Explain 2015 Antler Growth

Ticks N Tines

Ticks N Tines

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Many of us thought that this was going to be a banner year for antler growth. We had a very mild winter in 2014-2015 and a nice wet spring in 2015. There was plenty of grass and excellent feed in the high country. I had a Wyoming region G tag and witnessed firsthand that there was excellent feed/water all through the summer. The deer stayed very healthy and they arrived to the winter range heathly as well.

So far, I have documented 13 mature bucks that have returned once again to the winter range (From Region G). Only 2 of the 12 bucks have larger antlers. One only gained mass, the other gained a bit of length. One of the bucks is 10+ years old, so I didn't expect him to get bigger. However, his 9th year was his biggest year (Prime?). The other bucks are nearly identical or lost mass/length. I realize that age also plays a part with some of these bucks. However, I have heard a few ideas about why this was acutally NOT a banner year for growth.

Can any of you experts elaborate on this? I'm interested in hearing thoughts from you old timers that have been up and down the mountian a few times and seen a lot of mule deer.

I won't post comparisons of all the bucks I have seen, but here's one interesting pic. One would think this is a young buck with plenty of growing to do. Yet, he came back identical. Strange...
69533ptbuck.jpg


I think this could be a good discussion. What are everyone's thoughts?

Thanks,
HJB
 
Here's a buck that I have not found again this year. However, the last three years in a row, he has remained exactly the same with just a few inches gained/lost here and there. The conditions don't seem to matter to this buck. Interesting...
6428curlybuck.jpg
 
Seems like bucks plateau in their antler growth and then decline. The past 5 years have been similar for antler growing conditions so there is not much change in mature bucks from year to year. Now if we saw a hard winter followed by an easy winter then there could be a change in antler growth. If this winter keeps going how it has started then next year will see reduced antler growth.

The first photo shows and older buck that has hit his high. The second post shows a buck that hit his potential and plateaued. Not every buck continues to grow more inches year after year.
 
For the high country, I have heard that the feed is not as nutrient dense during wet years. Basically, the buck gets full and gets the calories, but not as many minerals, etc. to grow antlers. I'm not an expert, but it seems to make sense to me.
 
There are a lot of factors that hit deer. And not all of them at the same time. These are all individuals and thinking we can determine or nail down their good years by watching the weatherman is silliness. Mild winters can introduce a whole other chapter of stresses upon a deer herd in the form of parasites. Plus you can have spikes in population which actually makes those deer compete more for food and introduces more stress into their lives. Then you can actually have an age class who originated in a high stress period. Meaning the first year of their life there may have been some extreme weather or biological stress pressed onto the herd which will effect them their entire lives.

Me personally I don't get real excited for antler or horn development unless I can see at least four straight good years with a herd that has been managed to stay at or below its carrying capacity. Even then I am not surprised when the deer don't shape up as well as I hoped.
 
Carrying capacity... Up yours. There isn't a range in the west that's at carrying capacity. Most herds are managed for worst case scenario's. That killer winter that might come around every 10 years. Herds should be managed optimistically, for average winters. When a tough winter comes along and wipes out the deer it's not because carrying capacity was too high. Deer numbers are on the low, low scale of long term averages. Don't buy this crap about carrying capacity until herd numbers get closer to a true carrying capacity. This is an excuse to allow more tag sales, more $, and piss poor management practices.
 
Low Snow/Water Accumulations were mighty Low Early this Spring around here!

They got off to a Poor Start!

Then a Month & a Half later We started getting a fair amount of Moisture!

But the Green Goods showed up late!

You can't Pressure Game Herds 7 Months out of the Year & ever end up with anything!






"I'm Living & Dieing with the Choices
I've made!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=N8i5NLyXZdc
 
Not every buck will grow to 200+, just like people won't grow to the size of shaqueal o'neal if we eat more or live long enough...
Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
>Not every buck will grow to
>200+

I realize every buck will not grow 200". The discussion was focused more on the effects of the weather patterns on antler growth. Several hunters make posts every spring concerned that antler growth will be terrible because we didn't get any snow/rain. However, some of these pictures show otherwise. Infact, on some of the years we thought the growth would be the best, several bucks went down hill.

Here's some more comparisons just for fun.
8387rudolf.jpg

6291topper.jpg

6581popeiii.jpg
 
HJB very good post and pictures. I'm more of the opinion that weather and antler growth don't play as big of a role as many lead on. I think there are many factors, genetics being one of the bigger ones. Good genetics and age is a serious recipe for big bucks.
 
