Mule deer population 2013

Ill tell you that it is no where near that number. But someone from the DNR will probably say we are close.
My bet is Utah has 150,000 and that is pushing it.
 
I Don't know what the Total Numbers would be?

Sure the Hell not 350,000!

I can tell you first hand the NE Region Deer Herd is in Deep Doo-Doo!












I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
Bess, I used to hunt Tabiona for years back in the day. Not sure how it is now but it was good.

See any bucks on your hunt?
 
Ya I seen Bucks!

Only 2 Shooters during the Rifle Hunt & a Friend took one of them!

Approx another 100+ Miles on My Danners too!:D

I didn't Hunt Tabby but did see a Pic of a Decent 5X5 Buck a Guy got off of Tabby this year!

What Hurt this year was Elk Hunters Galore & a lot of Game was pushed off on the REZ or in to the Thickest Viet-Nam BS you've ever seen!

I'd seen Pumpkin Patches before but this years Elk Hunt was a Banner Year for them,JUDAS!:D












I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
With the small units, hopefully they can help increase the herd as needed in each unit. I would guess they are not even half way to 350,000. Right now the quantity is nowhere near what it should be.
 
If I remember right the DWR folks estimate the total population at around 230,000 or so. I question the numbers because the deer population estimate "model" is really only a best guess thing. I firmly believe that the folks that have known what high deer populations look like really have a better sense of whether or not a particular area holds good deer numbers as compared to the past. After serving on the CRAC for several years now, I am very convinced that predator population decrease is THE key to increase in deer population in the majority of the state. In areas that there has been extensive habitat work and improvement and that has been in place for 10 years or so-- the deer populations have still not increased. If we don't find a way to substantionally reduce predators, we will not see much increase in deer numbers. Currently, fawn recruitment from year to year is, in some areas, not even keeping pace with mortality rates for all causes. We certainly cannot control weather and its effect on survival rates. About the only things we can do is decrease hunter numbers (which will decrease buck harvest, not doe & fawn survival) and aggressively lower predator numbers. When the DWR closed the Henry Mts because of extremely low deer numbers, they immediately embarked on a major predator removal campaign. They used aircraft to locate predators and shot and killed every predator they could find for several years. It seems that once deer populations get to a level that it can once again out produce predator losses it doesn't require the same predator removal intensity. I am of the opinion that most, if not all of our deer populations in every unit are so depressed they just can't get over the hump and get into the population curve that the predators aren't taking out the increase in animals that have been added to the population every spring. In the 50's-60's when deer populations were high, the use of 1080 poison by trappers, ranchers etc knocked the heck out of predator populations, since its ban predator numbers have increased and deer numbers have decreased. Ever wonder why deer numbers in cities along the Wasatch Front are high and are now a "problem"? Yep you are right-- few or no predators are killing deer there. Do you wonder sometimes why you sometimes see more deer along the road than back in the bush? probably because predators tend to avoid human activity areas. I have heard but have not yet verified that there is a poison that kills only the primary predator and goes inert (neutral)and therefore would eliminate killing a secondary scavenger animal, such as a hawk, eagle etc. I see this as the best hope we have of once again allowing our mule deer populations to increase. In my opinion there is ample winter habitat for deer in most areas of the state for increased populations growth, the key is decreasing predator numbers
 
Good post Nebo, I feel the same way. My friend who moved here from Pennsylvania just bought some property the other day and was excited about seeing some critters on his property. He turned up nothing on the game camara but a big ol cougar.
 
Wish we could get the western states on board with this, and somehow incentivize the hunting of mule deer predators. Low levels of predators are all we need in this day and age. Forget you, save a wolf foundations!!! There's a reason there are no more dinosaur. Predators like the wolf are the next dinosaur of the lower 48. They are not needed nor helpful!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Spot on Nebo, The new age Biologist, was told at school that the habitat was the problem . Look at the number counts, when the predater control quit, the herd numbers went down. It's not rocket science, coyotes, bears, and lions are the problem. We have ended up in the west with deer herds that are just maintaining. I liked it alot better when are glass was running over!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-13 AT 09:52PM (MST)[p]I remember reading a story about a piece of ground that had a colony of Black footed ferrets. As these were protected by law there was a huge predator control program established around this colony. Now this has been years ago I read this . so if anyone remembers the facts please step in. As I remember a fence was made around this area for miles, and No predators were allowed in. The area was mostly sage flats. It wasnt long before they had to kull out the Mule Deer for fear they would trample the Ferrets. The habitat was only marginal for Deer but with no Predation the numbers of Deer skyrocketed. I write all this I guess to say I agree with those who call for a need to control Predators. Nebo, I live on the east side of the nebo unit, Near Indianola, And I can tell you there is allot more than Coyote taking the big game. Where there were great numbers of Deer and Elk 10 years ago there are very few from what I'v seen. This year was not good at all. I didnt hunt Deer but I go weekly into the area's and its sad..


