2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,997
Thank you Grizz. Your headed in the right direction regarding your concern for deer, IMO. Thank you for your passion.
I will have to differ with you regarding Don Peay and SFW however. This will be, of course, an unabashed promotion of Don and SFW but that will come as no surprise to most. It might help explain why I drink his Kool Aid and wish you could too, if you can see you way clear, for the benefit of hunting in general and deer hunting specifically.
Here goes again:
1. Don Peay crushed my efforts in 1993 to help mule deer, I'd never heard of Don and he came out of no-where as far as I was concerned. He was a young hunter 18 years ago and I was a 46 year old and had been deeply involved working on hunting and deer issues for 14 years. I knew the State players and I knew the system. I was one of two people that saved Utah's muzzleloader hunting season in 1978 when the DWR wanted to end it. In 1985 Kay Kimball and I were the primary catalyst for the 5 years of antler restriction regulations that were implement on the Pahvant, Fish Lake and the Monroe units. (If that sounds arrogant or self promoting I'm sorry, someone caused those things to happen and it was me and two or three other hunters. A review of Utah deer hunting history will verify what I'm saying.)
Why, other than to boost, would I share this old and tired history again. I'm saying it again because I want sportsmen to know how pissed off I was at Don Peay and SFW in 1993 when they smashed what I still believe was a viable solution to maintain Utah mule deer. If you think people are frustrated with Don now????. you have not idea.........
2. So what happened? Why, after being so pissed off at him, am I now so committed to Don and SFW when others have turned away from him? Now when I say others have turned against him I want to make it absolutely clear, while a few have turned away, there are still many thousands of sportsmen that support Don and SFW and the efforts they are engage in. For every sportsman that has left the fold, others have seen the vision, as I have and join with him. In fact, more than join, but but have joined and then work hard and invest heavily in what SFW is doing and that they are trying to do.
As I state previously, when I have issues, I don't just ##### about it, I go and get on the end of peoples noses, face to face, eye to eye and we get after it. Arrogant as it may be or it may sound, I fear no human, the Governor, the Director, my Boss, your Boss, the tough guys, the smart guys, nobody. I damn sure don't fear Don Peay. For one reason, I never fear being wrong or embarrassed or ashamed, I'm totally comfortable in my hide. I know I'm not perfect and I know I'm no genius (but I know some that are) so you can't make me feel stupid, I already know how stupid I am. So???.Don and I got together and we had our head bashing. Was it fun, hell no. Was it easy, hell no. Did we get it right in a single session, hell no. Was it worth it, oh yea.
It took many years but as we exchanged ideas and realities I learned these things:
a) Don Peay cares deeply about public hunting and the future of public hunting opportunity.
b) He cares deeply for wildlife and conservation, more than any person I know personally. (I can't say there are others more or equally committed to conservation but I don't know them personally. I know Don.)
c) He is committed, he is tough, he is a risk taker, he is smart, he is wise, he sees complex issues with depth and width, he can discern peoples personalities, he studies, he listens (even through you think he's not) and most importantly as far as I'm concerned he is capable of changing his mind.
He is a knife fighter not a long distance shooter.
d) He cares about his family more than he cares about conservation.
e) He is busy. He will not tolerated chit chat and he damn sure isn't interested in spending his limited time listening to passive discussions, on any subject, from people who are not his intimate friends and family. He?s not looking for personal friends but he is looking for like minded conservationists, willing to help with numerous different hunting and fishing lifestyle issue.
f) He is loud, assertive, aggressive, and satisfied that he is doing all he can, with what ever issue he is working on, what's more he is not the least bit bashful about promoting the cause or the rolls that everyone needs to play. He knows what his roll is.
g) I don't know his personal financial status, I'm like most of you, I'd guess he does alright but I know he came from a humble back ground and if he has means it is because he has work hard for it. But that isn't an issue for me, what is an issue is he knew, very early on, that his limited personal resources, nor the personal resources of most of the rest of us, couldn't buy diddily-squat, in the way of conservation and hunting preservation.
h) He understood that there were sources for very large amounts of money and he knew that it takes very, very large amounts of money, to rehab the entire national forest and blm systems in the west. He knew it takes money to lobby (yes lobby, that dirty word and that dirty task that every does when they have to work with government) powerful congressmen and women that control the public lands.
i) He knows how to take a few hundred thousand dollars from a few wealthy hunters and a few thousand $10 donations from guys like you and I and parley them into millions for conservation that in-turn grows more deer and elk and moose etc. for guy like me and you to hunt.