Here's a buck that had some very cool growth over the years. In 2012 we picked up this buck's sheds. He was just a 160ish buck with a cool double eye guard. In 2013 he came back to the range and was easy to recognize with the double eye guard. He grew up quite a bit and added height and width. The next year he came back a little smaller but had more mass. He lost the double eye guard. Then the next year he just blew up! He added a huge drop tine and some big cheaters. This year he was harvested and went back to his 2014 frame. I would say he was 7-8 years old when harvested. What factors created that huge drop tine for just the one year? All his other years he had no indication of a dropper at all. Strange....
5062kickstand.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-15 AT 12:44PM (MST)[p]The buck above that was harvested was most likely 4, 5, 6, and killed at 7yo in those photos. So he was still maturing in his antler growth the first few years. There is no dispute that weather plays a factor in antler growth. In non-desert areas hard winters are a contributor to poor antler growth the following year. In the desert drought reduces antler growth. Dramatic changes in antler growth in Wyoming have not been seen because the weather patterns have not been that much different for the past 5 years.
 
I'm a firm believer that hot and dry is way better for horn growth than wet and green.

This year it was hot and dry in June and wet and cold in July when it should have been the peak of growing season.

All the bull elk around here have giant thirds from the dry and hot conditions we had in May and June. Then it started to rain and when they had to use all their energy staying warm up high during July their horn growth died off. You can see it plain as day.

The deer grow differently than elk, but it was basically the same thing and all the top ends of bucks in the high country of northern Utah and Wyoming finished out poorly.

Just my $0.02

Cheers,
Pete
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-15 AT 02:16PM (MST)[p]Im no expert, but i believe Genetics has more to do with horn growth than feed. To me i see good feed, i think fat healthy deer. I then hope to find an old mature buck to hunt. If feed is THE factor of horn growth, then i think we'd see more field bucks with amazing horns. These deer live on the mountain eat the right kind of nutrients for big horns, then at night go down to the alfalfa buffet and eat like kings. Less stress competition, alfalfa even in drought years is always getting watered. These deer dont grow any more inches of horns because of the feed. I havent seen it. Ive seen big bucks that grew up in and around alfalfa, but i never thought they must only be big cause they eat good.
 
Genetics is probably the number one factor in my experiences, but it takes all three levels to produce great quality deer(Genetics, feed, water).
I don't have any before and after pictures to show for what I have seen, but where I hunt for instance, we were at a drought in Colorado for many years and the majority of all bucks were 140-150ish. Every year my buddies and I would say, "That buck will be 160ish next year" well next year came and the same recognizable bucks grew maybe 2-4" at best. This went on for nearly 7 years until the 100 year flood happened and all of a sudden 170-180 bucks were everywhere, small bucks from one year to the next grew substantially with the moisture.
They didn't all have the best genetics but the noticeable tine lengths and mass were apparent because of the rain and with it came greener and healthier feed.
If your family is short, more than likely (not in all cases)you're going to be short, it's genetics.
There's areas where nutrition and water is low all year round but the bucks are just brutally big and that there is why genetics is number one.
 
>>Not every buck will grow to
>>200+
>
>I realize every buck will not
>grow 200". The discussion was
>focused more on the effects
>of the weather patterns on
>antler growth. Several hunters make
>posts every spring concerned that
>antler growth will be terrible
>because we didn't get any
>snow/rain. However, some of these
>pictures show otherwise. Infact, on
>some of the years we
>thought the growth would be
>the best, several bucks went
>down hill.
>

That is what I was referring to, those bucks were already maxed out with their genetic potential. Even with the easy winter, and wet summer/spring they didn't grow much or were the same. In those instances the genetics was the limiting factor.
The one where it blew up one year then went back down the next he was possibly past his prime. He could have also had a long hard "rut" went into winter very weak, barely made it and spent most of his energy building his body back up vs into antler growth. Hard to say.
Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
Winter 2012-13
Winter 2013-14
Winter 2014-15
Winter 2015-16

The kickstand buck obviously didn't make it to 2016, I should have kicked the dates back one. That's what he would have looked like in the winter of 2015-2016. He will just be in a cozy house this winter instead of out in the cold.
 
I have found that good horn years are often the result of tough hunting conditions the year or years leading up to the good horn year.

I have also found that genetics is far more important than nutrition. I have been following deer around like you for 30 years and have only seen two or three years that weather conditions have negatively effected antler growth.

Most bucks antlers grow rapidly until the age of about 6 and then stay close to the same for up to 6 more years and then often there is a decline. Once that buck starts to decline most don't live to grow another set.
 
I don't know much about antler growth or the factors involved, but I know I love looking at these comparisons. Thanks for sharing!
 
>Genetics is probably the number one
>factor in my experiences, but
>it takes all three levels
>to produce great quality deer(Genetics,
>feed, water).
>I don't have any before and
>after pictures to show for
>what I have seen, but
>where I hunt for instance,
>we were at a drought
>in Colorado for many years
>and the majority of all
>bucks were 140-150ish. Every year
>my buddies and I would
>say, "That buck will be
>160ish next year" well next
>year came and the same
>recognizable bucks grew maybe 2-4"
>at best. This went on
>for nearly 7 years until
>the 100 year flood happened
>and all of a sudden
>170-180 bucks were everywhere, small
>bucks from one year to
>the next grew substantially with
>the moisture.
>They didn't all have the best
>genetics but the noticeable tine
>lengths and mass were apparent
>because of the rain and
>with it came greener and
>healthier feed.
>If your family is short, more
>than likely (not in all
>cases)you're going to be short,
>it's genetics.
>There's areas where nutrition and water
>is low all year round
>but the bucks are just
>brutally big and that there
>is why genetics is number
>one.