Edit, As a note to your use of poison to control predator, Find an aging bioligist that remembers how we got rid of all the Beavers that were causing trouble in vast area's. They gave a few males a form of siphalis that stopped the females reprodution.. no beavers after 4-5 years
 
I have seen trail camera pictures of Wolfs on or about Panarma woods, Have property up there and its across 89 above Indianola. Tell me there are no wolfs in Utah Ill tell you your a lier. These wolfs are problem end of story.
 
Great Info Nebo:

I to put out a trail cam and it came back with minimal deer and many pictures of a mountain lion. Later on the rifle hunt I came across a fresh lion kill of a two point buck. I am sure this has much to do with our deer population. As far as habitat, the area I hunt could hold thousands more deer and never put a dent in the feed. You have a great solution, lets hope the right people can see it and make the adjustments necessary to bring our deer herd back before it is to late.
 
The biggest hurdle that will have to be crossed if anything happens in regard to predator control is political. There are a lot of groups that would fight to stop a program that would use a poison to remove predators. I am not sure if the DWR wants that fight.I believe that they would do it in an instant if it weren't for the political ramifications and possible legal challenges. I believe though, that it is a fight worth having. If we want deer populations to increase it may be the only way it can happen. We can spend millions of dollars of sportsmans license fees on good habitat projects and still not get positive increases in numbers. I believe that ALL big game sportsmans organizations need to ban together to make it happen. If not, we will probably be consigned to the status quo in regards to low deer populations and fewer tags in order to save a few deer.
 
Very well said Nebo!!!


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
Sorry, Nebo, but that is the biggest bunch of BS I have read...no wonder I don't read the stuff on this site!

The reality is that intensive predator control has been tried and tried again on a lot of different units across the western US--including the Henry's--without any detectable notice in increased deer numbers or fawn/doe ratios. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is either ignoring the facts or simply ignorant to the facts.

Any number of studies show this exact thing....and currently, Utah's own collar study is showing the same thing too!

In the latest edition of SFW's magazine The Sportsmen's Voice, there is a pretty good article detailing what has happened so far with the coyote removal study on Monroe Mountain. Although this study is far from over and results are, in no way, final, they are, nevertheless, very interesting.

As you may or may not know, as part of this study, does were captured from their winter range surrounding Monroe Mountain and transmitters were inserted into the vaginas of these does to monitor the survival of their fawns. Interestingly, of the females captured, 98% were pregnant. The mean parturition dates for these females was June 13th and only a handful of fawns were born later than June 18th. During the first year, "survival was not different between the predator removal study area and the control study area." Most interesting, though, are the causes of death among the fawns that did not survive their first 6 months--in the control area there were 15 deaths--2 still births, 9 predation mortalities, 2 died from abandonment, and 2 were chalked up to unknown causes; in the treatment area, there were 14 deaths--5 by predation, 1 by roadkill, 2 by disease, 3 by abandonment, and 3 to unknown causes.

So, what are the results indicating thus far? A couple things: 1) the does are being bred 2) the does are being bred early 3) that predation is mostly compensatory.

To me, the third part is most interesting--in the control area or area with predator removal, predation was the primary cause of death and 9 total fawns were killed by predators. In the treatment area where predator control is being conducted, only 5 fawns were preyed upon. So, what happened to even out the mortality? It appears as if nature "compensated" through roadkill, disease, and abandonment! Even if you chalk up the unknown causes of fawn mortalities to predation, there is a reduced number of fawn mortalities due to predation in the treatment area but similar numbers of total mortalities....