j) He knows he has accomplished a lot. Hell, ever the people that dislike him the most, that actually know him, will get up and say he has accomplished a lot. Most, not all, will thank him and recognize the effort he is putting into wolf management. So, it's no secret that he's had a good deal of success from his efforts.
k) He knows he has failed when it come to mule deer and he know that is what he said he would fix and we all hold him most accountable for. He knows we are disappointed and pissed that he hasn't delivered that primary mission.
l) Besides being successful with many conservation projects and failing at a major one (mule deer) what has he done? He has built a network of contacts that are like minded people. Some have huge assets, some are dirt poor, they all have a place in the network. He has earned the trust of powerful individuals in industry and in politics. He as leveraged large amounts of money which has been given to conservation efforts as well as large amounts of money and in-kind donates to what he believes are heros to the nation and to conservation. Most of whom he doesn't know personally nor have any on going contract with. He has open doors and created new visions for the doers of the country that have and will continue to benefit wildlife and the outdoor lifestyle for generations. He has been audited and re-audited by those that do that sort of thing and continues to have the support of those that have done the audits. He continues to have the support of those that he receives the largest amounts of dollars from. We forget, I think, that these large donations that are given by those that have these kinds of resource could be used to hire guides and hunt private lands that far superior animals than the public lands. Case in point, the Alton mule deer CWMU charges over $20,000.00 for a chance to hunt their property, yet some folks pay $50,000 to hunt the same deer on public land later in the season. Why would they do that? They do it, in part, because Don Peay and others have convinced then should give their money to conservation efforts and not the CWMU operator. (Not to pick a fight with landowners but how much of the money the CWMU operates generate get donated to public lands conservation? Some but not much.) If some of that $50,000 donation goes to the individuals that are helping generate it, I'm personally okay with that, I don't work for free, why should we expect Don Peay or the other paid employees of SFW do generate these large donation for free. The fact that the animals are public property make no difference to me. Hell, we let timber companies come in a cut timber and sell it to pay their employees and their stockholders, what's the difference. Especially, if that same timber company turns around an spends some of it earnings to restore the forest so it can regenerate timber for another generation.
m) Don may have become better off monetarily as a result of his efforts and his network of people. Why is that wrong? Now, if he stops winning battles and he stops helping wildlife and helping conservation efforts, how long do you think the large and small donors and supporters will continue to hire him to do their work.
n) Because of his 18 years of smart, hard work, he is and has been for the last 10 to 15 years, in a position to make a profound difference on wildlife issues. Getting some one individual into such a powerful position takes time, a lot of time, it takes money, and it takes perseverance. It doesn't just happen over night and it doesn't just happen haphazardly. It takes planning and a huge effort. Don Peay is at that place right now. He?s been there a while but the longer you're there the stronger and more effective you can be.
o) This is exactly what Don said he was going to do in 1993, this was the goal WE all wanted. WE want influence. WE wanted power, power to block the anti hunters and power to build and preserve hunting and fishing lifestyle. That is what he said he would do and that is what he has done. NOW THAT WE GOT WHAT WE WANTED IN A PERSON AND AN ORGANIZATION, we want to start over? THAT JUST SEEMS SO STAGGERINGLY IRRATIONAL TO ME.
Now them, if Don and SFW are in the position to move politicians, parley conservation donations into millions, fight and win against the wolf movement, WHY IN THE WORLD DO WE WANT TO REPLACE THEM WITH SOMEONE ELSE, WHO MAY ARE MAY NOT SUCCEED IN EVEN DOING AS MUCH AS SFW HAS DONE? I don't have another 20 years to try someone else.
The Don Peay type of egos do not grow on trees. These five hundred pound gorillas are very few and very far between, and I can damn sure tell you, as proud as I am of myself and arrogant as I am, I'm not every in the same ball park as Don Peay.
Listen???Don Peay is not a personal friend, any more than Orrin Hatch or Harry (Dirty Harry) Reid are and I've meet them both. After all the times we have talked, all the times we've been in the same room together, all the head smashing and group hugging we've done, we've never had a lunch together. Never been invited to his home, he's never been to mine. Never met his wife, would know his children if they walked in the room. He?s doesn't send me a Christmas card, I'd don't send him one. Sure, if I like something he's done, I'll fire off an e-mail and thank him or congratulate him on something he's fought for and won. But I'm just as sure to send him a rant, chewing his ass if I disagree with what he's doing on not doing. I've done a lot of both.