+1 for this logic
We have seen 20 bucks in a day up high in the mountains of Colorado feeding on the wet green feed. Nothing big though. Then we go down to the low deserts and see a giant buck feeding on dry feed thats bigger than all of bucks we saw up on the mountains. So I agree that genetics is the number one factor.
 
Some things that may play into a small part of antler growth is if predators made a certain animal burn more calories decreasing their fitness or antler growth that year. Also what if something like energy development change the animals migration route or took away a higher quality summer/winter feeding area for a deer? Lots of factors can change antler growth.
 
>Here's a buck that I have
>not found again this year.
>However, the last three years
>in a row, he has
>remained exactly the same with
>just a few inches gained/lost
>here and there. The conditions
>don't seem to matter to
>this buck. Interesting...
>
6428curlybuck.jpg


Finally found him again this year. He is considerably smaller this year:
1623curly.jpg
 
Found this buck over the weekend. He lost a bunch of inches as well. That makes about 20 bucks I have seen come back this year. At least 17 of them came back with smaller racks.
1872splitearbuck.jpg
 
Maybe 2015 was a banner year for horn growth and they just came back normal this year? Awesome awesome photos, thanks for posting them.
 
>>Here's a buck that I have
>>not found again this year.
>>However, the last three years
>>in a row, he has
>>remained exactly the same with
>>just a few inches gained/lost
>>here and there. The conditions
>>don't seem to matter to
>>this buck. Interesting...
>>
6428curlybuck.jpg

>
>Finally found him again this year.
>He is considerably smaller this
>year:
>
1623curly.jpg


I don't agree with 2015 and 2016 being the same buck. the 2016 buck has no scar or resemblance of a scar on his face.
his throat patch doesn't look the same either.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
Bucks that summer in the high country are less likely to have big swings in antler growth. There is always a ton of feed up high even in dry years. Deer that live lower or in desert country will have better antler growth from wetter conditions.
 
>>>Here's a buck that I have
>>>not found again this year.
>>>However, the last three years
>>>in a row, he has
>>>remained exactly the same with
>>>just a few inches gained/lost
>>>here and there. The conditions
>>>don't seem to matter to
>>>this buck. Interesting...
>>>
6428curlybuck.jpg

>>
>>Finally found him again this year.
>>He is considerably smaller this
>>year:
>>
1623curly.jpg

>
>I don't agree with 2015 and
>2016 being the same buck.
>the 2016 buck has no
>scar or resemblance of a
>scar on his face.
>his throat patch doesn't look the
>same either.
>
>Mntman
>
>"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
>

I goofed up on this buck this year. I though the "2016" pic was him, but it's not. This buck actually came back bigger this year, he looks pretty good.
 
>I goofed up on this buck
>this year. I though the
>"2016" pic was him, but
>it's not. This buck actually
>came back bigger this year,
>he looks pretty good.

still cool to see pics, thanks

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
I've always leaned towards genetics being the biggest factor. Really interesting that 17/20 would be smaller this year though, I doubt that many of them are old enough to be truly regressing. Which would lead me to believe that weather, etc. have some impact.

Either way, this is pretty cool documentation. Well done.
 
>I've always leaned towards genetics being
>the biggest factor. Really
>interesting that 17/20 would be
>smaller this year though, I
>doubt that many of them
>are old enough to be
>truly regressing. Which would
>lead me to believe that
>weather, etc. have some impact.
>
>
>Either way, this is pretty cool
>documentation. Well done.

The three factors influencing antler growth in order of importance is:

1. age
2. nutrition
3. genetics

ClearCreek
 
genetics is far more important than nutrition.
A mature buck with top end genetics will still grow a great set of antlers even in the worst of years. A mature buck with poor genetics will grow a poor set of antlers in the best of years.
 
>genetics is far more important than
>nutrition.
>A mature buck with top end
>genetics will still grow a
>great set of antlers even
>in the worst of years.
>A mature buck with poor
>genetics will grow a poor
>set of antlers in the
>best of years.

antlerradar:

All the research done is counter to your line of thought.

ClearCreek
 
There is not just one variable. Genes are first. Then comes weather/food these have a lot to do with each other. in arizona we had a large volumes of rain in areas and i saw huge growth in a lot of the deer that we have been seeing. My friend got a great deer this year that he has been chasing for 4 years and the difference has been noticeable each year. 2014 winter he had one more point but the length and mass made him bigger this year. both years we had good rain the difference was when the rain came. 2015 was a wet winter and spring im guessing that the food growth started earlier which provides vitamins and nutrient in the early growth.
 

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