to know which canyons there in also?


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There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
Ok back in the ring the hunt truly has never been managed for big bucks true, but there are alot less of them now than there have been. I would take an archrey tag anyday over a rifle or muzzy tag down there that being said. The amount of big bucks is slipping. I think givig managment rut tags so they can cull the bucks a bit will make it easier and more attractive but take the tags out of the pool helps gentics and burns some guys through. I belive the dwr has pooched the ball the basin saw a huge winter kill in 2007 and i belive that has alot to do with the decline. Also impact from oil feild opperations hasn't helped them at all. There are plans for a huge new gas feild which i think they should do but if they do that they need to be sencitive to the herd. the dwrs managing policies on bad winters suck. That is why on the south slope when they have a major winter kill its oh well we will cut the season and do nothing about tag# is critcaly hit areas. In colorado when they have a bad winter the cut tags to bring herd levals back. Love the unit still great hunt. Great for familys but quality ahs been slipping and buck #'s have been slipping. so lets do something to help.
 
It would be fun to see them manage the Books for a little more quality. It has the potential to grow some monsters. I don't think it should be the Henries but get it back to where it was when they opened it back up. So lets cut tags and have a management hunt.
 
What I'd really like to see is a rifle hunt in sept. on the wasatch range. Yup about 10,000 tags in sept. for opportunity of killing a velvet buck with a rifle. Wadda ya think sw? I know about as much about that unit as you do the book cliffs :)
 
dont you guys think the bookcliffs is basically already a managment tag. go back and look at the average buck broadside shots family has taken they are not all 4x4's or 5x5's it is split between 4x4 and 3x4. His family has a life time of experience on that mountain. They also find truck loads of sheds every year and sell them for wheelers! lol

so I almost think taking tags from one point group and distributing them to another group is a waste of time imho especially when the does carry half the genetics. What are you going to do with the does? This is not a fenced unit where you can cull the crap doe that puts out the 2x4's.

Sure cutting tags will increase the big bucks but the bookcliffs is not a trophy unit. never was! I think the book cliffs is about right with tags right now. I really don't want to see another tag increase.

The bookcliffs is already a 10 point draw rifle unit. So you guys want to make it a 15+ year point draw unit so you can find a 4x4 "unbelievable." Because that is what will happen when you increase the average age of the bucks you harvest from 2-3 year average age to 3-4 year average age.

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There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
Seeing some of the comments about the Book Cliffs makes me wonder how much time people are actually spending out there. First, I dont believe that any party is killing 190 inch bucks out there very year regardless of how hard you are hunting. For all the time I have spent out there since 02, I have yet to see one over 190. Sounds like a classic case of over estimating rack size or some other means of BS.

Second, I dont see the decline that people are talking about. The number and quality of deer, in my observation, has not changed since 02. If anything, I have seen better deer since then. By no means did I conduct a scientific count or study, but I saw more deer in the 150's in '08 than I did in '02. And for the record, I would say that during all of the hunts I have been involved with there, 60% was from the truck, the other 40 was on foot.

Id love to see them reduce the number of tags, but only because I have a grand total of 1 point and dont plan on drawing for a long time anyways. Otherwise, its a fun hunt. Its a great place for a family hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-16-10 AT 06:06PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-16-10 AT 06:05?PM (MST)

After they closed the unit for 3 years there were some really great deer. I still think there are some great deer out there, but they are hard to find.

The way the state manages deer in the regular LE units is totally based on buck to doe ratios. In the statewide deer management plan it says that they will managed for 25-35 bucks per 100 does post season. There is only an age component for bucks on the Premium LE deer units (Pauns and Henrys). Go for a drive in mid-November in the Book Cliffs and keep track of what you see. You will most likely see a buck to doe ratio that is in the upper end of or that exceeds the 25-35 per 100 does target (by the way, fawns don't count as bucks or does in the calculation of that ratio).

While age doesn't factor into the management, it is interesting. The average age of harvested bucks for the last few years has been 4.0 years. Most hunters kill a 3.5 or 4.5 year old buck out there. Not many younger bucks, not many older bucks either.

I think one of the reasons there isn't a huge top end is because the deer in the Books are really vulnerable to harvest. During the archery and muzz hunts the deer are really concentrated on the summer range. During the rifle hunt they migrate to the winter range and act as dumb as a sack of rocks. Those bucks are really vulnerable to hunters, and guys are pretty good at taking the cream off the top every year. There just aren't that many good places for a big buck to stay hidden and get much age on him. I think most of bucks with the best potential are shot as a 20-22" 4x4 as a 2 year old, or a 24-26" 4x4 as a 3 year old. The dates for the rifle hunt this fall will be hard on top end bucks.