There is no prefect human. These five hundred pound gorillas stink some times. They aren't always the kinds of people we enjoy on a social level. These kinds of people are not always what some of us classify as ?likeable?. Some times they are but often they aren't. But these are the ?kinds? or ?types? of people we need to get things done. Do they bust china and step on our toes, offend our tender feelings, they certainly do. But we need them, we need their fight, we need their ambition, we need their thickness and their toughness. Guys?????the world is a mean, survival of the fittest, place. There are people the want to take away what we desperately want to keep. We need the Don Peays of the world to fight for us. There aren't guys like you and I. They are rare and they don't come skipping down the trail every five minutes.
Don most likely won't be willing to do what he's doing for a lot longer, he's getting on in years too and I can assure you, others are tugging at his skills to do other things as we speak. That is an absolute fact. I've seen this kind of thing before. Individuals make a difference in organization and in systems. When individuals change, systems changes. When Don hangs it up, for what ever reason, things will not be the same for hunting and fishing in Utah. I know, some of you can't wait but I can assure you, while you might not be willing to credit him with anything, his influence will be missed and missed greatly.
I have learned to respect him and what he believes and what he does. It didn't come quickly and it didn't come easy and it wasn?t because I wasn?t sufficiently pissed off at him for many, many years. But I am now all in, full support. I trust him. I believe in his causes. I have absolutely no question he wants to preserve hunting and fishing for the ?average joe? more than he cares about money. He know?s a few of the folks with money are willing to help and he is going to help them help, in spite of the folks working so hard against him personally.
So, Grizz, thank you, I know you care, I have no doubt about it but we need to ride this horse right now. We need this deer herd fixed, right now. We?ve lost a million deer in Utah in the last 30 years. We can not stand to lose another fawn if it can be helped. Don is going to try AGAIN, to help get deer back on their feet. If he can't do it now, with the power and influence he has earned through the last 18 years, then it isn't going to happen and mule deer will live or die by the gift of God and nothing else. There isn't anyone in Government who can or will do anything more than has been done for the last 40 years to help mule deer.
I believe this completely, if Don Peay fails again, mule deer hunting, as we know it today will quickly struggle to an end in Utah. The trend is as clear as a glass of Glenwood tape water.
DC
I will have to differ with you regarding Don Peay and SFW however. This will be, of course, an unabashed promotion of Don and SFW but that will come as no surprise to most. It might help explain why I drink his Kool Aid and wish you could too, if you can see you way clear, for the benefit of hunting in general and deer hunting specifically.
Here goes again:
1. Don Peay crushed my efforts in 1993 to help mule deer, I'd never heard of Don and he came out of no-where as far as I was concerned. He was a young hunter 18 years ago and I was a 46 year old and had been deeply involved working on hunting and deer issues for 14 years. I knew the State players and I knew the system. I was one of two people that saved Utah's muzzleloader hunting season in 1978 when the DWR wanted to end it. In 1985 Kay Kimball and I were the primary catalyst for the 5 years of antler restriction regulations that were implement on the Pahvant, Fish Lake and the Monroe units. (If that sounds arrogant or self promoting I'm sorry, someone caused those things to happen and it was me and two or three other hunters. A review of Utah deer hunting history will verify what I'm saying.)
Why, other than to boost, would I share this old and tired history again. I'm saying it again because I want sportsmen to know how pissed off I was at Don Peay and SFW in 1993 when they smashed what I still believe was a viable solution to maintain Utah mule deer. If you think people are frustrated with Don now????. you have not idea.........
2. So what happened? Why, after being so pissed off at him, am I now so committed to Don and SFW when others have turned away from him? Now when I say others have turned against him I want to make it absolutely clear, while a few have turned away, there are still many thousands of sportsmen that support Don and SFW and the efforts they are engage in. For every sportsman that has left the fold, others have seen the vision, as I have and join with him. In fact, more than join, but but have joined and then work hard and invest heavily in what SFW is doing and that they are trying to do.
As I state previously, when I have issues, I don't just ##### about it, I go and get on the end of peoples noses, face to face, eye to eye and we get after it. Arrogant as it may be or it may sound, I fear no human, the Governor, the Director, my Boss, your Boss, the tough guys, the smart guys, nobody. I damn sure don't fear Don Peay. For one reason, I never fear being wrong or embarrassed or ashamed, I'm totally comfortable in my hide. I know I'm not perfect and I know I'm no genius (but I know some that are) so you can't make me feel stupid, I already know how stupid I am. So???.Don and I got together and we had our head bashing. Was it fun, hell no. Was it easy, hell no. Did we get it right in a single session, hell no. Was it worth it, oh yea.