...And the best part.....These studies have already been conducted elsewhere, with similar results. They where done in Idaho in the '90s, where even lion predation was shown to be compensatory. They were done in Colorado in the '90s, where it was shown that coyote predation was compensatory, and that habitat restoration was the only tried method that could increase deer. The study was also done in Wyoming where it was yet again determined that coyote predation on deer was compensatory. Did not keep them from having a coyote bounty program, and then trying to declare victory over nothing.

I have a study in front of me right now, that shows a 260% increase in a deer population, over a 3 year period. And guess what? predator control had nothing to do with it.

Utah sportsmen that believe that Option WTF? or coyote bounties, will increase deer numbers, need to have their collective heads checked.

Mark my words, coyote bounties, and Option WTF? will be touted as being successful in bringing up deer numbers. But I guarantee you that there will be no quantitative, peer reviewed science, to support such claims. And why would these things suddenly work now? We have been cutting hunters for 20 years with no long term increase in deer numbers. And there has never been a shred of scientific evidence to show that coyote predation is additive. Yet Utah sportsmen just keep on, keeping on, with same old, same old.
 
W2U- I believe it has more to do with the Mountain lions than the coyotes. They are the ultimate predator. Especially in areas that have bounding elk populations where the mountain lion can keep thier numbers above the carrying capacity of thier primary deer diet by taking an elk before they will starve.

Also W2U, you failed to recognize studies like the Kiabab study where they killed every predator and the deer population went from 10,000 deer to over 100,000 deer. That is 3 times the carrying capacity! I am from Utah and I definitely believe it to be the predators. I also believe that by taking out just the coyotes, we are providing more feed for the other predators.
 
BeDawg!

You Best get out of SLC once in a while!

Lion Numbers have been reduced in the Book Cliffs & the South Slope for years now!

But Deer Numbers Keep getting lower & lower every Year!

Coyotes are doing way more Damage than Lions in both Units/areas!

How bout Too many Tags being issued in the Book Cliffs?

I never hear too many people Bittcchiing about that?

As I've said many,many,many times!

The U-Tard Deer Herd Ain't coming back!

TARDS/Hunters/UDWR/Poachers won't let em come back!











I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
Thanks Elkassaskissing. I am going to Colorado Sunday to get out of the bubble of SLC. Sounds to me we have alot of cougar lovers here? I mean the kind you hunt and not the ones you kiss. That is OK, everyone has there own opinion. I agree with you that coyotes kill lots of deer. Get over it because I have.

Lions I believe kill at least as many deer and they will not discriminate on size. They wont hesitate to take a big 30 incher long as he is in good ambushing position. I believe the BIGGEST typical to come from the state of Colorado in the record books was killed by a lion. They do damage and we are too blind to recognize it. Lion hunters argue all the time that the lions are not responsible for any damage to the herds and I say BS. I know a rancher that have hired dog runners to SSS with the lions on his property and guess what? The deer came back in bounding numbers on that ranch. But your right, Utah wont do anything about it and our numbers of deer will not get any better.
 
BeDawg!

How many thousands of TARDS Hunt that Ranch each year?

I never said Lions don't eat Deer!

I'm asking you a Question:

A Few Years back,The majority decided "Lions","Lions" and more Lions were decimating the Book Cliffs Deer Herd!

They thinned them Lions out & now the Herd is suffering more than ever,WTH?

So BeDawg,why didn't the Book Cliff Deer Herd rebound?

Ya,there's still a few Lions out there but not even a Fraction of what there was!

Please Splain it!









I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
Ok w2u I will bite.
What is the problem?

Before you respond I will tell you it is not habitat.
I live near Springville, and have for 20 years. I have seen deer numbers decline consistently.
I could once drive the loop and see 100 deer a day....now 5-8 at most!
The habitat has not changed at all...not at all.
What has changed is I now see 100 elk in a day, and 2 coyotes.
 
Elkassasquatch. I live in Utah and I have never stepped one foot onto the Book Cliffs so unlike some who would comment, I will not. I have covered alot of Utah ground in other sectors and someday will get there I am sure. I could blow a bunch of smoke up your a$$ about knowing this and that but frankly am explaining what I know and believe. It just makes sense to me that after they banned poisons, the predator populations increased and we are seeing far less deer than we used too! I know it is far more complex than just predators eating all the animals, but they really do have to kill deer to survive and less predators = less deer being eaten and an increase in deer population.