While there isn't a huge top end, I still think the Book Cliffs makes up a very important piece of the mule deer hunting puzzle in UT. The Book Cliffs moves more deer hunters through the point system in a single year than all the other LE hunts in the state combined. The Book Cliffs also provides a great opportunity for a family hunt, a woman, a senior, the disabled, etc. And, there are some truly big bucks taken every year on the unit by a few individuals that work hard, get lucky, or both. Sure it would be great to see what the Books could produce if they were managed like the Henry Mtns, but in my opinion it would be a waste of the resource too.

INSTEAD OF MANAGING THE BOOKS LIKE THE HENRYS, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE US MANAGE A FEW MORE GENERAL SEASON UNITS LIKE THE BOOKS!
 
Daxter,

in many surveys the DWR has completed, seems to me like about 35% of the deer hunters would rather hunt every 3-4 years and have a book cliffs type hunt - or better, and 65% of deer hunters would prefer the hunt most every year.

so, your idea is right on, why does the DWR not give the hunters what they want, make 35% of the deer population in deer hunt units like the Books, and leave 65% 5 region draw, post season BDR 15-20 ?

Great idea DAX,
 
I don't think management hunts will ever be the answer on public ground. Unless you have a guide that is able to take every hunter out and point out the deer that need to be taken out of the heard it won't work. What good is a management hunt when 95% of the hunters can't pick out the deer that needs to be taken out of the gene pool?

I also think that most of the hunters that hunt the Books are your so called "average hunter". These hunters see a deer that has a decent rack and they are shooting it. They aren't counting points or adding up the score.
 
Do you guys realise what your saying?

the bookcliffs has what 500 total tags a year and look at the size or area it covers.. You are saying lets make the rest of the general season areas just like the bookcliffs. Well the rest of the general areas have what a 100,000 tags total.

After you are done making the rest of the state like the bookcliffs you will only have about 5,000 tags. The general season rifle hunt already has a 3 year wait. This isn't rocket science folks. Get off your butt and go find your buck. There is no reason you need to have a window hunt like the bookcliffs and have a 10 year wait for a tag! Besides you already think the bookcliffs sucks and want more tags cut.

Unbelievable!!!

you guys are basically saying you only want to get laid once in your life but man the day you will get laid its going to be awesome and you are going to get a supermodel. Then when you finally do get the lay license you weren't good enough and didn't have the experience to snag a supermodel so you still ended up with your wad on the stomach of a Rosie Odonnell!

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There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL
 
sw dax didn't say the whole state he said a fe more units maybe 2-3 and i think most of us would agree that would be a good thing. I personly think they should make a unit on the southslope where the buck to doe ratio is like what maybe 5 lol. But in all honesty they need to shrink the deer units so that they can manage specific herds based on that herds needs. the deer herd in stawberry is a hell of alot diffrent than the deer herd. on th enorth slope isnt it? Im not saying make the whole state like the books but if a area is decimated like the basin herds where a few years ago wouldn't it be nice to cut the tags and let the herd come back to objective? But wait that would mean we would have to give a little oh well.
 
IF you live in the Basin you can see what has happened to the deer herds. IF you aren't out here.....you can assume all you want. Each of us is entitled to an opinion. My opinion is the deer herd in the Basin is in the toilet and needs some serious work. Are there bucks out there? YEA of course there are....is it what it was even say 5 yrs ago? He!! no.
 
I agree, there has to be opportunity to hunt on a regular basis. I would never advocate managing the whole state as LE units.

However, lots of our LE deer units are relatively small with relatively small deer populations. Prior to the closure there were about 3,500 people that hunted the Book Cliffs every year. Now there are about 600. We lost hunting opportunity for about 3,000 people. I think if we could find 2-3 more units that could be managed similar to the Book Cliffs it could be really neat. We would have to give up 5,000 to 10,000 tags, about a 10% loss of opportunity for general season deer hunters. But, we would gain 1,500 new LE deer tags. I would also advocate merging the general season and LE point systems like the currently do in NV, CO, etc. When a hunter puts in each year he has to choose if he wants to put in for a unit he is likely to draw or a unit with higher quality. Making people choose would will make the odds better for everyone. Adding a few more LE units and merging the point systems would really move people through the system and maybe you wouldn't have to wait 10 years to draw a LE deer tag.