It took many years but as we exchanged ideas and realities I learned these things:
a) Don Peay cares deeply about public hunting and the future of public hunting opportunity.
b) He cares deeply for wildlife and conservation, more than any person I know personally. (I can't say there are others more or equally committed to conservation but I don't know them personally. I know Don.)
c) He is committed, he is tough, he is a risk taker, he is smart, he is wise, he sees complex issues with depth and width, he can discern peoples personalities, he studies, he listens (even through you think he's not) and most importantly as far as I'm concerned he is capable of changing his mind.
He is a knife fighter not a long distance shooter.
d) He cares about his family more than he cares about conservation.
e) He is busy. He will not tolerated chit chat and he damn sure isn't interested in spending his limited time listening to passive discussions, on any subject, from people who are not his intimate friends and family. He?s not looking for personal friends but he is looking for like minded conservationists, willing to help with numerous different hunting and fishing lifestyle issue.
f) He is loud, assertive, aggressive, and satisfied that he is doing all he can, with what ever issue he is working on, what's more he is not the least bit bashful about promoting the cause or the rolls that everyone needs to play. He knows what his roll is.
g) I don't know his personal financial status, I'm like most of you, I'd guess he does alright but I know he came from a humble back ground and if he has means it is because he has work hard for it. But that isn't an issue for me, what is an issue is he knew, very early on, that his limited personal resources, nor the personal resources of most of the rest of us, couldn't buy diddily-squat, in the way of conservation and hunting preservation.
h) He understood that there were sources for very large amounts of money and he knew that it takes very, very large amounts of money, to rehab the entire national forest and blm systems in the west. He knew it takes money to lobby (yes lobby, that dirty word and that dirty task that every does when they have to work with government) powerful congressmen and women that control the public lands.
i) He knows how to take a few hundred thousand dollars from a few wealthy hunters and a few thousand $10 donations from guys like you and I and parley them into millions for conservation that in-turn grows more deer and elk and moose etc. for guy like me and you to hunt.
j) He knows he has accomplished a lot. Hell, ever the people that dislike him the most, that actually know him, will get up and say he has accomplished a lot. Most, not all, will thank him and recognize the effort he is putting into wolf management. So, it's no secret that he's had a good deal of success from his efforts.
k) He knows he has failed when it come to mule deer and he know that is what he said he would fix and we all hold him most accountable for. He knows we are disappointed and pissed that he hasn't delivered that primary mission.
l) Besides being successful with many conservation projects and failing at a major one (mule deer) what has he done? He has built a network of contacts that are like minded people. Some have huge assets, some are dirt poor, they all have a place in the network. He has earned the trust of powerful individuals in industry and in politics. He as leveraged large amounts of money which has been given to conservation efforts as well as large amounts of money and in-kind donates to what he believes are heros to the nation and to conservation. Most of whom he doesn't know personally nor have any on going contract with. He has open doors and created new visions for the doers of the country that have and will continue to benefit wildlife and the outdoor lifestyle for generations. He has been audited and re-audited by those that do that sort of thing and continues to have the support of those that have done the audits. He continues to have the support of those that he receives the largest amounts of dollars from. We forget, I think, that these large donations that are given by those that have these kinds of resource could be used to hire guides and hunt private lands that far superior animals than the public lands. Case in point, the Alton mule deer CWMU charges over $20,000.00 for a chance to hunt their property, yet some folks pay $50,000 to hunt the same deer on public land later in the season. Why would they do that? They do it, in part, because Don Peay and others have convinced then should give their money to conservation efforts and not the CWMU operator. (Not to pick a fight with landowners but how much of the money the CWMU operates generate get donated to public lands conservation? Some but not much.) If some of that $50,000 donation goes to the individuals that are helping generate it, I'm personally okay with that, I don't work for free, why should we expect Don Peay or the other paid employees of SFW do generate these large donation for free. The fact that the animals are public property make no difference to me. Hell, we let timber companies come in a cut timber and sell it to pay their employees and their stockholders, what's the difference. Especially, if that same timber company turns around an spends some of it earnings to restore the forest so it can regenerate timber for another generation.