I do think it interesting that you hate Utahns and place the appearance that you know more about Utah and the "book cliffs" than anyone else. Now I want to ask you a couple questions.

1. Why is the deer population not rebounding on the Book Cliffs or Utah in general? Do you actually believe it is number of hunter tags? They have enough bucks on the BC's and many other places to impregnate the does. Or is it the number of mature bucks you aren't seeing that you want more of.

2. Are you a passionate cougar hunter?
 
one four legged cougar, is one to many''''(is elkassassin passionate ? . now that is a first,,,,, that can be his next handle on here,,,,{passionate kitty}...






9








[






['
 
>Elkassasquatch. I live in Utah and
>I have never stepped one
>foot onto the Book Cliffs
>so unlike some who would
>comment, I will not. I
>have covered alot of Utah
>ground in other sectors and
>someday will get there I
>am sure. I could blow
>a bunch of smoke up
>your a$$ about knowing this
>and that but frankly am
>explaining what I know and
>believe. It just makes sense
>to me that after they
>banned poisons, the predator populations
>increased and we are seeing
>far less deer than we
>used too! I know it
>is far more complex than
>just predators eating all the
>animals, but they really do
>have to kill deer to
>survive and less predators =
>less deer being eaten and
>an increase in deer population.
>
>
>I do think it interesting that
>you hate Utahns and place
>the appearance that you know
>more about Utah and the
>"book cliffs" than anyone else.
>Now I want to ask
>you a couple questions.
>
>1. Why is the deer population
>not rebounding on the Book
>Cliffs or Utah in general?
>Do you actually believe it
>is number of hunter tags?
>They have enough bucks on
>the BC's and many other
>places to impregnate the does.
>Or is it the number
>of mature bucks you aren't
>seeing that you want more
>of.
>
>2. Are you a passionate cougar
>hunter?


No Doubt!

If We could Poison like We once did We'd get rid of most Deer Eaters = Coyotes!

But that Sshhitt Ain't Happening,We might Kill a Magpie,A Crow,HELL SAKES maybe even an Eagle!

I don't HATE U-TARDS,I'm a U-TARD myself,OK,maybe I hate a couple of them!:D

No,I don't know anything,I don't know SQUAT,I know JACK-SHITE!

There's approximately 30 reasons why Mule Deer are not rebounding in Utah,I've said it hundreds of times,I don't just Blame one thing like Most U-TARDS do!

Answer to your Last Question could be a very Long Answer but I'll keep it fairly short!

I Hunted Lions & Bears Hard with a couple of close Friends for over 20 years back in the Day,Glad I done it when I did,Long before every Truck in the Basin had a Dog Box!:D

This Era was long before a 65lb Female Lion was considered a Trophy,We turned Lions Loose & many of them that were way Bigger than most of these PISSCUTTER Lions killed today,We had more Deer back then,WTF?

Passionate?

Had more Damn Fun back then doing it than I'll ever have from here on out!

I Doubt you have a Clue BeDawg of how much Work/Money is put in to a Pack of Dogs & Equipment?

I've been 'HOOKED' by 2 Different Lions over the Years,Passionate?No,Just think back on some of the Events/Fun I had over the Years is UN-REPLACABLE,I Remember the Time me & my Brother Drug a Slightly Wounded Trophy sized Tom out of a Crevice/Cave We could barely get back in to so a Hunter could Finish him off,there were Battle Wounds along the way,Just the way it was!You won't hear me Complain!

'elkun' gets a little growly when He hears about us turning a Lion Loose,I guess you could say He doesn't like the Kitties as much as We do?:D:D:D

What I'm saying BeDawg:

Yes,Lions eat Deer,always have,always will!

They are not Solely gonna Wipe the Deer Herd out!

Just like any other animal/Species,Ain't nothing that gets my Blood Pumpin more than a Huge Tom in a Tree,they are as Rare as 30"+ Bucks these Days!

Add the other 29 Reasons in to the Pool of Reasons Deer Ain't doing so well Be-Dawg in Utah & You'll have it almost figured out,then all You'll have to do is Figure a way to Fix it!

When Lions are Decimated in Utah,what you gonna Blame then?