Just some of my personal ideas and philosophies. It is fun bouncing ideas around with you guys here on MM.
 
>IF you live in the Basin
>you can see what has
>happened to the deer herds.
>IF you aren't out here.....you
>can assume all you want.
>Each of us is entitled
>to an opinion. My opinion
>is the deer herd in
>the Basin is in the
>toilet and needs some serious
>work. Are there bucks out
>there? YEA of course there
>are....is it what it was
>even say 5 yrs ago?
>He!! no.


I thought this post was about the decline of the bookcliffs and cutting the tags in the bookcliffs not about the decline of the basin. I will have to disagree with you on your wants to cut the tags on the bookcliffs. I will also disagree the quality is in the toilet in the bookcliffs. I think the quality is just where it needs to be. But that is just me!

I will however agree with you 100% that the basin sucks and it is the suckiest suck that has ever sucked and I would never ever hunt it for deer! Now elk is another story!

The basin has toooo many rifle tags on it. If you cut the rifle tags in half and gave them to archers or force people to choose a short range weapon the quality will increase. But cutting tags across the board to me is like cutting your own balls off. To me we are all hunters not archery hunter vs rifle hunter. If I want to hunt deer in an area and I cant use a long range weapon but I still have the opertunity to hunt with a lesser weapon i'll stoop to a lesser weapon. ill adapt! I'm a hunter and a weapon of choice is not the issue. Lets not all go out and cut our balls off so to speak by cutting all the tags. Give yourself an out. I guarantee you the quality will come around if this is given a chance! Ive seen it with my own eyes

Catman I respect you and Dax's opinion I respect you guys as a hunter. I would hunt with any one of you. Same with the rest that have responded with this post. But I have to say this when people start talking tag cuts it freaks me out. I have never drawn a LE deer or elk tag in any state in my life. No one in my family has ever drawn a tag either. So I am extremely skeptical and absolutely think fishy crap is going on behind back doors when it comes to the le drawings. Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want but that is how I feel.

Now if I was in Silentstalkers position and drawing every tag under the sun multiple times a year and having his family draw tags in the same way Id say lets cut the suckers in half and make every thing a Le unit. If every time I turned around SFW was handing me a tag or a family member a tag Id get down and worship them also. That is simply not the case.

NO I'm stuck with 10 archery deer points now. I started off by putting in for rifle areas like the books, vernon, oak creak unit, I even played with a few cwmu's and next thing I know I got 10 points. If I hadnt picked a lesser weapon 10 years ago and killed the bucks I have id be pretty discouraged right now. If I hadn't seen what archery only quality looks like id be pretty discouraged right now.

So I guess we all have a story that makes us who we are and influences the way we think about how management in Utah should go. Just wish there was common ground.

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There are no big bucks in Utah! lol
Id actually believe that if I didn't keep finding them across this state. All I want is a chance
 
Great Post Scott.

All I can say is look at the Wasatch Front. Tons of hunters, hunted literally everyday of the extended season from mid August to Mid December. No winter range. a lot of car vs. animal wrecks, mtn lions, bears. Henry mtns type quality and no one has to sit out by cutting tags. Bottom line is huge revenue off of tags, huge opportunity to hunt, and minimal harvest of incredible bucks!

To improve the deer herds in Utah we must change our way of thinking. As I recall Scott you were a hard core rifle hunter. You decided to pick up a bow one day so you could hunt the best unit in the state every year! Now look at the bucks you have killed or chased.

The whole state does not need to be managed this way but why not a few more? It works!
 
For every guy like Scott, who picks up a bow and does it right, there are 5 like the idiot I just talked to today who hit 4 elk on his Wasatch elk hunt. Oh yeah, and he finally found the 5th one he hit. Archery only is great for guys who actually are archers and not night-before-the-hunt-tune-up-my-bow hunters. Anyone remember the winter in the early 2000s when we about lost the Front when Yahoos were shooting deer and elk in 3 feet of snow while they stood in backyards? Yeah, lets push non-archers into archery.

And Don has showed his real nature, telling us the DWR is selling us a bill of goods because we "only" have 30% success rates. Nice post there. I always thought the DWR sold hunting permits, not ranch hunts with 100% kill rates.
 

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