m) Don may have become better off monetarily as a result of his efforts and his network of people. Why is that wrong? Now, if he stops winning battles and he stops helping wildlife and helping conservation efforts, how long do you think the large and small donors and supporters will continue to hire him to do their work.
n) Because of his 18 years of smart, hard work, he is and has been for the last 10 to 15 years, in a position to make a profound difference on wildlife issues. Getting some one individual into such a powerful position takes time, a lot of time, it takes money, and it takes perseverance. It doesn't just happen over night and it doesn't just happen haphazardly. It takes planning and a huge effort. Don Peay is at that place right now. He?s been there a while but the longer you're there the stronger and more effective you can be.
o) This is exactly what Don said he was going to do in 1993, this was the goal WE all wanted. WE want influence. WE wanted power, power to block the anti hunters and power to build and preserve hunting and fishing lifestyle. That is what he said he would do and that is what he has done. NOW THAT WE GOT WHAT WE WANTED IN A PERSON AND AN ORGANIZATION, we want to start over? THAT JUST SEEMS SO STAGGERINGLY IRRATIONAL TO ME.
Now them, if Don and SFW are in the position to move politicians, parley conservation donations into millions, fight and win against the wolf movement, WHY IN THE WORLD DO WE WANT TO REPLACE THEM WITH SOMEONE ELSE, WHO MAY ARE MAY NOT SUCCEED IN EVEN DOING AS MUCH AS SFW HAS DONE? I don't have another 20 years to try someone else.
The Don Peay type of egos do not grow on trees. These five hundred pound gorillas are very few and very far between, and I can damn sure tell you, as proud as I am of myself and arrogant as I am, I'm not every in the same ball park as Don Peay.
Listen???Don Peay is not a personal friend, any more than Orrin Hatch or Harry (Dirty Harry) Reid are and I've meet them both. After all the times we have talked, all the times we've been in the same room together, all the head smashing and group hugging we've done, we've never had a lunch together. Never been invited to his home, he's never been to mine. Never met his wife, would know his children if they walked in the room. He?s doesn't send me a Christmas card, I'd don't send him one. Sure, if I like something he's done, I'll fire off an e-mail and thank him or congratulate him on something he's fought for and won. But I'm just as sure to send him a rant, chewing his ass if I disagree with what he's doing on not doing. I've done a lot of both.
There is no prefect human. These five hundred pound gorillas stink some times. They aren't always the kinds of people we enjoy on a social level. These kinds of people are not always what some of us classify as ?likeable?. Some times they are but often they aren't. But these are the ?kinds? or ?types? of people we need to get things done. Do they bust china and step on our toes, offend our tender feelings, they certainly do. But we need them, we need their fight, we need their ambition, we need their thickness and their toughness. Guys?????the world is a mean, survival of the fittest, place. There are people the want to take away what we desperately want to keep. We need the Don Peays of the world to fight for us. There aren't guys like you and I. They are rare and they don't come skipping down the trail every five minutes.
Don most likely won't be willing to do what he's doing for a lot longer, he's getting on in years too and I can assure you, others are tugging at his skills to do other things as we speak. That is an absolute fact. I've seen this kind of thing before. Individuals make a difference in organization and in systems. When individuals change, systems changes. When Don hangs it up, for what ever reason, things will not be the same for hunting and fishing in Utah. I know, some of you can't wait but I can assure you, while you might not be willing to credit him with anything, his influence will be missed and missed greatly.
I have learned to respect him and what he believes and what he does. It didn't come quickly and it didn't come easy and it wasn?t because I wasn?t sufficiently pissed off at him for many, many years. But I am now all in, full support. I trust him. I believe in his causes. I have absolutely no question he wants to preserve hunting and fishing for the ?average joe? more than he cares about money. He know?s a few of the folks with money are willing to help and he is going to help them help, in spite of the folks working so hard against him personally.
So, Grizz, thank you, I know you care, I have no doubt about it but we need to ride this horse right now. We need this deer herd fixed, right now. We?ve lost a million deer in Utah in the last 30 years. We can not stand to lose another fawn if it can be helped. Don is going to try AGAIN, to help get deer back on their feet. If he can't do it now, with the power and influence he has earned through the last 18 years, then it isn't going to happen and mule deer will live or die by the gift of God and nothing else. There isn't anyone in Government who can or will do anything more than has been done for the last 40 years to help mule deer.
I believe this completely, if Don Peay fails again, mule deer hunting, as we know it today will quickly struggle to an end in Utah. The trend is as clear as a glass of Glenwood tape water.
DC