Ya,The Wolf is on the way,He's gotta beat the UDWR to the Deer & Elk,better Hury!

Any of you took a Close Look at the number of Elk/Antlerless Tags issued in Utah this year?

If Man Ain't the Worst/Biggest Predator then I rest My case!




















I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
w2u-Interesting post. I agree with most of what you posted. Here in Wyoming, the sportsman's group I belong to are currently performing coyote removal in a few select areas. These areas are places that have been recommended to us by WGF. We conduct our removal efforts during fawning season; for about a week or so. 2014 will be our third year of conducting coyote control. All three areas have been experiencing severe deer population drops. Last spring, over 100 coyotes were killed. Dens are also being found and poisoned. In 2012, the control efforts were done a week or two later than 2013. Every single den found in 2012 had deer and antelope fawn carcasses there (as many as up to 7 at one den location). None of those den locations had fewer than 3 carcasses nearby.

We also have donated money to WGF to conduct their own study. This is occurring in another area totally independent of the other 3 we are conducting on our own. The G&F study is animal specific; does that were collared are being specifically targeted in this study. Coyotes that are in close proximity to these specific does are being taken out, rather than all coyotes found randomly killed.

We should be able to garner some meaningful info after the 3rd year of these projects; 5 years will give us better info.

What most people tend to overlook is the fact that when 1080 poison was used many years ago, it didn't just kill coyotes. It killed all carrion-eaters, including eagles and mountain lions, as well as other deer eating species. The shelf life of 1080 has been documented as being 15-20 years or more. This corresponds directly with the comeback of eagles in America. Eagles kill many fawns, too, as do bobcats, etc.

When you consider habitat degradation, drought, habitat encroachment, poaching, elk population increases, and a myriad of other problems, it's pretty tough to just blame predators for deer populations plummeting across the west. However, at this time, I am of the belief that timely and area specific coyote eradication could help in areas where deer populations are struggling. I'm sure you have heard of the "predator pit" theory. Dr Charles Kay( PHD; Utah State University, as well as Valerius Geist; University of Calgary(I think)) subscribe to this theory. "Predator Pit" is the theory that an already depressed ungulate population is kept from regaining numbers by an over-abundance of predators; thus keeping doe/fawn ratios incapable of herd increase. Predator removal seems to help in areas where this occurs; and previous studies have borne this out. However, predator pit areas are definitely not the reason mule deer are declining as a species. It's pretty easy to be an arm-chair biologist. Our numbers are many! ;). Too bad the solutions are so complex.

I'm surprised that UDWR doesn't just lower the objective number. That's the way we do it in Wyoming. :)
 
BeDawg- The biggest typical to come from Colorado is also the world's record, according to B&C. It was killed by Doug Burris, Jr., in 1972.( not a lion). Facts are your friends.
 
HELL SAKES!

Don't you know the Lions Ate all the Big Bucks?

And they do eat 6 a day!:D












I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
Your right I am an arm chair biologist but do have a minor in Biology from USU and have taken Ecology classes that didn't teach me anything but terminology to concepts that I had previously known. It just seems to me that the bias that predators don't matter and thier numbers make no difference in the populations of ungulates is always fought by those who are trying to protect them.
 
dead predators,dont eat anything,,,,,,lions , coyotes. ect,,,,,,you want more deer .kill these sob s, that's the bottom line.
 
>Your right I am an arm
>chair biologist but do have
>a minor in Biology from
>USU and have taken Ecology
>classes that didn't teach me
>anything but terminology to concepts
>that I had previously known.
>It just seems to me
>that the bias that predators
>don't matter and thier numbers
>make no difference in the
>populations of ungulates is always
>fought by those who are
>trying to protect them.


Nobody is sayin Predators are not doing major Damage to the Deer Herd!

But it's just one of the Problems!

Unless your name is elkun!:D

U-Tards are Predators,are they not?












I used to know of places worth Hiking in to for Elk & Deer!
Thanks to Illegal Bastards & the USFS not enforcing Rules you can Zing in to them Places on Wheelers now & not see a Damn thing!
But by GAWD it don't take long for them U-Tards to get there with all the Unethical BS and the New Technology!
 
>dead predators,dont eat anything,,,,,,lions , coyotes.
>ect,,,,,,you want more deer .kill
>these sob s, that's the
>bottom line.


This! I'm going to become a lion hunter.
 
My father in-law ran sheep most of his life and knows a little bit about predators. He said 5 years after poison was banned his predator losses were up 40% and continued to trend upward until he retired 8 years ago. I won't argue which predator causes the most damage, but it's obvious that they are the problem. Most research today has some political stain on it so I'll take 50 yrs. of personal experience any day.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-13 AT 12:41PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-13 AT 12:36?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-13 AT 12:31?PM (MST)

>Sorry, Nebo, but that is the
>biggest bunch of BS I
>have read...no wonder I don't
>read the stuff on this
>site!
>
>The reality is that intensive predator
>control has been tried and
>tried again on a lot
>of different units across the
>western US--including the Henry's--without any
>detectable notice in increased deer
>numbers or fawn/doe ratios. Anyone
>who tries to argue otherwise
>is either ignoring the facts
>or simply ignorant to the
>facts.
>
>Any number of studies show this
>exact thing....and currently, Utah's own
>collar study is showing the
>same thing too!
>
>In the latest edition of SFW's
>magazine The Sportsmen's Voice, there
>is a pretty good article
>detailing what has happened so
>far with the coyote removal
>study on Monroe Mountain. Although
>this study is far from
>over and results are, in
>no way, final, they are,
>nevertheless, very interesting.
>
>As you may or may not
>know, as part of this
>study, does were captured from
>their winter range surrounding Monroe
>Mountain and transmitters were inserted
>into the vaginas of these
>does to monitor the survival
>of their fawns. Interestingly, of
>the females captured, 98% were
>pregnant. The mean parturition dates
>for these females was June
>13th and only a handful
>of fawns were born later
>than June 18th. During the
>first year, "survival was not
>different between the predator removal
>study area and the control
>study area." Most interesting, though,
>are the causes of death
>among the fawns that did
>not survive their first 6
>months--in the control area there
>were 15 deaths--2 still births,
>9 predation mortalities, 2 died
>from abandonment, and 2 were
>chalked up to unknown causes;
>in the treatment area, there
>were 14 deaths--5 by predation,
>1 by roadkill, 2 by
>disease, 3 by abandonment, and
>3 to unknown causes.
>
>So, what are the results indicating
>thus far? A couple things:
>1) the does are being
>bred 2) the does are
>being bred early 3) that
>predation is mostly compensatory.
>
>To me, the third part is
>most interesting--in the control area
>or area with predator removal,
>predation was the primary cause
>of death and 9 total
>fawns were killed by predators.
>In the treatment area where
>predator control is being conducted,
>only 5 fawns were preyed
>upon. So, what happened to
>even out the mortality? It
>appears as if nature "compensated"
>through roadkill, disease, and abandonment!
>Even if you chalk up
>the unknown causes of fawn
>mortalities to predation, there is
>a reduced number of fawn
>mortalities due to predation in
>the treatment area but similar
>numbers of total mortalities....
>
>...And the best part.....These studies have
>already been conducted elsewhere, with
>similar results. They where done
>in Idaho in the '90s,
>where even lion predation was
>shown to be compensatory. They
>were done in Colorado in
>the '90s, where it was
>shown that coyote predation was
>compensatory, and that habitat restoration
>was the only tried method
>that could increase deer. The
>study was also done in
>Wyoming where it was yet
>again determined that coyote predation
>on deer was compensatory. Did
>not keep them from having
>a coyote bounty program, and
>then trying to declare victory
>over nothing.
>
>I have a study in front
>of me right now, that
>shows a 260% increase in
>a deer population, over a
>3 year period. And guess
>what? predator control had nothing
>to do with it.
>
>Utah sportsmen that believe that Option
>WTF? or coyote bounties, will
>increase deer numbers, need to
>have their collective heads checked.
>
>
>Mark my words, coyote bounties, and
>Option WTF? will be touted
>as being successful in bringing
>up deer numbers. But I
>guarantee you that there will
>be no quantitative, peer reviewed
>science, to support such claims.
>And why would these things
>suddenly work now? We have
>been cutting hunters for 20
>years with no long term
>increase in deer numbers. And
>there has never been a
>shred of scientific evidence to
>show that coyote predation is
>additive. Yet Utah sportsmen just
>keep on, keeping on, with
>same old, same old.


So what is your solution. There are other studies that show predator removal is effective in deer survival rates. In one meeting one of the DWR biologists cited a study that showed coyote predation on deer has increased because of decreases in the number of mice, voles etc that are the primary food source for them.The DWR folks have and are trying everything they can to get deer herd numbers increasing. They told us that the coyote removal program would not make any difference in fawn/deer survival rate unless at least 70% of them were removed each year. Reducing tags will certainly help increase buck numbers but doesn't help doe/fawn survival. It may increase the buck/doe ratio measurement but it does not increase doe/fawn numbers. Are you of the opinion that there is very little that can be done to increase survival rates for doe/fawns ? DWR biologist have indicated that if you increase buck numbers that it may result in an over abundance of bucks that will out compete fawns on the winter range forage (not sure I really buy into this one in most areas though). FYI- I have read reports, one from Oregon of fencing and then removing all predators, that saw a large increase in deer numbers in 3-4 years. I think that we need to realize that Big Game permit money provides the major portion of the DWR budget. It enables them to pay for all Big Game management as well as the majority of the other programs they are in charge of. It is the only program within the DWR that pays for itself. Without that money all the other programs will suffer immensely.Big Game hunters pay the bills more than anyone else.
I just don't see any other way at this time to improve deer numbers, than reduce the predation by wild predators. The deer pie is only so big. Each mortality cause takes it piece- cougar, bear, coyote, weather, disease, highways, hunters etc. Somehow we need to reduce the take of the animal that causes the most damage to the growth sector-- which is -- does. Hunters do not as a rule now affect doe numbers through hunting (except in some very specific areas). Wild predators don't care if its a male or female they kill and eat- its just food to them.They seem to be the biggest factor in limiting herd growth because they eat and kill animals in the growth sector of the pie. We need to focus on the areas that we can make a difference in deer survival and thus increased herd numbers. More deer=more bucks-- pretty simple.By the way-- according to the DWR-- you are dead wrong about the Henry's, predator removal made a huge difference in its comeback.
 
Deer Slayer,

I also have property in Panorama Woods. About 50 Acres, right on the national forest boarder. This year was the worst year, in the 20 yrs we have owned the land, that I have ever seen. There are three of us that own 150 acres fenced off. We all had the same experience. Would you be willing to email me a pic. of the Wolf... I would love to see it. I also had a camera up on the mountain and had some bear and cougar pics. The predators are destroying the heard of both elk and deer.
 
My two cents worth. You need look no furthur than antelope island. They have a program where birth control laced meat is placed for preditors. This is a temporary birth control which helps them to keep their numbers in check.This is given based on the animal populations they prey on from year to year.
I find it interesting they control the preditor populations and not habitat changes to control the deer and antelope populations.
Why not use this practice in other areas of the state based on populations?
 
fishinfool-- I have not heard of that practice on antelope island. I know there are plenty of coyotes out there. Perhaps it is a practice that could be used in some areas without having to kill the predators. Very interesting option. Thanks
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-13 AT 07:17PM (MST)[p]How about some xylitol laced meat? It will only harm K9s. Snopes says as little as 3 grams can kill a 65 lb dog. That would function as birth control also.
 

Similar threads

J
Mule Deer and CWD
Replies
45
Views
2k
HIcountryman
HIcountryman
V
Looking for a great mule deer unit in Colorado for youth (my son) with 5 points (last year as a youth)
Replies
4
Views
1k
VWiddi1
V
F
1.8 Satisfaction rate for Thousand Lakes
Replies
34
Views
2k
SS!
SS!

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

P1010461.JPG
AC475F62-5720-4DF2-909B-BACDD5EF0A5F.jpeg
234.JPG
Huge Bull Elk
A5D813C3-2C3F-4AE2-8F4E-F4F96B08CBBD.jpeg
D28914A3-D2F9-4517-A087-DDD0797E78B5.jpeg
20210930_181334.jpg
96512CF4-19CE-490F-A369-DC4EF391D75A.jpeg
oregon_record_cascade_roosevelt_elk.jpg
Buck.jpg
CAFD11F4-032F-4C5B-B58F-D256C53F78C0.jpeg
20877.jpeg
Back
Top Bottom